SM and 1v1

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Asmon
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby Asmon » Wed 23 Oct, 2019 4:14 pm

Well if you lose a couple of models at every skirmish, ofc you'll be beaten.

About the librarian: such indirect buffs aren't necessarily a bad thing, in this case it's quite good actually because we barely see any libby in the current meta. In fact we see more often CS tricks with teleporting PM or devs to counter vehicles. It's a shame because libby (with default VoT now) sometimes makes more sense than the classic razorbak.
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Broodwich
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby Broodwich » Wed 23 Oct, 2019 5:07 pm

I don't see how buffing the libby is a bad thing, he is an awful purchase almost every time. I mean, there's at least 5 threads about him sucking..
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Lunatic
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby Lunatic » Wed 23 Oct, 2019 9:51 pm

XxMINGExX wrote:how often do other races have to retreat because a single model loss can cost you the game?

im fairly noobish and only really play sm and csm, but this is it, you break the bank for losing a couple of tac marines and its hard to get back on your feet

Everyone retreats when they need to avoid heavy losses, but SM has to be particularly careful since they have the most punishing reinforcement costs per model. For example, IG can lose 8 GM models and still reinforce (for 72 Req via bogo reinforcement) with just a GM Sergeant for less than the cost of a single TAC model (for 75 Req).
Tex
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby Tex » Thu 24 Oct, 2019 5:13 pm

Why does everyone think that the librarian is so bad now? I think that the indirect buff that I proposed will be a nice touch, but I don't really see him as being underwhelming right now.


These are the questions I have:

Is he only a good accessory for the FC?

Is it that he doesn't offer what SM needs right away in T2?

Is it that he isn't a brain dead addition to your army like the razorback is? (Hard to top the force multiplication that happens when an armored, hard hitting reinforcement point takes the field, I totally get it)

Is it that he is too easy to lose?

Is it simply that the librarian isn't being used to his full potential or people are unable to micro him?
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Broodwich
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby Broodwich » Thu 24 Oct, 2019 6:43 pm

Hate to rehash everything, but essentially all the points you made:

- He doesn't offer any AV himself
- He is countered by what your entire army until T2 is countered by, therefore forcing no additional purchases by the enemy
- He has one good offensive ability (smite) then has to get into melee (high risk) to get inspiration buffs
- He is more expensive than a RB, which forces the enemy to buy AV, can move your army much faster, and provide reinforce all while unloading lots of ranged DPS
- Can't control melee or ranged blobs, sorta can control ranged after getting staff (no damage though)

Compare him with a WB:

- Costs less power
- Has ranged AOE anti all attack with KB
- Has large AOE stun with no FF
- Has large AOE speed/DR buff for entire army
- Can fling guys into/out of combat
- Massive anti all arty ability

I mean, why would you get him? You're facing a vehicle when you hit t2 because SM take so much power in t1 to hold their ground, so you're already behind in tech, and you throw 360/60 at a unit that doesn't get you AV and still gets overwhelmed in melee, focused down by ranged units, controlled with suppression... etc...

If you fixed some of his shortcomings I would consider a purchase, but otherwise there's no reason to get him
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Paranoid Kamikaze
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Thu 24 Oct, 2019 9:35 pm

I use Librarian all the time. He has great support abilities.

VoT is good for FC to chase units on retreat or vehicles to continue getting hits. Also, ASM's can wipe setup teams sometimes with it
The teleport is good for Apo as he can teleport a unit to him to heal
Or just use on a dev that gets jumped and Vot him after
Had a Libby with Staff take out a T2 upgraded Raptor squad by himself
You can save a vehicle from hits using staff ability
Libby can run in and tank all shots for your army with defensive ability

Why does Libby on Codex show just a blank white page?
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boss
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby boss » Fri 25 Oct, 2019 8:28 pm

What broodwich said
Librarian supposed to be a support hero yet he only has veil of time and most of his other abilitys just don't have much of a place for him, gate only used with termis but termis are shit anyways so meh, smite meh, force barrier what is this supposed to do troll?

And that about it for what you pay he don't offer your army much, sm t2 is all about dreads since there not much to get anyways so yea zzzzzzz
Forums great more shit to talk about.
LOCALgHOST
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby LOCALgHOST » Sat 26 Oct, 2019 5:33 pm

so simple and brilliant
and force to go libby makes SM games more attractive
LOCALgHOST
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby LOCALgHOST » Wed 30 Oct, 2019 7:50 am

boss wrote:What broodwich said
Librarian supposed to be a support hero yet he only has veil of time and most of his other abilitys just don't have much of a place for him, gate only used with termis but termis are shit anyways so meh, smite meh, force barrier what is this supposed to do troll?

And that about it for what you pay he don't offer your army much, sm t2 is all about dreads since there not much to get anyways so yea zzzzzzz



Force staff's ability is one of the best underused abilities

It can push back any infantry unit including the heavy ones heroes like CL and BC and terminators. So you can break VP capping with termies

It gives nice melee DPS by the staff itself and it can control ranged blobs or disrupt melee attackers

And it has nice wiping potential when you use forcebarrier against retreat direction - enemy retreating hero can get some more Sternguard hellfire damage or even grenade on the predictable direction

Gate of infinity is very nice too to save devastators from jumping squads or jumping squads retreat after shocking attack

Libby needs awesome micro but he shines in that way i wish i could see the top players use of him

Veil of time is good on TM melta too when you're chasing RB or Falcon

I want this devastator change ^^ because VR is my second favorite upgrade
PianoMan
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby PianoMan » Wed 30 Oct, 2019 8:43 am

LOCALgHOST wrote:
boss wrote:What broodwich said
Librarian supposed to be a support hero yet he only has veil of time and most of his other abilitys just don't have much of a place for him, gate only used with termis but termis are shit anyways so meh, smite meh, force barrier what is this supposed to do troll?

And that about it for what you pay he don't offer your army much, sm t2 is all about dreads since there not much to get anyways so yea zzzzzzz



Force staff's ability is one of the best underused abilities

It can push back any infantry unit including the heavy ones heroes like CL and BC and terminators. So you can break VP capping with termies

It gives nice melee DPS by the staff itself and it can control ranged blobs or disrupt melee attackers

And it has nice wiping potential when you use forcebarrier against retreat direction - enemy retreating hero can get some more Sternguard hellfire damage or even grenade on the predictable direction

Gate of infinity is very nice too to save devastators from jumping squads or jumping squads retreat after shocking attack

Libby needs awesome micro but he shines in that way i wish i could see the top players use of him

Veil of time is good on TM melta too when you're chasing RB or Falcon

I want this devastator change ^^ because VR is my second favorite upgrade


librarian is one of the biggest reasons you lose all of your games against competent players, you buy it, you buy upgrades, your eco instantly breaks down while you jack off over a shiny moving wall
libby needs awesome micro but you only see mid-level and worse players using it because of it :)
LOCALgHOST
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby LOCALgHOST » Thu 31 Oct, 2019 10:45 pm

what should i buy instead?
RiceMuncher
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby RiceMuncher » Sat 02 Nov, 2019 10:27 am

Lobby is good -if abit fragile and weak compared to othee t2equivalents.
However it synergises with devs rlly well.

Razborback is not bad but imo requires more micro as av snares rekt it hard
PianoMan
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Re: SM and 1v1

Postby PianoMan » Sat 02 Nov, 2019 11:37 am

LOCALgHOST wrote:what should i buy instead?

depends, generally you want a drop pod with sternguard and a plasma gun/flamer on your first tac, then you buy a whirlwind or razorback on top of it, that's probably the safest build but it still gets rekt because sm are shit
what good is the synergy with devs when devs dont do jackshit and you have 0 reliable melee counters
i dont get how you can defend librarian when hes the reason you lose

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