Make OM great again.

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.

Let Antandron try and fix GK?

Yes
9
38%
No
15
63%
 
Total votes: 24
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Antandron
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Make OM great again.

Postby Antandron » Sat 12 Oct, 2019 10:16 am

I propose that I be given free rein to fix what is broken using my amazing yet underutilised RTS balance methods.

What's the worst that can happen? OM are already a dumpster fire. Can't get any worse.

If it works, then the Elite Mod community may just see the light wrt unit comparisons across factions.

I will listen to suggestions on unit upgrades and abilities from the community, then implement whatever I deem to be a good idea. I get to veto anything I want, yet players can suggest anything they want.

Lore will be play an influence whenever it does not interfere with balance, e.g. SS would be superior to Tacs and CSM, cost 500req, 375hp per model, Tac ranged DPS and CSM melee dps, same speed, 5pop/model and slightly higher upkeep than Tacs and CSM in accordance with my views on upkeep.

I'll need to know what is OP, UP, underused, useless and so on.
Last edited by Antandron on Sat 12 Oct, 2019 2:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby PianoMan » Sat 12 Oct, 2019 10:24 am

cant be worse than adila
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Antandron » Sat 12 Oct, 2019 1:12 pm

PianoMan wrote:cant be worse than adila


Is that a compliment?
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boss
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby boss » Sat 12 Oct, 2019 4:39 pm

Idk if this is a troll post or what but I treat it as real.

Gk or om however you want to call them have been turned upside down so many times that it's going to take more than just strike squad changes to make them a race again and not just bullshit .

Me and torpid been talked about them alot and we both came to the same idea that gk or om just need a whole rework from top to bottom, they don't work as a race no more and you just end up having to abuse the most broken stuff about them to work hence why most players want them to be removed.

As for you being the one to make them great again surrrrrrrrre no you don't even play elite mod so yea.
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Torpid » Sat 12 Oct, 2019 5:06 pm

No, let's not have another complete re-design of the race so once again nobody knows wtf they do... That was the source of the problem all along.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby boss » Sat 12 Oct, 2019 6:00 pm

Nobody knows what this race is supposedly doing atm and in the past patchs, all its been is find out what's broken and abuse it as much as you can interesting race design. Im pretty sure cos gk had nothing broken in t1 you was said they was useless in one patch so that kinda tells you something right there they need overpower shit to work.

How is anybody to know what the balance team if I can even call them that balance want from gk when you guys hide shit from your player base and still are no wonder we don't know. Even yourself said strike squad should not even have a range upgrade yet oh look it's in and bugged/buffed whatever, I think it more the fact balance team has no idea what it wants from gk but I guess since 5 guys was doing changes to them no wonder.

Since you wanted to make gk work so much torpid you need to wake up and just look at them they don't work and have not been for ages I guess you guys are hoping a new gk hero will solve this with your new content but that will just add another hero to have to make the race work around and add a whole new set of problems rather than fixing any.
I hoped you saw the light when you agree with a rework of the race but I guess you failed in the end and so will gk.
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Antandron » Sat 12 Oct, 2019 6:45 pm

Torpid wrote:No, let's not have another complete re-design of the race so once again nobody knows wtf they do... That was the source of the problem all along.


I wasn't planning a redesign, only some fine-tuning of the following:

SS to 500req as explained and the upgrades reworked and moved to T2.
Vindicare made useful.
Purgation Psilencers and Lascannon brought back into line with similar units since they've been outrageously OP recently.
Squad Leader prices reworked since they are almost random at the moment. See Purifier Justicar.
I'll make small adjustments to units and upgrade costs by comparing to other factions. I know some people don't believe this is a valid approach, but this proposal of mine is intended to be a sort of, uhhh what's it called, proof of concept?

Boss wrote:As for you being the one to make them great again surrrrrrrrre no you don't even play elite mod so yea.


I'm on strike because of GM Sergeants. How the fuck are they 85/0 when you get 2 Guardsmen with the upgrade and 2for1 reinforcement? I can't take Elite Mod seriously while egregious bullshit like this exists.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_concept

All these changes of mine would only be a beta and could be reversed without much trouble if the community object to what I do.
Last edited by Antandron on Sun 13 Oct, 2019 5:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby SarDauk » Sat 12 Oct, 2019 8:30 pm

Well, if the current balance team has no idea on how to fix OM, I say let Antandron give it a try on a beta patch. What can we loose ?
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby PianoMan » Sun 13 Oct, 2019 9:58 am

at least antandron wouldn't be a giant pussy afraid of putting interceptors t1 when its the only thing preventing the race from being normal, but for the sake of a race being unique in a game where nothing is unique lets keep them with the weirdest roster possible and whine about them not being properly balanced
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Lunatic » Sun 13 Oct, 2019 1:14 pm

Besides the over-buffed Psybolts Ammunition (50/15 and should just be removed), what is wrong with current SS? 500 Req is a steep req increase, while upkeep changes will have pretty much zero impact if SS are bought right off the bat (note: pop increase will work though). Why change req and upkeep?
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Antandron » Sun 13 Oct, 2019 1:53 pm

I would try and stick to lore whenever possible and SS being worse than Tacs makes me cringe a little. The starting unit can't be more than 500req if it is to be purchased immediately, so 500req is an upper limit to the T1 unit cost. SS deserve to be 500req imo since the lore states that they are superior to your regular SM. They wouldn't need a T1 upgrade afaict. Upgrades could be placed into T2 and work similarly to what they are now, a melee or ranged focus. Pop would be 5 which is the same as Tacs and CSM because standardisation is de rigeur here.

Nonsense like the following can be fixed:

Interceptor 150/20
Interceptor Justicar 80/20

Purifier 150/21.66
Purifier Justicar 90/25

?!?!

Question. Why are Interceptors not represented as they are in tabletop? In the 8th edition Codex Interceptors are SS with teleport. Nothing like what Interceptors are in Elite Mod. This would solve the OM weakness vs SUTs.
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Oddnerd » Mon 14 Oct, 2019 1:39 am

I have a final solution for the GK balance issues :D
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Schepp himself » Mon 14 Oct, 2019 9:27 am

Antandron wrote:[...]

Question. Why are Interceptors not represented as they are in tabletop? In the 8th edition Codex Interceptors are SS with teleport. Nothing like what Interceptors are in Elite Mod. This would solve the OM weakness vs SUTs.


I support the idea of just giving the OM a teleporting unit in T1 to counter weapon teams. Don't be fancy about it, just given them what almost everybody has. Especially when it is based on the fluff/tabletop.

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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby boss » Tue 15 Oct, 2019 3:28 pm

Oddnerd wrote:I have a final solution for the GK balance issues :D



Image






As for another note I been saying interceptors should have been added back to gk t1 a long time ago it's when it all started to go wrong since they lost there setup counter and melee unit as well as a line breaker, then operatives had to do theses roles and they was op so nerfs.

The whole of gk t1 was a mess and still is cos now they had to buff/ overbuff other units to do these roles hence why I want a whole rework from top to bottom for gk, define each unit role then add the tools to them to deal with counters like other races as of right now you just have very strong units doing everything and its why gk keep failing each patch.
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Antandron » Tue 15 Oct, 2019 5:11 pm

boss wrote:
Oddnerd wrote:...I want a whole rework from top to bottom for gk, define each unit role then add the tools to them to deal with counters like other races as of right now you just have very strong units doing everything and its why gk keep failing each patch.


So that's 8-4 after Boss changes his vote from 'no' to 'yes'.

Get ready, I am sharpening my pencil.
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Swift » Tue 15 Oct, 2019 5:28 pm

Not to rain on your parade, Antandron, but do be aware that GK have always been a mess.

Either they were a dull copy pasted faction with no real niche and purpose or they were a confused schizophrenic faction that jumped from god tier to god forsaken between patches. GK are not a faction easily fixed given a lot of problems stem from their differentiation from the other power armoured factions.

I admire the hopefulness of this idea, but whats said in theory is quite different in practise. GK have been redesigned enough and each time the intention was always to make them more appealing, and yet here we are now.

So, I guess to rain on your parade a little bit :]
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Oddnerd
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 15 Oct, 2019 7:03 pm

Is it true that GK are only in the game because a previously existing separate mod from elite had the models for them? I recall hearing that from one of the old veterans and it made the years long GK situation make sense. If they can be added on a whim, they can be removed on one as well IMO.
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Lunatic » Tue 15 Oct, 2019 8:09 pm

It certainly feels like the majority of OM units were implemented or created before the faction's style was designed and the unit roles were determined.
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby boss » Wed 16 Oct, 2019 8:26 am

Oddnerd

Yea the mod was called 40K destroy mod.

Antandron

Yea I will not be changing my vote at all putting a guy who think's everything can be solve with numbers is just no, but then we got adila and his so called balance team messing around with them yea idk what worse. Rather take the 3rd and 4th option nuke gk or keep both of these guys away from and put someone else in charge of them.

Swift

Gk as a race has never been redesigned just units from it to compensate for the lack of units or ability to counter like a normal race hence why gk keep getting overpower units doing everything. It stupid trying to make them not a power armour faction cos they are grey knights space marines you know kind hard not to.

Last thing I find funny is what you said trying to make gk more appealing :lol: :lol: yea if this is what you guys been trying to do last 10 or so patchs then you guys really have no idea what you are doing.
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Antandron » Wed 16 Oct, 2019 12:50 pm

Indulge my fantasy of fixing GK and proving all the doubters wrong.

Ordo Malleus v1

GK Fluff: High quality and low model count. SM but better, with some psychic abilities.
InqOps for repair support and capping. All HInf or SHInf.

Pricing: direct comparison with other units in other factions or in the same roster for squad leaders. Prices adjusted up or down depending whether their stats are superior or inferior. Roughly +10% cost = +20% dps or hp. 0.5 speed could be worth 10%.

T1

SS (500/0)
3 models 5pop/model 2.55 upkeep/pop
350hp HInf
Tac Ranged dps
30melee dps
100e
Mind Blades: +10 melee skill 10e/s or 70melee skill like ASM and Raptors.
No T1 upgrades.

A slight improvement on Tacs with more melee dps and mind blades replacing Purification to prevent SS being owned by Banshees and the ‘transfer all energy to BC with shield’ cheese. Or 70 melee skill so they can hold in melee vs Raptors and ASM in T1. Is this unreasonable? They cost 500/0 and Raptors get the jump and suppression on landing for -100/+40 price difference. Melee dps is similar but SS have better ranged dps.

Interceptors
(500/50)
Identical to SS except for teleport and 400hp (same as ASM, +50hp more than Raptors). Same as ASM jump but instant, +10 range, no KB. 55e or 60e. Mind blades or 70melee skill.
No T1 upgrades

Purgation (250/30)
3 models. 4 pop/model 2.55upkeep/pop
750hp. 20% melee resist like all other SUTs.
No T1 upgrades.

IST
I want to remove these and move Inquisitorial Operatives to the starting unit. Thoughts?

Inquisitorial Operatives
240req as a starting unit should be since is a free unit. In the Eldar vs SM MU having DA to start is a +60req advantage against SM starting with Scouts.
Not many options other than slower scouts with more durability.
2 or 3 models? I like 2 models to differentiate slightly from scouts. Something like:

120/0 per model. HInf 250hp, 60 melee skill (better than scouts, worse than SS), speed 5.5, same weapons and dps as they have now. Repair. 2 models per unit. 40% melee resist like Scouts. Can’t justify speed 6 HInf. Similar to Kasrkin who cost 90/6 with Krak and Frag grenades. Is this reasonable? -25hp, similar dmg profile but shorter range, +4 melee dps, no grenades, same speed but can repair. 4 pop/model 2.55 upkeep/pop.

Upgrades to be done later but could look something like this:
Frag grenades T1
Krak grenades T2 transitional AV
Detection T1
Stealth T1

That rounds up T1. Anything I missed? Do the SS need an ability other than Purification? Should Purification stay? Can it be abused in conjunction with the BC shield?
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby majortwitch » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 7:39 am

A more lore friendly I idea for t1 unit for GK could be a servitor squad.

Depending on how lore heavy you want them to 4-6 model squad, to reflect mind lock have low speed 3 to 4 and 50 melee skill. Because of the servo arms they have heavy melee dps but no range weapon. They also so have repair and 40% melee resist.

Next for power they can be upgraded to have heavy bolter, lower dps then SM one, and drop 30% melee resist?

T2: can upgrade and get a multi meta or plasma cannon? Also a tech marine would be available as either a unit upgrade acting as a sort of wraithguard spiritseer get their speed up 4 or 5 and doubling their repair rate while acting as die last model. Or the tech marine is stand alone T2 unit that acts as synapse creature for the servitors units give them a speed boost.
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Schepp himself » Mon 21 Oct, 2019 2:32 pm

Antandron wrote:Indulge my fantasy of fixing GK and proving all the doubters wrong.

Ordo Malleus v1

GK Fluff: High quality and low model count. SM but better, with some psychic abilities.
InqOps for repair support and capping. All HInf or SHInf.

Pricing: direct comparison with other units in other factions or in the same roster for squad leaders. Prices adjusted up or down depending whether their stats are superior or inferior. Roughly +10% cost = +20% dps or hp. 0.5 speed could be worth 10%.

T1

SS (500/0)
3 models 5pop/model 2.55 upkeep/pop
350hp HInf
Tac Ranged dps
30melee dps
100e
Mind Blades: +10 melee skill 10e/s or 70melee skill like ASM and Raptors.
No T1 upgrades.

A slight improvement on Tacs with more melee dps and mind blades replacing Purification to prevent SS being owned by Banshees and the ‘transfer all energy to BC with shield’ cheese. Or 70 melee skill so they can hold in melee vs Raptors and ASM in T1. Is this unreasonable? They cost 500/0 and Raptors get the jump and suppression on landing for -100/+40 price difference. Melee dps is similar but SS have better ranged dps.



I for one am for solutions that are somewhat tested in other units: A temporary melee-skill increase is not iirc, but abilities like 35% chance of a special are. I would stick with the 60 melee-skill (as for all other mainly ranged units) and opt for an ability akin to the ones stated.


Antandron wrote:
Interceptors
(500/50)
Identical to SS except for teleport and 400hp (same as ASM, +50hp more than Raptors). Same as ASM jump but instant, +10 range, no KB. 55e or 60e. Mind blades or 70melee skill.
No T1 upgrades



Why should the jumo be instant. Sure, it's teleportation but why change a tested and working mechanic (jumping take a few moments) when there is no need to?

Antandron wrote:
Purgation (250/30)
3 models. 4 pop/model 2.55upkeep/pop
750hp. 20% melee resist like all other SUTs.
No T1 upgrades.



So it's basically a low health noise marine squad. Interesting would be where to go with this unit when the game hits T2 and beyond. Currently checking the codex for an idea (Justicar with abilities for example).

Antandron wrote:
IST
I want to remove these and move Inquisitorial Operatives to the starting unit. Thoughts?

Inquisitorial Operatives
240req as a starting unit should be since is a free unit. In the Eldar vs SM MU having DA to start is a +60req advantage against SM starting with Scouts.
Not many options other than slower scouts with more durability.
2 or 3 models? I like 2 models to differentiate slightly from scouts. Something like:

120/0 per model. HInf 250hp, 60 melee skill (better than scouts, worse than SS), speed 5.5, same weapons and dps as they have now. Repair. 2 models per unit. 40% melee resist like Scouts. Can’t justify speed 6 HInf. Similar to Kasrkin who cost 90/6 with Krak and Frag grenades. Is this reasonable? -25hp, similar dmg profile but shorter range, +4 melee dps, no grenades, same speed but can repair. 4 pop/model 2.55 upkeep/pop.

Upgrades to be done later but could look something like this:
Frag grenades T1
Krak grenades T2 transitional AV
Detection T1
Stealth T1

That rounds up T1. Anything I missed? Do the SS need an ability other than Purification? Should Purification stay? Can it be abused in conjunction with the BC shield?


What I see here is a T1 with a starting unit similar to scouts. A unit that is a slightly better tactical squad (but without updates that make them viable in T2 and beyond?). A Jump squad and a Noise Marine squad. Just to get the idea.

I like the approach for a more traditional T1 unit composition. I think it's important, though, to have a plan for the rest of the roster and implementing abilities for T2 and/or T3.

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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Antandron » Mon 21 Oct, 2019 7:09 pm

I'm not interested in this anymore. Let someone else do it.

Delete the thread if you wish.
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Broodwich » Tue 22 Oct, 2019 2:35 am

Just what we need in a balance lead, someone who knows when to quit 8-)

You have my vote sir :D
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Antandron » Tue 22 Oct, 2019 4:50 am

I've tried more than most but when half the community believes that unit comparisons between factions are invalid, there is no hope. Even the word 'balance' is originated from the act of comparing one thing against another.

I've been feeding my RTS addiction by playing Wargame: Red Dragon, a game with asymmetric factions and 1988 units and the balance is better than it is in Elite Mod. How do they do it? Direct unit comparisons across factions. Units which are identical cost the same. If unit A has slightly better stats than unit B, it costs more, and so on.

e.g.
Image

Amazingly, it works!

See this: https://imgur.com/a/vN1En for more information.

Anyway, I will try to stay away from balance discussion except to say 'I told you so' the next time you guys break something or fail to repair what is broken. *cough* GM Sargeants *cough* free 2for1 *cough* 3for1 reinforcement *cough*.
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Torpid » Tue 22 Oct, 2019 5:11 am

But GM sarges were legitimately underpowered in retail so your whole argument doesn't even make sense. And yes, obviously the meta was different, notably a lot of other aspects were stronger, but... not really since in retail IG was considered bottom of the tiering by the end of 3.19 only really beating apo/TM. Whereas at present in 2.9.2 IG are considered the best, alongside eldar.

The problem with GM sarges to me is quite clear - the upkeep. that's the major change they had from retail and oh boy was it major. 4 pop vs 2 pop for each leader is just huge. that of course and lower base GM AND sent cost meaning you can just pump out those units. Gm sarge really ought to be 3 pop. Let's just call it at that.

The commissar on the other hand is perfectly fine as is, it's actually a very average upgrade in spite of his uber cost effective statline - because it breaks the economy of IG. IG is so reliant on maintaining low upkeep because even with the commissar guardsmen have no chance vs most fully ugpraded T2 threats. Especialyl when cover is available (forget fighting IG on ashes of typon).
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby boss » Tue 22 Oct, 2019 6:22 am

Antandron

Your ideas about how elite mod should do changes and balance is flawed cos each race/faction has diffent units doing diffent roles for each race something you seem to fail to understand at all, reason why comparing is bad from the get go.

If we do this from your point of view we would have to compare fire prisms to pred tanks you see where im going with this flawed from the get go both of these unit have diffent roles and that's fine elite mod job was always to make it fairer and counter play brought in for each race adding in diffent play styles as well and just builds as well and its done a decent job over the past years.

Elite mod balance failings in the past has come done to bitching and just failing to get general understand tho that has improved over the years, then there of course the fact we not had a balance leader since caeltos left, it was to be torpid tho he was so focused on changing meta at the expense of units that everyone got sick of it well "he left before he got kicked out" were still fixing the mess he did still. Then cyris somehow got it did nothing and another year wasted and now we got adila who lets just say wtf is he doing.

Ps this is a gk post if you want to bitch about ig go make an ig hate post I join in :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Antandron » Tue 22 Oct, 2019 6:34 am

Torpid wrote:But GM sarges were legitimately underpowered in retail so your whole argument doesn't even make sense.


If one Mars bar costs £1, how much do three Mars bars cost?

2for1 effectively give IG free req over the course of the game. About 8req per 2 GM models reinforced since they would pay 32 for 2 models but pay only 16 for 2. 3for1 is even worse. IG don't even pay for this 2for1 ability since the Sergeant is barely more than the cost of 2 GM (when he comes with 2 GM!).

Free stuff = OP stuff.
Free 2for1 = OP 2for1.

Boss wrote: Your ideas about how elite mod should do changes and balance is flawed cos each race/faction has diffent units doing diffent roles for each race something you seem to fail to understand at all, reason why comparing is bad from the get go.


Well, my intention was to prove or disprove the validity of my theory by experiment. If I could design a GK roster from the ground up, and have it balanced in relation to other factions (or at least not significantly OP or UP), that would be strong support for my arguments. You are welcome to try the same Boss.
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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Schepp himself » Tue 22 Oct, 2019 11:47 am

Personaly, that was a low blow, Antandron. I support your approach to make units comparable, I always did and still do (especially because the "argument" of "you can't compare units between different rosters" always comes up magically when people are out of arguments).

But coming out and bloating you gonna take matters in to your own hand, then starting a discussion about basically a brainstorm-page of a roster and than throwing the towel shortly after was for me a little bit insulting I have to admit.

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Re: Make OM great again.

Postby Antandron » Tue 22 Oct, 2019 12:52 pm

Look at the scorecard, the judges have me down 3 rounds. I don't see why I should exert any more effort on a lost cause.

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