Improvements to Tyranids quality of life

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Telos
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Improvements to Tyranids quality of life

Postby Telos » Mon 25 Feb, 2019 11:15 am

Hey, I really like most of the changes to Tyranids in 2.9 but I wonder if they might have some tweaks to improve quality of life to some situations they're severely lacking in and their late game on some units. I'm focusing on individual weaknesses and peculiarities of units in the Nid roster that I feel have never really been addressed and not really addressing their strength as a whole (hard to know where that is in the current meta, but it's definitely improved).

I'm including all my ideas here for the sake of simplicity and I'm not necessarily advocating implementing all of them, so I'm just numbering them here with my proposed idea. But if it's better to divide them into individual threads I'd be happy to do so. Also, if I'm misunderstanding the purpose of some units or their abilities I'd be happy to be corrected.

Here is what I was thinking:

1. Garrisons and Turrets

This becomes less of a problem after T2 when nids can get out units like Zoanthropes and... more Zoanthropes. But in T1 they're completely shut down by units going into a garrison or turret spam. The nid player can get strangler warriors but it's not ideal in many situations and they don't actually help against turrets. Spore mines help with garrisons somewhat if used really well. Like REALLY WELL. But a lot of abilities that knock them back or setup teams completely disintegrate them before they can often get off more than one blast in range. That's assuming if you have the high level micro-skills necessary to constantly switch back to them and manually detonate them while also managing your terms, gaunts, and hero.

Possible Solution: Why not restore their suppression (or giving it a knockback if it's meant to make them unique from barbed stranglers) on explosion and remove their poison damage over time ability? Replace it with them creating a burn effect on the ground upon death. This gives good counterplay to the enemy, they can just kite away and kill them (as they do now) but gives the Spore mines more versatility since they can suppress melee squads and threaten them with the burn effect. And since they produce the effect upon death instead of detonation, they don't lose value against garrisons and turrets. They just need to get into range and will still serve their intended purpose by dying to enemy fire with the burn effect. They won't get their frontend damage from the detonation but they can still force units out of garrisons and kill turrets, forcing the enemy to adopt a more balanced strategy. The enemy can still use turrets and garrisons and force the nid player to invest in spore mines, but they'll have to think a lot more strategically about it than they do now at least.

This would probably need to be balanced so they don't deal too much damage to generators, and they'd probably also need to be made completely immune to fire damage so they don't kill themselves by detonating (I don't see much problem with this). I think this would add a lot of utility to spore mines and help Tyranids address two of their biggest shortcomings in T1 with a single unit. That is if it's possible to implement in the mod...

2. Venom Cannon Carnifex

The buffs to the venom cannon giving it a little splash are a big improvement. But the VC fex is still an extremely niche upgrade imo. You want and need it for T3 super units which nids tend to struggle against like baneblades, Land Raiders, Daemons, etc. Beyond that it's not terribly useful. Its bio plasma skillshot is pretty nice I guess? I mean it's better than nothing but it's kind of a poor man's Pdev, it does good damage against vehicles and ok damage against infantry but its best feature is good disruption with long-range knockback which nids severely lack late-game (more on that later), but it doesn't really justify getting the VCfex just for that...

The VC fex has no fire on the move, is slow and has kinda shit pathing (like most large units but its speed and the fact it's a walker kind of compounds this). Not to mention it's possibly the only T3 specialized AV that can be effectively disrupted by a guardsmen squad in melee. On top of this, if it can't outshoot other specialized AV like a las-predator, it's very unlikely to get away without a lot of luck.

Possible Solution: How about giving its bioplasma a stun? Nids currently don't have any unit that stuns. They have knockback, suppression, and slows, but are kind of lacking in CC options for units that ignore knockback/suppression (of which there are many in T3). It'd give the VC fex at least a chance to get away from a losing fight and maybe even grant it a bit of versatility for the nid army if the enemy shifts away from vehicles to infantry. Its cooldown/damage/range/projectile speed could be adjusted to balance it if need-be, but a ranged AoE stun isn't that unheard of for T3, especially for such a specialized unit with limited use outside of AV. Speaking of stuns though...

3. Tyranid Hero Utility

The Tyranid heroes have a lot of useful abilities but are severely lacking when it comes to having any sort of crowd control.

Possible Solution: Is it unreasonable to ask that they have some kind of wargear that gives a stun of some sort? They have slows/knockback/suppression abilities, but many late game abilities and units completely negate these. Assuming no other unit gets a stun (see VC fex suggestion above), it'd really help them deal with certain kinds of heavy infantry or heroes (looking at you Telehammer) that they tend to struggle against. Just putting this out there, but since nids don't have transports, retreat nodes and limited infield reinforcement options they tend to rely heavily on winning a fight to be viable and if they can't then they're usually completely off the field (or dead). A targeted stun would help them deal with certain individual threats and open more options for them. Most heroes have some form of stun and it doesn't seem unreasonable for them.

4. Zoanthrope

The new T3 zoan heal is a nice addition and gives Tyranids much needed infield repair for their monstrous units. But the ability not allowing it to retreat makes it a very risky prospect.

Possible Solution: Is there no way to make Zoanthrope able to retreat while casting it? I'm fine with that canceling the healing if it's possible. It already takes away the zoans shield, and I understand it's probably made this way to add risk to the zoan healing units that are in combat. But even if it's healing outside of combat, the number of units that can get into range quickly (either infiltrated, jumped in, or called in) means using it in the field is risky in the best of circumstances.

Also: And this is more of a nice to have but since the repair upgrade pretty much makes zoanthropes required in all matchups could we see them get a price reduction and maybe make focused warpblast a T2 upgrade (it could also include a damage reduction with the upgrade restoring its current damage levels). They're already the Tyranid healer, artillery, anti-turret, anti-garrison, anti-heavy infantry, anti-infantry unit. So why not make their Anti-vehicle ability more of a niche purchase than out-of-the-box and make them a bit easier to get out?

5. Neurothrope

First want to point out that Spirit Leech incorrectly states that the ability immobilizes the squad it targets. It only immobilizes the model it's targeting. Also the codex link incorrectly goes to: https://dawnofwar.info/codex.php?page=e ... _malan'tai instead of the correct link: https://dawnofwar.info/codex.php?page=elite/neurothrope

I like the Neurothrope, it fills in a lot of the gaps that the Tyranids have with dealing with super heavy infantry, crowd control, and monstrous units. And although I'd prefer some of this utility transferred to the Tyranid heroes (see Tyranid Hero Utility) I'm fine with it as is for the most part.

One thing that seems strange to me about it is its ability Absorb Life (Same as the Swarmlord ability). It already has an ability to restore energy (Leech Essence) and it already heals when it damages a unit (unless this was changed?) this ability would appear intended to threaten any enemy units that get too close to it. But really, any unit that gets with 25 radius of it and is actually a threat would make me more inclined to just retreat. Considering its utility and kit encourages you to keep it long range, the ability would seem more suited as a levitation field or some kind of cc on units in case they manage to close with it, since it has no shield and can die to a strong enough breeze. But another issue is that this makes it kind of unwieldly having four separate abilities on one unit to consider and manage.

Possible Solution: Honestly I'd much prefer just removing the ability and making the Neurothrope immune to knockback. Four abilities on a single unit is confusing and a lot to manage when you're also trying to micro a army (most of which also have abilities) and in T3 there are tons of units that can cause knockback (special attacks, leaps, AoE weapons). Zoanthropes have a light counter to this with their shield, it at least gives them a chance to retreat. But it's often a death sentence for the Neurothrope to be knocked down since it can suffer chain knockback and isn't that tanky of a single unit entity to begin with. Not to mention healing units in the field has already been given to the Zoanthrope so the ability to heal itself (combined with its passive heal on hit) seems a bit redundant. This would simplify it and give it much greater survivability imo.


6. Endless Swarm

This isn't that bad of an ability, so this is more of me just having wishful thinking. As T3 ults go it just feels kind of lackluster, even with two squads with full upgrades, it feels like they don't make that much of an impact because they have no levels. In fact it feels like they kind of have big drawbacks since you want every resource going towards your monstrous units, and red seems better placed in Tyrannoformation or Cap towers, plus the gaunts and terms drop models so quickly it feels like you're just feeding your opponent red not to mention it kind of tanks your eco. There are some niche situations where it's good to use, but it seems like a rare occasion...

Possible Solution: This may be crazy, but what about making the Hormagaunts and Termagants dropped unique? Call them Hivefleet Horms and Terms and make them about as strong as level 2 gaunts and terms, but they can't level. They have the standard upgrades but they're unique in that they don't cost any upkeep or pop. The cooldown of the ability could be increased to compensate, so they're basically like free units (you're still paying red/resources and same cost to reinforce), but since they're not as strong as gaunts or terms that may have made it that far in the game the nid player is dissuaded from just suiciding them for free ones. It'd feel like a really cool ability and give the sense of an "endless swarm" enveloping the planet. Or instead maybe just move the ability to T2 where the two squads dropped can make more of an impact? I think the former would be cooler, but the latter at least gives the ability more utility and options for the nid player.

Anyway, that's my thinking. Tyranids probably need more time in this patch to see where they stand in the meta but I don't think their lack of cc and large vulnerabilities of the units listed above has ever really been addressed so would like to hear thoughts on it. Or if I'm just wrong about these being issues wouldn't mind hearing the reasons for that as well. :oops:
Last edited by Telos on Mon 25 Feb, 2019 2:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Improvements to Tyranids quality of life

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Mon 25 Feb, 2019 11:41 am

Well people will not like this one, but I can BULLSHIT! 4 out of 5 things you complain about are not even a problem in game!

1-) Turret spam thing should be discussed somewhere else. Nids can counter units insade buildings with barbed warriors or spore mines. They are enough.

2-) Venom fex is a very good anti-vehicle counter. Has good speed to chase down other tanks and more than enough dps to kill them. And yet you are asking it to kill a Baneblade alone? Venom fex is fine.

I don't even know why they gave venom fex a mini plasma cannon in the first place. But it is a very mobile pocket plasma cannon. Enough is enough.

3-) Wtf is this even?

Image Image

Image Image Image Image Image

Now, gtfo here! Also, Neurothrope gives you more than enough crowd control.

Telos wrote: The new T3 zoan heal is a nice addition and gives Tyranids much needed infield repair for their monstrous units. But the ability not allowing it to retreat makes it a very risky prospect.


4-) Well, duuuh! Healing monters on the field without retreating them to base is already a big deal for Tyranids. I am expecting some issues, it might be slightly OP, but we need time to tell that. It is a great idea for Tyranids, and you should expect a cost for this beatiful ability, right? And yet you claim it has a problem?

5-) I couldn't find a problem in there, and yet you managed to give us a solution? For a problem that doesn't exist?
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Re: Improvements to Tyranids quality of life

Postby Telos » Mon 25 Feb, 2019 2:06 pm

Ah Sex - Murder - Art, your civil manner of discourse truly makes it a pleasure to interact with you on these forums. :lol:

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:1-) Turret spam thing should be discussed somewhere else. Nids can counter units insade buildings with barbed warriors or spore mines. They are enough.


Well, if turret spam is the only point that you think has any value then why not discuss it here? But I'd be happy to create a new thread if you think it's necessary. But as I stated, this creates a strategic limitation for Tyranids on maps with garrisons in that they're kind of forced to get barbed strangler warriors. Not that those are bad units, but it forces a kind of limitation on the player and cuts them off from their T2 upgrade. Spore mines as they are now aren't a great solution, they can force him off of one garrison perhaps but if they die before they can make much of an impact then he can just get back into the garrison without much worry, at least if the mines made getting back in the garrison unviable he'd have to make a different strategic choice.

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:2-) Venom fex is a very good anti-vehicle counter. Has good speed to chase down other tanks and more than enough dps to kill them. And yet you are asking it to kill a Baneblade alone? Venom fex is fine.


Hmm, I don't recall asking for it to kill a Baneblade alone, but maybe I forgot where I wrote that. If you could point out where I said that maybe I could clarify my thoughts. I am of the opinion that the Venom fex is the correct counter to choose for a baneblade, supposing of course the IG player didn't have a lascannon, or Spotter team, or Kasrkin, or any infantry squad to tie it up in melee while the baneblade shredded your army and killed your other AV units that cause synapse backlash. And at 4.5 speed out of synapse (the same as every walker) I do wonder what vehicles you're supposing it can catch? The baneblade or the land raider, sure. What tank in the game exactly can it "chase down"? And supposing for a moment it's in an engagement it can't win and needs to fall back, which tanks in the game is it adept at outrunning?

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:3-) Wtf is this even?

Image Image

Image Image Image Image Image


Awesome, you took so much time to copy/paste those images you must surely have read what I wrote as well! You're probably more familiar with this race than I am, can you direct me to which of these abilities causes a stun? I'm looking for a reliable way to deal with terminators and heroes that teleport into my army and instantly start knocking around my infantry blob (blobbed of course, because I want them under synapse so they don't die instantly to his ranged units).

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:Now, gtfo here! Also, Neurothrope gives you more than enough crowd control.


This is true, nids have one unit that give them very good crowd control. Kind of like a weirdboy (without the stun and knockback), or a Librarian (without the utility to friendly units) and also in T3. I don't recall saying the Neurothrope wasn't a good unit. Are you implying that because nids have one unit with reliable crowd control (and by reliable I mean good knockback, and the ability to immobilize one model) that they should not have the option of a stun on some wargear? You are free to feel that way, but I wonder why it is?

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:4-) Well, duuuh! Healing monters on the field without retreating them to base is already a big deal for Tyranids. I am expecting some issues, it might be slightly OP, but we need time to tell that. It is a great idea for Tyranids, and you should expect a cost for this beatiful ability, right? And yet you claim it has a problem?


Well my initial impression is that it grants Tyranids the same options that every other race has enjoyed since the launch of the game, infield repair. On top of this, it's a heavy investment on a fragile unit that you want to be using for other things and that makes said unit more fragile by reducing its shield because of it's heavy energy cost. I think it'd be better to just allow the zoan to retreat and cancel the ability, but perhaps this isn't possible with how the ability is implemented. If that's the case then I understand why the ability was made as such, but if it's not then I don't think it's too much to ask. The zoanthrope being off the field is already a huge disadvantage in that case.

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:5-) I couldn't find a problem in there, and yet you managed to give us a solution? For a problem that doesn't exist?


Well, as I was trying to state (and perhaps it wasn't clear, apologies) I feel the Neurothrope kind of has too many abilities so why not remove an ability that doesn't synergize with its kit in exchange for granting it greater survivability? Especially since said ability seems to be intended to grant it greater survivability. It would make it easier to use for newer players and a more worthwhile investment imo since as it is now, if it gets knocked back by a melee unit it's essentially sentenced to die. If it gets knocked back at all really it's very likely to die.
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Re: Improvements to Tyranids quality of life

Postby Impregnable » Mon 25 Feb, 2019 3:04 pm

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:Well people will not like this one, but I can BULLSHIT! 4 out of 5 things you complain about are not even a problem in game!

- Let us be civilized in our discussions. It is not like everyone is Yabbaman.

Telos wrote:

- You need to first reveal what mode of game you are talking about. Most of those points looks very 3v3 oriented.

- Know that any team game oriented change cannot be done unless it is firstly proven it will not affect 1v1 balance. Also even if it is 1v1 issue, if the problem arises because of lack of skill, it is highly likely that it is not going to be patched. If high skill players can counter something in 1v1 and others below that skill level cannot, it is very unlikely to be patched.
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Re: Improvements to Tyranids quality of life

Postby Telos » Mon 25 Feb, 2019 3:48 pm

Impregnable wrote:- You need to first reveal what mode of game you are talking about. Most of those points looks very 3v3 oriented.

- Know that any team game oriented change cannot be done unless it is firstly proven it will not affect 1v1 balance. Also even if it is 1v1 issue, if the problem arises because of lack of skill, it is highly likely that it is not going to be patched. If high skill players can counter something in 1v1 and others below that skill level cannot, it is very unlikely to be patched.


I was under the assumption that all balance was centered around 1v1. Turret spam indeed is more of a team game issue but it's still so effective against Tyranids (map dependent) that it does come up.

The other points I think also apply in 1v1 but if you disagree I'm open to it.

My TL;DR points would be (and this is certainly opinion, I make no claims to being a highly skilled player):

1. Garrisons and turrets are too effective against Tyranids in T1, they lack an effective counter. (more of a team game issue sure, but still one I think could/should be addressed)

2. Venom Fex is somewhat lacking in terms of being a dedicated T3 AV unit. It's easily tied up, has difficulty chasing down units and is unlikely to escape a losing fight.

3. I feel that Tyranid units lack of a stun hamstrings many of their options.

4. I believe the cost of the Zoanthrope repair upgrade, combined with the drawbacks already associated with having it off the field, should justify it being able to retreat out of the ability (if the mod allows).

5. I feel that the 4 abilities on the Neurothrope makes it too complex a unit and its utility and ease of use would be increased if Absorb Life were removed since it doesn't really synergize with its kit anyway.

6. As a T3 call in, Endless Swarm feels lackluster because of how weak Terms and Gaunts are in T3. Suggested buffs above or moving to T2.
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Re: Improvements to Tyranids quality of life

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Mon 25 Feb, 2019 4:17 pm

You want me to be civil? First, you must deserve it Telos.

Telos wrote: they're kind of forced to get barbed strangler warriors.


Whats wrong with that? Its like saying ''Garrisons force SM to purchase flamers''. If you are pointing out that garrisons force nids to buy a spesific unit to counter it, you can just roll out with spore mines at this stage.

Telos wrote: Stuff about venom fex


Venom cannon increases speed of Carnifex, news for you I guess? Thats enough to chase down already damaged vehicles like looted tank or predator before they manage to escape. Faster than any walker vehicle, and more than enough to chase down baneblade and LRR

You are claiming that it can't out shoot a las-pred (like it has to do or something) in the first post, but you are ignoring the fact that Carnifex has 1350 hp vehicle armor monster with no rear armor penalty. Pretty sure it can out shoot that tank with its stats.

Telos wrote: I'm looking for a reliable way to deal with terminators and heroes that teleport into my army and instantly start knocking around my infantry blob


And I gave you what you asked. Those tools are enough to deal with teleporting Terminators, except Menacing Visage. I put that there because you could have a similar problem against Nobz or Seers.

Back to Terminators After killing 40% of their health, they are done. But I feel like you are specifically crying about telehammer FC. Tell me what can other races do about that (except getting a tank out) then maybe I would care to talk about that. Ever heard Toxin Sacs Termigants?

Btw, you are claiming that Tyranids need stuns, corrent? How said that they need it? This is how their race works, and it works so well, they tend to win most of Faction Wars. Ever wondered maybe they don't need stuns, and what they already have are enough to solve their problems?

Telos wrote: Stuff about Neurothrope


Neurothrope has knockback that doesn't do friendly fire like Weirdboy, and has a large area slow down that deal real good damage. I don't get why you choose to compare a T3 elite unit with T2 sub heroes. Cna you compare Weirdboy agianst Libby? No, you can't. So why do you do the same mistake on Neurothrope? It has a very different role compared to those two.

Telos wrote:... It would make it easier to use for newer players ... if it gets knocked back by a melee unit it's essentially sentenced to die ...


Maybe new players should learn how to handle that unit with experiance. Neurothrope has enough health and speed to get away from a knockback and melee attacks.

According to your logic, we should make 1v1 games easier and less micro investing, because new players are having struggle in it.

According to a logic that can be figured out anyone that has higher IQ than their shoe number, new players should learn how to play the game.
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Re: Improvements to Tyranids quality of life

Postby Oddnerd » Mon 25 Feb, 2019 4:39 pm

Melee raveners that unburrow have stun fyi.
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Re: Improvements to Tyranids quality of life

Postby Nurland » Mon 25 Feb, 2019 9:47 pm

Ok. Now personal insults aren't exactly something that is productive so keep it civil.
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Re: Improvements to Tyranids quality of life

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 26 Feb, 2019 1:26 am

Telos wrote:1. Garrisons and Turrets


They used to do do damage and/or suppression on death IIRC, but it was too strong. Balancing spore mines involves treading a fine line, because there have been times where they were super toxic and cheesy (In DOW2 on release day, they all detonated at once, insta-gibbing all infantry in sight). I don't really get the point of the aoe burn, you could just request that they do a bit of damage on death so that you don't lose an entire spore squad outside a garrison and only get 1 detonation's worth of damage.

Telos wrote:2. Venom Cannon Carnifex


Veno fexes are niche, but that doesn't mean they are bad. With the zoanthrope healing they will become much better at going toe-to-toe with tanks than they were before. The bioplasma is an amazing ability - when your opponent starts to retreat his tank from a losing battle, a well-placed bioplasma can snipe them. I don't see why it needs to be more than this. The venom cannon is a dedicated AV upgrade for the fex, and that is what it does in it's current state. I can't even count the number of times I've picked off a retreating tank with bioplasma.

Telos wrote:3. Tyranid Hero Utility


Tyranids have a stun in the form of melee raveners. When they burst from the ground they stun everything in range. What is wrong with the utility of their heroes otherwise? The Tyrant has charge, seismic roar, bioplasma, improved synapse, and psychic scream. The lictor has 3 different weapons with some form of crowd control (aoe knockback + suppression, and 2 speed/damage debuffs), a leap, an aoe damage debuff and reinforce, and an ability that makes enemy units retreat. The ravener alpha has crippling talon, burrow, an aoe slow, burrow bombs, damage synpase, and an aoe damage spell for dealing with infantry melee spam.

Telos wrote:4. Zoanthrope


Letting the zoan cancel the ability to retreat would be nice, they did it for the sorc.
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Re: Improvements to Tyranids quality of life

Postby Telos » Tue 26 Feb, 2019 1:47 am

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:You want me to be civil? First, you must deserve it Telos.


You are hilarious my friend. :lol:
Thanks for the reply, when you're ready to engage in polite discussion I'll be ready to discuss ideas with you.

Oddnerd wrote:Melee raveners that unburrow have stun fyi.


You are correct and I completely forgot about that. Just because their devourers are soooo good, but maybe EMC ravs will have a stronger niche this meta. I still think it'd be nice if the heroes had more such abilities, but oh well.

Oddnerd wrote:They used to do do damage and/or suppression on death IIRC, but it was too strong. Balancing spore mines involves treading a fine line, because there have been times where they were super toxic and cheesy (In DOW2 on release day, they all detonated at once, insta-gibbing all infantry in sight).


Yeah, I understand that. It is a fine line, but I'm not entirely sure where they're supposed to fit now. They can scare large squads out of garrisons but beefy units can often wipe em before they can accomplish their intended purpose (getting them out of garrisons).

Oddnerd wrote:I don't really get the point of the aoe burn, you could just request that they do a bit of damage on death so that you don't lose an entire spore squad outside a garrison and only get 1 detonation's worth of damage.


This would also be a fine compromise, plus increasing their damage against structures to be able to destroy turrets would really help fill a niche I think they're lacking in. My thinking was that a damage over time would dissuade enemy squads from re-entering a garrison immediately after they're dead.

Oddnerd wrote:Veno fexes are niche, but that doesn't mean they are bad. With the zoanthrope healing they will become much better at going toe-to-toe with tanks than they were before. The bioplasma is an amazing ability - when your opponent starts to retreat his tank from a losing battle, a well-placed bioplasma can snipe them. I don't see why it needs to be more than this. The venom cannon is a dedicated AV upgrade for the fex, and that is what it does in it's current state. I can't even count the number of times I've picked off a retreating tank with bioplasma.


Yeah, they're not bad and it's my mistake for alluding to that. It's just that the Barbed strangler is soooo much better. It seems like the Venom fex would fit a tighter niche with a utility stun ability instead of a damage snipe, especially since they tend to struggle against long-range. I've often had games where I invest in a Venom fex and it does make an impact against his vehicles, but if my opponent shifts to an infantry focus then it struggles to make an impact. The strangler is just a way better investment over it, so my thinking is that some type of utility attached to its bioplasma (besides damage/knockback) would make it more appealing.

Oddnerd wrote:Tyranids have a stun in the form of melee raveners. When they burst from the ground they stun everything in range. What is wrong with the utility of their heroes otherwise? The Tyrant has charge, seismic roar, bioplasma, improved synapse, and psychic scream. The lictor has 3 different weapons with some form of crowd control (aoe knockback + suppression, and 2 speed/damage debuffs), a leap, an aoe damage debuff and reinforce, and an ability that makes enemy units retreat. The ravener alpha has crippling talon, burrow, an aoe slow, burrow bombs, damage synpase, and an aoe damage spell for dealing with infantry melee spam.


Their utility is okay, and synapse is definitely a big boost. I just think that a stun or control ability that can shut down a unit would give them greater strategic depth rather than damage debuffs or slows.

Oddnerd wrote:Letting the zoan cancel the ability to retreat would be nice, they did it for the sorc.


/agree
But that's my initial reaction with it so far, I'm fine with waiting to see how it plays out in the current meta. I don't think it's much to ask for especially since they're expected to fill so many roles in the nid roster.
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Re: Improvements to Tyranids quality of life

Postby boss » Fri 01 Mar, 2019 5:17 am

Tyranids will always be weak to turrets since they never got looked at this part and never will I guess.
Garrisons is another thing but it's got abit better since the last few patchs.

Venom fex bio plasma damage was change a while ago to anti_vehicle_pvp again show this on the codex pls it does next to nothing to infantry no more and only good vs vehicles and should only be used for this until it get's change back.
venom fex is still the best thing tyranids got for av

Tyranid hero's are fine only lictor alpha was the weakest and now since the buffs or reverts I should say he back to being good again.

Zoanthrope heal should be made to retreat from.

Neurothorpe has adsorb life cos it was called the doom of Malan'tai before they change its name idk why they did this and if you know anything about the doom it sucks the life force out of you nomnom
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Telos
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Re: Improvements to Tyranids quality of life

Postby Telos » Mon 04 Mar, 2019 8:21 am

boss wrote:Tyranids will always be weak to turrets since they never got looked at this part and never will I guess.
Garrisons is another thing but it's got abit better since the last few patchs.


I wholeheartedly agree with this. The Elite mod has made huge improvements to nids and gameplay over vanilla imo, not trying to complain about that. Was there a reason spore mine damage to structures was nerfed? Was it imba against gen farms or something?

boss wrote:Venom fex bio plasma damage was change a while ago to anti_vehicle_pvp again show this on the codex pls it does next to nothing to infantry no more and only good vs vehicles and should only be used for this until it get's change back.
venom fex is still the best thing tyranids got for av


It does disrupt infantry which is something, but yeah the damage to infantry does leave something to be desired. If the intent is to make it a vehicle sniping tool then it definitely does that, but the Venom cannon is already really good in that category.

boss wrote:Tyranid hero's are fine only lictor alpha was the weakest and now since the buffs or reverts I should say he back to being good again.


I can't disagree with this, it's more of just an "I wish I could stun or hard cc" kind of suggestion, since there's a lot of scenarios where a single model or squad will cause massive problems for the nid army.

boss wrote:Neurothorpe has adsorb life cos it was called the doom of Malan'tai before they change its name idk why they did this and if you know anything about the doom it sucks the life force out of you nomnom


Ok, I understand the thematic reasons now. But Spirit Leech already does this, and isn't the point to balance? Don't get me wrong it's not a bad ability, it just seems strange on a unit that's meant to be kept at long range and doesn't really help that much with survivability if it's targeted. It seems to be more useful if you can use it next to the enemy army while your opponent isn't targeting it.
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Nurland
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Re: Improvements to Tyranids quality of life

Postby Nurland » Thu 07 Mar, 2019 12:25 pm

It is useful when your enemy tries to hunt Neuro with jump squads or melee.
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Telos
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Re: Improvements to Tyranids quality of life

Postby Telos » Fri 08 Mar, 2019 5:14 am

Nurland wrote:It is useful when your enemy tries to hunt Neuro with jump squads or melee.


I'm sincerely trying to imagine a scenario where melee/jump squads are within 25 range of the Neuro and you don't want to retreat the Neuro immediately, or it doesn't already have enough support to force off the units hunting it. Even with a lot of support, not retreating immediately against most T3 melee units that get that close seems a risky proposition.

Maybe there's a situation I'm not thinking of or haven't experienced?
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Nurland
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Re: Improvements to Tyranids quality of life

Postby Nurland » Sun 10 Mar, 2019 12:17 am

Neuro drain life used to be trololololol op but now it is very very situational. Still, if you have your army with the neuro. You just snare the squad and kite with drain luls Neuro while the rest of your army noms the enemy.
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