Grav Gun

Elite (and related) releases.
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Santos
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Grav Gun

Postby Santos » Tue 15 Apr, 2014 7:35 pm

Hey guys, 8-)

Here's a little model I've made myself for testing purposes. Texture needs a little bit more work, to make it look more like Relic's stuff, but other than that it's quite complete.

Image
Image

And here's my attempt at making some FX for it. I couldn't find any reliable info on how this thing should fire, so just made that up. :lol:

Image

I'm willing to put some more work into it, if you can find any use for this model...
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Orkfaeller
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Orkfaeller » Tue 15 Apr, 2014 7:36 pm

Hell yeah, more toys for the Techmarine.

Paaaleaaase, someone, anyone, put this in :,l

Edit: but what role could it fulfill? The wiki says its supposed to be used agains Heavy Infantry buildings and Vehicles, but that allready overlaps with the Plasma Gun and the Melta Gun.

It also mentiones that it can be used to stun / knock out targets.

Maybe some kind of void ray gun? That does more damage the longer its fireing on a single target, also slowing it in the process?
Last edited by Orkfaeller on Tue 15 Apr, 2014 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby fankater » Tue 15 Apr, 2014 7:41 pm

Looks sexy 8-)
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Torpid » Tue 15 Apr, 2014 8:08 pm

Replacement for the melta gun, dealing continuous damage (rather than burst damage) but better damage (with no FOTM) and possibly longer range. The melta gun is such an awkward weapon and generally is pretty subpar. I honestly wouldn't mind the above. Thoughts people?

It could even have an ability technically, would be so cool and actually have some balance utility.
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Atlas » Tue 15 Apr, 2014 8:16 pm

I would actually love to see this over the Meltagun yeah. Don't know any special rules or whatever but it just looks kickass.
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 15 Apr, 2014 8:20 pm

Grav guns deal damage according to the armor of the enemy.
The heavier the armor, the more damage it does. It isn't a straight up AV weapon.
As the name suggests it uses gravity against the enemy.

It's a common upgrade in the tabletop now. Almost anyone can take it.


The meltagun does an awesome job. No need to remove it.
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby BaptismByLoli » Tue 15 Apr, 2014 8:23 pm

Torpid's suggestion + Orbs will make the TM a painful source if AV and along with Mark Target, he's gonna be a pain to SHI who I believe take extra Melta Damage.

However, removing the FOTM can be a bit painful since all vehicles can outrun a TM and unless he can place an orb or get behind the vehicle via Razorback etc he wont be doing much to the vehicle and may as well shoot other range infantry.

Hmm, come to think of it, Lascannon and/or Melta Bomb combo can slow the Vehicle down enough for an Orb to maybe get a shot in.

Either way it'll force players to really be wary of TM's if this suggestion were to be implanted.

End of the day though I feel that a Melta Gun isnt really in need of a replacement/change like the Consecrated Bolter. If you want to reskin the Melta Gun into a Grav Gun go ahead but I'm happy with the Melta Gun in it's current state.

Well, that's my thoughts about it. Can't wait to see the many flaws in my logic that people will point out ^^

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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Indrid » Tue 15 Apr, 2014 8:30 pm

200/50 T3 medium range anti-everything weapon, with so-so accuracy vs infantry. Reduces his speed because of the weight or something. Perhaps with a mini-singularity effect ability? Since it uses gravity.

Awesome model anyhow.
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 15 Apr, 2014 8:32 pm

It doesn't have to be limited to the TM btw.
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Tue 15 Apr, 2014 9:00 pm

Maybe could be used as crowd control weapon, with a speed debuff which is stronger if the objective have HI/SHI armour?

I mean, for pure vs all damage weapon the Techmarine have the Meltagun.
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Torpid » Tue 15 Apr, 2014 9:13 pm

I'm just hesitant to cause the aesthetic weirdness that would occur if the TM was the only hero to have 5 weapons.

Want to add it as a t3 upgrade for tacs but that would have the same problem and I don't really want it to be an upgrade to sterns.
Last edited by Torpid on Tue 15 Apr, 2014 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Helios » Tue 15 Apr, 2014 9:13 pm

Very impressive. Too bad SM is getting all this love and not the other factions. Tyranids are especially devoid of anything new with the exception of the DoM. At least sterling's mordian iron guard looks pretty badass.
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 15 Apr, 2014 10:05 pm

Helios wrote: Tyranids are especially devoid of anything new with the exception of the DoM.
Reworks of wargears? (granted that all races got this) Endless swarm?
Capillary towers? Rework of "Without numbers"? Tried to have T3 leaders, etc?
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby sterling » Tue 15 Apr, 2014 11:49 pm

I think this should, at the very least, act as a replacement for the melta, even if the stats remain the same.

Great model and great work, would seem stupid not to include it somehow.
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Lt. Ekul » Wed 16 Apr, 2014 5:54 am

Helios wrote:Very impressive. Too bad SM is getting all this love and not the other factions.



I completely agree. It's growing tiresome seeing all the attention and changes being made to Space Marines, whilst all other factions aren't getting anything. Can we stop just continually adding things to Space Marines that aren't necessary at all, whilst the other races are getting comparatively few changes/reworks/visual add-ons etc.
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby BaptismByLoli » Wed 16 Apr, 2014 6:07 am

To be fair have you seen the changes in the IG unit department and how Chaos are also starting to get new skins and PC getting a new global?

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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Barrogh » Wed 16 Apr, 2014 6:09 am

For those who don't know yet (if there are such people here at all :D).
Lore-wise, grav-guns are Crusade-era weapons that use target's own mass against itself, although it is only capable of affecting limited space, so they are less effective against large targets despite their mass. Apparently, AdMech managed to get their mechadendrites on intact STCs and kickstart mass-production of these weapons, mostly for Space Marines forces.

In tabletop, grav-gun is salvo-firing weapon that works best against infantry with heavy armour, but almost worthless against models with light armour. It doesn't work well against vehicles, but is capable of immobilizing them and slowly grinding them down. Grav-pistols, combi-gravs and heavy grav-canons also exist. Their primary weakness is short range - only grav-canon is capable of firing from bolter range, but no further.

Due to wonky wording of rules, this weapon ignores (by RAW - rules as written) invulnerability saves (something that usually represents protection from energy fields, daemonic essence, being a scrap heap on wheels that was defying common sense even before you made another hole in the hull etc.) of vechicles. This fact, combined with obscene amount of shots weapon is capable of dishing out (and availability of relatively survivable infantry platform for them), made them a weird weapon of choice against flyers as they can saturate almost anything with bucket of dice they vomit, and shortage of dedicated anti-air ensured that dice saturation is the most reliable and accessible way to fight elusive flyers for some armies. Almost like it was in early XXth...

This weapon system plays game of tradeoffs primarily with plasma weapons due to shared main purpose.

There are numerous concerns with this weapon when it comes to implementing into DoW2, especially on TM, but primary ones are lack of distinctive role and the fact that TM already saturated with gun options. Heavy grav-canon could be interesing option if one day you will get the idea that TM needs setup weapon though.

On presented visuals: I think I like the model, although since DoW setting isn't quite rife with recently rediscovered tech, it could be done to make it look more like a relic item... What I'm not sure about is the way firing is visualized. That may be just me, but I was picturing its effects to be more subtle.
Last edited by Barrogh on Wed 16 Apr, 2014 2:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Jazz-Sandwich » Wed 16 Apr, 2014 6:25 am

Beautiful work, would love to see this implemented into the SM arsenal somehow. Perhaps it's role could be distinguished by applying a speed debuff to targets with heavy infantry/superheavy infantry or vehicle armour? A support weapon, rather than an overtly offensive option? Seems like it would be an effective tool against termie variants, or vehicles when there are setup AV teams about.

@everyone giving out about the relative attention SM enjoy - this is just a natural reflection on the popularity of the different factions, and where the interest of the different 3d modellers lie. Also note all the goodies made for Chaos.

The absence of too many new features for nids is a direct representation of the lack of assets available, rather than a deliberate neglect. If the materials were there, they'd likely be used where appropriate. Feel free to learn how to make some, folks. We'll wait.

(It's also worth mentioning that many modellers have difficulty designing 'organic' meshes, from what I've gathered from friends who model.)
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby L0thar » Wed 16 Apr, 2014 9:07 am

Awesome job, Santos!

As for implementation, I would like to see them added to SM in general, not just TM. If the melta needs some tweaking, then tweak it, don't replace it. It's true that it feels a little one dimensional so an added ability wouldn't hurt.

My take on grav guns - a T3 tact upgrade (it could be a further upgrade to plasma gun to avoid problems with interface). Massive damage against SHI, comparable damage to HI as plasma, pitiful damage to light. Slow down on vehicles.

It's not a no-brainer upgrade but has a clear niche - late game with lots of terminators, carnifexes and similar stuff running around.

Fluff wise, there are actually two types of Grav guns, first have rules in SM codex (and are used in "current" 40K), while the second have rules in Horus Heresy books from FW (and is used in 30K armies). They differ somewhat, I can dig out the exact difference if anybody is interested.

But the general idea behind them is the same, as Barrogh wrote. Only I'm quite sure that they don't ignore invulnerable saves...

Lt. Ekul wrote:
Helios wrote:Very impressive. Too bad SM is getting all this love and not the other factions.

I completely agree. It's growing tiresome seeing all the attention and changes being made to Space Marines, whilst all other factions aren't getting anything. Can we stop just continually adding things to Space Marines that aren't necessary at all, whilst the other races are getting comparatively few changes/reworks/visual add-ons etc.


Gameplay wise? SM didn't get any more attention than other races. Chaos in particular received more. Cosmetics absolutely, but the models are made by fans of the game in their own free time. You want new Tyranids models? Go make them yourself, I'm sure the dev team would be happy to include them.
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Orkfaeller » Wed 16 Apr, 2014 11:32 am

Yah, the reason why Space Marines seem to get more stuff than others, is just because there are more art assets out there for them. And that has just also to do with the fact that Space Marine gear is far more standardized than other factions' ones, imho. ( armour, weapons, tanks etc )

Including Ven- or Sternguard is just taking a normal marine and recolouring his helmet.
Making a Chaos Cult Marine, a new Aspect Warrior, or a tyranid creature requires alot of actual modeling work.

Just compare the amount of work that had to go into VanguardVets and Raptors.
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Barrogh » Wed 16 Apr, 2014 11:42 am

L0thar wrote:Only I'm quite sure that they don't ignore invulnerable saves...

This is off-topic, but the thing is that on a roll of 6 they inflict Immobilized and remove hull point (IIRC). As per RAW, it's neither glancing nor penetrating hit (that yes, can lead to Immobilization and/or HP removal, but gravs bypass galnce/pen mech completely) and vechicles can only make invul. saves against those.

As I've mentioned, that's rule-lawering territory (hello GW, can we please have FAQ/errata? and while we are at it, can you please fix your site to contain those that already existed before you migrated, eh?), so what that means is that I do not suggest that gravs should hit through Halo-like abilities, should weapon family be introduced to DoW2.

And to presented suggestions, remember that while fluffy, snares (especially ones that affect vechicles) are very potent mech in DoW2 and having them on small arm weapon upgrade sounds like a nice recipe for disaster IMO.
Last edited by Barrogh on Wed 16 Apr, 2014 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 16 Apr, 2014 12:00 pm

Nothing indicates that grav weapons ignore invulnerable saves or cover saves.
On a 6+ vs vehicles, they suffer an immobilised result and los a hull point.
Again, nothing indicating that you can't take a cover save since cover saves are taken after the result roll, which this is.

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Re: Grav Gun

Postby L0thar » Wed 16 Apr, 2014 12:36 pm

Barrogh, I misread your original post, I though you were saying that they ignore all invulns, even for infantry.

There was definitely some discussion regarding cover and invuln saves for vehicles, but I actually don't remember the general consensus. But yeah, GW really dropped the ball with (not only) FAQs recently.

Barrogh wrote:And to presented suggestions, remember that while fluffy, snares (especially ones that affect vechicles) are very potent mech in DoW2 and having them on small arm weapon upgrade sounds like a nice recipe for disaster IMO.


That's true. Hovewer it would be on a low range weapon on a relatively slow squad. The snare could be set pretty low (say 20%, not 50+% like current snares). Just a little bump for the incoming carnifex and/or swarmlord.

Anyway, the slow can go away, as far as I'm concerned. I would be mostly interested in the big anti SHI damage, which SM are missing currently (unlike snares).
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Barrogh » Wed 16 Apr, 2014 1:07 pm

L0thar wrote:Anyway, the slow can go away, as far as I'm concerned. I would be mostly interested in the big anti SHI damage, which SM are missing currently (unlike snares).

Well, that's a good reason why this shouldn't be on TM exclusively by the way. For one, his overloaded Plasma rifle qualifies for "big anti-SHI damage" as far as I'm concerned, as long as it's allowed to fire ofc.

Dark Riku wrote:Nothing indicates that grav weapons ignore invulnerable saves or cover saves.
On a 6+ vs vehicles, they suffer an immobilised result and los a hull point.
Again, nothing indicating that you can't take a cover save since cover saves are taken after the result roll, which this is.

May I ask where can I find a definition of "result roll"? :P

Anyways:
Page 75 of BRB indicates that vechicles make cover saves against glancing and penetrating hits.

Description of invulnerability saves in BRB FAQ (page 17 AFAICT) specifically states the following: "Invulnerable saves are different to armour saves because they may always be taken whenever the model suffers a Wound or, in the case of vehicles,
suffers a penetrating or glancing hit
."
As grav guns work per Graviton rule rather than following normal rules, grav gun never inflicts Glancing or Penetrating hits, making any existing rules on both cover or invulnerability saves for vechicles never come into play in the first place.

Look, I understand that it's not RAI, I'm sure that we would see "Ignores cover" rule there otherwise, or Graviton rule would state that they punch through saves if it was intended, but so far RAW is very hard to argue against it seems, and we can only wait for erratas.
So I conclude that, as you've said yourself:

Dark Riku wrote:Their FaQ's are currently being updated... Get ready for some facepalming! :D

Which I always ready to do. :)
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 16 Apr, 2014 1:49 pm

You gave me the impression that nothing gets an invul save vs grav weapons.

You're right on the no cover save/invul save versus vehicles.

Grav rules state that: "When resolving a hit against a vehicle, roll
a D6 for each hit instead of rolling for ann our peneoat.ion
as nom1al. On a 1-5 nothing happens, but on a 6, the target
suffers an lmmobilised result and loses a single Hull Point."

--> which could let you assume it counts as a penetrating hit since it does all the things a penetrating hit does. Lose a HP and get a damage table result.
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Barrogh » Wed 16 Apr, 2014 2:02 pm

I've checked my initial message and indeed, it looks like writing all that stuff in parentheses distracted me from completing the sentence :lol:
I appologize. I've also fixed that post so it causes no further confusions.
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Aertes » Wed 16 Apr, 2014 3:14 pm

As for what role it would have, I'd suggest this:

Make it a slow rate of fire weapon that deals damage depending on the objective:
- Infantry: average damage (like a Plasma Rifle)
- Heavy/Superheavy Infantry: High damage (like twice or trice a plasma rifle)
- Monster: Extreme damage (like a Lascannon)
- Vehicles: no damage but with a chance of disabling it (like a no-damaging meltabomb)
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Santos
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Santos » Wed 16 Apr, 2014 4:49 pm

I've been thinking grav gun could actually replace TM's plasma gun. There is nothing wrong with it, but you would expect a follower of the machine god to have some more unique toys at his disposal, than plasma weapons which even a lowly guardsman can use.

I did a little experiment with adding a dirt layer. The effects were quite hilarious:

Image

What marine would use such a dirty weapon (if it even still worked). It's clearly overdone. Or is it? :roll:

Image

Still looks cleaner than marine's own armor. Why exactly Relic thought it's such a good idea to cover power armours from top to bottom in mud & shit? :?

Anyway, this is how it looks in the game right now (with dirt texture):

Image
Image
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby ChrisNihilus » Wed 16 Apr, 2014 4:55 pm

Santos wrote:I've been thinking grav gun could actually replace TM's plasma gun. There is nothing wrong with it, but you would expect a follower of the machine god to have some more unique toys at his disposal, than plasma weapons which even a lowly guardsman can use.


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I agree with this idea.
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Re: Grav Gun

Postby Barrogh » Wed 16 Apr, 2014 8:19 pm

It's definitely better this way as previously it looked not really "clean", but more like "flat".

Speaking of the latter suggestion, I agree if you absolutely need to not let all the work go to waste. One thing I hated about Elite is all those cosmetic changes with no reason. I mean, what if some people actually like their plasma gun and still not sure why aspect warriors got taught science of war, but not the art? :P

That said, the model could be included in the game at any moment now and it wouldn't look out of place.
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