Apothecary things

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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TE | NoSkill
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Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 2:00 am

Ima playing apo main and tryin out stuff; havin noticed stuff

Thing is, apo has the ultimate combo with armor of apothecarion, advanced medical equipment and customized stormbolter. This is the best combo in ANY situation, because the other equipment too niche or too focused.
What I want to say; The Apothecary plays a bit one-dimensional in what he does.

-Sanguine chainsword
is decent for its price, yet it´s just an decent survival tool beyond T1. That´s a bit less, considering the melee requirements and the only decent dmg.
Perhaps granting battleregen to units around it (ofc not effected by the apo aura)? Or weakening the hit model?


-Armor of purity
The CD on the heal is nice, but it does not make that much difference in an heated engagement; 16ish seconds are still a long time
Since the Apo has a lot of his efficiency scaled to leveling, why could the the extra CD not start at 15% and increase by 5% each level.
Alternatively, why not let all abilities be affected, as the Apo´s abilities beyond armor choice are geared towards direct action ?


-Combat stims
the ability is great, the extra hp is nice, yet it´s a bit...simple. Hp is always nice, but what about increasing the Apo´s melee dmg by an margin also and not granting so much health? Say, 15% to make him a bit more useful in melee?

-Purification rites
Beyond T1 even the knockback is only decent, even with the possible scaling to 40 dmg.
It´s effect could be extended to combat stims, to not sololy rely on the heal.
Alternatively, the dmg type could be altered through an combination to do plasma (?). (TBH, purification rites in it s current state is only half an wargear).

Lastly, to spice the apo a bit up, what about allowing him to equip an jumppack, wich gives him +20 energy and the jump ability, to make his gameplay a bit more interesting? Him getting into melee is not as easy aswell as him having direct battle effects in other ways then dealing dmg.

?
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Psycho » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 3:03 am

TE | NoSkill wrote:The CD on the heal is nice, but it does not make that much difference in an heated engagement; 16ish seconds are still a long time


I ran some numbers time ago. In practice AoP's CD reduction does literally nothing until you reach level 3 or get AME. After that, it's a "benefits you in a situation you're only gonna be in once every 10 games" wargear. The wargear has an effect in very rare instances, since most engagements will be (assuming 16 second CD because can't be arsed to check again):

A) The engagement ends before the 16 seconds after first heal mark, be it win or lose
B) The engagement somehow drags on past the 16 second after heal mark, and you need a heal
C) The engagement drags on past the 16 second after heal mark, but you're being conservative with your heal, so you keep it for at least 4 more seconds making AoP redundant

Situation B isn't gonna happen all the time since if the engagement didn't end in 16 seconds, chances are it's gonna last 4 more seconds. It's not always like that, but in my experience the opponent either bumrushes you due to your passive heal making it worse for him to drag on the engagement, or it's WW1 all over again with just potshots, in which case the passive heal can do just fine with tacs in green cover till he bumrushes.

In T1 you don't have alternatives, but the wargear does literally nothing for a huge percentage if not the entirety of T1. At T2 you can either choose combat stims for an instant effect on the engagement instead of having to wait 16 seconds in an engagement for the possibility of AoP changing anything, or AoP.

Purification rites does not synergize at all either due to the aforementioned points. Quicker knockback sounds nice, till you realize that you're gonna be wasting a heal if you don't end up in that magical sweet spot you're only gonna be seeing once every couple matches, and that's sacrificing combat stims on something like ASM.

God help you if you plan on using any other wargear that has an ability requiring energy, like vials or bolter.

TL;DR Armor of Purity is literally useless.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby xXKageAsashinXx » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 3:18 am

Isn't AoP useful for melee builds because of the +2 speed? Not that Apo melee is even worth going, but that synergy is there.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 3:32 am

A jump pack would be so incredibly op XD

The Apo's weakness is getting focused and a jump pack makes that impossible.

I used Armor of Purity all the time back when I played Apo. It's mainly for 1v1's where you skirmish all over the map and reposition all the time. It's useful in T2, but useless before.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby boss » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 4:31 am

Only one thing I say about apothecary is don't play him lmao he's one of the worst hero's in the game and has been for the longish time ever since relic nerf the shit out of him back in retail just play force commander or techmarine life become much easier then.
Forums great more shit to talk about.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby PianoMan » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 10:32 am

apo up
armor of purity useless
jumppack apo
stormbolter blob armor and more energy wargear best combo

you guys obviously don't know how to use him properly lmao, watch at least the first one to see a proper usage of him xd, it's 2.7.2 but considering how much time you put into writing this even tho you don't know much i'm pretty sure thats not a problem for you

https://dawnofwar.info/esl/match/34439282
https://dawnofwar.info/esl/match/34560456
https://dawnofwar.info/esl/match/34490540
https://dawnofwar.info/esl/match/34598315
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby PianoMan » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 10:33 am

boss wrote:Only one thing I say about apothecary is don't play him lmao he's one of the worst hero's in the game and has been for the longish time ever since relic nerf the shit out of him back in retail just play force commander or techmarine life become much easier then.

apo is better than fc/tm againast chaos and nids so pls
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 1:58 pm

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:A jump pack would be so incredibly op XD

The Apo's weakness is getting focused and a jump pack makes that impossible.

I used Armor of Purity all the time back when I played Apo. It's mainly for 1v1's where you skirmish all over the map and reposition all the time. It's useful in T2, but useless before.


Why? Remember, the Apo is mainly a support hero, and this stuff costs energy also.

If the jump was priced at 55, then you had enough energy for 1 more heal immeadiatly. That´s not that hard.

Also you sacrifice extra support capabilities for more direct combat influence, as the jumppack would fill in the wargear slot.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby PianoMan » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 2:13 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:A jump pack would be so incredibly op XD

The Apo's weakness is getting focused and a jump pack makes that impossible.

I used Armor of Purity all the time back when I played Apo. It's mainly for 1v1's where you skirmish all over the map and reposition all the time. It's useful in T2, but useless before.


Why? Remember, the Apo is mainly a support hero, and this stuff costs energy also.

If the jump was priced at 55, then you had enough energy for 1 more heal immeadiatly. That´s not that hard.

Also you sacrifice extra support capabilities for more direct combat influence, as the jumppack would fill in the wargear slot.

what about we 1v1, i'll show you that hes more than just a shitty support hero

you can't just go around asking for something like jumppacks on heroes lmao
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 3:10 pm

PianoMan wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:A jump pack would be so incredibly op XD

The Apo's weakness is getting focused and a jump pack makes that impossible.

I used Armor of Purity all the time back when I played Apo. It's mainly for 1v1's where you skirmish all over the map and reposition all the time. It's useful in T2, but useless before.


Why? Remember, the Apo is mainly a support hero, and this stuff costs energy also.

If the jump was priced at 55, then you had enough energy for 1 more heal immeadiatly. That´s not that hard.

Also you sacrifice extra support capabilities for more direct combat influence, as the jumppack would fill in the wargear slot.

what about we 1v1, i'll show you that hes more than just a shitty support hero

you can't just go around asking for something like jumppacks on heroes lmao


In 1v1 you have more operational freedom, sure that he can get into favourable engagements better. And I never said, that he is only an shitty support character; the customized stormbolter is good and the anointed poweraxe also, that s why I didn t list them.

Why can t I ask for an jumppack?
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby PianoMan » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 3:29 pm

read your first post pls
what will a jump pack give you? answer that and you should have the answer on why you can't just give it to everything
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 6:14 pm

PianoMan wrote:read your first post pls
what will a jump pack give you? answer that and you should have the answer on why you can't just give it to everything


+20 energy and an jumpabillity with knockback ? What s so bad about it?

And what do you mean with "give it to everything"??
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby PianoMan » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 7:04 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
PianoMan wrote:read your first post pls
what will a jump pack give you? answer that and you should have the answer on why you can't just give it to everything


+20 energy and an jumpabillity with knockback ? What s so bad about it?

And what do you mean with "give it to everything"??

too much mobility and if it had knockback stacked on all the other shit you have it would be just too much

jump pack and apo simply don't go together, you might as well want pdevs to have it :l xd
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 7:16 pm

PianoMan wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:
PianoMan wrote:read your first post pls
what will a jump pack give you? answer that and you should have the answer on why you can't just give it to everything


+20 energy and an jumpabillity with knockback ? What s so bad about it?

And what do you mean with "give it to everything"??

too much mobility and if it had knockback stacked on all the other shit you have it would be just too much

jump pack and apo simply don't go together, you might as well want pdevs to have it :l xd


yeah, more mobilty for less support. So what?

You can only access armor abilites as support then, which require lots of energy, which u don t have, because u ghave an jumppack.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Atlas » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 7:40 pm

I do think we can work on his melee builds a bit. The bolter is just soooo dominant.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Psycho » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 7:53 pm

Who'd have thought the wargear that lets him stay at range would be the most popular with the hero you don't want getting damaged
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby PianoMan » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 8:05 pm

Atlas wrote:I do think we can work on his melee builds a bit. The bolter is just soooo dominant.

maybe in 3v3s, apo's wargear is fine dont change it
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 8:07 pm

PianoMan wrote:
Atlas wrote:I do think we can work on his melee builds a bit. The bolter is just soooo dominant.

maybe in 3v3s, apo's wargear is fine dont change it


Superb argument.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 8:26 pm

Purification Vials is hard to hit and Purification Rites isn't very useful. Those are the main problems with Apo wargear.

Maybe add 100 health to RItes and lower the throwing animation of Vials to a normal grenade. Less damage also on Vials since it can be landed more easily.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 8:41 pm

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Purification Vials is hard to hit and Purification Rites isn't very useful. Those are the main problems with Apo wargear.

Maybe add 100 health to RItes and lower the throwing animation of Vials to a normal grenade. Less damage also on Vials since it can be landed more easily.


That would make rites copy of gaydar rites.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby egewithin » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 8:52 pm

Why are we even changing Apo? All of these arguments are like ''This wargear is nice, I like it, but it would be better if we change it like this, bla bla bla...'' Guess what? If you change every fucking wargear in the game in a positive way, all wargears would become better. Mind blown right? Not all wargears are expected to be useful in every possible scenerio. Its gonna piss Piano off but I agree with him at this point. Apo is fine, he doesn't need any changes.

-Sanguine chainsword --- ''yet it´s just an decent survival tool beyond T1. That´s a bit less'' Duuuuuhhh! That sword is meant to keep Apo alive in melee fights, not to solo everything or making him immortal.

-Armor of purity --- ''The CD on the heal is nice, but it does not make that much difference in an heated engagement; 16ish seconds are still a long time'' Apo already provides a moving health regen aura, so basicially a moving fucking base without the reinforce thing. And to be really honest, that is a whole design flaw by itself but we will discuss it later. Apo's heal aura is already strong enough, and you are not counting the potential if you combine him with IG, Okrs, Nids and stuff. He should't be able to keep using his heal ability again and again in the same fight, no mater what level he is.

-Combat stims --- ''the ability is great, the extra hp is nice, yet it´s a bit...simple.'' Yeah, I just can't wait to see you play Lord General and ask things about his wargear.

-Purification rites --- Why on earth do you want to buff this wargear? Start playing IG and you gonna complain about ''What about Catachans are having a buff on their shotgun blast to deal with terminators?'' This question doesn't seem too far away for you to ask.

And omfg, did you SERIOUSLY ask for a jumppack on Apo?!!
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby egewithin » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 8:59 pm

If we really want to discuss Apo melee, all I can ask for is to move that Power Axe from T2 to T1.

- It is a very basic power weapon, not even worth to remember in T2.
- There isn't a single reason to keep this basic 50 dps power weapon in T2 since it doesn't provide any super special awsome effect that would ruin T1.
- Nobody gets this weapon because nobody need a basic thing like this in T2. You don't see people buy Power Sword on FC or Plague Sword of PC in T2.

Seriously, why is this weapon even in T2? It was a mistake in the first place.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 9:11 pm

egewithin wrote:If we really want to discuss Apo melee, all I can ask for is to move that Power Axe from T2 to T1.

- It is a very basic power weapon, not even worth to remember in T2.
- There isn't a single reason to keep this basic 50 dps power weapon in T2 since it doesn't provide any super special awsome effect that would ruin T1.
- Nobody gets this weapon because nobody need a basic thing like this in T2. You don't see people buy Power Sword on FC or Plague Sword of PC in T2.

Seriously, why is this weapon even in T2? It was a mistake in the first place.


Because it drains power?
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby egewithin » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 9:16 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:Because it drains power?


Wow, yeah, that would totally ruin T1! OMG! You know, the same thing thing that Merciless Bitchblade does. You know, a weapon that people don't complain about. And don't bring the cost difference, or I will bring the damage and that awsome special attack, which are totally worth the prize even without the energy drain on it.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 9:20 pm

egewithin wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:Because it drains power?


Wow, yeah, that would totally ruin T1! OMG! You know, the same thing thing that Merciless Bitchblade does. You know, a weapon that people don't complain about. And don't bring the cost difference, or I will bring the damage and that awsome special attack, which are totally worth the prize even without the energy drain on it.


Duh, let s look for an way to improve it first
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby egewithin » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 9:24 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:Duh, let s look for an way to improve it first


I would say lets look for some reasons to change something in a way. Your arguments are like ''Welp this weapon is cool, but it would be cooler if it did that!'' No wonder you asked for a fucking jumppack on Apo. :D
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TE | NoSkill
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 9:56 pm

egewithin wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:Duh, let s look for an way to improve it first


I would say lets look for some reasons to change something in a way. Your arguments are like ''Welp this weapon is cool, but it would be cooler if it did that!'' No wonder you asked for a fucking jumppack on Apo. :D


I did not ask for buffs for anointed poweraxe, because it´s good enough, yet nobody goes melee with apo, coz too risky.

And what s so bad about an jumppack??
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 10:09 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Purification Vials is hard to hit and Purification Rites isn't very useful. Those are the main problems with Apo wargear.

Maybe add 100 health to RItes and lower the throwing animation of Vials to a normal grenade. Less damage also on Vials since it can be landed more easily.


That would make rites copy of gaydar rites.


Meant giving the Apo 100 health for buying it. Not 100 healing for using it.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby PianoMan » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 10:14 pm

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Purification Vials is hard to hit and Purification Rites isn't very useful. Those are the main problems with Apo wargear.

Maybe add 100 health to RItes and lower the throwing animation of Vials to a normal grenade. Less damage also on Vials since it can be landed more easily.

rites aren't very useful?
https://dawnofwar.info/esl/match/34598315 nid player literally can't do shit because of rites, same thing happens in chaos vs apo match ups and the wargear helps a lot against eldar/catachans and orky melee stuff
vials aren't hard to hit if you combo it with something, they're just niche

@noskill i think you should be able to beat low level players before making such threads
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Cheekie Monkie » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 10:23 pm

Lore wise, I'm disappointed that no SM hero has the jump pack option, it makes so much more sense than teleporting in power armour. Balance wise, ehhh...

Axe is the go to option if you 1) want to upgrade your hero to fighting and healing condition on the cheap and 2) prefer an aggressive playstyle with forward shotguns/ASM/librarian with a generous helping of globals, but don't expect the first company to arrive any time soon.

Rites is fine as is due to its cheap cost and the fact that it increases the Apo's survivability tenfold vs melee, not to mention the rest of your army. If you think it's underwhelming, fine but then it also needs to increase in power.

Sanguine has always been iffy - it was either OP or underwhelming. A minor buff such as a permanent +20 energy +0.5 movespeed would be nice, but a redesign should also be considered.

Melee apo used to be much more deadlier i.e. high risk high reward when Larraman's revived you on the spot, not at base. Of course, it also made killing ranged apo so much harder too :D

P.S. An interesting, though not necessary idea would be to give him an 'offense only' jump pack i.e. a jump pack which only functions when you click at an enemy squad (not friendlies or power nodes). I think it's implementable and is something which isn't yet seen in the game - again I reiterate that this is just tossing ideas into the wind.
Last edited by Cheekie Monkie on Tue 10 Jul, 2018 10:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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