Karskin but Worth For every Situation

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
sharkk
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Karskin but Worth For every Situation

Postby sharkk » Sat 03 Aug, 2019 3:00 am

First of all this is MY impression and i might be wrong id like to discuss with you people and give me your though about this post :D dont judge just discuss

It is just me or the Karskins are kinda useless...well except the GL :-?.With Hellgun they have less damage then a Stormtrooper squad i mean they have a lil more damage then the stormtroopers but its a T3 unit and ST are like T2 .. untill you can make Karskins you have your ST-ers level 2-3 maybe 4 and they punch a lot more damage then a Karskin unit with 3-4 levels ahead..and the Karskins have awfull accuracy ... i ran some tests on units/structures etc:
1 ST unit lvl 1 and 1 unit of karskins lvl 1 they both attack at the same time a generator...ST destroyed first
Same story vs a Static Slugga boiz squad ( Dunno why i get this result on paper they have better damage but i guess they miss some shoots or dont know)

-I know they can be good with the GL but its sad to see a cool unit in T3 only for one single role and with the GL they become just a distrupt unit the dps is horrible,and i dont think they can win vs a T2 dedicated range unit from any race :-? even the ST with Assault kit can kill em becouse of the Infiltrate ability that make them take 20% less damage but im not that sure.

-they are leaded into combat by a GUARDSMAN!!!!a FKING GUARDSMAN xD :lol: :lol: ,Really the sarge of an ELITE Squad veteran of many battle is a Sergent Guardsman that survived a battle and he became a sarge,dunno if its just me but that guy destroy all the vibe of the squad :D he even has the vanilla skin xD (in dow 1 the sarge of the Karskins was a badass that soots his hellgun with one HAND that how badass he was ...)Imagine a Terminator Squad with a Scout as a Squad leader :D or a Sternguard veteran or Vanguard veteran with a Scout as a Sarge

-My Sugestion: - Give em 3 upgrades + a Sarge the player can only choose 1 kit and the sarge(Like Stormtroopers):-Infantry Kit This kit will Upgrade the Karskins Hellguns(more damage) and give em the ability "Genetic Enhancement" an passive ability (From DOW 1) that give the Karskin some health per model
- Grenadier Kit - Same as the current grenade luncher but it will give an ability like the Heretics have
-Support Kit - Give em the Smoke Grenades/Flashbangs and the current SPRINT ability
-Reskin the Sarge with a Regular Karskin with no helmed or just a regular Karskin or something that suit em'.
- Id like to suggest a Stealth Operation kit but that role is for the stormtroopers :D and they are perfect as they are and i dont wanna have something that will take that from em
-Make the sergent have the same range as the regular Karskin :D dunno if you notice but he has way less range then a regular model..or he prefer to go up close and personal vs a Noob Squad dunno but he is going closer to the target before he shoot

With this Rework they will be worth the buy and they will make a diference on the battlefield like any T3 unit should (Without making em to OP )

Thank you and hope to see you on the battlefield :D
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Re: Karskin but Worth For every Situation

Postby Impregnable » Sat 03 Aug, 2019 1:00 pm

Elite Mod is 1. High Skill / 2. 1v1 / 3. Balance Mod. What this entails for your suggestions is as follows.
1. No lore based suggestions
- Lore accuracy is at the very last on the priority list. Balancing takes priority number 1 and bug fixing is closely behind. When there are conflicting demands, these priorities must be enforced.
- Regarding that sarge leader for Kasrkin, what makes you think it is a guardsman? You need to be more descriptive how it looks like a guardsman. Clearly the model is not the same as GM sarge in game. If you want a better model, would be better to bring some picture of a board game model that you think is ideal and do know that this is last of the priorities for it is a lore based suggestion.

2. No team game based suggestions
- 1v1 takes absolute priority for balancing. If this suggestion is team game based, it is highly like to be not accepted. This is because in order for team game suggestion to make through, you have to prove that this will not hurt 1v1 balance in any possible way.
- Suggestions that improve 1v1 but hurt team game is always accepted while the vice versa has never been allowed. In order to change Kasrkin your way or any other way, the advocating person should know 1v1 thoroughly. 1v1 and team game environment are completely different. Units that are considered trash in team game is often extremely useful in 1v1 and the opposite is also true.
- 1st thing you need to prove is how Karskin is UP in 1v1 in a very matriculate way with replays and testimony from some high skill players.

3. No low skill based suggestions
- If a high skill player can counter something and below skill players cannot due to lack of skill, suggestions to change it so that below high skill players can counter it with less micro is generally not accepted. Top tier balancing always takes priority.
- You need to prove that Karskin change is required not due to lack of skills or awareness but having to do with something fundamentally bad in unit design for 1v1.
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Re: Karskin but Worth For every Situation

Postby Torpid » Sat 03 Aug, 2019 4:31 pm

They're way way way tankier than stormtroopers which is very influential vs things like terminators which have huge piercing dps and will melt storms in seconds, or out-shooting tyranid/ork ranged blobs.

That said they are basically just beefier guardsmen that don't repair. I'd like the kasrkin sarge to be able to repair becaue he still seems mediocre to me and then that makes kasrkin have that niche as a replacement to guardsmen in the late-game akin to kommandoes with shootas.
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Re: Karskin but Worth For every Situation

Postby Broodwich » Sun 04 Aug, 2019 2:11 am

currently the only thing i find them useful for is the gl. They were cancer before with super bursty dps, maybe improve their utility by giving them better abilities?

Krak nade is pretty underwhelming
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Re: Karskin but Worth For every Situation

Postby Oddnerd » Mon 05 Aug, 2019 2:22 pm

I agree they are lackluster. The closest non-IG comparison I would make to them are Ork Kommandoes - an amazing T3 unit that is the pinnacle of general purpose infantry (anti-inf, melee-competent, anti-vehicle, infiltration, fast cap, wide selection of spells.... just an awesome unit). The problem is that making them general purpose would involve giving them abilities that make them redundant with STs (if you wanted infiltrate or a vehicle snare) or catachans (if you wanted crowd control/area denial/or support spells).

This is just random ideas, but maybe making their damage inferno would be something to separate them from the rest. That and giving back the melta gun, a weapon that made them fill the general purpose role well. The problem is I use them so infrequently it's hard to say how fair any of that is.
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Re: Karskin but Worth For every Situation

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Mon 05 Aug, 2019 6:08 pm

I don't know any T3 unit that feels this empty, or like a replacement for another unit that was lost before T3. Any T3 unit in game are like a go-for thing, always a stable part of their arsenal. But not Kasrikin. They should be better than just tankier GM or SS.

Or, I don't know any T3 unit that is weaker in ranged / melee than a T1 / T2 unit that is upgraded even with levels. But Kasrikin are that weak.

What Kasrikin really needs is to be strong. Like, really strong. No bullshit abilites, no passive random ass buffs or anything. All they need is to be good at shooting things down, because that's what made them so awsome back in DoW 1.

Easiest solution is to buff their plasma guns (or just increase the number of plasma guns), and making them an anti-Terminator / Nobz unit. Because lets be honest, their plasma guns are doing almost same amount of dps as a GM with plasma guns at total, and this is just unacceptable. A T3 units can not be this weak.

Yes yes yes, they are tanky, faster capping, grenades and stuff, but they just don't pay off, do they? We are talking about T3, where shit goes crazy. I need a unit that kills stuff in T3, not a tanky Guardsmen that caps faster.

I say, go back to DoW 1 formula. Limit them to 1, buff their weapons (specially plasma) and it will be alright.
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Re: Karskin but Worth For every Situation

Postby Impregnable » Tue 06 Aug, 2019 12:37 am

Before any idea can be pursued, as I have said in my reply post, one must know how Kasrkins are performing in 1v1. They getting overshadowed by Leman in team game is a no doubt a thing but 1v1 is absolutely different. Units and Wargears useless in team games are often overperforming in 1v1. Please, get some testimonies from 1v1 players. Throwing out random ideas won't work.
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Re: Karskin but Worth For every Situation

Postby Broodwich » Tue 06 Aug, 2019 7:23 am

I feel like if they had detection and/or their krak nade got buffed somehow, they'd be much more worth it.

Comparing them with Kommandos isn't really fair.. they do everything :P
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Re: Karskin but Worth For every Situation

Postby sharkk » Tue 06 Aug, 2019 8:29 am

1.i dont need to prove to you that kasrkin sergent has a lower range then every other model in the squad :)and often will go close distance with the enemy and have the squad wiped or take losses you just have to play a game with em and you will see for yourself...and the model did you play vanilla dow2 retribution? its the same model of the Guardsman Sergent :D i dont have to put a picture :D just make like all other units a regular model without a helmet...
2.Really bro? did you see anyone use kasrkin in high level play using everything else except GL?and only for the purpose of a knockback as a Tier 3 unit?
did you see em shine or make a diference without a grenade luncher?...no i have not...and im watching tons of high level replays and not even once i have seen someone there useing Hellguns ore Plasma even vs Space Marine 90% of the time people go for GL and now lets be serious :D GL on Kasrkin are balanced , and thats why people buys em cuz the rest of the kit is sh!t...people say on paper is ok and bla bla but in game they really are crappy vs tier 3 units...they are like 6 man squad guardsman in tier 1 shooting a CSM or Tact.There is no need for a proves or videos here :D you just have to go in game go play a game as IG...go to tier 3 buy a Kasrkin squad,dont upgrade em with GL and BOOM see how HOLLOW they are:-sarge is retarded and run from the squad cuz he dont have enough range or he desire to engage up close and personal
-no real personality...dunno they feel Hollow just like a moded unit :D
-Damage for tier 3 is .... guardsman tier 1 level...(6 man squad )
3.There is nothing here to really think about it i didint gave em GAME CHANGING rolles or extra mechanics that can destroy the game balance i just sugest ... let people choose :) not force people to go GL when you buy Kasrkins... A Small damage and health bonus if you go infantry kit (as how low Kasrkin dmg is now there will not be a problem in that),Grenadier Kit...its the fking same so you cant tell me this needs testing...support kit yea its kinda gamechanging a good flashbang or smoke screen in late game but there you can improvise...

ORK:Kommando (Excelent unit) Gitz (Tons of Range units) NOBZ (melee experts) Tank ( Decent High damage/mobility low hp) and the Rolla (Super unit) Something of everything you need dakka? you have you need tanks? you have you need Melee you HAVE!
Chaos:Terminaotrs (DAKKA or melee they offer both),Tank? Yes! Super tank?YES, A BIG DEMON? YES PLEASE! again they can go who they please
Space marines: same story...Terminators or assault terminators if you are FC,Tank? Yes, Super tank Yes please
Tyranids:Carnifex(Range/Supression/Melee all in one no problem),Super creature? oky no problem Swarm lord for you,Need some assasination? Lictor for you,Or maybe some AOE Then you can choose neurothrope
Eldar: Seer Council:Melee ,Tank? Fire Prism ,Wanna control a God? why not Avatar then
Grey Knights:Paladins.../GN Terminators..../LR Crusader
Imperial Guard:Leman russ ( Nice tank worth every $ ),Baneblade (Decent super unit...99% of the time he die in pain cuz he cant be supported becouse IG cant support it and terrible slow),Kasrkin Squad Glorified Guardsman that cant kill something in t3 even if em life depends on it

The Point here is all other races has the liberty to choose...the enemy is going heavy AV...oky il go Terminators or...A big demon or seer council or nobz or sneaky kommandos and kinda counter that...or my enemy is going 2x HWT and il buy a tank and deal with it or...maybe he will upgrade his HWT into a lassgun(1 or both) and loose the supression or some supression...then i my Infantry can go in and have a change...with IG you have just one option and one at all...Leman Russ and you are force to play leman even if you like it or no...even if the enemy has strong AV.(i guess you can buy ogryns but they loose vs everything in T3...)My point here was...if they can make Kasrkins decent in t3 you can make IG more flexible...at this point in a 1v1 vs an IG you will go get some AV becouse in T3 a leman russ will 101% apear even if the IG player whants it or not becouse he has nothing else good there..and i dont think thats balanced

well matters not i think Kasrkins are overnerfed and you just have to play em or watch some replays to see...they dont shine they dont make the enemy say "HEY he has kasrkins i need to think how to engage" NOPE..how you do when you see nobz on the field? or terminators? Seer council? ..you say OK i need to becarefull now cuz one mistake is going to destroy my game..what do you say when a Kasrkin is on the field ? " Its that a....Guardsman with a fancy helmet?"
Well to finish this...Kaskrin are kinda bad they fullfill only one role and that role is NOT for a t3 unit to furfill...my sugestion will not change 1v1 or teamgame they will make it more fun and more challenging for both players

EDIT :-They are not bad they are a joke :D Tested with my friend :D in a game lvl 3 Kasrkin with leader vs a lvl 3 Slugga boi with burna and leader..."Kasrkin start shooting at maximum range,slugga boiz start coming for em...when the slugga boiz made contact in melee with em i press the retreat button...Slugga boiz Health was 1200/1600 so my kasrkin a T3 unit did in 4-5 volleys (6 men squad) of fire to a tier 1 unit and they did 400 damage :D
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Re: Karskin but Worth For every Situation

Postby Impregnable » Wed 07 Aug, 2019 7:23 am

Would be nice if you don't put in all those imogies. Making use of too many makes it a clutter to read and also makes it hard to take your suggestions seriously. We have seen too many threads turning into shout matches cause of provocative writings. It may sound overly careful but better safe than sorry.
sharkk wrote: just make like all other units a regular model without a helmet...

- Fair enough, that would be easy to do. That is what I meant by being more descriptive. However, anything related to modelling and skins are on the last of the patch priorities so don't be surprised if this doesn't make it into next patch straight away. It will take time but can certainly be done within this year at least.

sharkk wrote: 1.i dont need to prove to you that kasrkin sergent has a lower range then every other model in the squad :)and often will go close distance with the enemy and have the squad wiped or take losses you just have to play a game with em and you will see for yourself
2.Really bro? did you see anyone use kasrkin in high level play using everything else except GL?and only for the purpose of a knockback as a Tier 3 unit?
did you see em shine or make a diference without a grenade luncher?...no i have not...and im watching tons of high level replays and not even once i have seen someone there useing Hellguns ore Plasma even vs Space Marine 90% of the time people go for GL and now lets be serious :D GL on Kasrkin are balanced , and thats why people buys em cuz the rest of the kit is sh!t...people say on paper is ok and bla bla but in game they really are crappy vs tier 3 units...they are like 6 man squad guardsman in tier 1 shooting a CSM or Tact.There is no need for a proves or videos here :D you just have to go in game go play a game as IG...go to tier 3 buy a Kasrkin squad,dont upgrade em with GL and BOOM see how HOLLOW they are:-sarge is retarded and run from the squad cuz he dont have enough range or he desire to engage up close and personal
-no real personality...dunno they feel Hollow just like a moded unit :D

ORK:Kommando (Excelent unit) Gitz (Tons of Range units) NOBZ (melee experts) Tank ( Decent High damage/mobility low hp) and the Rolla (Super unit) Something of everything you need dakka? you have you need tanks? you have you need Melee you HAVE!
Chaos:Terminaotrs (DAKKA or melee they offer both),Tank? Yes! Super tank?YES, A BIG DEMON? YES PLEASE! again they can go who they please
Space marines: same story...Terminators or assault terminators if you are FC,Tank? Yes, Super tank Yes please
Tyranids:Carnifex(Range/Supression/Melee all in one no problem),Super creature? oky no problem Swarm lord for you,Need some assasination? Lictor for you,Or maybe some AOE Then you can choose neurothrope
Eldar: Seer Council:Melee ,Tank? Fire Prism ,Wanna control a God? why not Avatar then
Grey Knights:Paladins.../GN Terminators..../LR Crusader
Imperial Guard:Leman russ ( Nice tank worth every $ ),Baneblade (Decent super unit...99% of the time he die in pain cuz he cant be supported becouse IG cant support it and terrible slow),Kasrkin Squad Glorified Guardsman that cant kill something in t3 even if em life depends on it

The Point here is all other races has the liberty to choose...the enemy is going heavy AV...oky il go Terminators or...A big demon or seer council or nobz or sneaky kommandos and kinda counter that...or my enemy is going 2x HWT and il buy a tank and deal with it or...maybe he will upgrade his HWT into a lassgun(1 or both) and loose the supression or some supression...then i my Infantry can go in and have a change...with IG you have just one option and one at all...Leman Russ and you are force to play leman even if you like it or no...even if the enemy has strong AV.(i guess you can buy ogryns but they loose vs everything in T3...)My point here was...if they can make Kasrkins decent in t3 you can make IG more flexible...at this point in a 1v1 vs an IG you will go get some AV becouse in T3 a leman russ will 101% apear even if the IG player whants it or not becouse he has nothing else good there..and i dont think thats balanced

well matters not i think Kasrkins are overnerfed and you just have to play em or watch some replays to see...they dont shine they dont make the enemy say "HEY he has kasrkins i need to think how to engage" NOPE..how you do when you see nobz on the field? or terminators? Seer council? ..you say OK i need to becarefull now cuz one mistake is going to destroy my game..what do you say when a Kasrkin is on the field ? " Its that a....Guardsman with a fancy helmet?"
Well to finish this...Kaskrin are kinda bad they fullfill only one role and that role is NOT for a t3 unit to furfill...my sugestion will not change 1v1 or teamgame they will make it more fun and more challenging for both players

Kasrkin is bad because
1. Kasrkin Sarge has too short of a range and makes entire squad not fire at maximum range which leads to bleed.
2. Kasrkin are useless without GL
Why
2.1 Not enough DPS for a Tier 3 unit
- Damage for tier 3 is .... guardsman tier 1 level...(6 man squad )
- They really are crappy vs tier 3 units...they are like 6 man squad guardsman in tier 1 shooting a CSM or Tact
2.2 Other kits are not used
- did you see em shine or make a diference without a grenade luncher?...no i have not...and im watching tons of high level replays and not even once i have seen someone there useing Hellguns ore Plasma even vs Space Marine 90% of the time people go for GL

As a result
- IG has no choice in T3 Kasrkin is not worth over Leman which makes IG T3 not flexible

Conclusion
- IG needs more option in T3 by buffing Kasrkin.

- Let me make myself clear on this one. I was merely pointing out basic standards you have to keep in mind when making a suggestion that can affect balance. I have not said anything about Kasrkin needing buff or nerf.
- Kasrkin needed rework for sometime but you need to first ask other questions as to why they were not buffed further.
1. What if IG is so strong in other tiers that even that they have to given a penalty in T3 by making only Leman an effective choice?
2. Kasrkins are way cheaper than most of other T3 squads you mention. Kommandos and D cannons are only ones that can be compared closely to it price wise. Is it really fair to compare them to more expensive T3?
3. Also, there is always a possibility of players not discovering their right use yet. Not all uploaded games on elite server represent all the games played by players. There are a lot of games played without ESL reporter turned on. Just because you watched a ton of replays uploaded, does not mean your conclusion is right.
4. 1v1 IG dominance
- This is primarily why we need to get testimony from top tier players on whether buffing Kasrkin is going to be allowed or not. IG despite getting constant nerfs still dominates 1v1 scene. Even slight change can cause a huge break in balance if it is done on a faction with good win rate already. Mind you that this dominance is with 2 so called useless unit in T3 roaster while all other factions having different choices like you mention.

sharkk wrote: 3.There is nothing here to really think about it i didint gave em GAME CHANGING rolles or extra mechanics that can destroy the game balance i just sugest ... let people choose :) not force people to go GL when you buy Kasrkins... A Small damage and health bonus if you go infantry kit (as how low Kasrkin dmg is now there will not be a problem in that),Grenadier Kit...its the fking same so you cant tell me this needs testing...support kit yea its kinda gamechanging a good flashbang or smoke screen in late game but there you can improvise...

-My Sugestion: - Give em 3 upgrades + a Sarge the player can only choose 1 kit and the sarge(Like Stormtroopers):-Infantry Kit This kit will Upgrade the Karskins Hellguns(more damage) and give em the ability "Genetic Enhancement" an passive ability (From DOW 1) that give the Karskin some health per model
- Grenadier Kit - Same as the current grenade luncher but it will give an ability like the Heretics have
-Support Kit - Give em the Smoke Grenades/Flashbangs and the current SPRINT ability
-Reskin the Sarge with a Regular Karskin with no helmed or just a regular Karskin or something that suit em'.
- Id like to suggest a Stealth Operation kit but that role is for the stormtroopers :D and they are perfect as they are and i dont wanna have something that will take that from em

- Not a unreasonable request but first need to see what other top tier players have to say about buffing it.

sharkk wrote:EDIT :-They are not bad they are a joke :D Tested with my friend :D in a game lvl 3 Kasrkin with leader vs a lvl 3 Slugga boi with burna and leader..."Kasrkin start shooting at maximum range,slugga boiz start coming for em...when the slugga boiz made contact in melee with em i press the retreat button...Slugga boiz Health was 1200/1600 so my kasrkin a T3 unit did in 4-5 volleys (6 men squad) of fire to a tier 1 unit and they did 400 damage :D

- Bad example. Leveled Slugga would even tear apart ranged Termies. In DOW2 ranged squad no matter how leveled have either hard time or get slaughtered by dedicated melee if they let them get close. Kasrkin needed rework for sometimes but this observation cannot be base of the change.
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Re: Karskin but Worth For every Situation

Postby Lunatic » Wed 07 Aug, 2019 3:37 pm

There was double plasma Kasrkin used in a recent Indrid Casts Faction Wars video of IG vs SM (Indrid Casts Dawn of War 2 - Faction Wars 2019 | Space Marines vs Imperial Guard #2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ptTgo37spU).

It is a 3v3, but it looked like it had very relevant info for this thread.

Around 20:08 you can identify them as you start to see their distinct Hotshot Lasguns. The next couple of minutes shows their slightly longer range, how their two Sergeants have a weird tendency to move ahead of the squad, how much damage they deal to Terminators, how their heavy infantry armor helps them shrug of advancing Terminator bolter fire (as Torpid mentioned), and how their mobility and speed boost lets them quickly disengage (and avoid an orbital strike or two). There were no Kasrkin model loses.
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Re: Karskin but Worth For every Situation

Postby boss » Fri 09 Aug, 2019 2:09 pm

Karskin been ass for a long time, they were only worth when they had weapon expertise back in the old days and now they are just a meme unit you always want lemans now and just leave them on overwatch.
Unless you bring back weapon expertise they will always be that shit t3 unit next to your lemans and that about it.
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Re: Karskin but Worth For every Situation

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Fri 09 Aug, 2019 8:35 pm

boss wrote:Karskin been ass for a long time, they were only worth when they had weapon expertise back in the old days and now they are just a meme unit you always want lemans now and just leave them on overwatch.
Unless you bring back weapon expertise they will always be that shit t3 unit next to your lemans and that about it.


I can't remember that upgrade. What was it doing?
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Re: Karskin but Worth For every Situation

Postby sharkk » Fri 09 Aug, 2019 9:47 pm

sharkk wrote: 1.i dont need to prove to you that kasrkin sergent has a lower range then every other model in the squad :)and often will go close distance with the enemy and have the squad wiped or take losses you just have to play a game with em and you will see for yourself
2.Really bro? did you see anyone use kasrkin in high level play using everything else except GL?and only for the purpose of a knockback as a Tier 3 unit?
did you see em shine or make a diference without a grenade luncher?...no i have not...and im watching tons of high level replays and not even once i have seen someone there useing Hellguns ore Plasma even vs Space Marine 90% of the time people go for GL and now lets be serious :D GL on Kasrkin are balanced , and thats why people buys em cuz the rest of the kit is sh!t...people say on paper is ok and bla bla but in game they really are crappy vs tier 3 units...they are like 6 man squad guardsman in tier 1 shooting a CSM or Tact.There is no need for a proves or videos here :D you just have to go in game go play a game as IG...go to tier 3 buy a Kasrkin squad,dont upgrade em with GL and BOOM see how HOLLOW they are:-sarge is retarded and run from the squad cuz he dont have enough range or he desire to engage up close and personal
-no real personality...dunno they feel Hollow just like a moded unit :D

ORK:Kommando (Excelent unit) Gitz (Tons of Range units) NOBZ (melee experts) Tank ( Decent High damage/mobility low hp) and the Rolla (Super unit) Something of everything you need dakka? you have you need tanks? you have you need Melee you HAVE!
Chaos:Terminaotrs (DAKKA or melee they offer both),Tank? Yes! Super tank?YES, A BIG DEMON? YES PLEASE! again they can go who they please
Space marines: same story...Terminators or assault terminators if you are FC,Tank? Yes, Super tank Yes please
Tyranids:Carnifex(Range/Supression/Melee all in one no problem),Super creature? oky no problem Swarm lord for you,Need some assasination? Lictor for you,Or maybe some AOE Then you can choose neurothrope
Eldar: Seer Council:Melee ,Tank? Fire Prism ,Wanna control a God? why not Avatar then
Grey Knights:Paladins.../GN Terminators..../LR Crusader
Imperial Guard:Leman russ ( Nice tank worth every $ ),Baneblade (Decent super unit...99% of the time he die in pain cuz he cant be supported becouse IG cant support it and terrible slow),Kasrkin Squad Glorified Guardsman that cant kill something in t3 even if em life depends on it

The Point here is all other races has the liberty to choose...the enemy is going heavy AV...oky il go Terminators or...A big demon or seer council or nobz or sneaky kommandos and kinda counter that...or my enemy is going 2x HWT and il buy a tank and deal with it or...maybe he will upgrade his HWT into a lassgun(1 or both) and loose the supression or some supression...then i my Infantry can go in and have a change...with IG you have just one option and one at all...Leman Russ and you are force to play leman even if you like it or no...even if the enemy has strong AV.(i guess you can buy ogryns but they loose vs everything in T3...)My point here was...if they can make Kasrkins decent in t3 you can make IG more flexible...at this point in a 1v1 vs an IG you will go get some AV becouse in T3 a leman russ will 101% apear even if the IG player whants it or not becouse he has nothing else good there..and i dont think thats balanced

well matters not i think Kasrkins are overnerfed and you just have to play em or watch some replays to see...they dont shine they dont make the enemy say "HEY he has kasrkins i need to think how to engage" NOPE..how you do when you see nobz on the field? or terminators? Seer council? ..you say OK i need to becarefull now cuz one mistake is going to destroy my game..what do you say when a Kasrkin is on the field ? " Its that a....Guardsman with a fancy helmet?"
Well to finish this...Kaskrin are kinda bad they fullfill only one role and that role is NOT for a t3 unit to furfill...my sugestion will not change 1v1 or teamgame they will make it more fun and more challenging for both players

Kasrkin is bad because
1. Kasrkin Sarge has too short of a range and makes entire squad not fire at maximum range which leads to bleed.
2. Kasrkin are useless without GL
Why
2.1 Not enough DPS for a Tier 3 unit
- Damage for tier 3 is .... guardsman tier 1 level...(6 man squad )
- They really are crappy vs tier 3 units...they are like 6 man squad guardsman in tier 1 shooting a CSM or Tact
2.2 Other kits are not used
- did you see em shine or make a diference without a grenade luncher?...no i have not...and im watching tons of high level replays and not even once i have seen someone there useing Hellguns ore Plasma even vs Space Marine 90% of the time people go for GL

As a result
- IG has no choice in T3 Kasrkin is not worth over Leman which makes IG T3 not flexible

Conclusion
- IG needs more option in T3 by buffing Kasrkin.

- Let me make myself clear on this one. I was merely pointing out basic standards you have to keep in mind when making a suggestion that can affect balance. I have not said anything about Kasrkin needing buff or nerf.
- Kasrkin needed rework for sometime but you need to first ask other questions as to why they were not buffed further.
1. What if IG is so strong in other tiers that even that they have to given a penalty in T3 by making only Leman an effective choice?
2. Kasrkins are way cheaper than most of other T3 squads you mention. Kommandos and D cannons are only ones that can be compared closely to it price wise. Is it really fair to compare them to more expensive T3?
3. Also, there is always a possibility of players not discovering their right use yet. Not all uploaded games on elite server represent all the games played by players. There are a lot of games played without ESL reporter turned on. Just because you watched a ton of replays uploaded, does not mean your conclusion is right.
4. 1v1 IG dominance
- This is primarily why we need to get testimony from top tier players on whether buffing Kasrkin is going to be allowed or not. IG despite getting constant nerfs still dominates 1v1 scene. Even slight change can cause a huge break in balance if it is done on a faction with good win rate already. Mind you that this dominance is with 2 so called useless unit in T3 roaster while all other factions having different choices like you mention.

sharkk wrote: 3.There is nothing here to really think about it i didint gave em GAME CHANGING rolles or extra mechanics that can destroy the game balance i just sugest ... let people choose :) not force people to go GL when you buy Kasrkins... A Small damage and health bonus if you go infantry kit (as how low Kasrkin dmg is now there will not be a problem in that),Grenadier Kit...its the fking same so you cant tell me this needs testing...support kit yea its kinda gamechanging a good flashbang or smoke screen in late game but there you can improvise...

-My Sugestion: - Give em 3 upgrades + a Sarge the player can only choose 1 kit and the sarge(Like Stormtroopers):-Infantry Kit This kit will Upgrade the Karskins Hellguns(more damage) and give em the ability "Genetic Enhancement" an passive ability (From DOW 1) that give the Karskin some health per model
- Grenadier Kit - Same as the current grenade luncher but it will give an ability like the Heretics have
-Support Kit - Give em the Smoke Grenades/Flashbangs and the current SPRINT ability
-Reskin the Sarge with a Regular Karskin with no helmed or just a regular Karskin or something that suit em'.
- Id like to suggest a Stealth Operation kit but that role is for the stormtroopers :D and they are perfect as they are and i dont wanna have something that will take that from em

- Not a unreasonable request but first need to see what other top tier players have to say about buffing it.

sharkk wrote:EDIT :-They are not bad they are a joke :D Tested with my friend :D in a game lvl 3 Kasrkin with leader vs a lvl 3 Slugga boi with burna and leader..."Kasrkin start shooting at maximum range,slugga boiz start coming for em...when the slugga boiz made contact in melee with em i press the retreat button...Slugga boiz Health was 1200/1600 so my kasrkin a T3 unit did in 4-5 volleys (6 men squad) of fire to a tier 1 unit and they did 400 damage :D

- Bad example. Leveled Slugga would even tear apart ranged Termies. In DOW2 ranged squad no matter how leveled have either hard time or get slaughtered by dedicated melee if they let them get close. Kasrkin needed rework for sometimes but this observation cannot be base of the change.[/quote]


I understand what you are saying,they dont cost as much as terminators or nobz but they are not doing the same job as em...i dont wanna make kasrkin OP or gamechanger ...but i dont whant to see em a meme unit or good only with one kit,didnt say once "Hey why kasrkins loose vs terminators or nobz or seer council",i just wanna make em decent i whant to have options...they should be good with GL/plasma or hellgun
Maybe im wrong here but in the Dawn of war elite codex on unit Description says :Kasrkin Hellgun 22 Pierce DPS (12.4 p second) 6 man (132dmg,80 per second)
Guardsman : 10 Pierce DPS,15 Sergent+commisar (4.2 P second) 12 man squad (130 damage,60 per second without Plasma or flamethrower)
The damage is not that much i mean...its kinda bad and i really dont whant to buy in T3 another level 1 guardsman squad that cant repair and cost power + bleed power and a lot more req and its kinda buggy with the sergent
i know IG its good in 1v1 but it has his counters and the counters are not few
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Re: Karskin but Worth For every Situation

Postby sharkk » Fri 09 Aug, 2019 9:56 pm

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:
boss wrote:Karskin been ass for a long time, they were only worth when they had weapon expertise back in the old days and now they are just a meme unit you always want lemans now and just leave them on overwatch.
Unless you bring back weapon expertise they will always be that shit t3 unit next to your lemans and that about it.


I can't remember that upgrade. What was it doing?


it was and upgrade to the kasrkins that give em +5 damage per model,they had burst damage back then like Stormtroopers,they used to melt things,they where like ORK Gitz back then kinda same damage
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Re: Karskin but Worth For every Situation

Postby Atlas » Sun 11 Aug, 2019 7:21 pm

Weapon Expertise actually did different things depending on what weapons the squad held. But basically it was an upgrade buff that didn't add any new functionality.
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Re: Karskin but Worth For every Situation

Postby boss » Tue 13 Aug, 2019 9:47 am

Weapon expertise used to give more damage for the hellguns, weapon cooldown for the plasma guns so fire faster in other words and when they had melta guns gave a soft snare and grenade launcher the kb thing.
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