Apothecary things

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Crewfinity
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Crewfinity » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 8:05 pm

Cyris wrote:I fucking love the idea of swapping FC teleporter for a jetpack.


I proposed that exact thing years ago when i was n00b but nobody liked it :(

https://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewto ... ack#p24671
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 8:30 pm

It would make an melee apo much more easy to play and give us an new toy. It would also not be quiet the same as an teleporter, so no copy past.

What I also would propose, is a more interaction between wargears, like the megaboom kit and stickbomz. Purification rites in combo with armor of purity could have an additional effect, like also effecting the apo also or doing another typ of dmg (tho less then overall).

Also, what do you think about Sanguine chainsword granting battleregen to nearby units, if Apo is in melee?


Sidenote about the Blood Angel elite scheme; is the Assault Marine Seargent meant to look like an chaplin? If so, is it possible to give him an crozius?
Also, don t have BA veterans have all golden helmets? and lotz more gold on them?
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby PianoMan » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 8:41 pm

melee apo isn't hard to play just don't play like a moron and even if you do then you have the revive global to save you resources
do not buff rites unless you want chaos and nids to be even more fucked by apo
sanguine is cheap and viable in certain matchups again no need to change

time to be a dick i guess xdd. you should realise just how much better you can still get, your apo play is low level and you've barely used him at all so maybe it would be a decent idea to play him more before you start suggesting random bullshit
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 8:51 pm

PianoMan wrote:melee apo isn't hard to play just don't play like a moron and even if you do then you have the revive global to save you resources
do not buff rites unless you want chaos and nids to be even more fucked by apo
sanguine is cheap and viable in certain matchups again no need to change

time to be a dick i guess xdd. you should realise just how much better you can still get, your apo play is low level and you've barely used him at all so maybe it would be a decent idea to play him more before you start suggesting random bullshit


Everybody dumps their dakka on the Apo first and Sanguine chainsword is not good for doing actual dmg fast enough, 20 power for an survival tool disguised as weapon is a bit less.
I said, rites in combo with something could be made stronger, so some limit is there. So stop saying stuff, that didn t exist in the first place!
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby PianoMan » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 9:12 pm

then stop leading with the fucking apo
purity lowers heal cd, rites is an addition to heal therefore purity makes rites stronger! no need to add anything else
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 9:16 pm

PianoMan wrote:then stop leading with the fucking apo
purity lowers heal cd, rites is an addition to heal therefore purity makes rites stronger! no need to add anything else


Yeah, and you can only hope taht it conveniently gets together. Purity armor reduce is not quick enough in heated engagements, so it has to be compensated otherwise.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby PianoMan » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 9:21 pm

please tell me how it isn't enough, how many good players have you beaten with apo exactly xd
just because you're bad at positioning and can't delay the engagement doesn't mean its bad
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby xXKageAsashinXx » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 9:33 pm

That completely ignores any faction and/or hero that specializes in forcing engagements...
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Codex » Fri 13 Jul, 2018 3:57 am

TE | NoSkill wrote:
PianoMan wrote:melee apo isn't hard to play just don't play like a moron and even if you do then you have the revive global to save you resources
do not buff rites unless you want chaos and nids to be even more fucked by apo
sanguine is cheap and viable in certain matchups again no need to change

time to be a dick i guess xdd. you should realise just how much better you can still get, your apo play is low level and you've barely used him at all so maybe it would be a decent idea to play him more before you start suggesting random bullshit


Everybody dumps their dakka on the Apo first and Sanguine chainsword is not good for doing actual dmg fast enough, 20 power for an survival tool disguised as weapon is a bit less.
I said, rites in combo with something could be made stronger, so some limit is there. So stop saying stuff, that didn t exist in the first place!



Firstly, let's make sure that any arguments are about apo and not omg why u so noob. Insults have no place on this forum.

Secondly, I used Sanguine Chainsword in a 3v3. It's good imo. Ofc it's a small sample size but I held my own against an Fc who went for a bigger T1 because I had SC, holding the line and maintaining more map presence. I used my Apo's hp as a resource and baited them to chase my apo whilst going for his more vulnerable backline.

I think SC is more viable than you give it credit for.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Nurland » Fri 13 Jul, 2018 5:46 am

I used to go Sanguine quite often when I played/play Apo even in 3s... Always felt it was a pretty decent wargear. A very significant damage increase to Apo and a massive survivability boost.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Fri 13 Jul, 2018 10:19 am

What concerns me is the big power decline the sword has
after T1;
51 dmg per hit melee is like the FC's default weapon;
Decent for T1, bad after that.

The heal is good, no doubt, getting into melee then is another thing; can be done, usually Apo draws much of the enemiey's fire. And his base health is not the highest, so it depends much on how high he can get into combat.

For this all, the sword does too less imo.

What I proposed was not a direct buff, as an chainsword can only do so much, but rather an indrect support buff.
Battleregen is 1 hp/s , effectively 1,5 x 3, under melee requirement;
Would certainly open up for more aggressive play with tacs and termies/ librarians and Asm's.
Perhaps not even 1hp/s battleregen, but rather 0,5 as the apos aura is an factor to be considered.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Codex » Fri 13 Jul, 2018 10:45 am

I mean, almost all t1 wargears fall off in some way. The classic example is fc power sword. I always loved that wargear, even when everyone else was using hammer or fist. And i was smacking people around with the sword, because of the immediate value and momentum that it gave me.

I think you're looking at the sword wrong. The sword gives immediate power and staying power, which means more levels for the apo in the long run. It often forces your opponent to deal with a tankier apo, effectively wasting more of his dps time on a hero that will do his damage, dump his heal, then go home without dying if really necessary. Meanwhile his troops can focus their targets and be fresh for the rest of the fight.

Yes, getting the apo into melee with decent hp is a concern, but that's a matter of play. The sword gives him deent charge stats and a healing pistol. So lead with an asm jump on their ranged line, charge the apo in. As you progress through the game you get more tools to enable a good engagement, e.g. Opening with shotgun blast, grenade from infil, scout melee from infil, asm jump and merciless, angels of death, forcefully charging a razorback then dumping your army into combat, librarian tools or leading with dread.

Worst case scenario you stick your apo into heavy cover and bolt pistol to bait some dps so your army can take a better position.

Your proposed buffs require the premise that the SC is underpowered. I'm just really not convinced that it is. I think it's a lot better than the power axe.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Crewfinity » Fri 13 Jul, 2018 12:08 pm

It sounds like you want SC to be more like feeder tendrils, which is silly.

LA is a loner assasin hero so he can get high damage and self heal for a high cost.

Apo is a aupport hero, not a nuker. He's not the one dealing most of your damage, nor should he have a ton of self heal - SC already allows him to stay in fights much longer than he normally would. It makes a massive difference in t1 between fighting default tics and needing to heal himself before he goes down, or owning the whole tic squad whilr barely taking any damage, and being able to use his heal on one of your beefier power armor units.

It also allows him to bully a lot of t1 squads and gain levels early, which is critical for apo even more than most heroes because of how his heal scales.

Apo may have some weak points or deficiencies. But Sanguine Chainsword is absolutely not one of them.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Cheekie Monkie » Fri 13 Jul, 2018 12:19 pm

I might give the SC another chance, my reasoning for never getting it is that whereas rites scale, SC does not. Rites is cheaper and also increases both the apo and the army's survivability vs melee - that KB makes all the difference between a successful or unsuccessful retreat!

Axe just feels very efficient for what it does - a dps weapon, a level gainer and an energy battery for the low cost of 20 power. If it ever was taken back to T1 I definitely think it warrants a power increase.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby LOCALgHOST » Fri 13 Jul, 2018 12:42 pm

Atlas wrote:I do think we can work on his melee builds a bit. The bolter is just soooo dominant.


it's quite simple - get back the APA on T1. I will forget bolter forever.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Thibix Magnus » Fri 13 Jul, 2018 12:51 pm

Cheekie Monkie wrote:Lore wise, I'm disappointed that no SM hero has the jump pack option, it makes so much more sense than teleporting in power armour.


(totally derailing thread but replacing teleport with jump pack for the force commander would make him look awesome while giving a chance to avoid the telehammer <3 End of side-thread)
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Codex » Fri 13 Jul, 2018 1:07 pm

LOCALgHOST wrote:
Atlas wrote:I do think we can work on his melee builds a bit. The bolter is just soooo dominant.


it's quite simple - get back the APA on T1. I will forget bolter forever.


Sorry to be a spoilsport, but are we seriously suggesting a power weapon with energy drain in T1 on a support hero of all things?

Next thing you're gonna tell me we're gonna give him Iron Halo or or whatever.

I mean, compare the power axe's stats to Warlock's Merciless Witchblade.

The issue with Power Axe is you want levels on Apo and sustain to make him useful in melee but then the transition cost to get to Power Axe doesn't feel worth it as SM is power hungry in T2.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Fri 13 Jul, 2018 3:46 pm

I never said, that I wanted another dmg type on it;

But a bit more dmg ( like max 10) and a bit more use out of it.
It is cheap, I ll grant you that, yet it scales incredibly bad.
FC power sword does at least power melee and improve battlecry.
This does not lose in value over time
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Codex » Fri 13 Jul, 2018 4:18 pm

Well yes, I didn't claim that's what you wanted, I specifically quoted the posts I was arguing against.

On the other hand 10 dmg is a huge buff, even 5 dmg would be a big buff. Consider that that is every swing, and last time I checked ASM swung for 35 damage.

'It is cheap, I ll grant you that, yet it scales incredibly bad.
FC power sword does at least power melee and improve battlecry.
This does not lose in value over time'

I don't agree with this point at all.

Power melee isn't THAT much better a damage type. It gives a bonus against HI, SHI, Vehicle and Building.

HI is already present in T1, and is barely more common in T2.
SHi is really a T3 thing, when it's in T2 it's on stuff like Tyrant Guard which isn't an attractive target for FC anyway.
Vehicle it's like 0.3x vs 0.1x multiplier, so 3x more effective. That sounds great! Until you realise that you're plinking damage on walkers that just crush him underfoot. The only time the damage is relevant is if you're hitting transports into their rear armor, which shouldn't happen anyway because they're all faster than him, teleport notwithstanding. Long story short if you're investing 40 power into teleport so you can hit rear armor with power sword you're doing it wrong.
Building (generators) again this is hardly relevant.

So really the only multiplier difference which is relevant at all is SHI, but if you're running power sword in T3 you're doing it wrong as well. So saying that it scales better... well, sure, but does it really?

Also, the improved battle cry is great and all, but it is fundamentally something you will transition away from, because the battlecry is often not enough of a contribution. You need your FC to be smacking things.

On the other hand, Apo scales differently to the FC. You don't need him to be smacking stuff for lots of damage, although the SC damage is welcome. What you want from an Apo is for him to stay on the field for as long as possible, and for his army to stay on the field for as long as possible.

Think of it this way: Imagine two wargears, A and B. Wargear A does 55 dps in melee but does nothing to help his staying power. Wargear B does 15 dps but means the Apo can stay on the field unless he gets focussed by 2 tac squads and a commander. Which wargear would be better?

The truth is, Apo scales by getting levels, because it improves his personal staying power, his heal and his energy efficiency. The damage increase is nice but not a big deal, and the melee skill is nice because he's harder to chain KB to oblivion. That's it. This is why I like the Sanguine Chainsword so much, because you can aggressively use the Apo's hp as a resource and gives you far more options to use Heal on his army rather than himself (although sometimes healing yourself is just necessary.)

This heal staying power doesn't really lose value over time, until you're getting to T3. It more than suffices for T2 because really, are you going to be hitting anything other than infantry with your Apo?
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Fri 13 Jul, 2018 7:17 pm

Thing is, apo's effectiveness is depending stronger then most heroes on levels;
And you can only level through killing mainly, and at that the SC is not that good.
And it does not help the apo against beeing focused and blitzed, but hopes on an prolonged melee. Even then, it takes ages to kill something.
Granted, it s ok, that it is not that strong, but with the healing beeing only in melee effective (Boltpistol also needs to get very close).

That it cannot be an weapon with like 80 dmg per hit is clear, so even if the dmg was buffed by say 4, it would only be an decent melee weapon and mainly an survival tool; to compensate the lack of melee efficiency, an small battleregen aura could be granted, if the apo is in melee
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby xXKageAsashinXx » Fri 13 Jul, 2018 10:26 pm

Wonder if it's possible to make an equation where the game looks at the damage dealt, them multiplies the heal based off of how much damage was mitigated. Like 10% (CMDR) 33% (HI) 70% (SHI) more healing for the bolt pistol and 30% (CMDR, SHI) for the chainsword. because of the fact those weapon types deal less damage to the armour types I mentioned? Not that you should be using SC anywhere near t3, but if you are, then at least the healing has scaled slightly against races with SHI units, and you can strategically tank more damage by not tying up a ranged squad and hitting on a commander instead.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Forestradio » Sat 14 Jul, 2018 2:21 am

TE | NoSkill wrote:Purity armor reduce is not quick enough in heated engagements, so it has to be compensated otherwise.
watch ace of swords apo
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Codex » Sat 14 Jul, 2018 3:09 am

Just so we're clear, I think I've said all I can say on the matter.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby PianoMan » Sat 14 Jul, 2018 10:33 am

Forestradio wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:Purity armor reduce is not quick enough in heated engagements, so it has to be compensated otherwise.
watch ace of swords apo

He could've watched any of the games I've sent him, he's not going to watch good players play apo
i know i shouldn't just tell him to l2p but codex you know you wouldn't have to write any of that if he actually had some experience xd
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby LOCALgHOST » Sat 14 Jul, 2018 11:01 am

bring apo apa back :)
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Codex » Sat 14 Jul, 2018 11:13 am

PianoMan wrote:He could've watched any of the games I've sent him, he's not going to watch good players play apo
i know i shouldn't just tell him to l2p but codex you know you wouldn't have to write any of that if he actually had some experience xd


Let me be clear here. The point of the balance discussions is to provide some discussion to help Cyris and others design the new patches. It's not to compare epeen or skill, and it's not about any individual player. Ever.

So if your post is about a player rather than Apothecary things, don't bother posting it.

Let's try to get the discussion back to something useful for the balance of the mod please.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Black Relic » Sat 14 Jul, 2018 6:47 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:Thing is, apo's effectiveness is depending stronger then most heroes on levels;
And you can only level through killing mainly, and at that the SC is not that good.
And it does not help the apo against beeing focused and blitzed, but hopes on an prolonged melee. Even then, it takes ages to kill something.
Granted, it s ok, that it is not that strong, but with the healing beeing only in melee effective (Boltpistol also needs to get very close).

That it cannot be an weapon with like 80 dmg per hit is clear, so even if the dmg was buffed by say 4, it would only be an decent melee weapon and mainly an survival tool; to compensate the lack of melee efficiency, an small battleregen aura could be granted, if the apo is in melee


The SC is fine.You need to remember that heroes get a massive boost in XP when they get it. Plus Dow2 does a good job in distributing XP when a model is killed. Apo doesn't need to get the last hit in, he just needs to get a hit in and thats how he levels.

You are right he doesnt do alot of damage outside of t1. But his main role is to allow his army to stay in the fight to do their damage netting more value from your other units. That is the benefit of apo.

If ASM jump on something you can heal the damage. A buddyi used to play with had a risy move sometimes. ASM jump plus a shotgun blast (if he could) into a purification vial. High risk but if he hit it he would take almost no loses since he could just heal the damage the vials would do to the ASM. Even in midt2 that combo hurts.

Apo's weapons are fine. His armor imo needs work to just make all of them not better nor worse than the other (depending on the match up/ build of course).
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Atlas » Sat 14 Jul, 2018 8:16 pm

That's a good point, maybe it's the armors we should be taking a look at rather than weapons or accessories.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Nurland » Sat 14 Jul, 2018 10:58 pm

SC is great as it is. Power Axe could be reworked into something different. It does have a role now but maybe it could be something with more scaling?

Not sure how to change armors. I think they all have a pretty decent specific roles.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Sun 15 Jul, 2018 2:55 pm

As I said, the melee requirement on such an squishy hero ( who you wan t to get damaged least of all) and the bad dmg is what makes it not good beyond T1. They only reason to get it is the healing, why becomes gradually less efficient, due to stronger units and weapons entering the field.

It is only chosen more often, because it makes an melee apo somewhat ok in the way of not dying immediatly, which is not enough, considering apo`s heal is tied to levels.

Anyway, let s look at the other stuff, particularly armor;

Armor of the apothecarion is still the ultimate gear, though it is expensive enough.

Combat stims are nice, the ability is good, the xtra health is nice, yet it feels a bit lacking

Armor of purity, health is ok, regen is nice and the CD to heal is ok.


What I would propose is combat stims giving the apo battleregen of 1 hp/s, 100 health and higher melee dmg. The ability seems good enough to me

For armor of purity I would say 150 hp, regen of 2 hp/s and CD decrease of all abilities by 15%, scaling by 5 % every level.
In combination with armor of purity, purification rites could affect the apo himself too or do plasma dmg.

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