My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
crog
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My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby crog » Fri 30 Aug, 2019 1:38 pm

First of all, thank you for your great work.

Adila was a great choice as balance leader, he seems to be always respectful and he has obviously put much work for elite.
Loved to play faction wars with you back in 2018 for eldar, you are a great guy.
However, since I (and many others decent/good players) are not in any private discord, I would appreciate if we could discuss some things more in public.

I will start with, what I have experienced as a player and witnessed in the league, is to be the most obvious overpowered stuff in my eyes.
Feel free to disagree.

PC
A hero which got outstanding skills for every situation, even for gen bashing.
Keeping him unupgraded is no problem, his bolter is doing dmg over time and bleeding the opponents units very easily.
A sword which is ignoring melee resistance, countering heros and every dedicated melle unit, turning it to zombies. Isn´t that too much for a t1 weapon?
Plague Fist, 145 melee heavy dmg per hit, with his ability reducing ranged dmg taken by 90% for 15 seconds.
He can heal himsels, increase his health by 600 hp and make him weapon imun knockback.
Touch of Nurgle, exploding units dealing dmg and healing the whole squat solution - > alt X
Noxious Cloud dealing 15 melee heavy damage per second to any enemy infantry and vehicles within its radius of 12 for 22 seconds. - alt x

To sum up he can stay and dominate in range, counter every possible melee build very easily, be a great wb like tank with knockback immunity, burn your gens and his globals can wipe your whole army.
With that, he dominates most MU´s, especially vs NIDS,Eldar,SM,Orks

Whenever someone plays really sweaty even in league the obvious choice is PC.
Do you disagree?

GM
Their repairing vehicles rate is twice as high as for a standard repairing unit.
Makes Sentinel for the opponent a bleeding model cancer without bleeding himself.
Makes Chimera harras very effective and hard to kill.
Makes the best tank, the leman russ almost unkillable, if used correctly.

Decrease the repairing rate and make it cost resources to do so!

Melta Storm Trooper
The most annoying unit, making vehicle play sometimes impossible vs ig. They are like a cheap fire dragon unit with a stun bomb like from warpspiders, coming from behind beeing infilitrated. That is too much.

Spotters
The cooldown for their ability is too short, countering setups and range blobs too easily.

Spore Mines Rush
I have seen this multiple times, making nids rushes unstoppable. A cheap unit countering melee units to easily and doing too much dmg on higher model units.

Terminators
They can enter landraiders now? I was not pleased to see that.


Stuff which got overnerfed from eldar perspective since it is my main:

Falcon
Speed reduction, Dmg on move reduction, Shield nerfed on a 400 hp t2 tank for 90 power was too much.
Due to its lower speed and low hp it is easily countered and not a viable unit vs orks for instance.

Warpspiders
Expensive unit which is bleeding too easily, the time for vehicle stun ability was halfed - > huge nerf

WSE
Once the best eldar hero, now the worst.
Many nerfs on this fella.

FS
Spirit Stone should give the fs extra xp when reviving, not as much as in retail but removing this kinda unique ability is harsh.
In the last patches :
Armour of fortune was nerfed (hp reg)
Rune armor was nerfed (last patch)
Doombringer was nerfed from 40 to 30 % dmg taken in order to make gravity blade and singing spear more viable as weapon choice.

I think Singing Spear needs more love, like giving fs weapon knockback immunity for a speed reduction or a vehicle stun for a short time ability(similar to power fist). Decreasing its power won´t make it more useful.

Gravity blade should be a power melee weapon for a dmg reduction. ( Respect the lore ffs)

In the end my thoughts for epic elite mod fights:
Improve super units like swarm lord, avatar and great unclean one.
Add bloodthirster remove lrd.
Add this big fat ork elephant stomping around remove battle wagon.
If somehow possible use models from dow1 or recreate them.

Just my 2 Cents.
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boss
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby boss » Fri 30 Aug, 2019 3:18 pm

Plague Champion
His Plague Sword ignoring melee resistance I guess is cos his damage with it don't scale with levels unlike every other weapon in the game so only 50 power melee dps all the time for 30 power I seems to be alright I would say.

Plague fist not only does the lowest damage of all the power fists but on a very slow hero, pestilent strike I guess can go down to like 10 secs if people want that?
Even tho noxious cloud dealing heavy melee damage it don't do more damage on retreating units least it's what I been told would be nice if this is true?
Would be a lot better with a indicator that you can see more clearly.
We all called pc brainded at some point or another but I don't think he's that op theses days.

Gm are being talked about alot but seems they want to make them cost more like 20 more rec which will only delayer your next rec by like 8 secs or so you get like 290 rec per min and that without points. Nerfing combos like you say would be alot better. tho making repairing cost would prob never happen if you want this to ig you have to make it for all race and then there tyranids ;)

Spotters more delayer between shells sounds good tbh idk what it is tbh I say 5 more sec?

Spore mines should be costing red I hope that would not only stop tyranids buying them straight away but will delayer next ones but adila saying no to that, prob never happen funny since gm las turret cost red to stop it being built at the start but hey 5 spore mines is fun to play vs :lol:
AdilaToday at 18:14
its pretty stupid to get a red cost on a starting unit
a base production unit
AdilaToday at 18:14
for the sake of consistence

Terminators could always get into landraiders since retribution so yea idk when you started to play.

Falcon has 500 heath to start with, its speed only gets reduced with the shield or does it? has 7 to start with Razorback has 8, Wartrukk 9, Chimera 8 and Rhino 8 too so it not that slow. Its accuracy was change on the move not damage cos it has 100% fotm it has change to 75%, only damage was nerf about it was to gens. I say falcon in a good spot still.

Warpspider since the nerfs they got killed this unit
Squad cost reduced from 440/40 to 435/35.
Squad and Exarch upkeep increased from 2.39 to 2.55.
Haywire Grenade cooldown increased from 40 to 48 seconds

Since they become 10 rec less to buy to start with you now pay more in turns of upkeep and torpid done for me the maths for me for a whole unit you now pay its 51 rec don't sound like a whole right, now lets say they been 5 mins they been 51X 5 in 255rec you lost and that's just for 5 mins for a whole unit.
Dat small upkeep change means you lose rec which you could have done something with and dats without you having to reinforce them btw, so now you get fucked for keeping them alive and if you have to reinforce them great changes but yes they need really help to make them viable and we can start with the dumb upkeep change.

The only nerfs the WSE got was in 2.6 least the ones that have the most impact i would say
•Teleport ability energy cost increased from 30 to 35 and cooldown increased from 10 seconds to 12 seconds.
•Default Melee damage increased from 25 to 32 with all default power blades.
•Default Ranged damage reduced from 40 to 35 damage per hit.

So in other words abit less teleporting, less range damage out of the gate and more melee damage. His range weapon gives him back the range damage so there was talk about making his improved targeters cheaper like 25 power i can maybe see that idk if he really that bad.

Farseer Armour of fortune never lost hp regen just the buff it got in 2.7.2 still the same.
Farseer:
Armour of Fortune health increase reduced from 200 to 150
Rune armor should have been made if farseer was killed the psychic storm would stop she already had to channel it so idk why they won't do this.
Doombringer increase damage by 40% was too much and was my change back a while ago 30% still very good for a t1 weapon, it wasn't cos making her other weapons better.
Singing spear a meme weapon least i would say so you always better off with doombringer.
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby hiveminion » Fri 30 Aug, 2019 3:34 pm

I think a good fix for Spore Mines would be to substitute the spreading poison for an area of effect damage over time, would reduce their killing potential but increase effectiveness versus garrisons and turrets.
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby Broodwich » Fri 30 Aug, 2019 4:47 pm

I think that while IG's eco probably needs to be looked at, their opening combat efficiency definitely needs to be as well. Removing GM's advanced repair rate would make it so a sentinel can't just sit in the line of fire and absorb everything off the bat. If it has to fall back, then GM actually have to start trading with ranged fire, which isn't as much of an issue.

IG definitely has a less OP t2, so tying the advanced repair to the commissar upgrade would be a nice power tax. If that's too much, you could make it unlock at t2 instead.

Either way, I think it is too much in early t1. No faction can match that until t1.5 or later, and that's after dumping a bunch of power into countering an opening unit that doesn't bleed

For spores, just set a red cost to them and they should be fine
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Asmon
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby Asmon » Fri 30 Aug, 2019 10:43 pm

WSE: he hasn't suffered much from direct nerfs, it's the shifting in the meta that made him weaker. What he needs are slightly better globals or a buff to warp spiders.

FS: her wargears are very much fine, the few nerfs were more or less justified. The only issue is indeed the singing spear, which is not a bad weapon on its own, only you will never be in a situation where it's needed, especially since other weapons are so good. An ability on it would be great.
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby Atlas » Sat 31 Aug, 2019 6:47 am

boss wrote: [words]

Since they become 10 rec less to buy to start with you now pay more in turns of upkeep and torpid done for me the maths for me for a whole unit you now pay its 51 rec don't sound like a whole right, now lets say they been 5 mins they been 51X 5 in 255rec you lost and that's just for 5 mins for a whole unit.

Dat small upkeep change means you lose rec which you could have done something with and dats without you having to reinforce them btw, so now you get fucked for keeping them alive and if you have to reinforce them great changes but yes they need really help to make them viable and we can start with the dumb upkeep change.

[more words]


Ah, you included the exarch, that's why it's 51. Idk, I just have a hard time really buying the upkeep change really doing anything considering old upkeep Warp Spiders would have cost you 239 req in the same span of 5 minutes. What are you doing with the extra 16 req over 5 minutes that's changing the state of the game so wildly?

That boils down to a change of about 3.2 req/minute for a whole WS squad rounded down to 3 because the engine rounds down. Reinf cost being shifted from 55/5 to 53/4 as well should also help mitigate the shift in upkeep. More so if you believe in the 5:1 req/power ratio which would say you have actually gained value with new spiders compared to old spiders if you drop even 1 WS a minute. (I myself find this argument debatable though).

I'm unconvinced this upkeep change fundamentally changes the strength of the unit either way. Whatever issues WS have will remain even with an upkeep revert imo.

I think your post is interesting in general though.

--------------

As for our OP crog, great post! It's nice to see more ideas being thrown out.
Atlas: Minister of Common Sense, Reasoning and Similar Sh*t
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Torpid
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby Torpid » Sat 31 Aug, 2019 7:00 am

^ Hear hear to Atlas' above post.

The upkeep changes are negligible and a revert of them not only is bad because it contradicts standardisation, but crucially just won't really help them. They'll still be horrible for your eco! So warp spiders need a more drastic rework.

Though... I shall @Atlas when you say the engine rounds down... Are you certain? I know for sure that the engine tracks none-integer values for damage on vehicles even though hp is only displayed in integers. Why does it not do this for resources too?
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boss
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby boss » Sat 31 Aug, 2019 11:26 am

Eldar units always have exarchs to enhance each unit it's how it works. Before the changes players brought warp spiders even if it was not often they was at least seen and used alright can you say that now after the changes no......

The we go on about standardisation puke I gone on about this loads of time's already and cba to go on about it again any why your wrong, not only did you standardise haywire grenade cooldown to match meta bombs for no balance reason just a random nerf and then you increase upkeep "cos standardisation will fix balance" your quote btw atlas. Both of these changes was not done cos balance but cos of that word I hate seeing so much hence why both of them are bad even if as you say a small amount.

Being 2 rec less to reinforce means next to nothing at all as by your reasons you have to lose warp spiders to get this refund and you don't even want to lose one let alone more cos good bye eco since you now pay more to maintain them with 50 each to reinforce.
Power cost was never a problem with them they cost what 40 power at start 20 with aspect and 15 with exarch so what 75 power for a whole upgrade unit sounds about right to me.

The upkeep change didn't affect the strength of warp spiders, it affect the eco of eldar overall if you brought them. As a combat unit they seen to do ok high dps, haywire which got a nerf by you guys and teleport but not much heath this was also increase awhile ago.

Like I said before the changes you did before was not done cos of balance but cos standardisation and It killed this unit, not only you don't know how upkeep works atm cos if we go by what atlas says the cheapest upkeep per pop will go to that 30 free pop which would been warp spiders going by the codex Tutorial

Upkeep is a Requisition tax that a player pays to maintain their army. Each race starts with 0 upkeep, and it will remain 0 as long as the Population threshold of 30 population is not exceeded. Every unit after this limit, however, will start to decrease the overall Requisition income by a certain amount. This amount is called "Upkeep". For example:

The upkeep of a single Guardsman model is 2.55. If you have five unupgraded Guardsman Squads (6 models each, taking up 1 pupulation per model), you will reach a total of 30 population and suffer no upkeep penalty. At this point, should you build a sixth Guardsman Squad, your Population count will rise to 36 and you will suffer a 15.3 income penalty for the extra 6 models you have over 30 population (2.55 × 6 = 15.3).

Regardless of the order the units are purchased in, the most expensive ones are always taxed first, while the units with cheapest upkeep go to the bottom of the list.

But people say it works differently so maybe you guys should find out how upkeep works before you do anymore changes
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby crog » Sat 31 Aug, 2019 1:33 pm

boss wrote:Falcon has 500 heath to start with, its speed only gets reduced with the shield or does it? has 7 to start with Razorback has 8, Wartrukk 9, Chimera 8 and Rhino 8 too so it not that slow. Its accuracy was change on the move not damage cos it has 100% fotm it has change to 75%, only damage was nerf about it was to gens. I say falcon in a good spot still.

Warpspider since the nerfs they got killed this unit
Squad cost reduced from 440/40 to 435/35.
Squad and Exarch upkeep increased from 2.39 to 2.55.
Haywire Grenade cooldown increased from 40 to 48 seconds

Since they become 10 rec less to buy to start with you now pay more in turns of upkeep and torpid done for me the maths for me for a whole unit you now pay its 51 rec don't sound like a whole right, now lets say they been 5 mins they been 51X 5 in 255rec you lost and that's just for 5 mins for a whole unit.
Dat small upkeep change means you lose rec which you could have done something with and dats without you having to reinforce them btw, so now you get fucked for keeping them alive and if you have to reinforce them great changes but yes they need really help to make them viable and we can start with the dumb upkeep change.

The only nerfs the WSE got was in 2.6 least the ones that have the most impact i would say
•Teleport ability energy cost increased from 30 to 35 and cooldown increased from 10 seconds to 12 seconds.
•Default Melee damage increased from 25 to 32 with all default power blades.
•Default Ranged damage reduced from 40 to 35 damage per hit.

So in other words abit less teleporting, less range damage out of the gate and more melee damage. His range weapon gives him back the range damage so there was talk about making his improved targeters cheaper like 25 power i can maybe see that idk if he really that bad.

Farseer Armour of fortune never lost hp regen just the buff it got in 2.7.2 still the same.
Farseer:
Armour of Fortune health increase reduced from 200 to 150
Rune armor should have been made if farseer was killed the psychic storm would stop she already had to channel it so idk why they won't do this.
Doombringer increase damage by 40% was too much and was my change back a while ago 30% still very good for a t1 weapon, it wasn't cos making her other weapons better.
Singing spear a meme weapon least i would say so you always better off with doombringer.


I disagree on this point, Falcon is not in a good spot anymore.
Due to it nerfs it is not meta anymore and hardly ever used. Falcon speed nerfs were too much, u cannot invest 90 power in a vehicle, which has the worst speed movement and is easily hunt down by any counter av.

I mean we are talking about an Eldar vehicle, they are known for its mobility. It should be at least at 6.5 or 7 speed like it was before! Maybe then, it will be used more. I will still rather get a wl for a little bit more of power, is much tankier has better av and not much slower than the transport.

You cannot reduce the shield absorption and the speed making it slow and vulnerable.
Yes it has 500 hp, wartruck has 550 hp with enhanced plate and 2 points more in speed. Ridiculous.
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby Bruce Campbell » Sat 31 Aug, 2019 2:02 pm

crog wrote:
boss wrote:Falcon has 500 heath to start with, its speed only gets reduced with the shield or does it? has 7 to start with Razorback has 8, Wartrukk 9, Chimera 8 and Rhino 8 too so it not that slow. Its accuracy was change on the move not damage cos it has 100% fotm it has change to 75%, only damage was nerf about it was to gens. I say falcon in a good spot still.

Warpspider since the nerfs they got killed this unit
Squad cost reduced from 440/40 to 435/35.
Squad and Exarch upkeep increased from 2.39 to 2.55.
Haywire Grenade cooldown increased from 40 to 48 seconds

Since they become 10 rec less to buy to start with you now pay more in turns of upkeep and torpid done for me the maths for me for a whole unit you now pay its 51 rec don't sound like a whole right, now lets say they been 5 mins they been 51X 5 in 255rec you lost and that's just for 5 mins for a whole unit.
Dat small upkeep change means you lose rec which you could have done something with and dats without you having to reinforce them btw, so now you get fucked for keeping them alive and if you have to reinforce them great changes but yes they need really help to make them viable and we can start with the dumb upkeep change.

The only nerfs the WSE got was in 2.6 least the ones that have the most impact i would say
•Teleport ability energy cost increased from 30 to 35 and cooldown increased from 10 seconds to 12 seconds.
•Default Melee damage increased from 25 to 32 with all default power blades.
•Default Ranged damage reduced from 40 to 35 damage per hit.

So in other words abit less teleporting, less range damage out of the gate and more melee damage. His range weapon gives him back the range damage so there was talk about making his improved targeters cheaper like 25 power i can maybe see that idk if he really that bad.

Farseer Armour of fortune never lost hp regen just the buff it got in 2.7.2 still the same.
Farseer:
Armour of Fortune health increase reduced from 200 to 150
Rune armor should have been made if farseer was killed the psychic storm would stop she already had to channel it so idk why they won't do this.
Doombringer increase damage by 40% was too much and was my change back a while ago 30% still very good for a t1 weapon, it wasn't cos making her other weapons better.
Singing spear a meme weapon least i would say so you always better off with doombringer.


I disagree on this point, Falcon is not in a good spot anymore.
Due to it nerfs it is not meta anymore and hardly ever used. Falcon speed nerfs were too much, u cannot invest 90 power in a vehicle, which has the worst speed movement and is easily hunt down by any counter av.

I mean we are talking about an Eldar vehicle, they are known for its mobility. It should be at least at 6.5 or 7 speed like it was before! Maybe then, it will be used more. I will still rather get a wl for a little bit more of power, is much tankier has better av and not much slower than the transport.

You cannot reduce the shield absorption and the speed making it slow and vulnerable.
Yes it has 500 hp, wartruck has 550 hp with enhanced plate and 2 points more in speed. Ridiculous.


Overnerfing things to the point where they are made redundant and nobody ever uses things anymore is literally the story of elite, thats why there was a recent uproar for a new balance lead. Get with the program.
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Asmon
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby Asmon » Sat 31 Aug, 2019 3:10 pm

Falcon at speed 8 would be too much, let me remind you its main cannon counters transports and is good against walkers.

To follow up on the WS: I also find the haywire nerf was unjustified and pretty much stupid. The whole point of it is not only to slow down the vehicle but mostly to disable its weapons, so you can actually ignore it for a while and focus the enemy infantry. Ofc it's also here to kill transports, but it is especially effective in negating Bloodcrushers and walkers in general and it is what made you get WS against them.

Now I'd like to highlight the fact we play this game for fun, so let me introduce a little tiny bit of fun into the WS playstyle with some propositions:
- Increase the melee damage of the whole squad. It will grant a better setup teams counter and more retreat kills (that will remain harder to get than just pew pew).
- To go even further beyond, melee upgrade on the whole squad! Much more melee damage, less ranged damage, no melee charge but a passive teleport as BL do. Anyone remember the dow2 vanilla intro?

Then as to reduce the weight that WS can have on your economy, we can come with several options, after everyone has understood that those upkeep changes are irrelevant at best (but the better word is bs). So options:
- 3 models instead of 4, same squad hp, slightly lower dps per model. Exarch hp bumped up too.
- 4 models, reinforce cost dramatically lower. Exarch hp increased.
- Exarch dies last (I hate that mechanism but since the obvious solution to it never seem to be implemented, hell why not)

Also we could try to alter the squad formation, with the leader surrounded by the 4 spiders. Not sure if our technopriests can manage it though.
Last edited by Asmon on Sun 01 Sep, 2019 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Adila
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby Adila » Sat 31 Aug, 2019 7:50 pm

So has anyone even noticed that ws are 16 pop + 4 on exarch ?
For comparison Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers are 12 pop + 3 on exarch.
I would suggest to make it 3 pop per model as well or/and rework them to be 3 models.
The upkeep change really doesnt change much as Atlas did try explain before, check other facts first pls instead of asking for pointless reverts.
I think this would be the best solutian here anyways.
One thing I do agree on strongly is to revert the haywire change.
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby Torpid » Sat 31 Aug, 2019 8:33 pm

I really don't like 3 models; I think it would look really peculiar and the exarch would likley just end up dying ove rand over. I'd rather the exarch upgrade was removed and his buffs were passively implemented into the squad. 80% of his hp shared across the models and 80% of his ranged/melee dps. Put his passive regen effect into the aspect upgrade and increase its cost a tad. Would certainly reduce their bleed a lot.
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby Lunatic » Sat 31 Aug, 2019 8:47 pm

Hey everyone! Impregnable started three threads where he gave his analysis of how upkeep can affect eco. The most important one was this one:
Improving Atlas/Torpid Model of Standardizationhttps://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5513

The big takeaway is that upkeep changes should be used sparingly in terms of balancing eco because:
1. It's difficult to quantify its complete effects on eco during an active game. (This is because the upkeep that you pay at any given time will constantly change (while above 30 Pop) as you build additional models and you bleed/lose models)
2. Upkeep is meant to be a catch-up mechanic by putting economic pressure on all players based on the population of their armies. It keeps things competitive by preventing any snowballing of eco from the player with a lead on the macro level. This works best when both parties are under the same rules.
3. There is usually a more appropriate balance option available, whether its changing Requisition costs, Upgrade costs, population size (especially), ect...

That being said, we do know how the rules of upkeep work and can make some generalizations about upkeep. To get everyone on the same page, the rules are:

Rule #1: Starting Req is 264, and you do not pay any upkeep costs until you surpass 30 Pop.

Rule #2: If you deploy any model(s) that would cause you to surpass 30 Pop, you pay an upkeep cost. That upkeep cost is equal to the upkeep cost of any model(s) that surpassed the 30 Pop limit.

Rule #3: If you lose any model(s) while over the 30 Pop limit, you are redeemed an upkeep cost equal to the upkeep cost of the lost model(s). If losing any model(s) would cause you to drop to or below the 30 Pop limit, you refer back to Rule #1.

As for generalization, I can give a few real quick:
-Having HIGH upkeep rate models in your initial 30 Pop is GOOD for the player. (You get away with not paying their higher rates, and they cause upkeep surplus later on)
-Having LOW upkeep rate models in your initial 30 Pop is BAD for the player. (You want your expensive models in your initial 30 Pop)
-Having HIGH upkeep rate models after 30 Pop is BAD for the player. (ex: Terminators cost around 2.92 Upkeep rate per Pop, adding up to around 62 total)
-Having LOW upkeep rate models after 30 Pop is GOOD for the player. (Their lower penalty means more Req stays with you)

There are several terms that came out of this, such as Upkeep Surplus, Upkeep Deficit, and Clipping. There was a lot to learn. Also, just to double check if the upkeep rules above still apply, I ran another test today and was able to get 264 Req income at 46 Pop (a huge improvement). I'm able to keep reaching these outcomes by manipulating Upkeep Surplus to offset the upkeep costs of 46 Pop (specifically the 16 pop over 30). So, at the very least, we have an understanding of upkeep enough to craft around it. Here is a screenshot (sorry for not providing one months ago):
Image
The models are (15) SS + (5) Justicar + (15) SS + (10) ISS + (1) Acolyte = 46 pop, so 16 pop over 30.
Therefore I needed 2.55 x (16) = 41 in Upkeep Surplus to generate this.
Last edited by Lunatic on Sun 01 Sep, 2019 1:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby Impregnable » Sun 01 Sep, 2019 12:29 am

In regards to upkeep, I can give advise on what can be done regarding Sentinel and Warp Spider.

1. Sentinel
- It is possible to heavily penalize 2 Sentinel build by IG by increasing upkeep on Sentinel. Increasing upkeep on sentinel will have more drastic nerf effect than any other unit in the game because of Clipping. Upkeep is based on each model and there is no squad based model that is over 5 population in T1. So the hardest Clipping one can suffer is basically the one caused by 5 pop. For example, when 26 pop exist and then one more tac model gets added, it cause total population to go over 30 free population by making it 31. In this case, the player suffers 4 pop worth of lost free upkeep bonus. The player was supposed to be able to get 30 pop worth of free upkeep yet because of one tac model clipping over 30, only 26 pop free upkeep is allowed. This is the worst case scenario for all factions except IG.
- Sentinel is 15 population and producing 2 will always cause a massive penalty for the IG player upkeep wise. IG starts with 6 pop GM squad and by producing 1 sentinel it is already 21 population and adding the second one sends the population over to 36. 30 - 21 = 9. Therefore, producing 2 sentinel this way is causing IG not able to utilize 9 pop worth of free population it could have got. Of course, if the IG player adds one more GM squad and add one sarge leader, it will fill up that 9 pop gap and producing the 2nd sentinel after making those additional purchases won't be a waste of 30 pop free upkeep but it already is a penalty that IG cannot do 2 sent build without harming their free upkeep. Then, why is IG eco so strong even when doing double sent? That is because the total upkeep of sentinel is too low.
- If we want to penalize 2 sent builds, the best way of doing it is increasing the upkeep on sentinel. Sentinel has upkeep rate of 1.7/pop. This is below the standard rate of 2.55 so even if IG player get Clipping penalty of 9 population by going GM + Sent + Sent build order, it doesn't mean much. By increasing the upkeep up to 2.55, we get the double benefit of increasing the upkeep rate and total upkeep at the same time. IG suffers more for keeping sentinel alive for longer and when Sent gets clipped with its massive 15 pop per model, IG player loses way more free upkeep one could have got. If we want to penalize having 2 sent even more, we can increase pop value of Sentinel as well. That cause worse Clipping and even more total upkeep for IG player. 2.55 upkeep rate + 17 pop Sentinel can pretty much make 2 Sentinel build an eco nightmare.
- Last option we have if we don't want to touch unit stats or population is reducing IG free population from 30 to 25. Because of Sent Clipping issue, this is more penalty to IG than any other factions.

2. Warp Spider
- Atlas is right about that upkeep rate change. 16 more req tax when the unit last 5 min is nothing. Considering how spiders bleed at not be at full strength constantly and that it is a T2 unit, the amount of additional tax a player has to pay is way less than what is speculated to be. A factions' economy do not get worse just by having 32 less total req over 10 min period of time.
- The best buff that can be given to a bleed prone unit like warp spider is way less reinforcement cost. 2 req less is not enough. Need to have at least 10 to 15 less req per reinforcement at least to have visible effect on overall eco. That being said, it is also possible to lower total upkeep now that spiders have rate of 2.55. Reducing the pop cost per model to 3 will cause the total upkeep to be reduced from 40.8 to 30.6. Reducing the total upkeep does not do much for a bleed prone unit but if the total upkeep reduction is that massive on scale, it can have a visible effect.
- Generally recommend reducing reinforcement cost approach first on a bleed prone unit. If the rein cost reduction is not enough, we can touch total upkeep like shown above.
- Same solution can be applied to any unit that is deemed bleed prone and considered UP like Storm Boys. This approach is most appropriate when we don't want to touch stats or abilities for such units.
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby Atlas » Sun 01 Sep, 2019 12:42 am

As a minor point of information, the falcon is already speed 7. So I don't know if it staying speed 7 would be broken or anything. Speed 8 is typical transport speed, wartrukk is speed 9.

Melee WS sound cool, ngl. Eldar don't really have a t2 melee unit besides the Autarch.

Sent upkeep increase is something worth exploring too. I think it's a unit where it being a special case can be justified considering just how much it impacts the game.
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby Lunatic » Sun 01 Sep, 2019 12:56 am

Sentinel is already showing 2.55 per pop, both in game and in patch notes. It was changed in 2.9.0:
Sentinel:
Upkeep increased from 1.7 to 2.55.
Stomp radius reduced from 10 to 8.
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby Impregnable » Sun 01 Sep, 2019 1:59 am

Lunatic wrote:Sentinel is already showing 2.55 per pop, both in game and in patch notes. It was changed in 2.9.0:
Sentinel:
Upkeep increased from 1.7 to 2.55.
Stomp radius reduced from 10 to 8.

- If that is the case, codex is not reading data properly. Still leaves below options intact.
1. Increase in pop value
- More clipping, more total upkeep
- Does not change upkeep rate
2. Increase in total upkeep by increasing rate
- Increase total upkeep of Sentinel
- Can cause upkeep Surplus when Sentinel is destroyed
3. Decrease free upkeep pop for IG
- Tyranids in original DOW2 had 21 free upkeep pop
- No need to change stats or upkeep if this approach is taken
- Probably the biggest nerf on IG eco
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby crog » Sun 01 Sep, 2019 11:27 am

Atlas wrote:As a minor point of information, the falcon is already speed 7. So I don't know if it staying speed 7 would be broken or anything. Speed 8 is typical transport speed, wartrukk is speed 9.

Melee WS sound cool, ngl. Eldar don't really have a t2 melee unit besides the Autarch.

Sent upkeep increase is something worth exploring too. I think it's a unit where it being a special case can be justified considering just how much it impacts the game.

Yes my bad, I wrote 6 meant 7.
It has been 7.5 if I remember correctly, still slower than all vehicles.
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby boss » Sun 01 Sep, 2019 12:40 pm

Crog
The only changes falcon got was these since 2.6
Falcon
•Speed reduced from 8 to 7.
•Energy Shield upgrade cost reduced from 100/35 to 100/30.
•Energy Shield upgrade no longer reduces speed by 1.
•Energy Shield damage conversion ratio reduced from 5hp/1energy to 3.5hp/1energy
Then in 2.8
Falcon:
Damage modifier on the eld_pulse_laser vs Building_Light reduced from 1.5 to 0.75. (venom_cannon_pvp)
Eld_dual_shuriken_catapults_fire_prism and eld_scatter_laser fire on the move accuracy reduced from 1 to .75.
Sight range reduced from 45 to 40.

So in other words used to have 8 now 7 but energy shield don't slow it down no more like it used to and some accuracy nerfs. The only real nerf it had was the energy shield damage conversion so unless your going to make a case for that not much else to say really.

Adila
Who wanted those warp spider changes in the first place????
Haven't warp spiders always been 16/20 pop with the Exarch??
Fire dragon are barely ever used and dark reapers do a whole diffent job don't compare them on pop.
As for upkeep stuff well Lunatic seemed to have explained it already so you can change back warp spider upkeep or "pointless reverts".
And lastly if you agree strongly about the haywire change why you let it happen?
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby crog » Sun 01 Sep, 2019 2:56 pm

boss wrote:Crog
The only changes falcon got was these since 2.6
Falcon
•Speed reduced from 8 to 7.
•Energy Shield upgrade cost reduced from 100/35 to 100/30.
•Energy Shield upgrade no longer reduces speed by 1.
•Energy Shield damage conversion ratio reduced from 5hp/1energy to 3.5hp/1energy
Then in 2.8
Falcon:
Damage modifier on the eld_pulse_laser vs Building_Light reduced from 1.5 to 0.75. (venom_cannon_pvp)
Eld_dual_shuriken_catapults_fire_prism and eld_scatter_laser fire on the move accuracy reduced from 1 to .75.
Sight range reduced from 45 to 40.

So in other words used to have 8 now 7 but energy shield don't slow it down no more like it used to and some accuracy nerfs. The only real nerf it had was the energy shield damage conversion so unless your going to make a case for that not much else to say really.

Adila
Who wanted those warp spider changes in the first place????
Haven't warp spiders always been 16/20 pop with the Exarch??
Fire dragon are barely ever used and dark reapers do a whole diffent job don't compare them on pop.
As for upkeep stuff well Lunatic seemed to have explained it already so you can change back warp spider upkeep or "pointless reverts".
And lastly if you agree strongly about the haywire change why you let it happen?

That's what I argue, this speed nerf was too much to start without shield. Falcon is free kill.
How often do you see it used at all after these nerfs?

Fire Dragons dmg got also nerfed after you whined about their gen power bashing potential @boss
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby Nurland » Sun 01 Sep, 2019 11:39 pm

Falcon a free kill now? Certainly does not feel like it / has not felt like it after the nerf.
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby Bruce Campbell » Mon 02 Sep, 2019 11:41 am

Nurland wrote:Falcon a free kill now? Certainly does not feel like it / has not felt like it after the nerf.


Depends i suppose, for SM and Chaos its still pretty difficult to deal with, for Tyranids and Orks the moment you see your opponent went Falcon you should be laughing because you just won the game
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby crog » Mon 02 Sep, 2019 2:26 pm

Bruce Campbell wrote:
Nurland wrote:Falcon a free kill now? Certainly does not feel like it / has not felt like it after the nerf.


Depends i suppose, for SM and Chaos its still pretty difficult to deal with, for Tyranids and Orks the moment you see your opponent went Falcon you should be laughing because you just won the game

And for IG ofc.
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby Torpid » Mon 02 Sep, 2019 7:31 pm

How do tyranids kill a falcon when they have no snares? It takes venom brood multiple shots to kill it. Not really particularly easy with no snares. Only the LA can do that with his busted venom drop. But venom brood are set to get dps nerfs regardless.

SM don't do so bad since they get ASM -> melta, it just costs them obscene amounts. Trukk busta combo smashes falcons, and barrage on its own from TBs can be brutal, but that's the meta - you go wraithlord vs orks, that was even a retail thing.

IG don't do particularly well if you get one in late T2 either, though I'd personally get a wraithlord just so you don't need to babysit the falcon with rangers. But again the meta says not to go for a falcon, or wraithlord for that matter, as an early T2 purchase vs IG.

I think the falcon is more than fine. Gen bashing so quickly and being so mobile on a race that already is so high dps is a great synergy. And the fact it so easily neuters other transports/the bloodcrusher is great strategically.
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby boss » Mon 02 Sep, 2019 11:32 pm

Torpid wrote:How do tyranids kill a falcon when they have no snares? It takes venom brood multiple shots to kill it. Not really particularly easy with no snares. Only the LA can do that with his busted venom drop. But venom brood are set to get dps nerfs regardless.

SM don't do so bad since they get ASM -> melta, it just costs them obscene amounts. Trukk busta combo smashes falcons, and barrage on its own from TBs can be brutal, but that's the meta - you go wraithlord vs orks, that was even a retail thing.

IG don't do particularly well if you get one in late T2 either, though I'd personally get a wraithlord just so you don't need to babysit the falcon with rangers. But again the meta says not to go for a falcon, or wraithlord for that matter, as an early T2 purchase vs IG.

I think the falcon is more than fine. Gen bashing so quickly and being so mobile on a race that already is so high dps is a great synergy. And the fact it so easily neuters other transports/the bloodcrusher is great strategically.



You forgetting tyranids get thorax swarm aka tyranid haywire nade might not be zoan snare but least tyranids get a reliable short range snare thank boss btw ;).
What make's the la venom brood drop broken or busted as you say you trade 15 power and build time for 150 red? I don't use it that much so idk red cost off by heart, along with the dps nerf again thank me for that drop should be fine.

Sm av is hmmmmmmmmm dats all im saying.
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby Bruce Campbell » Tue 03 Sep, 2019 1:08 pm

Torpid wrote:How do tyranids kill a falcon when they have no snares? .


Dont be a massive dumb fuck your entire life please

I will presume you wrote that while being on anesthetic
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby WoehlkeTAD » Wed 04 Sep, 2019 1:05 am

Can we fix SM scouts such that in their base form if you *right* click on a target all three models will position themselves to shoot. Currently it seems like you need to deliberately move them in closer only to expose the model which had the range originally. It's like the scouts are currently stuck on a sniper or setup team stance even though they all have bolters.

If I am doing something wrong to make all three models attack at their maximum range please let me know, this is driving me nuts.
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby Torpid » Wed 04 Sep, 2019 3:23 am

Bruce Campbell wrote:
Torpid wrote:How do tyranids kill a falcon when they have no snares? .


Dont be a massive dumb fuck your entire life please

I will presume you wrote that while being on anesthetic


TSWB is extremely short range and rippers need to be meleeing the falcon. The only exceptional is the LA since he can rather obnoxiously pincer attack you with ease dropping a venom brood behind you out of LoS whilst rippers/TG/AG Wars or TSWB close in from the front. Wraithlord's are slower, so sure, don't bother with them, but a falcon? Git gud Brucey.
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Re: My questions/thoughts to the balance leaders

Postby Bestn00b » Thu 05 Sep, 2019 6:42 pm

Incase you forgot,

Venoms can fire on the move, and with capilary tower, they move faster than any vehicle in the game. Just sayin lul.

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