Opinion on Grey Knights?

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
theZJ
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Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby theZJ » Tue 16 Jun, 2020 12:14 am

Alright I'm gonna keep this one brief. I'm mostly just curious about what people think of the balance of Grey Knights in their current state.
The reason I'm asking is because I feel like they are overperforming, especially in 3v3 situations, and doubly so when they get to spam Terminators.
So I'm wondering: Just my imagination?
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Re: Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby Impregnable » Tue 16 Jun, 2020 6:30 am

theZJ wrote:Alright I'm gonna keep this one brief. I'm mostly just curious about what people think of the balance of Grey Knights in their current state.
The reason I'm asking is because I feel like they are overperforming, especially in 3v3 situations, and doubly so when they get to spam Terminators.
So I'm wondering: Just my imagination?

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LOCALgHOST
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Re: Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby LOCALgHOST » Tue 16 Jun, 2020 11:51 am

theZJ wrote:Alright I'm gonna keep this one brief. I'm mostly just curious about what people think of the balance of Grey Knights in their current state.
The reason I'm asking is because I feel like they are overperforming, especially in 3v3 situations, and doubly so when they get to spam Terminators.
So I'm wondering: Just my imagination?


they are deadly but can be properly countered. What is your exact concern?

i mean there are some guides to answer the threats. Like u get BroCaptain (BC) - u need DPS and disablers (like vs Tyrant or Boss) so u go setup-teams + ranged + something like APO bolter, Kustomshoota for boss and so on.

you face a lot of stormtroopers = go AOE (grenades/flamers are supergood)

you see eversor - some counter melee needed - like shotguns/supression/plasma

Demon hunter is a tough guy but u still can kill him directly :)

The one of the pains is their globals and Vindicare (Vindi dies from jumpy troops and heavy ranged like Dread AC. Also PC/FC fist on retreat is good. Other OM threats are counterable.

OM is VERY power-dependant race so u need to control their powerfarms or u face dread burning your gens or triple plasma from rhino on your squads...
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Re: Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby Hutsy » Tue 16 Jun, 2020 1:41 pm

I'd agree with Local - like everything else, there are hard and soft counters against each of the build types you can go for with GK and he's given a very good overview.

Turrets and Heavy Weapon Teams were a BIG shut down if positioned well, as there wasn't much for GK to take them on with directly / efficiently. Now the Interceptors are T1, that helps with that, but it's only like facing any jump troop / burrow strike.

Re: Terminators. Since 2.9.2 (I believe), GK can only build 1 of each variant (Paladins were always limited to 1) and Paladins are exclusive to BC. I don't know how true it is but I hear people say GK Terminators (non-Paladins) are not as good as SM ones.

On top of Local mentioning them being fairly power-hungry - they get a lot of utility from Energy too, so if you're able to drain energy via Wargear or abilities, that will help take the sting out of some things.
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Re: Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby ... » Tue 16 Jun, 2020 3:46 pm

Terminator spam is impossible.

Grey Knight Terminator is limited to one, and Paladin can only be summoned by Brother-Captain. (Paladin also has a limit of one.)

In addition, producing two terminators at a fast timing must protect the generator from the enemy's offensive with less force. This is a high risk build.
(If you come out late, there is no meaning because the counter of the terminator is ready)
theZJ
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Re: Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby theZJ » Tue 16 Jun, 2020 6:37 pm

I sometimes struggle to put my finger on it, but I feel like their strength, especially in 3v3, boils down to three things:
1. They get to have very little bleed with many builds while inflicting heavy bleed on most non-HI races. This effect multiplies as mobility becomes less important and with increasing army size
2. Many of their units are pretty low maintenance, allowing them to perform better on average. Remember, a unit's skill ceiling and potential isn't worth much if noone is reliably able to harness it.
3. Their late game involves many units which are immensely hard to counter, most importantly though their terminators, against which there are very few efficient answers.

Maybe they have a weakness against vehicles due to their few AV options besides going melee? But then I feel like many vehicles don't really dish out sufficient DPS. The above points are just theories - I've just been thinking about this since I've almost always seen games vs OM go down a similar road, and I've seen many good OM players abuse the advantages outlined above in 3v3. Again, I know much less about 1v1, and I'd imagine their rather low mobility to be much more of an issue there. But, I think it's pretty safe to say that 3v3 might just be way more popular than 1v1, so it's balance should never be a lesser concern.
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Re: Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby LOCALgHOST » Wed 17 Jun, 2020 6:03 am

Hutsy wrote: I don't know how true it is but I hear people say GK Terminators (non-Paladins) are not as good as SM ones.

they just play different role. OM termies are amasing in terms of close combat - like BloodLetters on steroids.

Hutsy wrote:
On top of Local mentioning them being fairly power-hungry - they get a lot of utility from Energy too, so if you're able to drain energy via Wargear or abilities, that will help take the sting out of some things.


there are no such power which can drain OM enough, just forget it :) with all that strike/global/regen energy buffing things
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Re: Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby LOCALgHOST » Wed 17 Jun, 2020 6:12 am

theZJ wrote:1. They get to have very little bleed with many builds while inflicting heavy bleed on most non-HI races.

wrooong. OM rather get huge model bleed on IST or req bleed on their HI. Also i figured out that there is no point to go mass HI builds due to HUGE UPKEEP. Or we talking about a lack of skill.


>>2. Many of their units are pretty low maintenance,

OM got too many abilities man, when army reaches significant size it becomes harder to maintain.

>>3. Their late game involves many units which are immensely hard to counter, most importantly though their terminators, against which there are very few efficient answers.

melee walkers and plasma damage/tanks works well against them. walkers are the direct counter to any termies. i even remember i kick ass of chaos termies with razor and plasma tacs :)
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Re: Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby Hutsy » Wed 17 Jun, 2020 11:16 am

LOCALgHOST wrote:
Hutsy wrote: I don't know how true it is but I hear people say GK Terminators (non-Paladins) are not as good as SM ones.

they just play different role. OM termies are amasing in terms of close combat - like BloodLetters on steroids.

Hutsy wrote:
On top of Local mentioning them being fairly power-hungry - they get a lot of utility from Energy too, so if you're able to drain energy via Wargear or abilities, that will help take the sting out of some things.


there are no such power which can drain OM enough, just forget it :) with all that strike/global/regen energy buffing things


Yeah, I quite like OM Termies. Particularly like the teleport charge which can be pretty potent.

Re: Energy - good point :) Especially with the Land Raider also being an energy regen option. I like to try and keep a Conversion Beamer fairly close during late game to help with that quicker regen for the snare ability.
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Re: Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby LOCALgHOST » Wed 17 Jun, 2020 12:37 pm

Hutsy wrote:Yeah, I quite like OM Termies. Particularly like the teleport charge which can be pretty potent.


it's just imba :)
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Re: Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby ... » Wed 17 Jun, 2020 2:16 pm

LOCALgHOST wrote:
Hutsy wrote:Yeah, I quite like OM Termies. Particularly like the teleport charge which can be pretty potent.


it's just imba :)


Grey Knight Terminator has a low melee dps despite being a Tier 3 unit.

and Also, due to a fairly old patch, the psycanon has been removed and has no anti-vehicle abilities.

Therefore, there is not enough ground to see it as imba.

Rather, Grey Knight Terminator and Paladin's Teleport ability's energy expenditure must be removed.
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Re: Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby theZJ » Wed 17 Jun, 2020 7:29 pm

... wrote:
LOCALgHOST wrote:
Hutsy wrote:Yeah, I quite like OM Termies. Particularly like the teleport charge which can be pretty potent.


it's just imba :)


Grey Knight Terminator has a low melee dps despite being a Tier 3 unit.

and Also, due to a fairly old patch, the psycanon has been removed and has no anti-vehicle abilities.

Therefore, there is not enough ground to see it as imba.

Rather, Grey Knight Terminator and Paladin's Teleport ability's energy expenditure must be removed.


This isn't funny, not even as a joke.

All terminators already pose a significant balancing challenge in team games. I'm pretty sure you specifically are aware of this because I've seen you abuse Terminator Spam as GK BC in multiple games and to great effect. You should be acutely aware of how powerful they are already. Now, allowing them more leverage in using their abilities doesn't strike me as much of an issue *if* their larger power issues are addressed first.

Using melee walkers to counter them is an interesting idea which I'll definitely try in one of my next games. I'm usually very wary of walkers in team games because most of them just tend to die in the first clash you don't win and they're a pretty big investment.
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Re: Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby PianoMan » Wed 17 Jun, 2020 8:13 pm

gk are fine, need more units if anything
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Re: Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby ... » Wed 17 Jun, 2020 9:00 pm

well, If you think so, prove it by playing a 3v3 game with Brother-Captain.

If proven to "seriously" break the 3v3 balance, Even if the 1v1 balance is somewhat broken, there is a possibility that it will be patched.

Elite mod aims for a 1v1 game balance. If you want something to be patched, you can prove it. and you have the right to speak.

This is the rule here,
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Re: Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby theZJ » Wed 17 Jun, 2020 9:29 pm

... wrote:well, If you think so, prove it by playing a 3v3 game with Brother-Captain.

If proven to "seriously" break the 3v3 balance, Even if the 1v1 balance is somewhat broken, there is a possibility that it will be patched.

Elite mod aims for a 1v1 game balance. If you want something to be patched, you can prove it. and you have the right to speak.

This is the rule here,

I'd prefer it if you engaged with my arguments. I firmly believe everyone has the right to speak in these forums and your elitist attempt to silence anyone who might not fully agree with you speaks for itself.

Regarding the 1v1 balance argument: Completely ignoring 3v3 balance seems to completely bypass the actual reality of large swathes of the player base. 3v3 remains one of the most popular, if not the most popular format. Adding to that is the fact that 3v3 balance has in fact quite directly informed numerous balance decisions in the elite mods past. Or are you going to tell me that things like D-Cannon nerfs were due to their immense power in 1v1?
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Re: Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby ... » Wed 17 Jun, 2020 10:16 pm

I also prefer 3v3 games, but i just told 'reality'.

As I said earlier, you can prove it yourself.

If you really want to be a patch, prove it yourself and convince the creators. (As a way to prove, you can play the game and upload a replay or video.)

Nothing changes, only word

So, I really want you to prove it. I believe you.

p.s - In a game that aims for 1v1 balance, it is impossible to achieve a perfect 3v3 game balance.

The best way would be to separate the balance between individual and team matches, but technically impossible.
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Re: Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby Torpid » Thu 18 Jun, 2020 1:01 am

theZJ wrote: Or are you going to tell me that things like D-Cannon nerfs were due to their immense power in 1v1?


Well, actually...

I started arguing for d-cannon nerfs after playing as tyranids vs giddolo's warp spider exarch who was fast teching always vs me and he rushed 2 d-cannons which wiped my venom brood literally instantly from the fog of war from my perspective on fedrid folley. The way they also sniped out tanks which are so vital in the elite mod 1v1 scene meta... Pretty ridiculous.

Most of Elite mod history has not given a damn about 3v3 or the wider playerbase. Historically Elite was a mod for hardcore competitive players, hence the name Elite. More recently the direction has changed, but only in the past 2-3years. Even then doing anything to address 3v3 balance is quite contentious since it inevitably does also have some kind of effect on 1v1.
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Re: Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby PianoMan » Thu 18 Jun, 2020 7:55 am

GK are hilariously awful in 3v3s, what are you guys on about
shitty t1 that either makes you overinvest and force your teammates into poverty and even then you're baselocked by either infiltration, jump squads or a decent melee army with a setup team
t2 that solves everything but costs way more than you can afford unless your opponents are complete imbeciles
and a t3 without predators aka the best unit in the game if you have more than 2 fingers

also how does anyone struggle with beating terminators, all you have to do is abuse the fact that your units have retreat and they don't, you dont have to win every fucking engagement, just chip them down and eventually take them down, you dont have to do it all at once lol
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Re: Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby saltychipmunk » Fri 19 Jun, 2020 1:00 pm

I would wager it is because terminator spam comes when it might not be practical to give ground all the time in an effort to "chip away"

that is the main reason people get those beef cake t3 units and tanks. They may not retreat well. but they will generally outlast anything else.

Plus not every race has an equally effective counter built into their build order.

Sure it is easy for say space marines to melt heavy infantry and super heavy infantry simply because the tac squad is so good.
But races like eldar either have to take a gamble on trading with melee units like a seer council or banshees or they have to buy a dark reaper spam. Both can work well, but neither are ideal.
And chaos honestly has not been good at this since inferno bolts got shit on. (side note it is rather horrifying how massive the gap in effectiveness there is between a properly supported tactical marine squad and a properly supported chaos marine squad).

Alas I do kind of agree. Gk is good in 1v1 early, but once ranged blobs , arty lines or t3 tank spams start.. they are kind of shit.

jump units in general are not good in 3v3 and interceptors are pretty weak as is. Strikes are pretty much unfair against races with lots of infantry and nearly worthless against races with an actual heavy infantry line unit. purgs are pretty much the least efficient thing i have ever seen when upgraded. mono model hero units are already hard to use in 3s but the vindicator assassin is so easy to lose with a moment of bad micro. And inquisitorial storm troopers bleed too easy for the amount of investment they demand.
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Re: Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby LOCALgHOST » Fri 19 Jun, 2020 8:54 pm

saltychipmunk wrote:jump units in general are not good in 3v3 and interceptors are pretty weak as is. Strikes are pretty much unfair against races with lots of infantry and nearly worthless against races with an actual heavy infantry line unit. purgs are pretty much the least efficient thing i have ever seen when upgraded. mono model hero units are already hard to use in 3s but the vindicator assassin is so easy to lose with a moment of bad micro. And inquisitorial storm troopers bleed too easy for the amount of investment they demand.


LTP man :) all the things you say are wrong. Strikes are good VS HI, purgs are real imba :) even when upgraded :) especially with DH; VINDICARE is a hell for walkers or t2 vechicles. Real hell. Inquisitorial ST are super strong when used properly.
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Re: Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby LOCALgHOST » Fri 19 Jun, 2020 8:58 pm

PianoMan wrote:gk are fine, need more units if anything
localghost is trash
hutsy is a filthy bug abuser


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Re: Opinion on Grey Knights?

Postby Rostam » Tue 23 Jun, 2020 7:13 pm

I know it might not be like the balance and all; but isnt it cool to give the eversor assassin a vindicare drop?
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