D-cannons and what they are now

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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boss
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D-cannons and what they are now

Postby boss » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 8:24 pm

Well since 2.4 I founds d-cannons to be weaker and alot harder to use due to there new firing pattern.
Now the reasons why people wanted it nerf was cos

1. Did full damage on retreat, 220 plasma_cannon_pvp very bad news for anything
2. Once started windup it track the target and still fired even outside of firing arc and into fog of war
3. Almost 100% accuracy even outside of firing arc

But here the thing the new firing pattern don't really change anything about this the only thing it change was the upfront damage 110 plasma _cannon_ pvp and 120 more in the aoe thing, so the firing pattern has not change the reasons why people wanted it nerf, it only made it worse at upfront damage which is what you want from artillery t3 artillery mind you.

So as it lost half of its upfront damage it now rely on you standing still in front of it for it to do full damage and that's why I call it weaker and harder to use I don't like the firing pattern of it, it was a lazy change they barley solved the reason for the nerfs It only made it weaker at artillery.
So I would like the old firing pattern with the nerfs that should have gone in a long time ago what you guys think? am I Crazy or think it could be done.
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Re: D-cannons and what they are now

Postby Torpid » Sat 17 Nov, 2018 6:18 am

What nerfs are you suggesting instead?
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Re: D-cannons and what they are now

Postby boss » Sat 17 Nov, 2018 11:08 am

Torpid wrote:What nerfs are you suggesting instead?


Return old firing pattern for

Reduce the damage on retreat like all other range weapons this should have been easy to do in the first place.
Stop it from firing once outside of firing range now I know autocannons do this but there much be a way, other setup team don't fire outside of firing range.
Reduce its accuracy on retreating units idk if this can be done but if you reduce its damage on retreat then this should not be not been needed anyways

Another thing you could do is lower some of its damage and let it suppression on hit with the old firing pattern so not just damage but some control least that's what I think.

But like I say I give it 2 or so years with the new changes to them and I don't like them at all.
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Asmon
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Re: D-cannons and what they are now

Postby Asmon » Sat 17 Nov, 2018 4:41 pm

Actually every set-up team fires on any target if it is still in range when the unit is past half in its wind-up animation.

It's very much obvious on d-cannons which has a long wind-up followed by a shorter idle time before firing, but you can also notice it on lascannons.

I also don't like the current d-cannons. With a come back to the old firing pattern and damage (so no more DoT), we could reduce damage on retreating units to begin with, then I would test the following: d-cannons fires too bursts per wind-up in very quick succession, each doing 110 plasma_cannon_pvp.

This way you have a chance to hit retreat and avoid 80% of damage from the second burst if you're quick to react.

Insta suppression sounds a bit op to me.
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Re: D-cannons and what they are now

Postby boss » Sun 18 Nov, 2018 2:16 am

The whole point of the change is to make it do all the damage again in 1 shot, like the rest of the setup teams artillery. Changing it from damage over time to 2 shots just makes it odd and again spreads out the damage which then make's it a weaker setup team artillery, you want them to hit hard otherwise why go for it?
The only good thing about them now is singularity and If that's the only reason why people don't want old firing pattern with the right nerfs then singularity can get look at as well.
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Re: D-cannons and what they are now

Postby Torpid » Sun 18 Nov, 2018 9:47 pm

The way I see it it doing all of its damage in 1-shot was the problem. They are quite spammable in the late-game and due to the long range and rangers with the long line of sight often 2 d-cannons will shoot your units from outside of the fog of war and insta-wipe it. At least with p-devs you can see the projectile and thus have time to retreat. With d-cannons you don't.

I remember how before they would 2-shot a venom brood. Pretty hilariously broken tbh.

So no, I don't support that idea.
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Re: D-cannons and what they are now

Postby boss » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 12:29 am

You can spam anything in the late game apart from super units and I like to know what you consider a spam number? cos 2 not spam.

What you described between rangers and d-cannons combo is what scouts and pdevs can do just abit less range and being able to do in t2 onwards where d-cannons you have to wait till t3 and well t3 stuff should be better in there roles than t2 stuff. Seeing projectiles means very little you should be able to hear them before they shoot all of the setup teams arty have very easy to hear sounds and least d-cannons have the longest windup time so more time to listen, just even if you retreat it did full damage so you get force off and still take loss's even sometimes if your unlucky a wipe that was the main problem.

Anything 2 shots venom brood cos there venom brood :(

Not doing all its damage in one go made it weaker and now means you now need the target to stand in, it just made it crap as it lost over half it's damage in this change and it shows not many people get d-cannons now rarely even, you often see more fire prisms then d-canons even in team games where setup team rule, people have lost faith in there performance including myself would be nice if people said so them self's now.
But like I said D-cannons are t3 supposedly should be the best setup team arty cos of this and yet other than abit more range and singularity there not.
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Re: D-cannons and what they are now

Postby Torpid » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 4:22 am

Scotus don't have as long sight range as rangers and cannot infiltrate as long. I also don't play with sounds on so not particularly sure what to make of that comment. But seeing the P-dev shot slowly travelling forward allows you to hit retreat. It also lets vehicles dodge it. D-cannons you don't see it, so with merely 2 you can easily wipe squads. Also makes d-cannons so much better vs vehicles, they are basically hard AV, or they would be with their previous damage type. And it was OP.
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Re: D-cannons and what they are now

Postby boss » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 1:23 pm

Scouts have 5 less sight range than rangers 2nd best clearly scouts have shit sight range, before rangers get energy regen on pathfinder scouts had more with elite training so you can spam it more and how long do you need to infiltrate for to find out where your opponent stuff is 10 years? Were not talking about scouts vs ranger anyways.

You know we don't mod units around if you got the game sounds on how retarded is that comment if you bother to turn them on you can hear them in the fog of war and guess where they are, you often hear them before you see them.

You know you keep saying seeing projectiles means you can retreat, dependent on what range the target is to the shot as close to mid range you have about 0.5 secs or 1sec to react at mid to long range about 1.5 to 2 secs to react not very slow ball is it or it means you press retreat and do it all over again and just giving them free shots at you cos you being way to carful around them instead of just bumrushing them so they don't fire on you.

Only transports can doge projectiles at full speed and even still you can get hit by some of it aoe, D-cannons before only really missed fast moving vehicles but again we can look at its accuracy for the change back would be nice if atlas can say something on this, 2 of any arty can wipe squads apart from Stikkbommaz you now need like 6 of them :lol:

So now we went from wiping squads on retreat to hard av op reasons well sorry to say any arty setup teams can be good av only diffence is d-canons is t3 and should be better and like I said you can easily mod the old damage type to where it not so bad accuracy, damage whatever as before instead of completely reworking it and making it crap which is what has happen now.

Come up with better reasons torpid so far you are just nit-picking and just coming up with anything you can still find the sound comment funny :lol:
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Re: D-cannons and what they are now

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 2:43 pm

The Dcans base attack are in an ok spot atm
The problem was that they always hit their targets no matter what with massive damage.
This made them also extremely effective as AV.
On top of singularity being the bonkers ability that it is.
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Hex
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Re: D-cannons and what they are now

Postby Hex » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 8:48 pm

perhaps if this happens and d cannons gets their old form back shouldnt also plasma devs get it too? this way both these changes are on par and somewhat balancing each other out, regardless, i agree with what the OP suggested.
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Re: D-cannons and what they are now

Postby boss » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 10:38 pm

I still don't see the problem with the old firing pattern with the right nerfs that should have been put in a long time ago instead of the new pattern it only ruined it and made it so it's rarely brought cos of the damage over time so it can't be ok if no one buys it no more. I talk to a lot of people in game over steam and discord and they agree D-cannons don't perform arty very well at all just singularity and abit more range is somewhat worth them.
So I propose these changes old firing pattern for
Reduce damage from 220 plasma_cannon_pvp to 190 or 200, reduce damage on retreating units to normal to what range weapons have
Reduce accuracy idk the vales so what everworks
Singularity damage on retreating units reduce to something more fair
Surly this should be fine?
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Sex - Murder - Art
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Re: D-cannons and what they are now

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Tue 20 Nov, 2018 7:03 am

What if you change their firing similar to Wraithguard, so units can actually have a chance to dodge them? And also we can get back to good ol' high damage D-Cannons unlike these current crappy ones. Because not gonna lie, I don't get to see them kill anything with their default attacks.
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Re: D-cannons and what they are now

Postby oLev » Wed 21 Nov, 2018 3:31 am

Can their base attack get better sparkly eldar effects to show where you're being hit?
Firing pattern shouldn't auto track moving units because that shit was cancer in retail, just compare Elite and Retail Zoans for example.
More frontloaded damage would be fair if there was a better indication of where it was winding up to hit so there is more reward for manual attack ground use and skillshot combos with kinetic shot, warp throw or even time it in the middle of a singularity etc.
If terrain clipping was removed so the shot literally teleports to where you target ground it could be a decisive advantage as an artillery platform. AFAIK it is impossible to shoot up the ramps to the high ground on Fedrids Folly without clipping the ground.
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Re: D-cannons and what they are now

Postby Thibix Magnus » Wed 21 Nov, 2018 10:52 am

aaaaaaaaaa... (petty mode on) been saying it since the nerf happened yeaaaars ago

effectively halving the D-Cannon damage against inherently moving targets such as vehicles felt like particularly reckless as far as nerfs go, and never called for at that time. You might still deal more than 50% damage against a sleeping tank, but a melee walker has only one attack click to follow and systematically avoids the follow-up damage, unlike e.g. plasma cannon that is a good supplement against melee walkers.

A modification should deal with 1 problem and avoid affecting other situations. The rationale was, D-cannons can wipe HI without counterplay. It was never about too much AV at the time, maybe I'm wrong but no one seemed to complain about it being too good vs vehicles. Previous D-cannon seemed (among other roles) a simply good AV option as T3 complement, just as lascannons or deffguns can be. It was one of the very few flexible units of the roster, was another choice when FP is too risky. It feels like affecting the D-cannon so radically (without even a price reduction) spiraled in the perception of a now weak-ish T3.

Besides a cool shot visual tracer was removed for a balance change, which was a bit sad.

An alternative to other suggestions would be return to the old pattern and create a new damage type that affects a bit less HI than SHI and vehicles.
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Re: D-cannons and what they are now

Postby boss » Sun 25 Nov, 2018 7:56 pm

I Guess a new damage type can work as well, along with no tracking for the old firing pattern I can see that working with much less damage on retreat.
So you get all the damage in one go but less to HI, SHI and vehicles with no tracking should be no problem, can also look at singularity nerf if people are going to bitch about that and use it as a reason for d-cannons not to be good arty.
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Re: D-cannons and what they are now

Postby lomors » Sat 01 Dec, 2018 4:46 pm

Getting old animation for d-cannon would be something superb. Basic attack we have now is.. I mean. It can damage. But it has such a small area of effect it only matters when you forget about getting out of it. Singularity is a strong anti-infantry ability, I feel like basic attack whatever the damage is could do some soft av damage.

And if you really don't want to change its basic attack just give it bigger aoe.
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Re: D-cannons and what they are now

Postby boss » Sun 02 Dec, 2018 3:32 am

On this subject I found a damage type that fit a lot of what people want less damage to vehicle and less to heavy infantry and such its autocannon_pvp
damage vs. armor
building 1.35
building defence 1
building ig turret 1
building light 1.5
commander 0.75
heavy infantry 1
infantry 1
infantry fire resist 1
super heavy infantry 1
vehicle 0.75
Put this on the D-cannons with the old firing pattern then just make sure it don't do full damage on retreat and look at its accuracy done they can go back to old ways with nerf damage type and just other changes I don't see what wrong with this?
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