2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Cyris
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2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Cyris » Mon 13 Aug, 2018 6:18 pm

2.9 - Beta 1
Welcome to the 2.9 beta changelog. I’m Cyris, the new balance lead on the ELITE project. While the techpriests are putting together a early build with this first beta, I wanted to share the working changelog, and open comments up.

I have enjoyed ELITE immensely in the last 5 years, and want to keep it as healthy and fun as possible. Please help me by providing as much constructive feedback as you can. This log will absolutely be changing before launch, but it represents the kind of direction I want to go in.

Enjoy!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gAW ... sp=sharing
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Nurland » Mon 13 Aug, 2018 7:16 pm

Ok. Some critique from me (note that if I don't mention something, I am most likely either approving of it or fine with it):

- I very much dislike the route of removing teamplay from teamgames. Using guide and heals etc. on allies is smart play that should be rewarded, not banned.

SM:
- I hope FC doesn't do KB on landing with his new fancy jump pack. That would be broken.
- WW nerf might have gone a bit too far but we'll see I suppose.
- Melee TM change ok.
- AoA buff is a bit questionable but remains to be seen.
- Drop pod change doesn't make sense. The 50req increase makes pretty much no difference since the red cost is so low. 150 red / 300 req would be more reasonable. The requisition is not the limiting factor with the Tac drop pod.

Chaos:
- Visage needed 0 buffs and not sure if the Baseball bat for CL needed a buff either.
- IoT change seems a bold one. Haven't made my mind on this one yet.

Eldar:
- MWB didn't need the damage nerf. It is a 35 power T1 wargear.
- Fire Prism nerf totally unnecessary
- War Spider squad nerf totally uncalled for.

IG:
- Inq Crossbow didn't really need the buff
- Leman buff was uncalled for. It is already just an amazing tank. Yes it does less damage than a Looted tank but one of them has like 650hp and the other 1200hp.
- What is the reasoning behind the Ogryn change? It seems rather unintuitive.

Not going to comment on the OM changes. I don't really play them so I have very little to say about it.

Orkz:
- Loota nerf might be a bit much but they are kinda dominating the Ork meta atm. I don't mind the infil nerf but the long range damage nerf was not needed imho.

Nids:
- Heavy melee LA? Not liking this concept the least bit.
- Synapse backlash change maybe ok. Hope it still pays off enough.
- Upkeep changes are probably ok.
- Thorax Swarm AG Warriors sound a bit scary but less hp so hard to call it without seeing.
- If you implement inferno damage Ravs, I will most likely just straight up uninstall the game. I am sorry but this sounds like a horrible, horrible change that will straight up break the game.
- Neurothrope buffs seem a bit much.
- Zoan symbiosis with the Fex buffs might also be too much.
- RA Corrosive Devourer buff seems also something that wasn't needed.

I know this isn't the most constructive feedback but I can elaborate if you don't see why I do not agree with some of the changes. If someone from the balance team is interested in my more in depth opinions, they can ask ealboration here or pm me.
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Asmon » Mon 13 Aug, 2018 7:23 pm

We need a short video of you saying "Welcome to the 2.9 beta changelog. I’m Cyris, the new balance lead on the ELITE project." in a very deep voice. Thanks.
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Psycho » Mon 13 Aug, 2018 7:29 pm

Can someone tell whatever faggot has the pink color to not highlight the entire page
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 13 Aug, 2018 7:37 pm

-If the jumppack doesn t give KB, then the tele could stay anyway. What s the difference.
- WW nerf is too much; either the ability goes or the price goes up, but both???
- The buff on Axe is missing the point for me tbh; TM´s problem is his health, so his armors should be buffed; Biconics should be +300 health, +1 speed and +25 % melee dmg.
The axe could use an additional effect, maybe up the TM´s repair to 20 ?
- Armor of the APothecarion will still not make the Apo good enough in combat while also going against the theme of the armor as ultimate support gear.
If the Apo should be made better in melee, then pls use stims for it and not AoA.



-Love IoT buff. Eager to try it out.
- I still see AC´s critical, exspecially the CSM-squad one.

Inferno raveners is rather....meh.
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Kvn » Mon 13 Aug, 2018 8:02 pm

Those are some pretty major nerfs to Eldar, I have to say.

- Wasn't the Eldritch Storm literally just buffed up from 100 damage to its current state because putting it at 100 was too much of a nerf? Why instantly revert that?

- Why change the Aspect of the Reaper? Who would buy it now? As I recall, the original point of changing Reapers from plasma to inferno damage was because plasma was too limited and constrained them into too small a niche. They're already rarely used, so cutting 10% of their damage and some speed while offering an arguably worse damage type as an alternative probably isn't going to help that.

- Feel like nerfing Rangers yet again is beating a dead horse at this point, but whatever.

- Why the nerf to Prisms and Warp Spiders? What is the reasoning here?

- Giving the FC disruption with the new jump pack... seems like a really, really, bad idea.

- So does giving LA's Corrosive Claws heavy melee.

Maybe it's just me, but a lot of these changes feel random and questionable. There are some pretty major buffs to certain units that don't seem like they need them, and nerfs that aren't obvious as to why they're being given that treatment.
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Mon 13 Aug, 2018 8:24 pm

I strongly suggest that you revisit many of your proposed changes, Cyris. While this may sound dismissive it can't be avoided: you seem to not be up to date with the current meta due to your absence or you wouldn't be making many of the changes.

I have made many comments on your document and hope to hear from you as many of the changes are so drastic, they should be considered game-breaking (Inferno Ravs under Synapse, Vindicare T1, etc.).
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Broodwich » Mon 13 Aug, 2018 8:49 pm

This massive changelog, so soon after the latest patch, without ANY notes on why changes were made, is a pretty bad intro to your new job.

I'll just echo the others, plenty of big changes here that seem over the top or the wrong direction. Without any explanation *why* changes are made in the first place, it is hard to provide anything constructive in return.

Also, splitting commenting between two places makes it harder for others to track the conversation, and live editing furthers that. So far, i'm not impressed
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Rostam » Mon 13 Aug, 2018 9:11 pm

no offense to cyris, he is a great guy and all, i like him.
but he doesnt play the game much and many of his ideas are debatable
can we vote on changing the headbalance mb? Nurland,Freeman,Boss,Adila play the game quiet often and they have a very good knowledge of it mb appointing one or a group of this handsome gentlemen would be a nice turn around
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Black Relic » Mon 13 Aug, 2018 9:14 pm

Ok I am going start here and not comment too much on the balance thing since it is already turning into a cluster beep.

Chaos Space Marines

Daemonic Visage cost reduced from 125/35 to 125/30. I agree with Nurland. When he hit something he debuff's entire armies by 25%. That include vehicles making even melee walkers hit like a sissy. IMO if you want it buffed I think a better thing to do is make it an AoE debuff that is always on. But that could be OP even with the stats changed to "balance" the change. But I am willing to bet the main reason for the buff is for two reasons.

1: Not used as much
2: The wargear needs a requirement to work. And kiting the CL is a way to limit the duration of the debuff. But you are kiting the CL that needs to be focused.

Blood Maul buff imo is good. Could be buffed in a different way though. The Maul is to make him anti-melee but the Power claws has a similar ability that has anti-melee capabilities plus does a better damage type. Allows the maul to have the CL automatically before special attack regardless of melee skill say 10%. Boom now he is scary to attack in melee at all times even after he uses his ability.


Curse of Tzeentch increases incoming damage by 20% for 15s.  Effect is not cancelled in retreat.
Curse of Tzeentch no longer deals friendly fire.
Curse of Tzeentch damage type changed from piercing to plasma.


Ummmm. What? This wargear instantly became OP with this change. One of the reasons it was Friendly fire was to allow you not not use it will-nilly. This will become TOO OP. Especially since it will now do plasma damage making it to 50% more to HI targets. This is the worst change here. I would change it to allow the knockback to affect allies but not the damage (which is what I hope you meant).

This is a better change imo. CoT can be casted on you own units as wall radically changing the way the ability would be used and offer a vast new ways to use the Sorc with CoT. CoT can do DoT, say 1% HP in piercing damage on the affected unit (I mean they are being surrounded by warp energy.) That does DoT over 15 seconds (which is a LONG time). Could be healed though but who cares is damage that scales when your enemy levels up. Idk kinda sounds cool.


Eldar


Eldritch Storm damage on first 9 bolts reduced from 150 to 100.

Yea I am ok with that. Imo if any buffs needed to happen to the nuke its the bolt damage after the initial 9.


Warlock:
Destructor damage reduced from 25 psychic per blast to 20 psychic per blast. (50 to 40)
Merciless Witchblade damage per hit reduced from 130 to 120.
Cloaking Shroud Warlock ranged damage reduction reduced from 50% to 25%.
Cloak of Shadows cost reduced from 100/30 to 100/25


Well. I hate warlock but wow. Destructor does no need any more nerfs in damage. Increase the delay for a small amount between the destructor so it is slightly easier to dodge and all is well.

MWB can go to 125 and not 120. 120 is actually a teribad number. I lowered it to 120 in my mod at one point an felt like the warlock was doing no damage and having almost no impact for the cost. Go to 125 and start from there.

Cloak Shroud is an interesting ability as it can even affect the Avatar. I don't have much comment on this. I do think that 30% is enough and 25% might be too much of a nerf but we shall see.

Howling Banshees:
Upkeep cost increased from 2.16 to 2.55.
Exarch cost reduced from 90/20 to 80/20.


Well there goes double banshee builds. Shees imo didn't needs a change other that lowering the retreat killing again by a bit like 5%. The exarch does no need to be a leader which would put her at the back of the formation. (I can still make the exarch be the only one carrying those unique weapons).

That being said I also think the exarch should leap into combat as apposed to the others. Would actually make her alone difficult to kill with both of these changes under most circumstances. Since exarch always dying made double shees builds difficult to pull off due to the leaders dying ALL the time.

Wraithguard:
Wraithcannon courage damage increased from 30 to 40.
Spiritseer Destructor range increased from 38 to 42.
Spiritseer upkeep increased from 1.5 to 2.55.
Squad no longer takes 100 spore damage upon the death of a nearby Wraithsight user. Other effects remain


I like the spirit seer changes

Rip Imperial Guard even more so than they are now. Strange as it sounds though I actually like their fire on the move thing. But I would change how they work.

So first off the courage damage would be 25 from 30.

WraithGuard without the SS would fire on the move at 50%, the range would be reduced by 10 and would reload 50% slow on the move.

With the seer the range would be reduced by only 5, accuracy would stay at 50%, and they would reload 25% slower on the move.

Warp Spider Squad:

There changes are bad. UNLESS you allow me to have warp spiders automatically teleport away from a squad that intends to tie them up. Then every nerf is justified. If not. They need no nerfs except haywire duration that could be lowered by 1.

Ranger:

Pathfinder damage decrease to 20% and that's it. The other nerfs are not necessary.

Dark Reaper Squad:

I think we might be going too far on the aspect thing.

Plasma damage on them will require them to go to t3 if they retain pinning shot.

Fire Prism:

Good. I agree on this. Why? Caz.



Ill do the other races later.

I think we need to give Cyris a shot rather than dismissing him immediately. That is rather rude.
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Antandron » Mon 13 Aug, 2018 9:41 pm

All this keyboard bashing is unnecessary considering that this is only a beta. Don't panic.

I would suggest that before the alpha, send the beta patch to a group of players to grind out playtested games vs each other. Two high-skill players should be able to play any matchup and have a close game. Any OP stuff should be discovered quickly and purged before official patch release.
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Mon 13 Aug, 2018 9:59 pm

Antandron wrote:All this keyboard bashing is unnecessary considering that this is only a beta. Don't panic.

I would suggest that before the alpha, send the beta patch to a group of players to grind out playtested games vs each other. Two high-skill players should be able to play any matchup and have a close game. Any OP stuff should be discovered quickly and purged before official patch release.


This was actually decided on multiple times that changes were going to be tested and what not. That is not what happened every time. It would only be keyboard bashing if it didn't have any substance. Criticism is not only ok but also necessary and should be encouraged.
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Antandron » Mon 13 Aug, 2018 10:37 pm

Well, some of the comments attached to the beta document are definitely zero substance. Basically "No!" "Wrong!" "Bad!" but with worse spelling and punctuation. Then in Twitch chat a well-known player says something along the lines of "You do not know what you are doing." with no actual argument at all. Then there is the hysteria about upkeep changes which either have no effect or at most change a factions upkeep by 5 req a minute. Where is the outrage about Rangers paying 15 req a minute when Hormagaunts pay 31 req a minute? *crickets* The balance team can't score a win on the Eldritch Storm issue either because if the value is 100dmg per bolt people moan, and if it is 150dmg per bolt, other people moan.
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Ace of Swords » Mon 13 Aug, 2018 10:48 pm

Antandron wrote:Well, some of the comments attached to the beta document are definitely zero substance. Basically "No!" "Wrong!" "Bad!" but with worse spelling and punctuation. Then in Twitch chat a well-known player says something along the lines of "You do not know what you are doing." with no actual argument at all. Then there is the hysteria about upkeep changes which either have no effect or at most change a factions upkeep by 5 req a minute. Where is the outrage about Rangers paying 15 req a minute when Hormagaunts pay 31 req a minute? *crickets* The balance team can't score a win on the Eldritch Storm issue either because if the value is 100dmg per bolt people moan, and if it is 150dmg per bolt, other people moan.



This is a game 2 can play my dear, first the balance "lead" should explain why the fuck is he even making these changes in the first places and no, changing things that have been fine for a long ass time just because some people moan or "to shake up the meta" isn't a valid argument and we're all quite fucking tired of people destroying the balance just because.
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Forestradio » Mon 13 Aug, 2018 10:54 pm

CL buffs and warp spider squad nerfs? What?

edit: lol at KN stikk increase
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Yabbaman » Tue 14 Aug, 2018 3:16 am

what do you need a balance patch for?
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Tue 14 Aug, 2018 3:23 am

You're nerfing Whirlwind to the point that you might as well remove it from the game. It was already worse than buying any other T2 unit and only had its use in a niche for team games where multiple opponents are blobbing together.

I also don't understand why Vindi is in T1 now and storms got their grenade replaced with Rapid Fire. Storms don't need more damage; they need something to help stop melee from getting in.
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 14 Aug, 2018 4:25 am

The Curse of Tzeentch change is interesting. It seems more balanced, but I am going to miss making IG infantry blobbers squeal like a stuck pig with dank flames + CoT combo...

Edit - Maybe I am reading this incorrectly... Does this mean CoT no longer makes units explode or is the incoming damage increase in addition to the pre-existing effects? If that is the case then I am going to abuse the shit out of it now. I guess the change to plasma damage reduces it's effectiveness against light infantry, but increased damage taken means you can make more models pop with some fire support, or a global that does aoe damage.
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Black Relic » Tue 14 Aug, 2018 5:00 am

It is rather vague but i think it will also increase incoming damage from all sources.

Plus the plasma damage think is not needed imo. It already does damage based on the unit HP percentage i believe. And if i does not. It should. Better scaling than plasma damage and i think it is possible to make that damage scale based on the sorc level. But that my be pushing boundaries.
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Antandron » Tue 14 Aug, 2018 8:05 am

Ace of Swords wrote:
Antandron wrote:Well, some of the comments attached to the beta document are definitely zero substance. Basically "No!" "Wrong!" "Bad!" but with worse spelling and punctuation. Then in Twitch chat a well-known player says something along the lines of "You do not know what you are doing." with no actual argument at all. Then there is the hysteria about upkeep changes which either have no effect or at most change a factions upkeep by 5 req a minute. Where is the outrage about Rangers paying 15 req a minute when Hormagaunts pay 31 req a minute? *crickets* The balance team can't score a win on the Eldritch Storm issue either because if the value is 100dmg per bolt people moan, and if it is 150dmg per bolt, other people moan.



This is a game 2 can play my dear, first the balance "lead" should explain why the fuck is he even making these changes in the first places and no, changing things that have been fine for a long ass time just because some people moan or "to shake up the meta" isn't a valid argument and we're all quite fucking tired of people destroying the balance just because.


This is a beta patch, which usually means "Not finished. Open to feedback.". If anything is as horribly unbalanced as some claim (my money is on T1 Vindicare) then after a few playtested games using the beta it should be obvious and adjustments made before the alpha patch. Then, hopefully, only the slightly unbalanced stuff remains which while annoying, isn't game-breaking.

Up to this point in 2.9 development, there has been a Discord channel with a specific "balance discussion" channel in which Cyris and Atlas have thrown ideas out and received feedback on them. Players who want their opinions to be considered but who haven't bothered to register on the Discord channel should probably go pound sand. Did they expect the balance team to visit them personally and listen to their opinions attentively? I'm sure they have other stuff to do.

My 2 cents:
Is FC Teleport really a problem? If it is why not reduce the range or something like that? I know this is the Rule of Cool but Teleporting FC awesome and the jump pack is lame in comparison.
WW needs to be better in 1v1s and worse in 3v3s. I can't see how the current changes achieve this.
Leman Russ getting even better? *cries* If the dmg goes up then something has to go down to compensate.
Fire Prism divides opinion at the moment. Many think it is too fragile, other people say "learn to micro". Idk. 500hp feels like almost nothing sometimes. One rear armour hit and BOOM.
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 14 Aug, 2018 9:10 am

Cyris wrote:Auras and bonuses:
A number of abilities and wargears are being restricted to only affecting your own troops, and not that of your teams armies, while others are being called out as shared.
Teamgames are supposed to reward teamplay. That is why they are teamgames.
Changing them now will also confuse the fuck out of everyone.

Cyris wrote:Curse of Tzeentch
Don't break Curse of Tzeentch.

Cyris wrote:Consume cooldown increased from 20 to 30
That's a big nerf to the sorcerer that is not needed.

Cyris wrote:Daemonic Shield energy cost increased from 45 to 50.
Daemonic Shield damage reduction increased from 35% to 40%.
Leave as is. The wargear is fine.

Cyris wrote:Warlock:
Destructor damage reduced from 25 psychic per blast to 20 psychic per blast. (50 to 40)
Merciless Witchblade damage per hit reduced from 130 to 120.
Cloaking Shroud Warlock ranged damage reduction reduced from 50% to 25%.
Cloak of Shadows cost reduced from 100/30 to 100/25.
What even are these changes? °_O
Leave all of those alone. They are fine.
Destructor can be dodged and still often enough hits terein.
The Bitchblade cost a ton to field.
Cloaking gets countered by detection.

Cyris wrote:Warp Spider Exarch:
Anti-Gravity Grenade energy cost reduced from 60 to 50.
Let's not. It's a gamebreaking ability. Why should it suddenly cost less energy?

Cyris wrote:Howling Banshees:
Upkeep cost increased from 2.16 to 2.55.
Stop fucking around with upkeep. It's fine! And revert CSM upkeep.

Cyris wrote:Wraithguard:
Wraithcannon courage damage increased from 30 to 40.
They already suppress crazy fast. Don't buff it to the levels that dodging it is impossible.

Cyris wrote:Wraithguard:
Spiritseer Destructor range increased from 38 to 42.
What does this even mean? Are you gibing wraithguard Destructor too? °_0

Cyris wrote:Wraithguard:
Spiritseer upkeep increased from 1.5 to 2.55.
Stop fucking with upkeep.

Cyris wrote:Warp Spider Squad:
Squad and Exarch upkeep increased from 2.39 to 2.55.
Aspect of Warp Spider cost increased from 50/20 to 50/25.
Haywire Grenade cooldown increased from 40 to 48 seconds.
Why? °_0 Non of the changes are needed.

Cyris wrote:Ranger:
Cost increased from 210/20 to 210/25.
Pathfinder Gear cost reduced from 75/20 to 75/15.
Pathfinder Gear damage increase changed from +25% damage to +10 damage. (75 to 70)

Rangers are somewhat fine atm.
Give it more time to see what previous changes did.

Cyris wrote:Dark Reaper Squad:
Aspect of Reaper no longer passively increases the squad’s speed by .5 or increase the squad’s damage by 10%.
Aspect of Reaper now changes the damage type of Reaper Launchers from inferno_pvp to plasma_pvp.
Aspect of Reaper cost increase from 65/25 to 75/25.
Pretty much what Boss said in the doc: "Leave them the way they are before they had plasma and makes them worthless in alot of match ups and painful to broken in sm"

Cyris wrote:Fire Prism:
Focused Beam damage type changed from plasma_cannon_pvp to explosive_pvp.
Just no. For all the reasons givien in the doc.

Cyris wrote:Ogryns:
Cost reduced from 425/90 to 400/85.
Reinforce cost increased from 61/13 to 66/14.
Bone 'ead Cost reduced from 100/25 to 85/25.
Leave as is. They are fine. You can buff the bone 'ead's cost if you really want to change stuff just for the sake of change.

Cyris wrote:Stormtrooper Squad:
Upkeep increased from 2.05 to 2.55.
Stop fucking with upkeep.

At this point I'm getting tired of all these arbitrary and weird changes.

Cyris wrote:Spotters:
Flare Shell upgrade moved from T2 to T1.
Flare Shell cost reduced from 75/10 to 50/10.
Just no.

Cyris wrote:Chimera:
Cost increased from 300/60 to 300/70.
Leave Chimera alone.

Cyris wrote:Leman Russ Battle Tank:
Default cannon damage per hit increased from 120 to 150.
Hull Lascannon damage reduced from 65 to 60.
Hull Lascannon cooldown reduced from 6 to 4. (8s -> 6s fire time)
Who even thinks the Leman needs a buff?! Don't buff the leman!

Cyris wrote:Ordo Malleus
Staying out of this burning house.
Except for this bit:
Vindicare Assassin:
Unit moved from T2 to T1.
You serious?

Cyris wrote:Kommando Nob:
Stikkbombz cost increased from 130/20 to 130/25.
This wargear is not overperforming. Leave it alone.

Cyris wrote:Stikkbommas:
Stunbomb and Stikkbomb travel speed increased by 20%.
Melee skill increased from 75 to 80.
I wouldn't fuck with them. They are fine. Making them throw faster only makes them undogeable. They can already get this effect with their stun. Don't buff their MS again. They are an artillery unit. Melee should counter them! They shouldn't counter melee!

Cyris wrote:Drop Pod cost changed from 300/0/100 to 350/0/75.
Drop Pod breaks up on impact (still deals damage / knockback) and no longer reinforces.
Leave the pod alone. It's fine.

Cyris wrote:Force Commander:
Teleport wargear replaced with Jump Pack wargear that grants the Leap ability.
Jump Pack cost set to 100/30. Available in T2.
Don't change it. Reasons already given by others.

Cyris wrote:Techmarine:
Bionics melee damage bonus increased from 15% to 25%.
Axe of the Mechanicum now grants +100 hp in addition to its other effects.
Axe of the Mechanicum cost increased from 100/20 to 100/25.
Plasma Gun cost increased from 120/30 to 120/35.
Bionics +20% should be enough. Little HP on the axe would be nice. Axe is already very niche. Doesn't need an increase in cost. Plasma gun cost is also fine as is.

Cyris wrote:Apothecary:
Customized Storm Bolter auto-fire damage reduced from 35 to 17.5. (½)
Armor of the Apothecarion speed bonus condition changed from out of combat to in combat.
I don't even °_O
Change the ability to only target 1 entity. Same should happen with the WB. Don't change the default dps!
Don't change the AoA. Giving him extra speed IN COMBAT will make him be able to dodge while his healing effect is on. While he's supposed to be immobile while using it!

Cyris wrote:Sternguard Veteran Squad:
Vengeance Rounds damage modifier vs vehicles reduced from .5 to .45.
Is anyone really worried about Sterns AV?

Cyris wrote:Whirlwind:
Cost increased from 360/50 to 300/70.
Turret rotation rate increased from 40 to 48.
Squad cap reduced from 2 per player to 1 per player.
Unit no longer has the Hunter Seeker ability.
Speed reduced from 6 to 5.
Reload duration increased from 10 to 12.
What even is this? °_O Just no to all of these.

Cyris wrote:Land Raider Redeemer:
Reinforcement Aura radius reduced from 40 to 30.
Why?! Just no.

Tyranids are apparently not done, So will update those later and only reply in the doc.
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Ace of Swords
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Ace of Swords » Tue 14 Aug, 2018 1:05 pm

Antandron wrote:
Ace of Swords wrote:
Antandron wrote:Well, some of the comments attached to the beta document are definitely zero substance. Basically "No!" "Wrong!" "Bad!" but with worse spelling and punctuation. Then in Twitch chat a well-known player says something along the lines of "You do not know what you are doing." with no actual argument at all. Then there is the hysteria about upkeep changes which either have no effect or at most change a factions upkeep by 5 req a minute. Where is the outrage about Rangers paying 15 req a minute when Hormagaunts pay 31 req a minute? *crickets* The balance team can't score a win on the Eldritch Storm issue either because if the value is 100dmg per bolt people moan, and if it is 150dmg per bolt, other people moan.



This is a game 2 can play my dear, first the balance "lead" should explain why the fuck is he even making these changes in the first places and no, changing things that have been fine for a long ass time just because some people moan or "to shake up the meta" isn't a valid argument and we're all quite fucking tired of people destroying the balance just because.


This is a beta patch, which usually means "Not finished. Open to feedback.". If anything is as horribly unbalanced as some claim (my money is on T1 Vindicare) then after a few playtested games using the beta it should be obvious and adjustments made before the alpha patch. Then, hopefully, only the slightly unbalanced stuff remains which while annoying, isn't game-breaking.

Up to this point in 2.9 development, there has been a Discord channel with a specific "balance discussion" channel in which Cyris and Atlas have thrown ideas out and received feedback on them. Players who want their opinions to be considered but who haven't bothered to register on the Discord channel should probably go pound sand. Did they expect the balance team to visit them personally and listen to their opinions attentively? I'm sure they have other stuff to do.



Throwing random ideas is no basis for balance there has to be VALID REASON to CHANGE SOMETHING and beta patches are meaningless when everyone just do what they want with it because there's not actual real basis on why and what changes are being made, this has been seen before as noobus point out and.
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Asmon » Tue 14 Aug, 2018 7:25 pm

Dark Riku wrote:What even are these changes? °_O
Leave all of those alone. They are fine.
Destructor can be dodged and still often enough hits terein.
The Bitchblade cost a ton to field.
Cloaking gets countered by detection.


Not entirely countered by detection as the range resistance remains, especially if you use it for WL alone. The nerf to 25% is too much though.

Otherwise good points in the rest of your post.
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby SarDauk » Tue 14 Aug, 2018 7:38 pm

I don't understand half of the changes, why Neurothrope should be buffed as much ? why warp spiders should be nerfed ? why messing up with upkeep (not a good way of balance cuz hard to predict the impacts) ? Why nerfing Eldars and buffing leman russ ???? WTF with the WW ?

So plz Cyris, explain each of your changes cuz I can't remember people asking for these.
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby SarDauk » Tue 14 Aug, 2018 7:41 pm

Also why renaming the T3 lictor deathleaper ? this is just illogical and useless, just as renaming FC scout sergent
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby PhatE » Wed 15 Aug, 2018 3:16 pm

The use ya choppas updates are the BitCoin of patch notes
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Cyris » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 1:09 am

PhatE wrote:The use ya choppas updates are the BitCoin of patch notes


Thankyou for the best comment of the whole change log.
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Crewfinity » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 3:00 pm

General thoughts on upkeep changes:

This is one of the least intuitive, visible, and understood mechanics in the game. I'm all for consistency and I applaud your quest to get most units on standard upkeep, but you should keep in mind that if every unit has standard upkeep, population values matter a lot more in determining how valuable squads/models are.

Previously, if a squad was more efficient than they should be relative to their population (ex a unit has 8 pop but was performing at ~10 pop level) then we could just nerf their upkeep so that they were taxed at a fair rate. population values don't change as easily as upkeep does, so now if an 8 pop unit is performing at a 10 pop level, your only option is to reduce their performance.

If you are determined to standardize upkeep then keep at it, but most of the units that have non-standard upkeep have those values for a reason - so you should keep that in mind when adjusting them back.

Some mathhammer for the nerds - nid upkeep values before/after changes

2.8 Nid upkeep/pop values:
Lictor: 7.65 upkeep/pop
Horma/Terma: 3.825 upkeep/pop
Carnifex: 3.1867 upkeep/pop
Raveners: 3.1875 upkeep/pop
Swarmlord: 2.7314 upkeep/pop
Warrior/Venom/Zoanthrope/Neurothrope/Tyrant Guard/Genestealers: 2.55 upkeep/pop

Example T1 compositions/upkeep:
3x Horma + Warrior = 39 pop | 9 pop @ 3.825 | total upkeep tax = 34.425
Horma + 2x Terma + Ravs + Warrior = 51 pop | 21 pop @ 3.825 | total upkeep tax = 80.325

Example T2 compositions/upkeep:
2x Horma + 2x Terma + Venom + Warrior = 62 pop | 32 pop @ 3.825 | total upkeep tax = 122.4
Horma + 2x Terma + Venom + Ravs + Zoanthrope = 61 pop | 24 pop @ 3.825 + 7 pop @ 3.1875 | total upkeep tax = 114.1125
Horma + 2x Terma + Venom + Warrior + Genestealers = 66 pop | 24 pop @ 3.825 + 12 pop @ 2.55 | total upkeep tax = 122.4

Example T3 compositions/upkeep:
Horma + 2x Terma + Venom + Warrior + 2x Carnifex = 90 pop | 24 pop @ 3.825 + 36 pop @ 3.1867 | total upkeep tax = 206.5212
Horma + Terma + Venom + Warrior + Ravs + Neurothrope + Swarmlord + Lictor = 94 pop | 5 pop @ 7.65 + 16 pop @ 3.825 + 12 pop @ 3.1875 + 21 pop @ 2.7314 + 10 pop @ 2.55 | total upkeep tax = 220.56



2.9 proposed Nid upkeep/pop values:
Lictor/Neurothrope: 5.1 upkeep/pop
Warrior/Venom/Zoanthrope: 3.825 upkeep/pop
Raveners: 3.1875 upkeep/pop
Swarmlord: 2.7314 upkeep/pop
Horma/Terma/Zoanthrope/Neurothrope/Tyrant Guard/Genestealers/Carnifex: 2.55 upkeep/pop

Example T1 compositions/upkeep:
3x Horma + Warrior = 39 pop | 9 pop @ 3.825 | total upkeep tax = 34.425 (no change from 2.8)
Horma + 2x Terma + Ravs + Warrior = 51 pop | 15 pop @ 3.825 + 6 pop @ 3.1875 | total upkeep tax = 76.5 (3.825 decrease from 2.8)

Example T2 compositions/upkeep:
2x Horma + 2x Terma + Venom + Warrior = 62 pop | 30 pop @ 3.825 + 2 pop @ 2.55 | total upkeep tax = 119.85 (2.55 decrease from 2.8)
Horma + 2x Terma + Venom + Ravs + Zoanthrope = 61 pop | 25 pop @ 3.825 + 6 pop @ 3.1875 | total upkeep tax = 114.75 (.6375 increase from 2.8)
Horma + 2x Terma + Venom + Warriors + Genestealers = 66 pop | 30 pop @ 3.825 + 6 pop @ 2.55 | total upkeep tax = 130.05 (7.65 increase from 2.8)

Example T3 compositions/upkeep:
Horma + 2x Terma + Venom + Warrior + 2x Carnifex = 90 pop | 30 pop @ 3.825 + 30 pop @ 2.55 | total upkeep tax = 191.25 (15.2712 decrease from 2.8)
Horma + Terma + Venom + Warrior + Ravs + Neurothrope + Swarmlord + Lictor = 94 pop | 15 pop @ 5.1 + 30 pop @ 3.825 + 12 pop @ 3.1875 + 7 pop @ 2.7314 | total upkeep tax = 248.6198 (28.0598 increase from 2.8)
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby Malachi » Fri 17 Aug, 2018 1:07 am

While my skill really doesn't allow me to take significant voice on balance, I would just point out a couple of things.

1. Whirlwind - is it possible to make it do friendly knockback? In general, enemy-only knockback seems completely bonkers, and it obviously makes it that much more powerful in team games, when you can just park it behind the frontline and allow your allies free shots as the enemy army is sitting on their backs. In 1v1, it's rarely an issue.

2. Inferno damage Raveners? Is it just me, or we are talking TCSM with jump/burrow capability? Inferno is anti-all damage, what's to stop Nid players to mass these guys and own like everything?

3. Leman Russ gets a buff?

Overall, I second the others that ask for explanaition and justification on the balance changes. Many of them look completely unjustified.
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Re: 2.9 Beta 1 - Preview changelog

Postby The great Cornholio » Fri 17 Aug, 2018 2:15 am

While my skill really doesn't allow me to take significant voice on balance, I would just point out a couple of things.



You have as much right as others to speak and voice your opinions. So feel free to do so. ;)

But yeah I doubt those Ravs are gonne become a thing in 2.9..

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