rangers xd

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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rangers xd

Postby PianoMan » Sat 02 Jun, 2018 4:23 pm

change back to old rangers or some shit cus at this point you could give eldar 2 free power farms at the start of the game and it wouldn't be so fucking dumb
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Black Relic » Sat 02 Jun, 2018 4:45 pm

Imma tell you right now that you need to elaborate on your issue with something. And the either ask for a way to deal with the problem or give a good suggestion on how to tackle the situation you are dealing with. If you believe the rangers are not performing well you need to say how they are not e.t.c.
Because as it stands i have no idea what your concern on the unit is.
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Re: rangers xd

Postby egewithin » Sat 02 Jun, 2018 4:55 pm

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Re: rangers xd

Postby Swift » Sat 02 Jun, 2018 4:59 pm

I'd start a counter for all your silly posts but thankfully there's one underneath your name already.
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Oddnerd » Sat 02 Jun, 2018 9:34 pm

He is on to something - multiple rangers is pretty cancerous in the right hands.
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Crewfinity » Sat 02 Jun, 2018 10:05 pm

+1 to that... Rangers are definitely overperforming for 20 power.

Kinetic strike is wayyyy too good with the pathfinder upgrade as well.

As it is, they bleed/disrupt quite effectively, and are almost impossible to counter. You cant bleed them because they see you coming from 70 units away, have infiltration as well as fleet. And getting multiple rangers isnt as easy to punish as it used to be, because they're cheaper. especially vs SM it just feels unfair to get 2 or 3 rangers. there's just nothing they can do at all :P
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Re: rangers xd

Postby SarDauk » Sat 02 Jun, 2018 10:41 pm

Rangers are almost fine, you need them against faction like SM since DA are smacked at range and bleed you a lot, in addition they bleed easily since they have one of the lowest pool of HP especially against jump troops. They lack some alpha to without kinetic pulse.

But I agree that double rangers can be really almost impossible to deal with, so mb an increase of req cost ?
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Black Relic » Wed 06 Jun, 2018 5:38 am

Their cost is pretty low. Never noticed that tbh since i dont play Elite much. This could be increased.

I believe their cost was decreased alot due to the fact that they fall off horrendously after mid t2.

Perhaps to increases their performance allow them to auto infiltrate if they stand still long enough so long as its t2 and they have the pathfinder gear on? But make sure their cost gets reverted and the Kinetic pulse is fixed.

I still think they should have "mines" to give vision in t3. Because then late game you can always watch the enemy so long as you are diligent with the rangers.
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Crewfinity » Wed 06 Jun, 2018 8:03 pm

Black Relic wrote:I believe their cost was decreased alot due to the fact that they fall off horrendously after mid t2.

I still think they should have "mines" to give vision in t3. Because then late game you can always watch the enemy so long as you are diligent with the rangers.


They already have 70 sight range.... as long as you are diligent with them you already can constantly watch the enemy. This is also why they dont need any additional scaling - the long vision range acts as a force multiplier for all of their long range damage dealers like dark reapers, fire prisms, D-cannon, etc
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Kvn » Wed 06 Jun, 2018 8:35 pm

Crewfinity wrote:They already have 70 sight range....


60.
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Crewfinity » Wed 06 Jun, 2018 9:30 pm

derp thanks for the correction :P

still the longest sight on any unit but not sure where i got that number from...
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Antandron » Tue 19 Jun, 2018 9:21 am

Their range is also obscene:

Scout Snipers: 55
Vindicare: 55
Rangers: 65

Confirmed Cancer.
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Kvn » Tue 19 Jun, 2018 3:37 pm

Antandron wrote:Their range is also obscene:

Scout Snipers: 55
Vindicare: 55
Rangers: 65

Confirmed Cancer.


Scout Sniper damage per shot: 90

Vindicare damage per shot: 130

Ranger damage per shot: 60 (or 80 with upgrade)

+

Scout Sniper: Optional side-grade on a T1 utility unit

Vindicare: T2 elite assassin with the option of boosting his range by 10 for 20 seconds, revealing targets fired upon, and switching to anti-vehicle damage

Rangers: T1 dedicated sniper unit, and the only detector in the Eldar roster

It's almost like different units from different factions are designed differently. Crazy, right?
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Black Relic » Tue 19 Jun, 2018 4:26 pm

Kvn wrote:
Antandron wrote:Their range is also obscene:

Scout Snipers: 55
Vindicare: 55
Rangers: 65

Confirmed Cancer.


Scout Sniper damage per shot: 90

Vindicare damage per shot: 130

Ranger damage per shot: 60 (or 80 with upgrade)

+

Scout Sniper: Optional side-grade on a T1 utility unit

Vindicare: T2 elite assassin with the option of boosting his range by 10 for 20 seconds, revealing targets fired upon, and switching to anti-vehicle damage

Rangers: T1 dedicated sniper unit, and the only detector in the Eldar roster

It's almost like different units from different factions are designed differently. Crazy, right?


Sounds like based for rangers if you put Rangers are Eldar only has one detector unit when pretty much all races except ork and tyranids are the same. SM only has scout when upgrade to serg, Chaos only has the AC tics, The Guard has catachans.

Rangers detect further away making tactics that use infiltration nearly impossible and due to range and sight radius sometimes hard to punish especially due to their cost. Their keen sight and sight radius is their only thing that scale in tiers and that is still a shit design to have something that they have in t1 scale to t3 even if it is as simple as sight and keen sight. They do have KP but it falls of slightly after mid t2, still helps them be an anti melee squad when doubled up due to suppression they can do.

Scouts, more of a map control unit/skirmisher. Can be outfitted to help in army clashes though with shotgun blast and frag grenade but to have both cost a fair amount of resources. Detection but short range of 25. Can still be avoided. Anti-melee unit, only detector in Space Marine Roster

AC tics. Imo should be on a different unit but there are no other options for Chaos atm. Same short range, They can worship and AC brings so much to Heretics already. Detection is just a bonus, but since heretics are dangerous they are always a target through the entire game from t1 to t3. Anti-melee unit via doomblast until grenade launchers are purchased. Only detector in the Chaos Roster. Detection radius can be avoided.

Catachans. Enough said. Anti-melee unit, nearly required in all match ups based on their versatility and control they offer, only detector unit in IG roster without using an ability. Detection Radius can be avoided.

Warriors, because why not, they already buff your entire army. might as well make your army hard to use sneaky tactics on a bit. Detection Radius can be avoided. Not Anti-melee but can maybe be considered a good supporting melee squad with the passive leap.

Shoota nob. No brainer, pretty much required when the squad is on the field. More damage ( f*** ton), bleed less, and detection is also just a bonus on a squad that is also anti-melee with Aiming whats that.



Yes all are different based on what their race needs. But Rangers atm are the worst units to play against and with since it feels like you are not even playing. One squad purchase and you completely nullify a certain type a play, harass model and bleed the enemy where you have no chance of being punished and can help set up kills or stop melee squad with KP. Yes rangers are fine. I dont care about the damage. I care about the sight radius, keensight and their ridiculous cost. Acting like the unit is fine is a far cry from fair treatment to all races and unbiased opinion toward Eldar.

Again, Lower Sight and Keen sight radius and increase the initial cost of rangers. That is it. Keep their range. If a unit is spotting for them thats fine. Them spotting for themselves is not.

However i would increase all snipers: Increase damage to near vanilla amounts (105 for scouts, Vindicator can stay the same, Ranger increased to 90), set up time would go up slightly but teardown increase dramatically. Like ALOT to allow for counter play and but reward a player that positions their sniper to where he doesn't need to be moved and is allowed the space to put out dps uninterrupted.
"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54
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Re: rangers xd

Postby HansMoleman » Tue 19 Jun, 2018 4:47 pm

Sentinel detects
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Antandron » Tue 19 Jun, 2018 5:22 pm

Kvn wrote:
Antandron wrote:Their range is also obscene:

Scout Snipers: 55
Vindicare: 55
Rangers: 65

Confirmed Cancer.


Scout Sniper damage per shot: 90

Vindicare damage per shot: 130

Ranger damage per shot: 60 (or 80 with upgrade)

+

Scout Sniper: Optional side-grade on a T1 utility unit

Vindicare: T2 elite assassin with the option of boosting his range by 10 for 20 seconds, revealing targets fired upon, and switching to anti-vehicle damage

Rangers: T1 dedicated sniper unit, and the only detector in the Eldar roster

It's almost like different units from different factions are designed differently. Crazy, right?


What makes Rangers so special that they merit range 65? And the detection range 40 I did not know about until now. I am sure they really need the extra 10 compared to Tics, Catachans, Scout Sargeants, Warriors, etc., etc.. Poor poor Eldar need all the help they can get.

Those damage numbers are misleading because Rangers do more DPS with the upgrade than Scout Snipers (see below).

Antandron´s Theorem:
If unit A is OK, and unit B is similar to unit A and OP in relation to it, then unit B is OP more often than not.
If unit A is OK, and unit B is similar to unit A and UP in relation to it, then unit B is UP more often than not.

Hypotheses:
Scout Snipers are OK. Rangers are similar and OP in relation to scout snipers. Rangers are OP. (consensus agreement)
Razorback is OK. Falcon is similar and OP in relation to Razorback. Falcon is OP. (consensus agreement)
Las Pred is OK. Leman is OP in relation to Las Pred. Leman is OP. (disputed)

Currently:
Snipers + Infiltration Upgrade: 350/40. 13.85dps. Infiltration. Repair. +1.5e/s and +1.5hp/s out of combat. Range 55. 9 pop.
Rangers + Pathfinder Gear: 285/40. 16dps*. Infiltration. Holofield. Fleet of Foot. Kinetic Pulse with splash damage. Range 65. Detection range 40. 6 pop.
*Could be 15dps, the Codex gives two different numbers.
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Kvn » Tue 19 Jun, 2018 7:15 pm

Black Relic wrote:Sounds like based for rangers if you put Rangers are Eldar only has one detector unit when pretty much all races except ork and tyranids are the same. SM only has scout when upgrade to serg, Chaos only has the AC tics, The Guard has catachans.


The reason I pointed out Rangers being the only detectors Eldar has is because they're a dedicated squad. If the enemy gets an infiltrator, most other factions will either buy an upgrade on one of their existing units (SM, Orks, Chaos) or have a choice in their options (soft counter Sentinel or hard counter Catachans for IG). Tyranids are similar, but they have the benefit of Warriors' utility, support, and the availability of the Lictor in the late game. Meanwhile, late game detection for Eldar is still Rangers, who will pretty much die to a stray volley at that point with high-tier units and leveled squads running around.

Black Relic wrote:Their keen sight and sight radius is their only thing that scale in tiers and that is still a shit design to have something that they have in t1 scale to t3 even if it is as simple as sight and keen sight. They do have KP but it falls of slightly after mid t2, still helps them be an anti melee squad when doubled up due to suppression they can do.


...So you're saying that Rangers should not be allowed to scale at all...? Well, they don't really. Sight alone is generally not useful enough to warrant buying a new squad, paying upkeep, keeping it under constant micro seeing as it is vulnerable enough to die the moment something starts to shoot at it, and generally taking away resources that could be put into something that has a larger impact on the battlefield. But hey, I've done and redone this argument a thousand times in the past, so I understand it's pointless to do it again. Let us agree to disagree on that point.

For the record, there are plenty of T1 units that scale. I'm not sure why you think Rangers would be unique in that aspect, especially since their scaling is exclusive to their sight range.

Black Relic wrote:Scouts, more of a map control unit/skirmisher. Can be outfitted to help in army clashes though with shotgun blast and frag grenade but to have both cost a fair amount of resources. Detection but short range of 25. Can still be avoided. Anti-melee unit, only detector in Space Marine Roster


The reason I labeled Scouts as a utility unit was because they can fill a lot of different roles. They are primarily a skirmish unit, but in the early game they can provide infiltration play, ambushes with grenades, melee control, harassment, map control, and a long range option in the form of the sniper upgrade.

I'm not sure why you went into such great detail spelling out the roles of the other detectors, because I wasn't disputing them. Literally all I was doing with my last post was pointing out the flaw in logic to label Rangers as "confirmed cancer" just because they have 10 more range than the other two sniper units without looking at the other aspects of said units.

Black Relic wrote: But Rangers atm are the worst units to play against and with since it feels like you are not even playing. One squad purchase and you completely nullify a certain type a play, harass model and bleed the enemy where you have no chance of being punished and can help set up kills or stop melee squad with KP. Yes rangers are fine. I dont care about the damage. I care about the sight radius, keensight and their ridiculous cost. Acting like the unit is fine is a far cry from fair treatment to all races and unbiased opinion toward Eldar.


Harassment units in general are never fun to play against. That's an unfortunate side effect of their design. Nobody is going to be overjoyed when their setup team gets shotgun-blasted into a grenade by a pair of Scouts out of infiltration. Rangers have already been beaten down with a series of heavy nerfs to their killing power. By this point, all they really do is detect and knock stuff over.

Black Relic wrote:Again, Lower Sight and Keen sight radius and increase the initial cost of rangers. That is it. Keep their range. If a unit is spotting for them thats fine. Them spotting for themselves is not.


One thing I would like to point out is that most of the other detectors are frontline units, with the exception of Scouts, Kommandos, and the LIctor. As I recall, the whole point of Rangers having that extended detection range was so that they could actually function as detectors since they're going to be kept away from the fighting most of the time.

Black Relic wrote:However i would increase all snipers: Increase damage to near vanilla amounts (105 for scouts, Vindicator can stay the same, Ranger increased to 90), set up time would go up slightly but teardown increase dramatically. Like ALOT to allow for counter play and but reward a player that positions their sniper to where he doesn't need to be moved and is allowed the space to put out dps uninterrupted.


Personally, I think that sounds like a very cool idea. I would love for sniper play to feel like snipers again. Not sure what anyone else thinks though, and my experience with bringing up damage buffs to sniper units is that people really don't want it.
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Kvn » Tue 19 Jun, 2018 7:23 pm

Antandron wrote:What makes Rangers so special that they merit range 65?


So that they can have some actual benefit maybe, and not just be a copy paste?

Antandron wrote:And the detection range 40 I did not know about until now. I am sure they really need the extra 10 compared to Tics, Catachans, Scout Sargeants, Warriors, etc., etc.. Poor poor Eldar need all the help they can get.


Read my above post. There is an actual reason behind it. Or their was. Not sure if people care about that anymore or not.

Antandron wrote:Those damage numbers are misleading because Rangers do more DPS with the upgrade than Scout Snipers (see below).


Funny thing about sniper dps. It is almost never accurate since a sniper is not designed to sit there and shoot continuously. Back when Rangers first had their damage halved and their fire rate doubled, Ranger use dropped off enormously despite their overall dps being the same.

Antandron wrote:Antandron´s Theorem:
If unit A is OK, and unit B is similar to unit A and OP in relation to it, then unit B is OP more often than not.
If unit A is OK, and unit B is similar to unit A and UP in relation to it, then unit B is UP more often than not.

Hypotheses:
Scout Snipers are OK. Rangers are similar and OP in relation to scout snipers. Rangers are OP. (consensus agreement)
Razorback is OK. Falcon is similar and OP in relation to Razorback. Falcon is OP. (consensus agreement)
Las Pred is OK. Leman is OP in relation to Las Pred. Leman is OP. (disputed)


Except that right now your only real hypothesis seems to be that "if Rangers have something the other snipers don't that makes them cancer" without looking at what the other sniper units have going for them.

Antandron wrote:Currently:
Snipers + Infiltration Upgrade: 350/40. 13.85dps. Infiltration. Repair. +1.5e/s and +1.5hp/s out of combat. Range 55. 9 pop.
Rangers + Pathfinder Gear: 285/40. 16dps*. Infiltration. Holofield. Fleet of Foot. Kinetic Pulse with splash damage. Range 65. Detection range 40. 6 pop.
*Could be 15dps, the Codex gives two different numbers.


Yes. And Scout Snipers are an optional side-grade. You can also choose to buy shotguns, or leave them without. Meanwhile, Rangers will never be anything but snipers, regardless of whether you actually want them to be. That utility, in addition to what you've pointed out (repair, high hp regen, and the option for things like grenades are no small benefit after all) helps Scouts in a big way. Saying that Rangers are incredibly powerful based on a 10 range advantage is very disingenuous.
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Torpid » Tue 19 Jun, 2018 7:24 pm

The difference in sight range is key to rangers being very powerful snipers. SM snipers are far less independent because they cannot see as far as their max range allows them to shoot. It's like a-moving P devs. Makes them way less effective if you use them like that.

Still comparing scout snipers and rangers is really pointless. Compositions are so different. The fact that scouts can be all tanky, infiltrating, high dps at close range, with grenades and kb on demand OR a sniper unit OR just a cheap capping unit is a big deal. That flexibility is precisely what makes the SM t1 hard to deal with. If scout snipers were an entirely different unit they would be a lot weaker. Then SM get the tanky ASM in their t1 when eldar has nothing comparable.

That aside I think it's pretty obvious that rangers are OP at the moment. Quite heavily so. Their damage is too high for their intending purpose not as dedicated model snipers but as support units. That was why they became so cheap, not to make them cheaper but roughly do the same obnoxious job as before of sniping everything down. We changed that because it was toxic gameplay that nobody enjoyed. They're still doing it with the upgrade. The upgrade is definitely where the problem is at.

The damage boost is too high and probably mostly unnecessary. Half it. Kinetic pulse doing splash damage is entirely unnecessary especially alongside the dramatic CD reduction and e/s regen buff that the upgrade gives. Remove the damage on kinetic pulse AND nerf the energy regen buff.

https://www.dawnofwar.info/esl/match/34293890

The above game is a good example of them and their OP.
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 19 Jun, 2018 7:27 pm

I would say a single ranger squad isn't even that OP - I can usually deal with an Eldar comp that has 1... they become an abomination when you get these cunts who build as many as 4 of them.
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Antandron » Tue 19 Jun, 2018 8:36 pm

Kvn wrote:
Antandron wrote:What makes Rangers so special that they merit range 65?


So that they can have some actual benefit maybe, and not just be a copy paste?


They would still function at range 55 and half the roster of every race is a copy and paste of something else with a few minor adjustments. See Tacs, CSM, SS and Pred, Looted Tank, CSM Pred. Weapon ranges are usually similar (Tacs 38, CSM 38, DA 38, Shootas 38, Hormas 38, GM 38, SS 38) because fucking around with these numbers adds nothing to the game while risking annoying imbalances such as being shot at from out of the fog of war over and over and over again.

Kvn wrote:
Antandron wrote:And the detection range 40 I did not know about until now. I am sure they really need the extra 10 compared to Tics, Catachans, Scout Sargeants, Warriors, etc., etc.. Poor poor Eldar need all the help they can get.


Read my above post. There is an actual reason behind it. Or their was. Not sure if people care about that anymore or not.


There has to be a reason for it but is it a very good reason? There should be a precautionary principle for stuff like this that means if it ain´t broke, don´t fix it. Detection range 30 would be acceptable for Rangers and no-one would even notice. So would range 55. No-one would be complaining and Rangers would still not be close to a copy and paste of Scout Snipers.

Kvn wrote:
Antandron wrote:Antandron´s Theorem:
If unit A is OK, and unit B is similar to unit A and OP in relation to it, then unit B is OP more often than not.
If unit A is OK, and unit B is similar to unit A and UP in relation to it, then unit B is UP more often than not.

Hypotheses:
Scout Snipers are OK. Rangers are similar and OP in relation to scout snipers. Rangers are OP. (consensus agreement)
Razorback is OK. Falcon is similar and OP in relation to Razorback. Falcon is OP. (consensus agreement)
Las Pred is OK. Leman is OP in relation to Las Pred. Leman is OP. (disputed)


Except that right now your only real hypothesis seems to be that "if Rangers have something the other snipers don't that makes them cancer" without looking at what the other sniper units have going for them.


Not true. If it looks like cancer, smells like cancer, costs like cancer and plays like cancer, it is probably cancer.

Kvn wrote:
Antandron wrote:Currently:
Snipers + Infiltration Upgrade: 350/40. 13.85dps. Infiltration. Repair. +1.5e/s and +1.5hp/s out of combat. Range 55. 9 pop.
Rangers + Pathfinder Gear: 285/40. 16dps*. Infiltration. Holofield. Fleet of Foot. Kinetic Pulse with splash damage. Range 65. Detection range 40. 6 pop.
*Could be 15dps, the Codex gives two different numbers.


Yes. And Scout Snipers are an optional side-grade. You can also choose to buy shotguns, or leave them without. Meanwhile, Rangers will never be anything but snipers, regardless of whether you actually want them to be. That utility, in addition to what you've pointed out (repair, high hp regen, and the option for things like grenades are no small benefit after all) helps Scouts in a big way. Saying that Rangers are incredibly powerful based on a 10 range advantage is very disingenuous.


It is obviously not only the range 65.
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Devon » Tue 19 Jun, 2018 9:38 pm

Idk wtf r u guys smoking. Clearly, Tyranids are most OP faction. :lol: :lol:
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Kvn » Tue 19 Jun, 2018 10:15 pm

Antandron wrote:They would still function at range 55 and half the roster of every race is a copy and paste of something else with a few minor adjustments. See Tacs, CSM, SS and Pred, Looted Tank, CSM Pred. Weapon ranges are usually similar (Tacs 38, CSM 38, DA 38, Shootas 38, Hormas 38, GM 38, SS 38) because fucking around with these numbers adds nothing to the game while risking annoying imbalances such as being shot at from out of the fog of war over and over and over again.


Considering the differences between those units (remember back when there would be people claiming CSM and Tacs should have identical stats?) you seem to be ignoring the point. In addition to that, I would like to reiterate that Rangers are a dedicated sniper unit, not an optional upgrade on a starting squad. They need to have *something* to let them try to function, and seeing as they deal a fair bit less damage per shot, a slight range advantage over other sniper units isn't unreasonable.

Antandron wrote:There has to be a reason for it but is it a very good reason? There should be a precautionary principle for stuff like this that means if it ain´t broke, don´t fix it. Detection range 30 would be acceptable for Rangers and no-one would even notice. So would range 55. No-one would be complaining and Rangers would still not be close to a copy and paste of Scout Snipers.


Instead of making vague accusations, how about you read the post I pointed out, okay? You'd see the answer to this already.

Antandron wrote:Not true. If it looks like cancer, smells like cancer, costs like cancer and plays like cancer, it is probably cancer.


Funny thing about statements like that. All too often they translate to "if I don't like it, it's cancer" rather than "if it's factually broken, it's cancer."

Antandron wrote:It is obviously not only the range 65.


Antandron wrote:Their range is also obscene:

Scout Snipers: 55
Vindicare: 55
Rangers: 65

Confirmed Cancer.


You didn't exactly leave a lot of room for interpretation on that front.
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Atlas » Tue 19 Jun, 2018 10:19 pm

We're nerfing rangers in 2.8 as this has come up like 4 to 5 times now with the same comments. Exactly how much is being debated by the team, but all the proposals we've gotten both outside and inside have been pretty similar and targeted the same things.
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 19 Jun, 2018 10:21 pm

Kvn wrote:The reason I pointed out Rangers being the only detectors Eldar has is because they're a dedicated squad. If the enemy gets an infiltrator, most other factions will either buy an upgrade on one of their existing units (SM, Orks, Chaos) or have a choice in their options (soft counter Sentinel orhard counter Catachans for IG). Tyranids are similar, but they have the benefit of Warriors' utility, support, and the availability of the Lictor in the late game. Meanwhile, late game detection for Eldar is still Rangers, who will pretty much die to a stray volley at that point with high-tier units and leveled squads running around.
They are not soley a dedicated detector squad. They do so much freaking mor already explained above. They amplify your force by spotting everything, doing peel damage, able to infiltrate your entire army, able to knockback units to set up whatever you want and do a shitton of damage in the meantime. They do not die do a stray volley -.- , L2 use rangers, cuz they are OP.

Kvn wrote:...So you're saying that Rangers should not be allowed to scale at all...? Well, they don't really. Sight alone is generally not useful enough to warrant buying a new squad, paying upkeep, keeping it under constant micro seeing as it is vulnerable enough to die the moment something starts to shoot at it, and generally taking away resources that could be put into something that has a larger impact on the battlefield. But hey, I've done and redone this argument a thousand times in the past, so I understand it's pointless to do it again. Let us agree to disagree on that point.

For the record, there are plenty of T1 units that scale. I'm not sure why you think Rangers would be unique in that aspect, especially since their scaling is exclusive to their sight range.
They don't scale? They are useful in any stage of the game. Sigh alone is already useful enough for such a fucking bargain cost! But not only do you get godlike sight, you also get so many other things already stated before.
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Black Relic » Tue 19 Jun, 2018 11:18 pm

Kvn wrote:
Black Relic wrote:Their keen sight and sight radius is their only thing that scale in tiers and that is still a shit design to have something that they have in t1 scale to t3 even if it is as simple as sight and keen sight. They do have KP but it falls of slightly after mid t2, still helps them be an anti melee squad when doubled up due to suppression they can do.


...So you're saying that Rangers should not be allowed to scale at all...? Well, they don't really. Sight alone is generally not useful enough to warrant buying a new squad, paying upkeep, keeping it under constant micro seeing as it is vulnerable enough to die the moment something starts to shoot at it, and generally taking away resources that could be put into something that has a larger impact on the battlefield. But hey, I've done and redone this argument a thousand times in the past, so I understand it's pointless to do it again. Let us agree to disagree on that point.

For the record, there are plenty of T1 units that scale. I'm not sure why you think Rangers would be unique in that aspect, especially since their scaling is exclusive to their sight range.


I must have worded it badly, but what I meant that the only thing that scale for ranger is their sight and keen sight. And since those are the only things that do scale and not really the unit itself in its designed role equals the unit is designed poorly.

I know that most T1 scale (although leveling benefits is a big reason as to why t1 squad scale pretty well) and rangers should do the same.


I will mention my "design" for rangers that would scale imo better although the sniper change i mentioned earlier would have to go into effect to make this work really well, or this will be OP vs High hp, low model count races and worthless vs low hp, high model count races.

Rangers keensight radius would be lowered to 30 (maybe 35 is also a good number.)

Sight radius Lowered to 55.

Kinetic Pulse is a target ground ability. A well timed and a enemy player who blobs up allows the KP to hit multiple squad with ease. The Damage is removed.

Long Rifles doing courage damage removed

When the Rangers have the pathfinder gear upgrade they gain access to a "beacon". Thius beacon stay infiltrated and can emit a sight radius of 20 (or 25 since 20 is actually reeaaaaally small). It doesnt do damage but if placed in the right places you can see the enemies army and the direction they are coming from. This can be detected. Their large a fuck sight radius is lowered but they scale even better late game by continuously putting down these beacons thought the game. Energy cost would be fairly high at 70 and the cooldown time to use the beacon would be 60 and the build time being 8-10 seconds. They scale better later in the game imo since most players wont have time to look for these "beacons"

I do want them to have an upgrade in t3 that allows KP to shoot a projectile and similarly to how the blastmaster works, Knocksback everything in its path that is an enemy. Still No damage. The Upgrade would allow rangers to auto infiltrate when standing still, similarly to catachans.
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Kvn » Tue 19 Jun, 2018 11:52 pm

Black Relic wrote:I must have worded it badly, but what I meant that the only thing that scale for ranger is their sight and keen sight. And since those are the only things that do scale and not really the unit itself in its designed role equals the unit is designed poorly.

I know that most T1 scale (although leveling benefits is a big reason as to why t1 squad scale pretty well) and rangers should do the same.


Ah. My mistake then. I guess I misinterpreted what you were saying.

Black Relic wrote:I will mention my "design" for rangers that would scale imo better although the sniper change i mentioned earlier would have to go into effect to make this work really well, or this will be OP vs High hp, low model count races and worthless vs low hp, high model count races.

Rangers keensight radius would be lowered to 30 (maybe 35 is also a good number.)

Sight radius Lowered to 55.

Kinetic Pulse is a target ground ability. A well timed and a enemy player who blobs up allows the KP to hit multiple squad with ease. The Damage is removed.

Long Rifles doing courage damage removed

When the Rangers have the pathfinder gear upgrade they gain access to a "beacon". Thius beacon stay infiltrated and can emit a sight radius of 20 (or 25 since 20 is actually reeaaaaally small). It doesnt do damage but if placed in the right places you can see the enemies army and the direction they are coming from. This can be detected. Their large a fuck sight radius is lowered but they scale even better late game by continuously putting down these beacons thought the game. Energy cost would be fairly high at 70 and the cooldown time to use the beacon would be 60 and the build time being 8-10 seconds. They scale better later in the game imo since most players wont have time to look for these "beacons"

I do want them to have an upgrade in t3 that allows KP to shoot a projectile and similarly to how the blastmaster works, Knocksback everything in its path that is an enemy. Still No damage. The Upgrade would allow rangers to auto infiltrate when standing still, similarly to catachans.


By this point, I genuinely just want them to be useful for something again. No idea whether these changes would be a positive or negative thing (personally, I'd definitely like the late-game upgrades and stuff given how useless they are post T1.5) but yeah. The detection tax has been a very unfun thing to deal with for a long time now.
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Antandron » Wed 20 Jun, 2018 8:41 am

Kvn wrote:
Black Relic wrote:Again, Lower Sight and Keen sight radius and increase the initial cost of rangers. That is it. Keep their range. If a unit is spotting for them thats fine. Them spotting for themselves is not.


One thing I would like to point out is that most of the other detectors are frontline units, with the exception of Scouts, Kommandos, and the LIctor. As I recall, the whole point of Rangers having that extended detection range was so that they could actually function as detectors since they're going to be kept away from the fighting most of the time.


That makes sense to me.

"Detection Tax" as you say is a problem and could be solved by allowing weak detection for DAs via an upgrade. So either Aspect of Avenger or Aspect of Detection (approximately 75/15, detection 20 but no energy shield, FoF, additional health, grenades). Then no "detection tax" for Rangers.
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Re: rangers xd

Postby SarDauk » Wed 20 Jun, 2018 1:32 pm

What about giving them 3 rifles in T2/T3 ? Would help them scaling and grant some dps for the late game.
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Re: rangers xd

Postby Black Relic » Wed 20 Jun, 2018 9:42 pm

Because then it would be the worst thing ever to play against with how our sniper units are designed.

People should be able to punish Rangers. With an upgrade like that you guarantee huge amounts of bleed on your enemy with only one squad that you purchase instead of having to invest more resources, population and upkeep in order to do that. Its the reason why people don;t like rangers atm.

They cost so little in pop and initial cost that Eldar can easily field two (you really dont need the pathfinder gear for both imo) and you harrass your enemy without having too much worry of being punished since if you lose a model on your snipers you really dont have to reinforce them, saving you even further on pop and upkeep.

Having rangers be abble to have 3 rifles would make players want to have all models but then you have a squad of rangers doing the damage of three and with pathfinder gear they would automatically suppress their target. Rangers would be purchased more frequently in t3 but would be completely unfun to play against. IMO it would make people just outright ban eldar from playing in their games.
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