Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

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kirbby
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Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby kirbby » Fri 10 Aug, 2018 4:21 pm

Hi. I watch a lot of indrid casts and ork players go for lots of nob squads and they destroy everything from a tank to a baneblade really easy, can you limit them to one squad, lots of nob squads with landraider support is unstoppable in team games. here is the example
Last edited by kirbby on Sun 26 Aug, 2018 6:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Crewfinity
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby Crewfinity » Fri 10 Aug, 2018 5:01 pm

Pretty sure terminators are not limited to a single squad. Best i can recall, only units that are limited are each race's super unit and seer council.
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby oLev » Fri 10 Aug, 2018 5:09 pm

Watching Indrids casts is no substitute for actual experience in the game and should not be the basis of balance decisions.
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Fri 10 Aug, 2018 5:16 pm

kirbby wrote:Hi. I watch a lot of indrid casts and ork players go for lots of nob squads and they destroy everything from a tank to a baneblade really easy, can you limit them to one squad like assault terminators are for the captain?


Here's a game against some Nob squads where I counter them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_EXY0RZ2vw&t=15s

They're not powerful enough that they need to be limited. Assault Termies aren't capped either.
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby kirbby » Fri 10 Aug, 2018 5:19 pm

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:
kirbby wrote:Hi. I watch a lot of indrid casts and ork players go for lots of nob squads and they destroy everything from a tank to a baneblade really easy, can you limit them to one squad like assault terminators are for the captain?


Here's a game against some Nob squads where I counter them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_EXY0RZ2vw&t=15s

They're not powerful enough that they need to be limited. Assault Termies aren't capped either.

i am talking about 3v3 games
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby OceansAteAlaska » Fri 10 Aug, 2018 6:00 pm

The game isn't balanced around 3v3s

Watching indrids casts is not a good basis for balance changes
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby PianoMan » Fri 10 Aug, 2018 6:14 pm

kirbby wrote:Hi. I watch a lot of indrid casts and ork players go for lots of nob squads and they destroy everything from a tank to a baneblade really easy, can you limit them to one squad, lots of nob squads with landraider support is unstoppable in team games


Indrid casts long games where races with strong t3 spammy units usually win, its no indicator of balance, he could cast several games where the IG player baselocks the enemy in t1 or where eldar instawin in t2 but he won't because they're not even over 20 min usually then plebs come and say omg sm so op termi spam op
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby Atlas » Fri 10 Aug, 2018 6:25 pm

Crewfinity wrote:Pretty sure terminators are not limited to a single squad. Best i can recall, only units that are limited are each race's super unit and seer council.


Tbf the eternity cooldown is effectively meant to be their squad cap. It's fine because it's SM :P
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby egewithin » Fri 10 Aug, 2018 9:14 pm

Can I ask why Terminators have a stupid 6 min cooldown? If I have the resources to buy them, why the hell I can't buy them? They are not even a game changer thing like Nobz anyway...
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby Nurland » Sat 11 Aug, 2018 7:48 am

Watching Indrid's casts isn't a good basis for balance evaluation.

He picks long games with as much carnage etc as he can find with big, beefy units. He casts games that are entertaining since he is making entertainment.

Most good Ork players don't instabuy Nobz in most scenarios anyway. Let alone go for two even in team games.
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby Telos » Tue 14 Aug, 2018 8:05 am

Crewfinity wrote:Pretty sure terminators are not limited to a single squad. Best i can recall, only units that are limited are each race's super unit and seer council.


Just out of curiosity, why are Seer Council limited to one unit? They don't seem considerably stronger than Nobs or Termies so I'm wondering what the reasoning is.
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby Black Relic » Tue 14 Aug, 2018 4:07 pm

They are supporting unit and a good combat unit. Plus they can disrupt ALOT. If the aura was exclusive and didn't stack it would b possible to limit them to two instead but I doubt people would want that nor does it make a lot of sense here since you want/ need those auras as elder later in the game imo.
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby Asmon » Tue 14 Aug, 2018 7:01 pm

Actually at the beginning of the game relic made seers capped to one squad, non-capped terminators and nobz and nobody ever bothered to question those choices, which were in no way balance decisions but lore related ones.

Then Terminators were nerfed a little and there's the long cd that makes them ok.

Nobz have been nerfed also but still remain the strongest heavy melee unit in the game.

Seers were hardly used for a very long time and now they're ok-ish but still not great. You buy them against hi races if you don't need anti-vehicle units, or when you absolutely need a meat shield unit and you can't get an avatar. Their main weakness is their too many models, which doesn't show much in 1v1 but is severely underlined in 3v3.
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby Black Relic » Tue 14 Aug, 2018 9:28 pm

^^ that is a fair point. Their model count is on the high side. I would kinda would like them to having their range damage do physic_pvp. As strange as that sounds it opens up their versatility and can make them dangerous even in range combat. Since they actually tank ALOT when in heavy cover (if there is any). Some minor adjustments such as add collision mesh and all models can get in heavy cover so long has it is somewhat large enough.

Would be a nice change of pass since then they can be used as a counter initiation unit as well a range platform vs SHI and t3 HI units. Of course them might need to lose something to compensate. Say less knockback strength on their leap into melee. But it might be worth allowing them to have it as see how much their role in elder t3 expands. Since sometimes you do not even want Seer council into melee and a wasted unit for Eldar imo hurts them the most.

On topic about Nobs, I think they are fine. Hard to deal with as IG without Catachans since you need that on demand control to deal with Nobs and IG has no other answer other than Catachans and stacked set ups. Frenzy is the main reason why they are OP in Team games. But I think that they are decent since they will take damage and are no immune anymore. Still a bullet sponge and now they can be punished slightly easier for being over aggressive.
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby Dullahan » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 2:14 am

Asmon wrote:Actually at the beginning of the game relic made seers capped to one squad, non-capped terminators and nobz and nobody ever bothered to question those choices, which were in no way balance decisions but lore related ones.

Then Terminators were nerfed a little and there's the long cd that makes them ok.

Nobz have been nerfed also but still remain the strongest heavy melee unit in the game.

Seers were hardly used for a very long time and now they're ok-ish but still not great. You buy them against hi races if you don't need anti-vehicle units, or when you absolutely need a meat shield unit and you can't get an avatar. Their main weakness is their too many models, which doesn't show much in 1v1 but is severely underlined in 3v3.


Seer Council being limited had more to do with them being a sort of retinue for the Farseer than anything else.
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby Telos » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 8:26 am

Black Relic wrote:Frenzy is the main reason why they are OP in Team games.


I agree that the main problem of Nobz is Frenzy, but I'd say it can also be for 1v1's as well. It's a relatively cheap upgrade (for what it provides) that makes an already tanky low-unit count squad even tankier, and boosts their damage, and gives them suppression immunity, for 10 SECONDS, that's an eternity! On top of this the Nob squad already does really impressive damage so it's very difficult for many races to counter it esp. those largely reliant on suppression for crowd control (Tyranids, and IG to a lesser extent). Not to mention their synergy with a Weirdboy can guarantee they'll win most engagements.

I don't think the ability is that bad, but I'd like to see more counterplay involved for it, or at least more strategy necessary when using it. It makes it so Nobz can basically march into a base and wipe out the unit of their choice and then retreat possibly without even losing a unit model. It takes very high coordination on the part of the Nobz opponent in using their units and their CC abilities (multiple CC options required if you're IG) on a single unit that's basically click a button and right click what you want to erase.

Why not give the ability a drawback of some kind? Like make the Nobz unable to retreat for 10 seconds after using the ability, or make it like c.dred's blood rage where the player loses control of them for the duration? At least then the Ork player has to be a bit more considerate with how to use it.
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby Torpid » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 8:54 am

Telos wrote:
Black Relic wrote:Frenzy is the main reason why they are OP in Team games.


I agree that the main problem of Nobz is Frenzy, but I'd say it can also be for 1v1's as well. It's a relatively cheap upgrade (for what it provides) that makes an already tanky low-unit count squad even tankier, and boosts their damage, and gives them suppression immunity, for 10 SECONDS, that's an eternity! On top of this the Nob squad already does really impressive damage so it's very difficult for many races to counter it esp. those largely reliant on suppression for crowd control (Tyranids, and IG to a lesser extent). Not to mention their synergy with a Weirdboy can guarantee they'll win most engagements.

I don't think the ability is that bad, but I'd like to see more counterplay involved for it, or at least more strategy necessary when using it. It makes it so Nobz can basically march into a base and wipe out the unit of their choice and then retreat possibly without even losing a unit model. It takes very high coordination on the part of the Nobz opponent in using their units and their CC abilities (multiple CC options required if you're IG) on a single unit that's basically click a button and right click what you want to erase.

Why not give the ability a drawback of some kind? Like make the Nobz unable to retreat for 10 seconds after using the ability, or make it like c.dred's blood rage where the player loses control of them for the duration? At least then the Ork player has to be a bit more considerate with how to use it.


I'd say it costing as much red as a webway gate drop every single time you use it is a pretty big drawback. Especially when all a nob squad can do is a-move at a pretty slow speed towards stuff...
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby Telos » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 9:31 am

Torpid wrote:I'd say it costing as much red as a webway gate drop every single time you use it is a pretty big drawback. Especially when all a nob squad can do is a-move at a pretty slow speed towards stuff...


A fair point, but where is the counterplay when the ability is used? It's costly but I struggle to find many situations when you shouldn't use it (except perhaps when they can win without it, which isn't infrequent). And are they really that slow? They have a charge and I think only Seer council and SL are faster T3 melee units, and it's not like Orks really lack the tools to get them into the fight faster.
Last edited by Telos on Thu 16 Aug, 2018 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby Nurland » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 10:03 am

Well it is not like you can't stun or knock them over when they are frenzied. Once frenzy wears off, all you need is a single source of suppression and they are more or less fucked.
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby Telos » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 12:36 pm

Nurland wrote:Well it is not like you can't stun or knock them over when they are frenzied. Once frenzy wears off, all you need is a single source of suppression and they are more or less fucked.


If dealing with the Nobz in a vacuum I think this would be true. The problem I think is all the synergies that an Ork player has with them. They won't be the only threat on the field but because of Frenzy (and the double redundancy of similar abilities that could synergize with them like Boss Pole, 'Ard Boyz, Super Tuff Beam, Warp vomit, etc.) they kind of require the absolute attention of your entire army and all the CC you can field.

If you have a suppressing unit or any unit that could otherwise disable them, it really doesn't seem that hard for them to close the distance and take it out within 10 seconds...
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby Captain Mathias » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 1:49 pm

Telos wrote:
or make it like c.dred's blood rage where the player loses control of them for the duration?


Sounds orky. I like it
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby GuruSkippy » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 3:31 pm

Captain Mathias wrote:
Telos wrote:
or make it like c.dred's blood rage where the player loses control of them for the duration?


Sounds orky. I like it

Disagree, it's absolutely not orky.
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby Nurland » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 6:17 pm

Telos wrote:
Nurland wrote:Well it is not like you can't stun or knock them over when they are frenzied. Once frenzy wears off, all you need is a single source of suppression and they are more or less fucked.


If dealing with the Nobz in a vacuum I think this would be true. The problem I think is all the synergies that an Ork player has with them. They won't be the only threat on the field but because of Frenzy (and the double redundancy of similar abilities that could synergize with them like Boss Pole, 'Ard Boyz, Super Tuff Beam, Warp vomit, etc.) they kind of require the absolute attention of your entire army and all the CC you can field.

If you have a suppressing unit or any unit that could otherwise disable them, it really doesn't seem that hard for them to close the distance and take it out within 10 seconds...


You can force Nobz to pop the fenzy early with various abilities and then when it wears off you can use another source of crowd control. They require a lot of resources to deal with but they also drain red and cost 200 power so it would be totally silly if they could be countered with minimal effort.

Most decent players don't even instantly go for Nobz in most scenarios. Instead they go for Looted tanks and Kommandoes which are way better in 80-90% of scenarios.
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby Dark Riku » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 9:38 pm

Where are the +1 buttons? :) (Seriously, can we get those? Like you can give +1 or -1 :p)
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby kirbby » Fri 24 Aug, 2018 3:38 pm

egewithin wrote:Can I ask why Terminators have a stupid 6 min cooldown? If I have the resources to buy them, why the hell I can't buy them? They are not even a game changer thing like Nobz anyway...

I agree that terminators are not as insane as Nobsquad but that cooldown might just be a good thing because i have seen people spam them occasionally
I would also like to see nob squad at least be limited to 2 squad at least so people wont fill their rosters with nobs. i think they are limited to 2 in dawn of war 1
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby Toilailee » Fri 24 Aug, 2018 4:48 pm

Telos wrote:I agree that the main problem of Nobz is Frenzy, but I'd say it can also be for 1v1's as well. It's a relatively cheap upgrade (for what it provides) that makes an already tanky low-unit count squad even tankier


Nobs are NOT "already tanky" unit for a T3 unit at 750hp and HI armor. Sure they're tanky enough to not die to a stiff breeze like sluggas in T3 but still very vulnerable to focus fire and easily forced off with just damage if they don't have access to frenzy or support abilities that either heal them or enable them to get into the fight without losing a large chunk of their HP first.
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Fri 24 Aug, 2018 7:07 pm

Termies need a cooldown decrease. Getting 2 Assault Cannon Termies and an Assault Cannon FC Termie is my desirable endgame due to how deliciously fun it is. I normally offset the timer by getting a Land Raider after the first Termie, but still!
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby kirbby » Sat 25 Aug, 2018 7:59 am

Nobs may not be a tanky t3 unit but they have frenzy and other support and when you have 3-4 squads for each player, nob spam will wash away the opponents even 3 chaos with shrines
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby Nurland » Sat 25 Aug, 2018 9:47 am

You should't really lose to mass Nobz unless the Ork players already rekt you or if you just failed hard. You have a ton of anti HI and crowd control as Chaos.

As stated earlier, filling your pop with Nobz is usually not really desirable.
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Re: Limiting nob squad purchase to one squad

Postby egewithin » Sat 25 Aug, 2018 6:35 pm

I don't think multiple Nobz squads are causing a problem (if they are from the same player) One or two of them are effective enough. In the end, they are a T3 unit that can be suppressed, knockbacked, and take shitloads of damage from HI weapons.

It may become a problem if multiple players have 1 Nobz squad per each, since it doesn't sink their economy like getting 3 Nobz squads as one player. Even if Nobz have an issue (tbh, they don't) limiting their purchase is not the way to go.
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