2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Atlas
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2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Atlas » Sun 28 Oct, 2018 10:39 pm

o/

Hey guys! For those of you who have been watching the patch making streams, which you can find at https://www.twitch.tv/atlastheinquiring , you're not seeing anything new here. The sheet is almost entirely copy/paste from the stream.

For those who haven't, however, there have been a couple revisions from the 2.9 Beta sheet you had seen earlier. There might still be a few revisions to this, but I'm just letting people know in case they haven't seen the streams here.

Bugs
Just get them fixed.
Purifier Justicar hp regen has been corrected whilst the squad is at level 2.

Maps
Unimportant right now for balance talk.

Gameplay
Black Relic will be handling this part. We’ll try to make transports load and unload a bit more reliably, and we’ll make jump squads jump as a unit more reliably. However, give up anything on vehicle pathing.

Auras/Abilities
The following abilities have been changed to affect only your own army or be affected by your own army.

Cloaking Shroud
Sacred Standard
Defend
Advanced Healing
Boss Pole
Stubbornness (LC only stacks on his own troops, not all troops around him)
Aura of Discipline
None Shall Fall

This list has been trimmed down to what is the real “problem” abilities in team games. It’s tempting to add Spiritual Rites and Breath of Nurgle to this list but this hits what really counts. We could reiterate and add more to the list in a later patch if this batch is successful.

Chaos Space Marines

Chaos Lord:
Blood Maul cost reduced from 150/50 to 140/40.
Daemonic Visage cost reduced from 125/35 to 125/30.

Chaos Sorcerer:
Curse of Tzeentch range increased from 30 to 35.
Range is already 40.
Curse of Tzeentch no longer deals friendly fire.
Curse of Tzeentch damage type changed from piercing to plasma.
Curse of Tzeentch range increased from 30 to 35.
Curse of Tzeentch duration reduced from 25 seconds to 15 seconds.
Curse of Tzeentch increases incoming damage by 20% for 15s. Effect is not cancelled in retreat.

Too many changes here at the same time. Let’s try the doom effect and see how it goes.
Warp energy cost increased from 30 to 35.

Raptor Squad:
Daemonic Fury damage reduced from 150 to 120.

Land Raider Phobos:
Cost increased from 700/160 to 700/180.
Came up in stream.

Eldar

Warlock:
Destructor cast delay increased from .2 to .5.
A counter suggestion to the Destructor damage nerf. Looked like it worked in the live test.

Farseer:
Runes of Reaping cooldown reduction of Guide reduced from 25% to 15%. Other effects remain.
This was brought up during the stream.

Howling Banshees:
Upkeep cost increased from 2.16 to 2.55.
Exarch cost reduced from 90/20 to 80/20.

Rangers:
Cost increased from 210/20 to 220/25.
Pathfinder Gear cost reduced from 75/20 to 75/15.
Pathfinder Gear damage increase changed from +25% damage to +15% damage. (75 to 69)

Wraithguard:
Wraithcannon courage damage increased from 30 to 40.
Spiritseer upkeep increased from 1.5 to 2.55.
Spiritseer Destructor range increased from 38 to 44.
Squad speed increased from 2.5 to 3.
Wraithsight speed increase reduced from 1.5 to 1.
Squad is no longer stunned for X seconds upon the death of a nearby Wraithsight user.
EDIT: This one got revised a lot on stream.

Autarch:
Skyleap energy cost reduced from 80 to 60.
Didn't check to see if this got properly fixed at the end.

Dark Reaper Squad:
Aspect of Reaper no longer passively increases the squad’s speed by .5 or increase the squad’s damage by 10%.
Aspect of Reaper now changes the damage type of Reaper Launchers from inferno_pvp to plasma_pvp.
Aspect of Reaper cost increase from 65/25 to 75/25.

This one needs to be rethought a bit as it’s a big change. The feedback here is very… sporadic... to be frank, and we’re making other big changes.

Fire Dragons:
Squad and Exarch upkeep increased from 2.5 to 2.55.

Warp Spider Squad:
Squad and Exarch upkeep increased from 2.39 to 2.55.
Haywire Grenade cooldown increased from 40 to 48 seconds.

Wraithlord:
Wraithbone health regeneration reduced from 70 hp/s to 35 hp/s.
This should really be added. It’s simply far too fast. We could maybe adjust this to make it heal less over more time but, frankly, this unit is cheaper and more versatile than most of its contemporaries already and is due for a nerf.

EDIT: Didn't appear to work correctly in live testing, needs another look.


Fire Prism:
Focused Beam damage type changed from plasma_cannon_pvp to explosive_pvp.
Focused Beam damage per hit reduced from 160 to 145.
Focused Beam windup reduced from 1.5 to 1.
This is a refinement after feedback which questioned the need to make such a big change. The objective of this change is to keep the Focused Beam from 1-shotting setup team models like Havocs and Devastators but with less of an effect in other areas. The lowered damage will do that, and the adjustment to the firing windup should keep the weapon at roughly the same dps as it is right now. If more math needs to be done, so be it and we’ll review. I’m fairly confident though.

Imperial Guard

Inquisitor:
Interrogator’s Armor now grants +100 hp in addition to its normal effects.
Excruciators cost increased from 140/20 to 130/25.
Assail range reduced from 38 to 35.

Lord Commissar:
Flak Jacket cost reduced from 150/30 to 125/30.
Flare red cost increased from 75 to 100.
Air Dropped Mines snare duration reduced from 30 seconds to 15 seconds.
Mines not done as of right now.

Guardsman Squad:
Sergeant population increased from 1 to 2.
Commissar population increased from 1 to 3.
Note to remember to adjust upkeep.
Reinforcement time increased from 2 seconds to 3 seconds.
Came up in stream as an alternative to Chim nerf.

Sentinel:
Cost increased from 300/0 to 330/0.
New change that came up in stream.
Upkeep increased from 1.7 to 2.55.
Stomp radius reduced from 10 to 8.
Population reduced from 15 to 12.
If we’re going to nerf this unit then nerf it. As is, this would offset the GM pop changes especially in a 2-sent build. Why bother with that set of changes if that’s the case?

Stormtrooper Squad:
Upkeep increased from 2.05 to 2.55.

Spotters:
Flare Shell upgrade moved from T2 to T1.
Flare Shell cost reduced from 75/10 to 50/10.

Let’s dump this as it’s ultimately not important. We’re making far bigger changes to this faction and we can come back to it if after the changes we feel the need.

Chimera:
Cost increased from 300/60 to 300/70.
This with the GM changes should be the most impactful changes to the roster for 2.9.
EDIT: Swapped out for GM nerf.


Ogryns:
Cost reduced from 425/90 to 400/85.
Reinforce cost increased from 61/13 to 66/14.
Bone 'ead Cost reduced from 100/25 to 85/25.

Leman Russ Battle Tank:
Default cannon reload reduced 1s.
Hull Lascannon damage reduced from 65 to 60.
Hull Lascannon cooldown reduced from 6 to 4. (8s -> 6s fire time)

Again, dump because it’s a set of changes that’s not important. They MIGHT be nice, but it also lacks any real support and ultimately is a very fine tune.

Ordo Malleus

Brother Captain:
Nemesis Deamonhammer cost reduced from 135/40 to 130/35.
Psychic Lash now requires T2 to unlock. (UI Positions of Enfeeble and Lash now swapped)
The Lash change is more of an Aegis nerf. Setups are one of the few things that can shut down Aegis + 2 Strikes in T1 and the Lash easily erases 1 setup team from the fight while the BC can face-tank through the 2nd. Just moving to T2 is probably the simplest change to do. This is something that might be a rework candidate.
Vortex no longer deals damage to targets hit.
Vortex now stuns and knocks back units hit for 7 seconds upon detonation.
This is far less of a problem to buff due to it being exclusive to Aegis. Stun and knockback, like Stomp, is useful for getting a setup team out of cover and more vulnerable to attack. As is, there’s no jump option for OM so the wipe potential of this is fairly minimal. But it helps IST and Ranged Strikes a lot to not have units instantly backpedal or just go back into cover. The ability still deals friendly fire, so at best it’ll only be useful as an escape mechanism in melee fights and is very bad to try and use as close support for retreating Terms.

Inquisitorial Stormtroopers:
Sergeant and Acolyte upkeep reduced from 5.1 to 2.55.
Grenade Launcher Barrage knockback grenade count increased from 1 to 4. (3 might be better right now it fires 3 and then 1)
Probably more worthy of being called a bug, but it should happen.
Grenade Launcher weapon profile changed to the following:
Burst 1-1, reload frequency 2-2 cooldown 0.5, windup 0 winddown 0 reload duration 5-5.
Sargeant no longer grants the Frag Grenade ability.
Sargeant now grants the Rapid Fire ability.

Rapid Fire -
“Temporarily overcharge the squad’s lasguns. For 10 seconds, the IST lasguns do not need to reload. Grenade Launchers are not affected. Energy cost set to 75. 30 second cooldown.”

This is a massive change that, combined with the Grenade Launcher changes and the presence of Plasma Guns, causes more problems than it solves. The grenade, while very unsexy, is functioning and has a role.

Sargeant no longer grants +15% damage to the squad.
Sargeant Laspistol dps increased from 8 to 12. (19.42 to 29.13 dph)
This shifts the damage bonus onto the Sargeant, which affects the squad’s special weapon scaling. If we’re going to make Grenade Launchers good, this should be a part of the package. Just consider it.

Acolyte no longer passively grants +2.5 hp/s to the squad.
Fanaticism no longer grants the squad invulnerability for 2.5 seconds.
Fanaticism duration increased from 2.5 seconds to 10 seconds.
Fanaticism now increases the squad’s health regeneration by 2.5 hp/s for the duration of the effect. Other effects remain.
This is a pretty massive and, imo, necessary nerf to the Acolyte. It also gives his Fanaticism ability more of a mainstay purpose instead of a quirky gimmick. I think it’s worth adding in as there’s some consensus that the Acolyte is bonkers but no real consensus on what to change.

Strike Squad:
Squad is now in melee stance by default.
Justicar equipped with Psybolt Ammunition can now use Energy Burst.
Purification now requires either Nemesis Force or Psybolt Ammunition to use.
This is a necessary nerf against the Aegis build. Aegis itself is a pretty standard shield, but OM provides amazing support for it. Putting a 15 power gate behind that support (or more if multiple Strike squads) should help alleviate the problem without making the Aegis too weak to be used in a non-abuse build. The upgrades themselves are worthwhile to get and are not a real large hoop to jump to unlock Purification.

Inquisitorial Operatives:
Cost reduced from 250/30 to 230/25.
Squad and Sergeant upkeep reduced from 3.2 to 2.55.
Incendiary Grenade residual damage per second increased from 5 to 10.
Incendiary Grenade residual damage type changed from flamer_pvp to combi_flamer_pvp.
(I’ll need to make a note to make sure that these are tuned to not stack on top of each other.)
Blind Grenade duration increased from 7 seconds to 10 seconds.
Blind Grenade flight speed increased by 20%.
Blind/Incendiary Grenade range increased from 25/30 to 40.

We’re using the Vindicare as the primary anti-setup now, so let’s just make this squad as accessible as possible ala Rangers. A support squad, not really a “primary” combat squad. This set of changes makes the squad cheaper both on cost and on upkeep and offers decent bump ups to their grenades. We can potentially nerf their dps later if needed.

Purgation Squad:
Squad once more is equipped with 3x Incinerators and Psilencers.

Vindicare Assassin:
Unit moved from T2 to T1.
Upkeep increased from 4.08 to 5.1.
Exitus Rifle damage profile has now changed to the following:
Default rifle (Exitus) now: 90 damage, 2s cooldown, 3s reload (18 dps, scouts 13, rangers 12/15)
Cameleoline Stealth Suit upgrade is now available in T1.
Cameleoline Stealth Suit grants 125 health and adds a 50% damage bonus to Target Acquired in addition to its normal effects.
Target Acquired Energy cost increased from 60 to 75.
Target Acquired cooldown reduced from 45 to 30.
Equip Exitus/Turbo-Penetrator Rounds ability now requires the Extended Operations upgrade.
Extended Operations now requires T2 to purchase.
Extended Operations no longer grants +125 hp. Other effects remain.
Extended Operations now unlocks the Equip Exitus/ Turbo Penetrator Rounds ability.
Exitus Rifle(Turbo) damage profile has now changed to the following:
Turbo Penetrator Rounds: 100 damage, 2s cooldown, 3s reload.

Extended Operations upgrade is now available in T1.
Target Acquired now requires the Extended Operations upgrade.
Equip Exitus/Turbo Penetrator Rounds ability now requires the Cameoline Stealth Suit.
Way, way too many moving parts here at the same time. It needs to be parsed down to as simple and understandable as possible. The Exitus change is necessary. But the upgrade moving doesn’t make sense. Perma-stealth in cover in T1 is pretty cancerous, especially when you add in 50% damage buffs. Still, the VA is extremely fragile. An OM player needs the VA to be sturdy enough to survive getting jumped or knocked back. Extended Operations already does that, so move that down to T1. It also puts a gate on Target Acquired which is very powerful early on. The Stealth Suit is then left to be the gate for the AV ability. Letting the AV ability be unlocked in T2 automatically is another route, but I’m very concerned about the speed of OM AV at that point. This set of changes keeps the setup of the VA as simple as possible as the issue with the VA had nothing to do with its performance or upgrades but its new T1 status.

Rhino:
Upkeep increased from 2.08 to 2.55.
Lascannon build time reduced from 30 seconds to 15 seconds.
Lascannon damage per hit increased from 100 to 125.
What’s important here? Making the LasRhino more accessible. We’ll wait and see on the rest now.

Terminator Librarian:
Upkeep increased from 4.08 to 5.1.
Sanctuary energy cost reduced from 65 to 60.

Grey Knight Terminators:
Upkeep increased from 2.55 to 2.91.
Squad is now capped at 1 per player.
Yes Cyris, this needs to be in! Not having a red cost is a big problem. Only in extreme lategame scenarios in 1v1 will this even matter when you already have 1x Paladins and 1x GK Terms. This is more teamgame oriented where it is far easier to access that kind of composition.

Paladin Squad:
Upkeep increased from 2.55 to 2.91.

Land Raider Crusader:
Cost reduced from 750/180 to 700/180.

Orks
Lootas:
Hide da Gunz now costs 15 red to activate.
Deffgun long range threshold changed from 49 range to 35 range.

Stikkbommas:
Stikkbomb damage increased from 35 to 40.
EDIT: There was some talk about stikks in stream, but nothing came from it.

Wartrukk:
Upkeep increased from 1.275 to 2.55.

Kommandos:
Kommando Nob upkeep increased from .6 to 2.55.
Luv da Dakka red cost increased from 5 to 15. (check on this. Might be 5 PER member)

Space Marines

Globals:
Drop Pod cost changed from 300/0/100 to 325/0/125.
This has probably been the single biggest thing that I’ve heard. Lowering the red cost just reinforces the role of a mid T1 timing push and the tac spam meta. We want this to be accessible, but not to the point that whole metas are built around it!
Drop Pod breaks up on impact (still deals damage / knockback) and no longer reinforces.
Drop Pod no longer reinforces after landing.
Drop Pod health reduced from 500 to 75.
This is just swapping the Pod to the dummy Pod already in code that drops. It still gives red on destruction so that’s a minor nerf to the ability compared to your suggestion.
Venerable Dreadnought Drop Pod cost reduced from 600/50/300 to 500/50/300.

Force Commander:
Teleport wargear replaced with Jump Pack wargear that grants the Leap ability, which deals knockback.
Jump Pack cost set to 100/30. Available in T2.

Teleport delay increased from 0 seconds to 1 second.
I know you reallly want this in, but this is another case where it might cause more problems than it solves. The FC doesn’t need access to even more knockback. If this was without knockback, maybe. But it’s just a set that makes a lot of changes to make a small adjustment. An increase in the delay will provide roughly the same time the FC would take jumping to the target instead and is far simpler all around.

Techmarine:
Bionics melee damage bonus increased from 15% to 20%.
Axe of the Mechanicum now grants +100 hp in addition to its other effects.
Axe of the Mechanicum cost increased from 100/20 to 100/25.
Plasma Gun cost increased from 120/30 to 120/35.
This is pretty close to what the feedback says.

Apothecary:
Customized Storm Bolter auto-fire damage reduced from 35 to 17.5. (½)
We’re bug-fixing this thing first so let’s see where we are at once that is in.
Armor of the Apothecarion speed bonus condition changed from out of combat to in combat.
Armor of the Apothecarion no longer grants bonus speed to the Apothecary.
This one was rightly pointed out as a bad idea by the feedback. AoA makes the Apo far too slippery to effectively snipe without having a lot of assault in your arsenal. The speed bonus in general is just bizarre so removing it is probably the simplest fix.

Sternguard Veteran Squad:
Vengeance Rounds damage modifier vs vehicles reduced from .5 to .45.
Again, unnecessary and ultimately unimportant.

Whirlwind:
Cost reduced from 360/50 to 280/70.
Unit no longer has the Hunter Seeker ability.

Speed reduced from 6 to 5.
Turret rotation rate increased from 40 to 48.
Unit cap reduced from 2 per player to 1 per player.
Very hacksaw-like, but more discussion is needed on what to do with it. I say we table redesign decisions here and just deal with the major problem which is spammability in teams.

Tyranids

Globals:
Tyrannoformation Towers no longer grant red to opponents who destroy them.
Spawn Tyrant Guard cost changed from 300/50/175 to 300/40/200.
Spawn Venom Brood cost reduced from 300/0/150 to 300/0/125.
Mycetic Spores cost reduced from 400/0/175 to 350/0/150.
Again, not kicking the beehive for very incremental changes. Far larger changes will likely affect how these two globals will be evaluated.

Synapse Backlash:
Backlash now deals 8% damage to all targets.
Backlash damage against Genestealers reduced from 18% to 12%.
Knockback distance on backlash reduced by 25%.
The scale of the changes here are roster changing. What really needs to change here? Genestealers. So let’s get that and the knockback and come back if needed.

Hive Tyrant:
Bioplasma cast time reduced from 4 seconds to 3 seconds.

Ravener Alpha:
Tunnel experience yield reduced from 75 to 50.
Hardened Carapace cost reduced from 120/25 to 110/20.
Hardened Carapace health increase increased from 100 to 150.
Damage Synapse cost increased from 120/35 to 120/40.
Regenerate cost reduced from 150/30 to 120/30.
Corrosive Devourer cost reduced from 150/50 to 130/40.

Again, hit the important, leave the rest.

Lictor Alpha:
Corrosive Claws no longer slows enemy vehicles by 25% and increases damage taken to units by 20% on hit.
Corrosive Claws damage type changed from melee_pvp to heavy_melee_pvp.
Corrosive Claws damage per hit increased from 51 to 60.

This one’s my bad. I tried to make this thing simpler but frankly, it’s not needed. For now. I still have concerns about this when considering the new AV situation but fuck it.

Hormagaunt Squad:
Upkeep reduced from 3.825 to 2.55.

Termagant Squad:
Upkeep reduced from 3.825 to 2.55.

Endless Swarm:
Build time reduced from 30 seconds to 15 seconds.
Upgrade now adds 2 models to the squad rather than increasing the squad’s hp by 10%.

Warrior Brood:
Upkeep increased from 2.55 to 3.825.
Size reduced from medium to small.
Hp increased from 340 to 350. (1020 to 1050)
Barbed Stranger cost reduced from 50/25 to 50/20.
Barbed_strangler_pvp damage vs garrison increased from 3 to 5.
Adrenal Glands no longer grant the squad Reverse Synapse.
Adrenal Glands squad health increase reduced from 50% to 30%.
Adrenal Glands is no longer exclusive to the Thorax Swarm upgrade.
Electroshock Grubs weapon disable duration increased from 2 seconds to 8 seconds.

Electroshock Grubs no longer disables weaponry upon detonation.
So many changes, let’s see how they do. We’re moving too many parts of the Nid AV at the same time and this is the easiest to cut without messing with other things.

Ravener Brood:
Squad now starts with the anti_infantry_ranged decorator.
Sight increased from 38 to 40.
Devourer range increased from 34 to 38.
Enhanced Muscle Coil cost increased from 40/10 to 50/15.
Squad can now enter garrisons.
Burrow Strike ability is now only usable by Default and EMC Raveners.
Raveners now have the Corrosive Devourers upgrade available in T2 for 100/30.
Corrosive Devourers upgrade is exclusive with the Enhanced Muscle Coil upgrade.

Corrosive Devourers-
“Equip the squad with Corrosive Devourers, effective against all infantry. X dps inferno range 38. Squad loses the ability to Burrow Strike.”

Raveners aren’t a bad squad. The purpose of this set was to provide the roster with ranged damage scaling. But making Venoms more accessible and usable will change this equation a lot on top of upkeep changes. Let’s wait and see.

Venom Brood:
Upkeep increased from 2.55 to 3.825.
Size reduced from medium to small.
Hp increased from 340 to 350. (1020 to 1050)
Venom Cannon range increased from 44 to 48.
Venom Cannon damage per hit increased from 30 to 40.
The problem with the Venom AV isn’t the range. It’s range is ultimately sufficient and its closest equivalent, Tankbustas, operate just fine at the same range. The biggest difference is that the Venom completely lacks the damage to actually threaten vehicles versus their risk in being popped. It makes no sense to make it in the same ballpark of damage as Tankbustas as Venoms offer support to the army and also has both a long range poke and a snare on its roster, but a bump up to its damage will be fine. Synapse creatures don’t stack on each other, so the concern of overbuffing is minimal here.

Tyrant Guard:
Speed increased from 3.5 to 4.
Tyrant Guard speed increase under Synapse reduced from 1.5 to 1.
This one has come up a few times in feedback and it would help the unit a lot.

Zoanthrope:
Upkeep increased from 2.55 to 3.825.
Squad now has the Symbiosis upgrade. Available in T3.
Symbiosis upgrade replaces Focused Warp Blast with Symbiosis ability. Cost set to 75/15.
(need to update the UI)

Symbiosis -
“Target an allied Tyranid and heal them for up to 30% of their max health over 10 seconds. The Zoanthrope is immobile while channeling the ability. Range 15, 75 second cooldown. Energy cost set to 60.”
The ability has a pretty healthy range and cooldown, so they’re all toned down.

Genestealers:
Cost changed from 400/45 to 360/50.
Reinforce time reduced from 5 seconds to 3 seconds.
EDIT: I can't remember if this is working properly or was cut.

Lictor(T3):
Upkeep reduced from 7.65 to 5.1.
Renamed to Deathleaper.
I just don’t see the need but it’s such a minor thing. Meh.

Carnifex:
Upkeep reduced from 3.1867 to 2.55.
The ONE upkeep change that’s redacted. It’s just that so much underneath it is changing, so let’s just wait.
Build time reduced from 50 seconds to 45 seconds.
Cost reduced from 600/150 to 575/150.
Venom Cannon splash increased from 0 to 1.
EDIT: Came up in stream. Set to match the splash profile of lastanks for now.

Neurothrope:
Upkeep increased from 2.55 to 5.1.
Cost reduced from 400/100 to 400/75.
Default attack damage increased from 45 to 60.
Default attack range increased from 45 to 60.
Paroxysm movement speed reduction increased from 20% to 40%.

--------------

There were a couple of things that have proposals or are a bit in the air. Those are being listed even more raw here:

Problem: Curse of Tzeentch is not as good as it was.
Concerns: With no damage on retreat, a lot of its potency has been removed. However, there were times when CoT would completely delete high model squads before.
Solution Proposal:
Curse of Tzeentch can no longer detonate faster than once every 3 seconds.
Curse of Tzeentch no longer cancels once the targeted squad is in retreat.
Basically the ToN change onto CoT. Think this would be elegant as it would allow a pop on retreat where units are forced to clump but not instant domino kills like before.

Problem: 2 sent play? Cost?
Concerns: Sent punishes too hard for too little cost. IG comps are too versatile with GM/Sent combos, allowing the IG player to tech/get an earlier lead for less.
Solution: Make the Sentinel more expensive, and the Stomp a little harder to land.
Talked on stream, decided on a cost nerf. Think it'll work, we'll see.

Problem: AoA makes Apo impossible to attack.
Concerns:
Solution: ???
No idea on how to make AoA less trolly in teams.

---------------

If you guys and gals got something to say, feel free to say it as well. I might do 1 more stream with more pure live testing as most of the Cope's work is done here, but we'll see.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Torpid » Sun 28 Oct, 2018 11:22 pm

Don't think ogryns need buffs.

Am very confident the gigantic sentinel nerf and large GM nerf will combine to make IG pretty trash. Can't have both, that's way too big of a nerf. IG are extremely reliant on their t1 and not only that their early game and suddenly both aspects are going to be nerfed...

Don't think inquisitor needs nerfs, she's pretty bad compared to LC/LG and in addition to that with the Interrogator's buff there will be internal pressure to not get excrutiators all the time too.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Dark Riku » Sun 28 Oct, 2018 11:57 pm

Only going to talk about new things. Not repeating what I already said on the doc or other "official" channels.

With those nerfs, sentinels should be fine at 300.
Let's not overnerf the race please?

Ogryns are fine as they are atm. They don't need a buff.

The global drop pod didn't reinforce in the first place.
Pod was fine in the previous state.

Why is it so problematic for the FC to have an instant TP?
But it's fine on other unit wiping heroes?
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Atlas » Mon 29 Oct, 2018 3:13 am

Ogryns weren't a new thing but noted!
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Mon 29 Oct, 2018 3:45 am

Patch looks a lot better than it used to. Good job :)

Don't think the Whirlwind needs a speed nerf. It has no defensive ability and it doesn't do damage while needing to get relatively close to disrupt properly. Concentrated volley up close and spread out if far.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 29 Oct, 2018 12:51 pm

Atlas wrote:Ogryns weren't a new thing but noted!
My bad then. Didn't seem to remember :)
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Impregnable » Mon 29 Oct, 2018 1:48 pm

Atlas wrote:Auras/Abilities
The following abilities have been changed to affect only your own army or be affected by your own army.

Cloaking Shroud
Sacred Standard
Defend
Advanced Healing
Boss Pole
Stubbornness (LC only stacks on his own troops, not all troops around him)
Aura of Discipline
None Shall Fall

This list has been trimmed down to what is the real “problem” abilities in team games. It’s tempting to add Spiritual Rites and Breath of Nurgle to this list but this hits what really counts. We could reiterate and add more to the list in a later patch if this batch is successful.


Regarding this matter, how about we make them work only for the ally using the exact same faction. Faction combination is one of the major strategic factors to count in in team games. By making them work specifically for allies of the same faction only, we can make players to make a strategic decision when forming up a team. By having two or even 3 full team of the same faction, players will be able to gain full benefit from sharing those area of effect buffs, however by doing so they will suffer from counter factions and strategies. I think this can be one of the middle ground options between allowing all AOE abilities to work on allies and completely removing effect of all AOE abilities on allies.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby boss » Mon 29 Oct, 2018 3:06 pm

Still some of these changes shouldn't happen,
1.The rest of the auras can go and abilities no need to change them.
2.Whirlwind might as well remove it with those changes, its not even op and those who says it is should be shot.
3.Fire Prism leave it as it is just cos someone lost a setup team vs it don't mean it need nerfs dumb reason to even touch it.
4. Rangers don't need to lose any of there damage cost changes are fine.
5. Guardsman sergeant should stay at 1 pop, commissar should be 2 pop
6. Sentinel if you going to make it cost more should have some of its heath back I say 750.
7.Genestealers making them cheaper won't make them better I said this before they need a rework with Adrenal Rush
And lastly one thing im sad about is not making leaders cheaper to rebuy :(
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Thibix Magnus » Mon 29 Oct, 2018 5:20 pm

thanks a lot for the continued support! quick concerns:

Lowering damage per hit for the fire prism, even at constant dps, feels like an important nerf. The fire prism (in my not-pro experience) brings a lot as a finisher, landing the last hit on an escaping vehicle. As no one pointed out any issue about the FP performance vs vehicles, this might be very costly, and leads to consequences in all situations, only to deal with one very specific issue. Besides, even if it's not consensual, many seem to agree about eldar struggling a bit in T3.

About eldar abilities (just because I have less experience with others)

For the future, spiritual rites is very different from other "team" abilities as it is a one-off. You have to actively choose to help your team mate, maybe at the expense of your units later, instead of just forming a lazy blob of lasting abilities where you don't have to choose. It doesn't look like an abuse.

As for cloaking shroud, what is the exact problem? Assuming it is only the damage resistance, as other “lasting” abilities, maybe you should let the infiltration work for allies but keep the damage resistance for the player only? Otherwise it seems to just punish elaborated team play. I once barely hid a retreating friendly dreadnought just before it could be killed. Just like Warp (which wasn't made player only), it requires attention for others instead of just staking dakka, it feels weird to remove that, particularly if the purpose is precisely to avoid lazy blob play.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Broodwich » Mon 29 Oct, 2018 5:28 pm

Impregnable wrote:Regarding this matter, how about we make them work only for the ally using the exact same faction. Faction combination is one of the major strategic factors to count in in team games. By making them work specifically for allies of the same faction only, we can make players to make a strategic decision when forming up a team. By having two or even 3 full team of the same faction, players will be able to gain full benefit from sharing those area of effect buffs, however by doing so they will suffer from counter factions and strategies. I think this can be one of the middle ground options between allowing all AOE abilities to work on allies and completely removing effect of all AOE abilities on allies.


I kinda like this idea. Thematically it makes a lot more sense that say sm don't get a buff from a boss pole, or that nids don't get buffs from a space marine chapter standard. It also reduces a lot of the problem combos simply because the buffs are designed to work inside their own faction, not like say suppression immune ork shoota blob with health and damage buffs

I'm fine either way though, those are obnoxious group buffs. However, making it race specific is a nice middle ground to completely removing something that's been in the game for 7 years
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Antandron » Mon 29 Oct, 2018 6:23 pm

boss wrote:And lastly one thing im sad about is not making leaders cheaper to rebuy :(


Half price leader rebuys would be great. We almost had Atlas convinced!

However, there would need to be a change to leader costs if this were to happen because atm they are too cheap, probably because they have to be rebought for full cost.

e.g.
Ogryn model: 133/28
Bone'ead: 85/25

Purifier model: 150/22
Justicar: 90/25

Nob model: 125/25
Nob Nob: 100/25
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Zeno » Mon 29 Oct, 2018 7:40 pm

Why are lootas getting nerfed so hard?
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby oLev » Tue 30 Oct, 2018 1:59 am

No raveners in garrisons?
Can't even get in there first to deny them to the SUT you just jumped :(
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby evilmario5 » Tue 30 Oct, 2018 3:44 am

from my perspective from watching prt2 of the 2.9 patching stream that the changes for OM are all Solid changes and will make OM a ok pick for once for even those Non-OM players,

Separate topic for a sec (removing OM from the game does not improve the Mod just removes an option people would be able to pick, same could be said about any of the other factions in this mod)

Ok back to the correct topic 2.9 for OM will be a turning point for Om and how they can be played (Considering some people think OM as Blob A-move Death ball)
so very true when i started playing Elite mod back in 2.4 OM were so Dam OP

Great Work Modding team and Atlas
yes I play gk/om a bit no hate plz
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Impregnable » Tue 30 Oct, 2018 4:53 am

Atlas wrote:Vortex no longer deals damage to targets hit.
Vortex now stuns and knocks back units hit for 7 seconds upon detonation.
This is far less of a problem to buff due to it being exclusive to Aegis. Stun and knockback, like Stomp, is useful for getting a setup team out of cover and more vulnerable to attack. As is, there’s no jump option for OM so the wipe potential of this is fairly minimal. But it helps IST and Ranged Strikes a lot to not have units instantly backpedal or just go back into cover. The ability still deals friendly fire, so at best it’ll only be useful as an escape mechanism in melee fights and is very bad to try and use as close support for retreating Terms.


I don't think nemesis vortex ability should be able to move after being casted. No other disruption ability allow u to actually MOVE the point of impact after it is casted. Jump assaults, grenades, and any other means forces u to cast it on a location and once the point of impact is decided, it doesn't move. In comparison, vortex is the only disruption ability that can move after being casted and also is quite fast and last long too before it blows up opening far too less opportunities for counter play. At current state, it is a movable, and delayed impact sent stomp that can be casted in a range.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Atlas » Tue 30 Oct, 2018 6:20 pm

Ty for the comments, lots to cover for now.

Zeno wrote:Why are lootas getting nerfed so hard?

I don't really see this as a hard nerf. It'll cost you 15 to initiate the infiltrate. Unless you're switching it on/off a lot for some reason, eh. The threshold change is a standardization/futureproof change that won't have any impact for their current performance. Literally 0.

oLev wrote:No raveners in garrisons?
Can't even get in there first to deny them to the SUT you just jumped :(

The intention was to let them but I've been told there are animation/space issues with them in garrisons. Relic could talk more about this but that's the reason it's scratched for now.

evilmario5 wrote:from my perspective from watching prt2 of the 2.9 patching stream that the changes for OM are all Solid changes and will make OM a ok pick for once for even those Non-OM players,

....

Great Work Modding team and Atlas

Glad you like it! OM feedback is very hard to come by these days. I am personally a fan of the Krak-Grenade strikes that VindicareX/Toilailee has mentioned to me before, but we're already doing the VA stuff. I think we can afford to just do 1 change at a time on this.

Impregnable wrote:I don't think nemesis vortex ability should be able to move after being casted. No other disruption ability allow u to actually MOVE the point of impact after it is casted. Jump assaults, grenades, and any other means forces u to cast it on a location and once the point of impact is decided, it doesn't move. In comparison, vortex is the only disruption ability that can move after being casted and also is quite fast and last long too before it blows up opening far too less opportunities for counter play. At current state, it is a movable, and delayed impact sent stomp that can be casted in a range.

Well, Vortex also has a delay in its activation. Obviously, if you remove movement from it and keep the delay the ability is completely useless. Should I interpret this as you also wanting to remove the delay?
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Impregnable » Tue 30 Oct, 2018 7:05 pm

Atlas wrote:
Impregnable wrote:I don't think nemesis vortex ability should be able to move after being casted. No other disruption ability allow u to actually MOVE the point of impact after it is casted. Jump assaults, grenades, and any other means forces u to cast it on a location and once the point of impact is decided, it doesn't move. In comparison, vortex is the only disruption ability that can move after being casted and also is quite fast and last long too before it blows up opening far too less opportunities for counter play. At current state, it is a movable, and delayed impact sent stomp that can be casted in a range.

Well, Vortex also has a delay in its activation. Obviously, if you remove movement from it and keep the delay the ability is completely useless. Should I interpret this as you also wanting to remove the delay?


Indeed, the delay should be lessened but not completely removed because it is a stun and knockback at the same time. An instant cast of such ability at a range can be over the top especially considering Brother Captain is immune to suppression and Knockback which makes it nigh impossible to stop him from using that ability. Other T1 wide area stun or knock back abilities have drawbacks.

There are several penalties given to such abilities in T1.
1. Need to get right next to the target. ex) sent stomp, shotgun blast, Warboss stomp
2. Have only stun or knock back and not both. ex) Assault jumps, grenade barrage
3. Can be casted at long range but suffers a slight delay before impact ex) mortal shell
4. area of effect is very small and requires enemy units to be right on top of each other for knocking back on mass ex) ol reliable, kinetic shot

Would prefer the delay to be similar to that of arty spotter mortal shell. Even if vortex doesn't have damage and do not move after being casted. Instant click on demand long range castable sent stomp would be a problemetic thing to balance out.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Asmon » Tue 30 Oct, 2018 8:42 pm

I agree with others why can't we finally have cheaper leader reinforcement costs? I cry at the small 10 req reduction (which is meaningless for shees and certainly not needed for ogryns).

We've already talked about a workaround: the first time you buy your leader, you unlock a new upgrade that grants the same leader but for a lesser price. It's easy to implement (some can argue that it's inelegant but eh), is what we want for squads that tend to lose their leaders quite often.

Plus with this you can even increase the prices of leaders across the game, especially for squads (sluggas to name only one) who just never lose them (because they're op stat-wise btw).

And most important, we can remove the stupid leader die-last mechanism that is stupid on shootas, guardsmen and not even ok on tics.

Also we could add a received ranged damage reduction on adrenal rush for genes.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Toilailee » Tue 30 Oct, 2018 11:02 pm

Interrigator's armor doesn't need a buff. Or if it did, the way to buff it would be energy related so it wouldn't be so dependent on the book wargear for spamming, so a HP buff seems misplaced to me.

Stikks don't need a buff.

Acolyte nerf might be warranted but it could use a cost reduction after that.

Give strike squad justiciar a melee special by default regardless of upgrades :x

oLev wrote:No raveners in garrisons?
Can't even get in there first to deny them to the SUT you just jumped :(

Sure, you'll get garrison entry if you trade those devourers to bolt pistols.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby oLev » Wed 31 Oct, 2018 1:29 am

Sure, you'll get garrison entry if you trade those devourers to bolt pistols.

Ok then, garrison entry when they get Extended Muscle Coil that loses the devourers AND they get bolt pistols too.
Dual wield bolt pistols on their third pair of stubby arms.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Atlas » Wed 31 Oct, 2018 2:05 am

Do you guys think there is enough content to do a third patch making stream with iterations? I don't want to spend forever just chiseling changes but it sounds like there might be interest to do it.

But you guys are putting in a lot of feedback now that wasn't mentioned before.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Impregnable » Wed 31 Oct, 2018 2:11 am

Atlas wrote:Do you guys think there is enough content to do a third patch making stream with iterations? I don't want to spend forever just chiseling changes ut it sounds like there might be interest to do it.

But you guys are putting in a lot of feedback now that wasn't mentioned before.


By all means do not rush the patch and use all available channels for feedback so people can choose the channel they can or prefer to use to provide feedback.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby boss » Thu 01 Nov, 2018 9:19 pm

Best to use the forums for feedback not discords if anything to go by the way the patch notes look before where anything got put it then we might get somewhere just like before.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Atlas » Fri 02 Nov, 2018 4:06 am

boss wrote:Best to use the forums for feedback not discords if anything to go by the way the patch notes look before where anything got put it then we might get somewhere just like before.


Well most of the revisions actually did come from discord/stream actually.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Telos » Fri 02 Nov, 2018 5:25 am

Can I ask the reasoning for putting the healing ability on the Zoanthrope? It seems like it's meant to address the fex inability to heal in the field, but that would make them essential in every nid comp although there are situations where using them isn't ideal. Esp if your opponent knows there will be zoans at some point in the MU.

Couldn't some kind of healing ability be given to capillary towers that target just the carnifex (similar to warlock webway heal)? Or maybe give the fex an ability where it can eat a friendly guant and rapidly heal a certain amount? If this were possible then it would put nids in line with other races that require the initial T1 unit for infield repair. And anyways hormagaunts and capillary towers appear in every nid MU whereas zoans don't necessarily...

If that's unfeasible or impossible then I understand, I just dislike forcing certain build paths like this seems it would do..
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Nurland » Fri 02 Nov, 2018 7:42 am

If you aren't forced to get Zoans now, why would you be when they get changed? It is not like everything else got nerfed making other units less effective.

It feels more like a reward for keeping your zoan alive to T3.

Capillary tower heals sounds incredibly broken.

The consume style heal sounds a more viable but hard to balance.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby boss » Fri 02 Nov, 2018 9:33 am

Atlas wrote:
boss wrote:Best to use the forums for feedback not discords if anything to go by the way the patch notes look before where anything got put it then we might get somewhere just like before.


Well most of the revisions actually did come from discord/stream actually.



Hiding changes in discords is dumb no wonder there not much feedback, cos discords are places to shittalk not talk about next patchs its why we had the forums for years and this worked before even if it just turns into bashing each other over changes least then you get your feedback.
Awhole bunch of changers should never even made it in the change log.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby boss » Fri 02 Nov, 2018 9:55 am

Telos wrote:Can I ask the reasoning for putting the healing ability on the Zoanthrope? It seems like it's meant to address the fex inability to heal in the field, but that would make them essential in every nid comp although there are situations where using them isn't ideal. Esp if your opponent knows there will be zoans at some point in the MU.

Couldn't some kind of healing ability be given to capillary towers that target just the carnifex (similar to warlock webway heal)? Or maybe give the fex an ability where it can eat a friendly guant and rapidly heal a certain amount? If this were possible then it would put nids in line with other races that require the initial T1 unit for infield repair. And anyways hormagaunts and capillary towers appear in every nid MU whereas zoans don't necessarily...

If that's unfeasible or impossible then I understand, I just dislike forcing certain build paths like this seems it would do..


Zoans are already needed in each matchup and always have been tyranids t2 very basic to understand
Venom brood to buff termagunts and ravs,also give more synapse.
Tyrant Guard to tank and line break.
Genestealers to be your elite melee unit would be nice if they were that again :(
Zoans to be your aoe damage at long range, also only range damage that's not piercing other than bs fexs along with more synapse and heal synapse very important for t3 for your fexs unless you want to be walking for 5 mins just to heal oh and also there also your best av you got till venom fexs come out so yea zoan are always needed and always will be.
Its very sad tyranids don't get more units in t2.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Telos » Fri 02 Nov, 2018 10:16 am

boss wrote:Zoans are already needed in each matchup and always have been tyranids t2 very basic to understand
Venom brood to buff termagunts and ravs,also give more synapse.
Tyrant Guard to tank and line break.
Genestealers to be your elite melee unit would be nice if they were that again :(
Zoans to be your aoe damage at long range, also only range damage that's not piercing other than bs fexs along with more synapse and heal synapse very important for t3 for your fexs unless you want to be walking for 5 mins just to heal oh and also there also your best av you got till venom fexs come out so yea zoan are always needed and always will be.
Its very sad tyranids don't get more units in t2.


This doesn't seem very true in practice. It could be true that they have a role in every MU but it seems pretty situational to see them in high level play, it's hardly every game anyway. On the otherhand, all the repair units of other races appear in every game. In any case I still dislike them being pinned into such an essential role on such a fragile single unit when I'd rather just get out a second (or third) fex.

I'm just unclear if the reasoning for having it on the zoan is practical (from the nature of the mod) or thematic (it makes "sense" that it's on the zoan).
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Oddnerd » Sun 04 Nov, 2018 5:00 am

I'm not sure how I feel about making all of these abilities no longer affect allied races. Everyone knows that 3v3 is a balance shitshow, but one of the fun things that separates 3v3 from 1v1 is finding ways to make abilities and globals from 1 race synergize with another, and a lot of these changes seem to remove this aspect from the game. I understand that some abilities should never be used on other races for balance reasons (ie - inspire determination on sluggas or hormagaunts), but some of these seem overly harsh. On some maps, your typical 3v3 sometimes feels like 3 concurrent 1v1s, these changes might just make that even worse by making interfaction synergy less of a deciding factor.

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