Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
User avatar
Oddnerd
Level 4
Posts: 725
Joined: Mon 27 Oct, 2014 1:50 am

Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby Oddnerd » Sat 09 Feb, 2019 3:40 am

One subject of argument this patch has been the telespammer combo on the force commander and how it is complete mindless cheese that makes him counter enemies he isn't supposed to.

The hammer is supposed be an anti-melee weapon that lets FC shut down aggressive melee builds and also go toe-to-toe with other offensive commanders in melee. Thanks to the teleporter, he can now teleport into enemy ranged units and fuck them up. I know some people think offensive commanders shouldn't even have teleport to begin with, and I am sympathetic to that - but I would argue that the thing that is unforgivably imbalanced about the telespammer is that it allows him to make specials so frequently that units become trapped in a perma-knockback that they can't escape from save retreating - because the time it takes for them to get back up and regain coherency in order to run away exceeds the time it takes for the FC to make another attack with BC active.

I would propose splitting battlecry into 2 abilities: 1 that is just an aoe damage buff to allies, and the other that is a single on-demand special attack. I propose this because I think battlecry is just an inherently stupid ability by design. Not only is 15 seconds of constant aoe knockback with damage cheesy, but it can also be frustrating for the FC because sometimes you just want your guy to make a normal attack... there is no control once the ability pops (This is why I dislike randomly activating special attacks in general - having your idiot commander activate a special when he could have smacked the last retreating enemy model to death is annoying). The new ability would be lower cost, allowing for it to be used several times in an engagement, but would have just enough of a cooldown so that you couldn't just mindlessly trap enemies in a state of permanent knockback - particularly units with a lot of models. The FC player would stand to benefit too, because with a bit of micro, you now have more control over the exact timing of your specials, and can also switch back to normal attacks if the situation demands it. You also wouldn't have to wait a minute for the cooldown if you have more than one engagement in a short period of time.

TL:DR: Splitting BC into two spells might mean less cheese for those facing the FC and more control over specials for the FC. Or it could be a disaster, I don't play enough SM to know.
Paranoid Kamikaze
Level 3
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue 02 Feb, 2016 5:12 am

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Mon 11 Feb, 2019 12:39 am

Tele is supposed to help FC get into ranged enemies XD It stops you from taking damage on the way in and immediately stops suppression platforms. Anyways, not really worth 40 power to get to a ranged unit unless it's for a specific reason where you can't otherwise. Alacrity is cheaper and often good enough. The FC is a melee commander that needs to get into close range to hit things and buff his troops or he does nothing so getting in is very important.

The chain knockback is useful for shutting down a commander tying up one of your units. In terms of dps it's usually worse than just regularly hitting them unless you're buffing a large army.
User avatar
Black Relic
Level 4
Posts: 836
Joined: Mon 29 Jul, 2013 3:05 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby Black Relic » Sat 16 Feb, 2019 6:30 am

That would actually buff the FC. The Hammer tracking special is bs in the tracking does damage. Which it shouldn't. Units within and the 6.5 or 7 radius AOE should take damage and be knockedback imo.

But that is were it ends with the battle cry. If popped the enemy can kite him effectively since the FC cannot get a swing off that hits since he auto special attacks. But you pop that ability also buffs allies.

If the ability was split, i could then buff my army with no downside since if i am later rushed by melee i can still have the auto special ability available. This makes the FC too flexible.
"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54
User avatar
Sex - Murder - Art
Level 2
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun 21 Oct, 2018 10:25 am

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Sat 16 Feb, 2019 7:16 am

Ffs! I don't get why you people always cry about telehammer. It's not that hard to deal with it, trust me. The only faction that may have struggle with is IG, and to be honest, even they can come up with something decent.

Just get a fucking tank out. Thats all you need.

If Atlas really wants to stop this baby tears forever, here is a suggestion. Write some kind of '' if '' code, and do not allow teleporter to be equiped with hammer.
There are many ways to say the right thing, and I choose the worst way to say it.
User avatar
Oddnerd
Level 4
Posts: 725
Joined: Mon 27 Oct, 2014 1:50 am

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby Oddnerd » Sun 17 Feb, 2019 11:22 pm

Lol, get a tank out in T2. That's almost as hard as getting a tank out to counter hormagaunts.
User avatar
Atlas
Moderator
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun 02 Feb, 2014 5:23 pm
Location: Tarpon Springs, FL

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby Atlas » Mon 18 Feb, 2019 4:48 am

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:Ffs! I don't get why you people always cry about telehammer. It's not that hard to deal with it, trust me. The only faction that may have struggle with is IG, and to be honest, even they can come up with something decent.

Just get a fucking tank out. Thats all you need.

If Atlas really wants to stop this baby tears forever, here is a suggestion. Write some kind of '' if '' code, and do not allow teleporter to be equiped with hammer.


Not sure if that would end the tears or create more. Let's found out, am I right? :twisted:

Oddnerd wrote:Lol, get a tank out in T2. That's almost as hard as getting a tank out to counter hormagaunts.


Not impossible. Just play Eldar or OM. Probably Eldar since you don't have to pick between AI or AV on a "high-skill" race am I right?!? :lol:


....

I know I'm right.
Atlas: Minister of Common Sense, Reasoning and Similar Sh*t
User avatar
Sex - Murder - Art
Level 2
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun 21 Oct, 2018 10:25 am

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Mon 18 Feb, 2019 9:32 am

I don't think that telehammer is broken at all. People complain a lot, because thunderhammer becomes a problem when it is combined with teleporter. Weapon it self is fine, but it might be overnerfed with the last patch.

I think we should open a seperate topic for this '' if code ''. Well, I won't open one because I am fine with that combo.
There are many ways to say the right thing, and I choose the worst way to say it.
User avatar
Atlas
Moderator
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun 02 Feb, 2014 5:23 pm
Location: Tarpon Springs, FL

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby Atlas » Mon 18 Feb, 2019 5:54 pm

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:I don't think that telehammer is broken at all. People complain a lot, because thunderhammer becomes a problem when it is combined with teleporter. Weapon it self is fine, but it might be overnerfed with the last patch.

I think we should open a seperate topic for this '' if code ''. Well, I won't open one because I am fine with that combo.


Well the "if code" is not hard. In fact, it would just be a 1 requirement on both the TH and Teleporter upgrade that is just required_squad_upgrade -> reference the other upgrade -> is not present -> for reasons of usage. Not difficult in the slightest.

More of a question of if it's a good idea :P
Atlas: Minister of Common Sense, Reasoning and Similar Sh*t
User avatar
Black Relic
Level 4
Posts: 836
Joined: Mon 29 Jul, 2013 3:05 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby Black Relic » Mon 18 Feb, 2019 6:03 pm

Peoples only issue is the tracking special attack. Before that was added the weapon was meh even with the teleport.

As i mentioned before people only complain about the tracking special attack due to the damage.

Remove damage from track special attack damage and only have the special attack damage units in X radius. That is easy.

Plus i think its mainly team game peeps that complain about tele Hammer FC caz players can invest that money in FC and not be punished too hard. in 1v1 its a investment that can cost games.
"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54
User avatar
Nurland
Moderator
Posts: 1336
Joined: Mon 04 Feb, 2013 5:25 pm
Location: Eye of Error
Contact:

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby Nurland » Mon 18 Feb, 2019 6:47 pm

You could also set the teleport to put BC on cooldown. I personally don't think Tele+Hammer needs any nerfs though.
#noobcodex
User avatar
Atlas
Moderator
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun 02 Feb, 2014 5:23 pm
Location: Tarpon Springs, FL

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby Atlas » Mon 18 Feb, 2019 6:50 pm

Nurland wrote:You could also set the teleport to put BC on cooldown. I personally don't think Tele+Hammer needs any nerfs though.


If you're talking about a shared cooldown, you'd make teleport go on cooldown if you used BC too. LET'S DO IT! FC has been too good for too long!
Atlas: Minister of Common Sense, Reasoning and Similar Sh*t
User avatar
Nurland
Moderator
Posts: 1336
Joined: Mon 04 Feb, 2013 5:25 pm
Location: Eye of Error
Contact:

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby Nurland » Mon 18 Feb, 2019 7:40 pm

Could you do shared cooldown so that it only tele triggers it?
#noobcodex
User avatar
Oddnerd
Level 4
Posts: 725
Joined: Mon 27 Oct, 2014 1:50 am

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby Oddnerd » Mon 18 Feb, 2019 8:07 pm

Atlas wrote:
Nurland wrote:You could also set the teleport to put BC on cooldown. I personally don't think Tele+Hammer needs any nerfs though.


If you're talking about a shared cooldown, you'd make teleport go on cooldown if you used BC too. LET'S DO IT! FC has been too good for too long!


What I was proposing was in some way a buff, but if you just want to apply the nerf hammer then that's balance I can get behind :D
User avatar
Atlas
Moderator
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun 02 Feb, 2014 5:23 pm
Location: Tarpon Springs, FL

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby Atlas » Tue 19 Feb, 2019 2:29 am

Nurland wrote:Could you do shared cooldown so that it only tele triggers it?


Not that I know of, hence the term "shared". But maybe someone will correct me.
Atlas: Minister of Common Sense, Reasoning and Similar Sh*t
User avatar
boss
Level 3
Posts: 482
Joined: Mon 22 Aug, 2016 11:48 pm

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby boss » Tue 19 Feb, 2019 12:47 pm

How about if you want to nerf telehammer you start with a cooldown increase with the teleport its only 30 secs that's nothing and lets you spam its easy.
Forums great more shit to talk about.
User avatar
Toilailee
Champion
Posts: 894
Joined: Tue 12 Mar, 2013 8:26 pm

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby Toilailee » Tue 19 Feb, 2019 4:19 pm

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:Ffs! I don't get why you people always cry about telehammer. It's not that hard to deal with it, trust me. The only faction that may have struggle with is IG, and to be honest, even they can come up with something decent.

Err what? I don't think IG struggles with this at all really while nids cry salty tears when they're unable to do anything about it.

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:Just get a fucking tank out. Thats all you need.

*rollseyes*
Swift I: You're not a nerd, you're just a very gifted social spastic
User avatar
Atlas
Moderator
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun 02 Feb, 2014 5:23 pm
Location: Tarpon Springs, FL

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby Atlas » Wed 20 Feb, 2019 2:50 am

I'll be keeping a further eye on this thread. The whole Telehammer balance issue has been once that is forever debated so maybe some new ideas will be generated here.
Atlas: Minister of Common Sense, Reasoning and Similar Sh*t
User avatar
Dark Riku
Level 5
Posts: 2981
Joined: Sun 03 Feb, 2013 10:48 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby Dark Riku » Fri 22 Feb, 2019 2:28 pm

It's fine, L2P people.
Eternal Crusade referral code: EC-OZVT4BVATDHX6 (link)
User avatar
appiah4
Level 3
Posts: 270
Joined: Fri 06 Dec, 2013 7:30 am

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby appiah4 » Sun 03 Mar, 2019 10:24 pm

How about changing BC like this:

1. It does an immediate one-time 6 Radius AOE knockback + 20 damage + 2 damage / FC Level
2. 15 second 10% + 1% / FC Level AOE damage buff to SM units in 12 Radius

That way you are either standing with your army's ranged units and buffing them or you are among the enemy army (with your melee units) and knocking them back?
ALWAYS ANGRY!! ALL THE TIME!!
User avatar
Nurland
Moderator
Posts: 1336
Joined: Mon 04 Feb, 2013 5:25 pm
Location: Eye of Error
Contact:

Re: RE: Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby Nurland » Sun 03 Mar, 2019 11:30 pm

appiah4 wrote:How about changing BC like this:

1. It does an immediate one-time 6 Radius AOE knockback + 20 damage + 2 damage / FC Level
2. 15 second 10% + 1% / FC Level AOE damage buff to SM units in 12 Radius

That way you are either standing with your army's ranged units and buffing them or you are among the enemy army (with your melee units) and knocking them back?
Why would it need such a massive nerf?
#noobcodex
User avatar
appiah4
Level 3
Posts: 270
Joined: Fri 06 Dec, 2013 7:30 am

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby appiah4 » Sun 03 Mar, 2019 11:51 pm

We can discuss whether it needs one or not of course but I feel it's broken ina few ways:

1. It buffs units, disrupts the enemy and enhances damage output all at once which makes it kind of too useful for just 50 Energy (IIRC)
2. The special attacks for 15 seconds thing becomes a huge liability after the first hit unless
3. you are wileding a Thunder Hammer, when it becomes terribly OP thanks to tracking hits

I just thought my proposal gave it more focus while making it something more relevant to T1; I mean I'm not sure if it's exactly a 'nerf', it would probably be actually a boost for T1, though it would scale poorly into T2 and T3. However, later in the game you have things like FTE and Sacred Standard for better unit buff, wargear for better damage output and thunder hammer for better disruption anyway.. Terrible idea? You tell me. Just throwing it out there.
ALWAYS ANGRY!! ALL THE TIME!!
Telos
Level 2
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed 08 Aug, 2018 7:59 am

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby Telos » Mon 04 Mar, 2019 8:27 am

Is it possible to give the teleport a ground indicator for where he's teleporting to (similar to what you get with a droppod)?

The only issue I really see with the telehammer combination is counterplay. You have to anticipate it coming at any time and set your squads up to move at a moments notice. With the pathing of this game that's a tough proposition in the best of times. If it had a ground indicator of even half a second, I think that would be enough notice to start moving your squads outta there. As it stands, he's in your squads and knocking them around before you have much time to do much except retreat.

If an indicator of his teleport destination is impossible, what about a short recovery of something like 1s on either his other abilities or the FC himself? That should be enough time to split up your forces and at least mitigate his impact. Good players would have to wait for opportune moments to jump in or coordinate their attacks with his teleport so the enemy can't react as well.
User avatar
Nurland
Moderator
Posts: 1336
Joined: Mon 04 Feb, 2013 5:25 pm
Location: Eye of Error
Contact:

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby Nurland » Mon 04 Mar, 2019 10:02 am

Personally I don't find telehammer being that op that it needs further nerfs. It already does shitty damage with BC and buffs less than other weapons.

Appiah's battlecry proposition would make no one every buy thunderhammer or power sword. Both weapons would be more or less waste of resources. thunderhammer even more so and PS would have 0 scaling and way worse T1 performance. In essense it would be like WB stomp, except way worse.

It woud not be even a buff for T1 vanilla battle cry. Horrible buff radius and a smaller overall buff would make you only be able to buff your army if you are super blobbed up. The single time kb with meh damage would also be just garbage in most scenarios compared to current.

The only cases where it would be better is as an escape mechanism or when you try to stop a melee squad from closing in on some of your ranged stuff. Like for example covering a devastator squad reposition from a flanking melee squad. And even then that is assuming you don't have shotgun scouts who would do the same thing but better.

Telos' proposition is imho more reasonable. I would prefer the indicator if a further nerf is deemed necessary. A 10 sec cd nerf to teleporter would also be acceptable I suppose. Should come with a small price reduction though.
#noobcodex
LOCALgHOST
Level 2
Posts: 175
Joined: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 2:48 pm

Re: Split Battlecry into 2 abilities?

Postby LOCALgHOST » Wed 06 Mar, 2019 6:19 pm

All the people still nothing but whining about OP sm.

I agree with Nurland - one more nerf and you can throw out 50% FC as a complete garbage.

Return to “Balance Discussion”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 3 guests