Make OM great again.

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.

Let Antandron try and fix GK?

Yes
9
38%
No
15
63%
 
Total votes: 24
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SarDauk
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby SarDauk » Wed 23 Oct, 2019 12:46 pm

Well, first I supported your idea Antandron, but seriously the changes your are proposing....
Sound like to me you want just OM to be a mirror of SM while everyone agree that one of the reasons of the imbalance of OM is the fact they are reworked completely every 2 patch.

Not to mention your idea for SS... Same range dps as tacs but an ability to allow them to fight back banshees in melee ?? That is this madness ? :shock:
"Drive me closer! I want to hit them with my sword!"
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Antandron
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Antandron » Wed 23 Oct, 2019 2:21 pm

You might be right. My thinking was that they would be 500/0, therefore about 10% better than Tacs. That might mean Tac dps and MS 70, or Tac dps and 375hp, or something else. I thought SS got owned completely by Banshees in melee so 70MS would prevent this, but they would still lose convincingly due to Banshee power melee. It wouldn't be completely one-sided like it is now, which is a bit embarrassing for our SS.

Iirc, GK are an SM chapter. Their similarity to SM is unavoidable and doesn't cause me much offence. I don't see the problem.
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SarDauk
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby SarDauk » Thu 24 Oct, 2019 12:17 am

Well they already looks like SM for a lot of their units, but I think it's nice for them to have some differences in their rooster: for exemple the IST as a starter unit instead of a scout like unit.
For the SS the issue is, if they are able to do well against banshees, just imagine what they could do to other squads in melee in addition of high range damage.
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Lunatic
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Lunatic » Thu 24 Oct, 2019 2:59 am

I much prefer the current SS with Nemesis Focus instead. At the very least they should fit best as a melee focused unit both lore wise and faction wise. The balance team has already made them to be a more melee centric marine variant to TAC and CSM stat wise, and they don't need more ranged damage to perform at that. On that note, people have usually complained about Psybolts SS ranged damage being too strong, as well as Nemesis Focus SS not scaling well into the late game like Purifiers can. GK Strike Squads Current State (6 months ago on forums) https://dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4907.

Perhaps making SS able to upgrade into limited Purifiers (like how TAC can upgrade to limited Sternguard Vets) would do the trick? Purifiers are supposedly an elite among the GK (like Vets are), and they had to be toned down quite a bit for being too strong of a non-limited T2 shock troop just a few patches ago. It just struck me as a missed opportunity to pull OM together and condense their roster, considering that most of the other factions have units that build upon each other instead of eclipsing each other or creating unit redundancy.
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SaintKelly
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby SaintKelly » Tue 29 Oct, 2019 8:05 am

Antandron wrote:I've tried more than most but when half the community believes that unit comparisons between factions are invalid, there is no hope. Even the word 'balance' is originated from the act of comparing one thing against another.

I've been feeding my RTS addiction by playing Wargame: Red Dragon, a game with asymmetric factions and 1988 units and the balance is better than it is in Elite Mod. How do they do it? Direct unit comparisons across factions. Units which are identical cost the same. If unit A has slightly better stats than unit B, it costs more, and so on.

e.g.
Image

Amazingly, it works!

See this: https://imgur.com/a/vN1En for more information.

Anyway, I will try to stay away from balance discussion except to say 'I told you so' the next time you guys break something or fail to repair what is broken. *cough* GM Sargeants *cough* free 2for1 *cough* 3for1 reinforcement *cough*.


Amazingly, it does not work! Wargame: Red Dragon has completely shit balance, fueled by retarded developers who then went on to make the game Pay to Win towards the end of its life then fucking dropped it. It’s not exactly the gold standard you should be trying to emulate. Yes “thousands” of units are in the game but in practice you only buy a specific few, with the rest being useless never buys.

Yeah sure you can compare units directly, but that doesn’t stop the balance from being terrible. Elite Mod has the codex if they would update it. Red Dragon is also a very different RTS than DoW2 focusing more on the macro side of things, or you know just pay 16 dollars and buy Yugoslavia, Finland and Israel to win any game you show up to if you have any level of intelligence.
Temperus Maximus
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Temperus Maximus » Fri 01 Nov, 2019 4:01 am

If the OM is too be made great again the faction has to undergo a radical change, merely being Space Marines with attached guardsmen is not the answer. So here is my proposal.

Escalation phases: The OM uses an escalation phase model, rendering each tier of play very different (with the most noticeable difference between t1 and t2) from one another. In t1 the OM is entirely imperial special forces, no GK at all and instead of being led by the BC is led by a modified version of the IG inquisitor. There unit roster for t1 is Inquisitorial Storm Troopers, Inquisitorial Operatives, Fanatics (t1 melee squad that uses the Chaos heretic model for easy addition to game, essentially beefier heretics resistant to suppression with no worship nor suicide bomb), Vindicare Assassin (modified, his "full" package available in t2) and perhaps a Tauros (https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tauros), the Tauros could be a reskinned Ork Trukk if based on the Venator model.

T2: In T2 something special happens, all t1 units gain the "Terminate" ability, allowing them to be sacrificed in return for half their unit's production cost + the cost of any upgrades made to them. In addition the next unit you make after terminating a t1 unit has it's production time reduced by -10 seconds. This allows the OM to rapidly retool or play as a hybrid army at the player's discretion. T2 units would be SS (melee focused with a lesser version of Smite once the Justicar is added, caps VPs at the same rate as tacs and is generally a "pursuit" squad), Purifiers (power melee designed to counter vehicles and wreck heavy infantry, acts as the anvil to the SS's hammer), Purgators (designed to support the melee via psilencers, inflict serious damage with psycannons and counter hordes with flamer), and the Rhino (as usual).

T3: T3 ushers in an important upgrade for the Inquisitor, replacing her with the BC and ushering in a very different set of globals. In T3 the focus shifts to Terminators and extraordinarily potent psychic abilities. The lineup is Terminators, Grey Knight Dreadnought, Interceptors, Land Raider Crusader and the Terminator Librarian.
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Antandron
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Antandron » Sun 03 Nov, 2019 10:12 am

SaintKelly wrote:Amazingly, it does not work! Wargame: Red Dragon has completely shit balance, fueled by retarded developers who then went on to make the game Pay to Win towards the end of its life then fucking dropped it. It’s not exactly the gold standard you should be trying to emulate. Yes “thousands” of units are in the game but in practice you only buy a specific few, with the rest being useless never buys.

Yeah sure you can compare units directly, but that doesn’t stop the balance from being terrible. Elite Mod has the codex if they would update it. Red Dragon is also a very different RTS than DoW2 focusing more on the macro side of things, or you know just pay 16 dollars and buy Yugoslavia, Finland and Israel to win any game you show up to if you have any level of intelligence.


Balance was very good before P2W OPDLC. The reason for that was that the Devs wanted money and OP stuff sells well. Even so, correcting the imbalance is incredibly easy using the method of direct comparison. I could expand on all this to formalise it and iron out inconsistencies, but something I heard today demoralised me to the point of despair.

Earlier I explained how "Free Stuff = OP Stuff". Starting from the premise that "the cost of a unit is proportional to its strength" it follows that "free stuff = OP stuff" and then it is relatively straightforward to conclude that IG GM Sargeants are OP because the 2for1 is free. Free 2for1 = OP 2for1 because it violates the fundamental axiom of RTS balance of "the cost of a unit is proportional to its strength".

So what was it Antandron that demoralised you to the point of despair?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/503158457

Go to 03:19:10 near the end.

Here we have Torpid, a man I believed to be of sound mind, who has almost certainly read my "Free 2for1 = OP 2for1" argument, say the following:

"Why the fuck can he field 5 Guardsmen and still have requisition to buy more units? That's the problem. If there was more upkeep on them and the base cost was higher, you wouldn't be able to just field 5 of them on a whim like this."

Ofc it's not the free 2for1 for nearly the whole game. No, that couldn't possibly be the reason. It must be the upkeep, or maybe the base cost, or maybe the weather? Who knows? It's not as if anybody has investigated this and explained it on the forums in a way that a five-year old could understand.

In case you've forgotten:

Free Stuff = OP Stuff.
Free 2for1 = OP 2for1.
OP 2for1 = Free req.
Free req = Broken.

Yeah I used the B word. 'OP' couldn't do this travesty justice.
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Torpid
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Torpid » Sun 03 Nov, 2019 3:25 pm

But I say that because removing 2for1 reinforce is off the tables. Why is it off the tables? Well firstly I have to point out that this is a situation of ideological paradigms - GM could be equally balanced in a situation where we removed 2for1 reinforce and a situation where we didn't - it all depends on how we modify other factors such as base cost, upkeep value and pop values.

There are two motivating factors for choosing the paradigm in which we hit upkeep/pop rather than the 2for1 reinforce or the sarge upgrade.

1) Guardsmen were not considered OP in retail wherein the IG early t1 was stronger due to more powerful sentinels, and where the GM cost only marginally more out of the gate with an absolutely identical sergeant upgrade bar the pop cost for that model and 2for1 reinforce mechanic. Therefore what has made GM OP from retail to elite can only be one, two or a combination of both things.

a] The reduction in GM base cost from 230 to 210 requisition in elite mod.

b] the reduction in the pop cost and thus upkeep impact on the GM sarge from 4 to 2.

2) Legacy - It has been this way for the best part of a decade now and it is inherent to the design of the unit and is a very unique feature, one that in the base game is 100% unique, and in elite mod is only shared by the tyranid gaunts. If we can avoid changing it this is a good reason to do so.

Thus I state that both the base cost and the upkeep cost of the sarge should go up. The sarge and thereby GM (Since they are not considered viable combat units without him [unlike the commissar who is far more of a luxury, niche purchase]) are op.
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Antandron
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Antandron » Sun 03 Nov, 2019 4:27 pm

Torpid wrote:- GM could be equally balanced in a situation where we removed 2for1 reinforce and a situation where we didn't -


I believe this to be false. Let's assume 2for1 saves the IG player 5 req per minute. Firstly, the cost is free, so after 1 minute the IG player is +5 free req, 2 minutes +10 free req and so on up to and beyond 30 minutes = +150 free req. Effectively making the unit cheaper and cheaper until the unit itself is free. How can a free unit be balanced? How can a unit that progressively becomes cheaper and cheaper for no extra cost be balanced? Let's say it comes with a cost of 50/0. Now it's only balanced after 10 minutes. 9 minutes and under and it's UP for 50/0 and 11 minutes or more it becomes more and more OP. It's impossible to balance and this is exactly what makes it a terrible idea.

Torpid wrote:b] the reduction in the pop cost and thus upkeep impact on the GM sarge from 4 to 2.


This would have increased upkeep by 5.1req/minute, reducing the OPness of 2for1 providing free req. But again, if the IG player is +5.1req/minute because of 2for1 and the Sergeant is costing an extra 5.1req/minute, this is balanced. If the IG player is +10req/minute from 2for1 then s/he is +4.9req/minute better off from an ability that cost nothing. Again, impossible to balance correctly.

Torpid wrote:2) Legacy - It has been this way for the best part of a decade now and it is inherent to the design of the unit and is a very unique feature, one that in the base game is 100% unique, and in elite mod is only shared by the tyranid gaunts. If we can avoid changing it this is a good reason to do so.


I really doubt anyone would care if 2for1 was removed from GM and Hormagaunts. Besides, this is an awful justification for 2for1.

Torpid wrote:Thus I state that both the base cost and the upkeep cost of the sarge should go up.


I'm glad we agree on something. Unfortunately, the method you are using is a kludge.

An interesting thought I had is that the 2 extra GM aren't worth 35/0 each because part of the cost of the unit is its repair ability, and this isn't changed with the addition of more models. Maybe they are only worth 30/0 instead. Interestingly, this means the Commisar model costs 85/20 - 60/0 = 25/20.

25/20 = 140hp, 26.15 melee dps, 15.64 ranged dps. Summary execution ability and 3for1 instead of 2for1. Balanced? Idk tbh. I think the mods could gain a lot of insight by breaking down units and squad leaders into their parts and analysing each part individually and making comparisons across factions.

e.g. Kasrkin Sergeant is a pretty much a Tac with +0.5 speed. Costs 85/20 and is reinforced for full cost. Iirc he's the most overpriced squad leader in the game. Compare to Purifier Justicar:

650hp HInf, 70MS, 37dps power melee, 10.5dps piercing ranged. Silence ability.

Cost?

90/25.
Last edited by Antandron on Sun 10 Nov, 2019 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Lunatic » Mon 04 Nov, 2019 2:36 am

I think Torpid is correct about GM needing to be reverted back to where they were at retail, where there weren't any inherent issues with them. Retail had it right at 230 for GM; it burdened anyone trying to create multiple squads of GM, and therefore helped prevent any uncontrollable spamming. Dropping GM to 210 was the biggest mistake for the GM of Elite, since it removed that small burden on a unit that has such a heavily subsidized reinforcement mechanic in T1 and allowed for them to be more viably spammed. Once they are reverted to 230, GM should be in back to where they were. It's the safest bet for fixing them.
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boss
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby boss » Mon 04 Nov, 2019 9:22 am

Making gm cost more is not going to change anything really it only delays your next buy by wut 8 or so secs since you get 264 rec per min and dats without rec points. It's like the chimera cost 5 more power useless change.

Like I don't understand this thing about gm op how they cost 285 rec cos you want sarge, they trade fire with other range units, cap points, run away from melee and repair the baneblade>sentinel that there whole role in t1 don't seem that op to me.

Early game ig pressure comes from the fact that first some races start off with a melee unit and that just worthless vs ig most of the time since sentinels just counter them. Then sentinel allows ig to take damage and repair and lose nothing for it while doing damage back which means ig can win first engagements very easy if not all the time which then translates into ig getting map control while losing nothing really since sent takes all the damage.

Cos now players have gotten better at doing this means they don't need to invest into 1.5 units to keep up the pressure and just go fast t2 instead cos ig gets the early game map control means more rec and power income aka 8 min chimera become a thing dat and not invest into 1.5 units and this is what's happen atm in league.

So you can see how messing around with gm cost is not going to change ig performance at all just going to delay stuff by 8 or so secs who cares same build order will still happen ig with just win engagements get map and just win cos you refuse to solve why ig can get early game pressure and put other races on such a back foot that they rarely recover from it.
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saltychipmunk
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby saltychipmunk » Fri 15 Nov, 2019 7:01 pm

Not that I have much of say in this since i stopped playing elite ages ago out of frustration but:

To me the issue with ig was never about guardsmen. It was always the sentinel. A t1 vehicle is a balance nightmare just because of the inherent mechanics of vehicles.. ie can be repaired on field, no moral to suppress, inherently superior kiting potential because of being able to back peddle, all the hit points focused on one model etc. That is one thing. It is another entirely that it is an almost power free vehicle that can be purchased at the start of a game. That is broken.

You wan't IG to not be a pain in the ass with their cheese , you either need to move that thing into t2 where the vehicles belong.. or you need to treat it like the t1.5+ unit it is and make it impossible to use it as an opening unit.

Otherwise it will always boil down to a bunch of cheap inexpensive guardsmen squads getting away with repairing a cheese ball tank when its at 5 hp in match ups where the effective dps on the table is only in the double digits.

As boss pointed out, ig dont need to invest in t1.5.. And I say it is because they start with their t1.5 unit. I would be very interested to see how the game plays out if the sentinel and say the cats switched places. (with the notable abilities of the cats being gated by upgrades). T1 should be a slug fest between infantry... but that is just my opinion


Also for the love of god put interceptors back in t1. removing them from t1 was the single strangest decision in elite history and the race was never the same after it with a massive hole in its early line up and an effectively superfluous unit tac-ed on to t3. they may have just been crappy asm but they were a welcome option in an otherwise painfully one dimensional t1.
Telos
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Telos » Sat 16 Nov, 2019 7:58 am

It's kinda funny to me that a discussion on OM devolved into an argument over the problems with IG.

Instead of targeting the sent's cost/utility, couldn't it be balanced by reducing its weapon's range or sight radius? The problem seems to be that the sent can trade safely with enemy squads while GM repair from a safe distance. If its weapons range was reduced to a point that GM were in range of enemy fire to repair, then they would have to risk bleeding the GM in order to keep it in play. Or if its sight radius were reduced then it'd need either a GM squad or hero to spot for it (thus offering counterplay in targeting the unit giving sight). You don't hit the unit's strengths as hard and open up avenues for counterplay.
Deflaktor
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Deflaktor » Mon 18 Nov, 2019 12:20 am

That's actually a pretty good idea

One thing that always annoyed me with OM is that they have a bazillion different abilities. I know that initially OM/GK was designed to be a micro intensive race for top players so I guess that is the reason for that. But it also increases the amount of stuff other players need to learn to counterplay these abilities.

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