Give CL immolate a minimum range?

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Oddnerd
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Give CL immolate a minimum range?

Postby Oddnerd » Thu 03 Jan, 2019 4:12 pm

Right now the CL can just drop immolate at his feet as a substitute for melee. Would it hurt to give him a minimum range on that spell?

You buy the combi flamer to make him a more counter-ranged commander in T1 and to clear garrisons (with bonus anti-gen anti-turret ability).


Am tempted to say the same thing about grenades, but I know how that would go.
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Re: Give CL immolate a minimum range?

Postby Cheah18 » Thu 03 Jan, 2019 7:40 pm

I quite like this idea
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Torpid
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Re: Give CL immolate a minimum range?

Postby Torpid » Fri 04 Jan, 2019 3:40 am

Yeah, this is long overdue.

Quite simply combi bolter -> anti-ranged upgrade vs halo for anti-melee.

Halo is totally pointless atm, rage gives regen, combi bolter kills melee better because it doesn't even leave him vulnerable in melee due to the immolate being castable on the ground...

Remove the bullshit and allow the CL to have an actual weakness - melee spam. This does it perfectly without making the ability worthless for its other roles.
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boss
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Re: Give CL immolate a minimum range?

Postby boss » Mon 07 Jan, 2019 1:20 am

I don't see a point in this change at all, the radius that the immolate has is 10 and range of it is 20 so if you want to give it a minimum range then it will have to be at least 10 or you will still be able to use it to hit the chaos lord. The ability it self is meh it's ok to get units out of garrisons and some aoe but you have to stand in it for a while and as you use it you not using the bolter which is 95% of why you get the combi bolter.

Combi bolter it's main use is to punish kiting units its why you see it most of the time cos people kite him,
halo are not anti melee it's to help your hero to tank more if you want to counter melee get lightning Claws or the poop stick>blood Maul don't get the poop stick always get lighting claws 8-)
Chaos lord already has a weakness since retail no av unlike most of the other offence hero's.
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Re: Give CL immolate a minimum range?

Postby Black Relic » Mon 07 Jan, 2019 5:54 am

While yes the damage radius of immolate would still reach the CL at a min cast range of 10. Only models in front of the CL would take the damage which is hardly any value for the ability usage, damage, and would not be efficient usage of the CL. The change means a squad that is able to surround the CL in melee takes significantly less damage to negligible which is the aim of the change imo. ATM its like a second anti-melee ability in t1 especially vs low hp high model count melee squads.
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Re: Give CL immolate a minimum range?

Postby oLev » Mon 07 Jan, 2019 9:52 am

I'm still not convinced why you wouldn't save that energy instead for skill the weak and get a full health chaos lord back instead to continue trolling around the map shooting at 38 range 32dps, 100% fire on the move accuracy. The combi-flamer pays off the more he stays in the field without retreating which is the other purpose of dark halo, to add an extra regenerating health pool.
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boss
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Re: Give CL immolate a minimum range?

Postby boss » Mon 07 Jan, 2019 10:25 pm

First of all low tier melee units have fire resist which already helps vs immolate 25% less damage then cos its a range attack I think it gets reduce even more cos of being in melee with the chaos lord and that's what another 50% damage reduction and it has 12 dps to start with so 4 dps now and that last for what 15 secs even standing it all of that you won't kill a hormagaunts squad :lol: and you call that anti melee.

I think I be more scared of nades at my feet than immolate you have a case for nades having a minimum range.
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Torpid
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Re: Give CL immolate a minimum range?

Postby Torpid » Tue 08 Jan, 2019 12:25 pm

boss wrote:First of all low tier melee units have fire resist which already helps vs immolate 25% less damage then cos its a range attack I think it gets reduce even more cos of being in melee with the chaos lord and that's what another 50% damage reduction and it has 12 dps to start with so 4 dps now and that last for what 15 secs even standing it all of that you won't kill a hormagaunts squad :lol: and you call that anti melee.

I think I be more scared of nades at my feet than immolate you have a case for nades having a minimum range.


On the topic of flame resist:

Catachans have flame resist too, except they got roasted like marshmallows by tac flamers
So do heretics, you seen what burnas do to them?
Without flame resist these squads would die absurdly quick, the nature of melee units is they are not able to kite low-range flamers hence why its mostly them that get it.
They still get rekt by flamers.

Immolate isn't a ranged attack, it's a spell that isn't even specifically targeting a squad, rather the ground, like immolate, so you don't get ranged damage resistance on it.

And there's no need to compare its potency vs melee to other anti melee options, it's merely a principle of:
Would it be balanced without it? Yes.
What is the design of the wargear? To add sustains bleed potential to the CL especially when chasing units (which are mostly ranged units).
Why would it be a bad idea to not make it help him vs melee? I have no idea.

DA don't really need buffs or nerfs atm, they're pretty decent in their performance I'd say, and scouts are literally a melee counter. I really don't see a need for nade spiking to be removed. It's a secondary skill-shot for other units like kasrkin and stormtroopers who get nades in the later game.

oLev wrote:I'm still not convinced why you wouldn't save that energy instead for skill the weak and get a full health chaos lord back instead to continue trolling around the map shooting at 38 range 32dps, 100% fire on the move accuracy. The combi-flamer pays off the more he stays in the field without retreating which is the other purpose of dark halo, to add an extra regenerating health pool.


You use both. You use kill the weak first to weaken them since the damage it does is actually really low and certainly won't kill models, at this point 1 melee squad can sometimes still win if it has upgrades and it didn't get shot on approach, if you have 2 squads you can efinitely win, but... not so easily if he also has combi bolter that's gonna instantly force off 1 of the squads. You'd take way too much bleed for it to be worth it. It just seems totally contrary to the purpose of the combi bolter as an anti-ranged upgrade. I don't think it needs anti melee utility.

You don't need dark halo for the regen because the armour of rage itself gives a hp regen whilst being cheaper, having synergy with raptors and making kill the weak more effective via having a larger max hp pool.
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boss
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Re: Give CL immolate a minimum range?

Postby boss » Tue 08 Jan, 2019 6:02 pm

I still don't get why you are crying about this flame resist already gives these low tiers high model melee squads a good 25% damage resistance and I like to know if units get the damage resistance for being in melee cos it don't count as a melee weapon and it a range ability, like lets say smite from a libby I know that that does less damage to units in melee so I can only go from that it follows to immolate and if it does your point become even more useless.

Sluggas, hormagaunts. heretics and catas should never be in melee with a chaos lord anyways he's just going to kill the weak you and tank more while outlasting the squad hell chaos lord not even killy till he gets the combi flamer and you really think people to buy this for these units to flame them at his feet yea sure, you literally have to stand it a 10 radius and wait for 15 sec to do much how you counter this idk move the fuck out of this mind shocking. My god you make it sound like blight grenades you know those can instance gib a sluggas, hormagaunts and such if you look away for 1 sec.

Also weren't you the were saying chaos lord was shit and all of that and now he broken cos he can flame his feet :lol:

Nades as far as I know was not designed to be shit out of units arses and nuke melee squads as they chase, scouts are not a melee counter till you know they get shotguns :shock:
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Oddnerd
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Re: Give CL immolate a minimum range?

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 08 Jan, 2019 10:49 pm

boss wrote:Nades as far as I know was not designed to be shit out of units arses and nuke melee squads as they chase, scouts are not a melee counter till you know they get shotguns :shock:


This is what I've always felt, especially when you have melee units who often engage in an animation to get into melee, making it impossible to dodge after a certain point.

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