(Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby SOLID SQUIG » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 7:40 pm

Oddnerd wrote:If you want to buff the AC in a way that improves the units' general ranged superiority, you could make him have a dmg buff, weapon range buff, or provide ranged DR like a DA exarch. Or make him a stronger combatant.


I like these ideas there not on the verge of OP, like Ted don’t need to give this squad a cc ability or anything
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Broodwich » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 10:29 pm

Since MoT is essentially Thousand sons, aspiring sorcerer would be perfect. If you wanna get freaky you could:

- Increase damage or health granted by MoT (prefer health)
- Decrease speed of MoT marines
- Have AC increase speed back to normal
- Stun on AC loss?

The AC himself would get a staff/model similar to the current sorcerer, and create a new weapon that gives him essentially the same DPS as inferno bolters. The slower firing pattern/animation of a staff gives it more burst damage, which of itself would be a small buff

Increasing the health or damage of the squad would compensate for the speed loss, and not making the AC an immediate necessity. The speed changes give it the feel of the automata that need guidance from an AC, and in general make the unit more interesting.

Just throwin ideas
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Sun 07 Apr, 2019 8:43 pm

Ughh, just reduce the cost of MoT Champion, rest of Champions are neat, and they deserve their cost. After all, no one complains about its performance. Everyone complains about its cost. So why trying to change its performance when you can just make it cheaper?
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Torpid » Mon 08 Apr, 2019 4:10 am

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:Ughh, just reduce the cost of MoT Champion, rest of Champions are neat, and they deserve their cost. After all, no one complains about its performance. Everyone complains about its cost. So why trying to change its performance when you can just make it cheaper?


You can't do that afaik.

The mark can't retroactively reduce the cost of another upgrade, and then that also wouldn't apply when you buy the AC first and want to consider getting MoT.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Black Relic » Mon 08 Apr, 2019 5:31 am

True. But it is possible to make the MoT upgrade lower the cost of AC actually. I have done something similar before. It wont effect the AC tho if the mark is not purchased. So its kinda a gamble and player NEED to understand that if they want MoT and AC that the HAVE to get the Mark first to save on resources.

But the reason that i scraped that idea before is because having the hidden mechanic type thing that people only understand if they play the game is...makes it hard to justify in implementing it.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby SarDauk » Thu 11 Apr, 2019 6:14 pm

What about an ability reducing the damage taken ? It would help the squad to keep the models alive so the dps would be preserved. Another idea I have to achieve the same goal is to decrease the accuracy of the squad hit by the ranged attack of TCSM when the AC is alive.
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Sex - Murder - Art
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Thu 11 Apr, 2019 8:17 pm

I would gladly pay 25 power for an inferno bolter marine that has 50% more damage on it.

CSM Champions are not meant to be complex, they are pretty straight forward. So, we shouldn't be talking about abilities, it must be a passive thing. Just like how MoK Champion works.

If MoT Champion is going to get a buff, it must be a simple buff. I think everyone would agree on a straight damage buff.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby SarDauk » Fri 12 Apr, 2019 10:32 am

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:I would gladly pay 25 power for an inferno bolter marine that has 50% more damage on it.

CSM Champions are not meant to be complex, they are pretty straight forward. So, we shouldn't be talking about abilities, it must be a passive thing. Just like how MoK Champion works.

If MoT Champion is going to get a buff, it must be a simple buff. I think everyone would agree on a straight damage buff.


Well, the basic AC provide slaughter to your squad which is an ability and MoK champion is a khorne champion so it make sense to be straight forward.
Even if a simple damage buff for TCSM would be probably fine it would be also really tasteless for a tzeentch squad I think.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Fri 12 Apr, 2019 1:09 pm

SarDauk wrote:Well, the basic AC provide slaughter to your squad which is an ability and MoK champion is a khorne champion so it make sense to be straight forward.
Even if a simple damage buff for TCSM would be probably fine it would be also really tasteless for a tzeentch squad I think.


Tbf, Slaughter ability is also a very simple ability. Its basicially '' make my squad better '' thing. The only reason why default CSM has that ability is because mods had to justify 25 power cost Champion compared to 25 power cost Tac Sergant that has '' And they shall know no fear'' ability.

CSM meant to be a basic squad, and they should stay that way. We don't have to work on a very improved, complex squad leader for MoT champion. We should find a way to justify its cost, thats all. A straight damage buff would do the job.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Nehkrosis » Tue 30 Apr, 2019 8:59 pm

Tbf, and 2-bolt doombolt with a large cooldown is pretty straightforward, and fluffy, while not being broken. Just make them weaker than sorc bolts.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby saltychipmunk » Thu 02 May, 2019 12:13 pm

Ehhh, there are few squads that can melt units at range as well as a tcsm though as is. Every time i look at tactical marines or the strike squad I always wish they were as good against ultra late game units as tcsm are .. massively over priced squad leader be damned. Inferno bolts make plasma guns and storm bolters look like a silly joke.

I have always viewed the aspiring champion upgrade on them as being necessarily crap to help off set the inferno bolts themselves making the existing 3 members of the squad far more lethal than the 3 members of those other heavy infantry squads.

something to get to boost up an already valuable squad with levels on it... rather than a mandatory upgrade you just throw on.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Torpid » Thu 02 May, 2019 6:55 pm

Plasma gun tacs are about a million times better than tzeentch marines, what are you on about...?
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby saltychipmunk » Fri 03 May, 2019 3:26 pm

Torpid wrote:Plasma gun tacs are about a million times better than tzeentch marines, what are you on about...?


Is this an opinion based on the functionality of the unit as a whole or is it an opinion confined within the very narrow context of my post?
IE ranged damage and only ranged damage.

plasma tacs have great versatility, their abilities are great too and in a stand up fight with abilities present.. tacs are better than tcsm (which they should be). But I was only talking about csm as a damage platform. And 4 models of infero bolts are way more threatening too all non infantry armor sources than 1 model of plasma damage and 3 models of pierce damage. Especially in end game when super heavy armor can become a plague depending on race.

inferno bolts are consistently good at eating hitpoints regardless of what type of armor or model size of the infantry you are shooting at is. That may very well be the only good thing about tcsm.. but you can't say that one good thing is weak.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Oddnerd » Fri 03 May, 2019 3:48 pm

Plasma tacs are known to be better because having most of their anti-HI damage coming from a single model leads to much faster bleed. TCSM inferno damage being evenly spread across the squads means they are not very good at bleeding.

The level 1 DPS of 4 TCSM is about 109 against HI, while Tacs with sarg and plasma combined do about 98 with kraken rounds (82 without), but the tacs have that burst of 135 damage from the plasma gun (90 plasma dph with kraken rounds) that means faster bleed, since the damage is focused on a single target. When the plasma tac dies, another model takes his weapon, meaning that their anti-HI damage is minimally affected by bleed, while TCSM lose 25% of max damage output with every model lost. Tacs also have higher HP and an ability that nearly doubles their tankiness for the duration of a firefight.

EDIT - fixed some numbers.
Last edited by Oddnerd on Fri 03 May, 2019 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby PianoMan » Fri 03 May, 2019 3:55 pm

TCSM are way overrated by slow 3v3 players just like pdevs but at least they're not useless like pdevs xd
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby saltychipmunk » Fri 03 May, 2019 4:16 pm

Oddnerd wrote:Plasma tacs are known to be better because having most of their anti-HI damage coming from a single model leads to much faster bleed. TCSM inferno damage being evenly spread across the squads means they are not very good at bleeding.

The level 1 DPS of 4 TCSM is about 91 against HI, while Tacs with sarg and plasma combined do about 82, but the tacs have that burst of 112.5 damage from the plasma gun (75 plasma dph) that means faster bleed, since the damage is focused on a single target. When the plasma tac dies, another model takes his weapon, meaning that their anti-HI damage is minimally affected by bleed, while TCSM lose 25% of max damage output with every model lost. Tacs also have higher HP and an ability that nearly doubles their tankiness for the duration of a firefight.


out of curiosity what are the values vs light infantry and super heavy infantry? The consistency of the damage vs all the armor types is what I usually value on the tcsm. especially when terminators hit the field.

Tacs get kraken bolts which kinda screw around with how well they do vs heavy armor specifically if i am not mistaken.

PianoMan wrote:TCSM are way overrated by slow 3v3 players just like pdevs but at least they're not useless like pdevs xd


This is an unfair statement, 3v3 and 1v1 and even 2v2 might as well be entirely different games . Units that are perfectly viable in one gamemode are almost useless in others. Like the examples you listed .. or say stormboys who flat out do not work against blobs.

That does not mean they are a useless or a crap unit.

Nor does it make 1v1 the superior game mode to 3v3 or 2v2. Just different.

plus outside of competitive i am willing to bet most people dont even consider 1v1 as something worth playing if the number of times i actually see lobbies for casual 1v1s was anything to go by.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Oddnerd » Fri 03 May, 2019 4:25 pm

saltychipmunk wrote:out of curiosity what are the values vs light infantry and super heavy infantry? The consistency of the damage vs all the armor types is what I usually value on the tcsm. especially when terminators hit the field.

Tacs get kraken bolts which kinda screw around with how well they do vs heavy armor specifically if i am not mistaken.



I totally forgot to factor in kraken rounds in my analysis - only cements my belief that they are flat out better than TCSM for anti-HI purposes.

As for TCSM damage to INF and SHI, the modifier is 1.0 for both, meaning a full squad does level 1 damage of ~87 dps to both armour types. Inferno is definitely the more versatile of the two, but the game tends to favour specialized units that are particularly good at 1 task... except in mindless 3v3s where getting 4 of something can actually work.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby saltychipmunk » Fri 03 May, 2019 4:27 pm

Oddnerd wrote:
saltychipmunk wrote:out of curiosity what are the values vs light infantry and super heavy infantry? The consistency of the damage vs all the armor types is what I usually value on the tcsm. especially when terminators hit the field.

Tacs get kraken bolts which kinda screw around with how well they do vs heavy armor specifically if i am not mistaken.



I totally forgot to factor in kraken rounds in my analysis - only cements my belief that they are flat out better than TCSM for anti-HI purposes.

As for TCSM damage to INF and SHI, the modifier is 1.0 for both, meaning a full squad does level 1 damage of ~87 dps to both armour types. Inferno is definitely the more versatile of the two, but the game tends to favour specialized units that are particularly good at 1 task... except in mindless 3v3s where getting 4 of something can actually work.


Considering how bad versatility usually is (looking at psycannons) 87 dps vs almost everything while still being around the same as tacs vs heavy infantry is not bad at all
Last edited by saltychipmunk on Fri 03 May, 2019 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Oddnerd » Fri 03 May, 2019 4:29 pm

saltychipmunk wrote:
Oddnerd wrote:
saltychipmunk wrote:out of curiosity what are the values vs light infantry and super heavy infantry? The consistency of the damage vs all the armor types is what I usually value on the tcsm. especially when terminators hit the field.

Tacs get kraken bolts which kinda screw around with how well they do vs heavy armor specifically if i am not mistaken.



I totally forgot to factor in kraken rounds in my analysis - only cements my belief that they are flat out better than TCSM for anti-HI purposes.

As for TCSM damage to INF and SHI, the modifier is 1.0 for both, meaning a full squad does level 1 damage of ~87 dps to both armour types. Inferno is definitely the more versatile of the two, but the game tends to favour specialized units that are particularly good at 1 task... except in mindless 3v3s where getting 4 of something can actually work.



Does this factor in the 20% damage upgrade on csm?


Yeah, 87 is factoring in EW. Their raw DPS without it is about 72.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby saltychipmunk » Fri 03 May, 2019 4:30 pm

fair enough
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Thu 20 Jun, 2019 9:33 am

MoT AC (and in the non mark CSM) has always been a problem for me, mostly because except "another guy to the squad" offered very little to the CSM. An it pales even more if you compare him with another squad leaders.

In vanilla CSM the problem is already solved thanks to "Slaughter", but the problem remains with MoT. MoK, as others have said, it's fine because all that gives to the squad.

I completely disagree with a cost reduction to the AC. The idea is making him valuable because offers something different and valuable to the squad, not because "Meh, at least it's cheap"

I would like to see a AC Sorcerer with a (nerfed) Doombolt ability, but I think the best option here is giving to MoT AC some kind of passive buff that affects the squad if the AC is alive. An accuracy buff? An courage increase regeneration rate, to make them more difficult to suppress?

Oddnerd wrote:Plasma tacs are known to be better because having most of their anti-HI damage coming from a single model leads to much faster bleed. TCSM inferno damage being evenly spread across the squads means they are not very good at bleeding.

A lot of interesting numbers (Sorry, the quote was too big :( )

EDIT - fixed some numbers.


Also, SM have a lot more options than Chaos to increase the damage of the Plasma Tacts through buffs.
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