Space marine balance + ideas

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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TE | NoSkill
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Space marine balance + ideas

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 08 May, 2018 7:18 pm

Scouts melee damage: is pathetic. Scouts in their vanilla state are an really bad unit and require upgrades to work in an army.
Which is not how they worked in TT (hit as hard as marines but less tougher), nor in the fluff nor should upgrades be needed for them to fight properly.

I can understand, why their ranged damage is not as high as as tac ( would be obnoxious to fight an kiting scout blob), but their melee damage beeing only 4 is really bad and does not even allow them to combat enemy ranged squads effectively.

Suggestion: Increase Melee damage per hit to 12. The attack intervall should be increased tho

Terminator weapons options

Assault cannon is seen seldom in 3v3, flamers nearly never.
Which is sad, that these 2 options don t seem to have enough utility.

Suggestion: Give the "barrage"-ability to the assault cannon
let the damage on "cleansing flame" be melta. The ability would then need to be toned down of course, something like 15 melta dmg for 20 seconds

Terminator force commander could use n Thunderhammer and assault shield item to go full on single target anti armor.

Dreadnaught could use an lascannon upgrade
Last edited by TE | NoSkill on Wed 09 May, 2018 9:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Slaaneshi Cacophony » Tue 08 May, 2018 8:13 pm

You tried
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Antandron » Tue 08 May, 2018 8:20 pm

Because I believe that unit comparisons are a valid approach, 12 melee dps for scouts is unreasonable in comparison to the 2 melee dps of GM, or the 6+2/3 dps of DA, or the 8 melee dps of Sluggas. Something like 6 dps would be ok but it is not something that really matters.

A Lascannon upgrade on a Dreadnought would be so powerful that it would need to be priced like two multi-meltas. It is also completely unnecessary.
Last edited by Antandron on Tue 08 May, 2018 8:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Ayy Eye » Tue 08 May, 2018 8:31 pm

Scouts with 50 heavy melee dps per model please.
I'm a girrrrlllll gamer.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Antandron » Tue 08 May, 2018 8:36 pm

Ayy Eye wrote:Scouts with 50 heavy melee dps per model please.


At least the OP was sincere and not a facetious shitpost.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 08 May, 2018 8:55 pm

Antandron wrote:Because I believe that unit comparisons are a valid approach, 12 melee dps for scouts is unreasonable in comparison to the 2 melee dps of GM, or the 6+2/3 dps of DA, or the 8 melee dps of Sluggas. Something like 6 dps would be ok but it is not something that really matters.

A Lascannon upgrade on a Dreadnought would be so powerful that it would need to be priced like two multi-meltas. It is also completely unnecessary.


My suggestion was 12 dmg per hit not 12 dps.

Why would a dreadnaught lascannon be so bad?
The LoS would still be required, the dreadnaught would still be suceptable to melee squads and the lascannon wouldn t be as useful against infantry.

Perhaps even have it as T3 upgrade, if it is that bad.

Besides, what do you think about the Terminator changes?
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 08 May, 2018 8:56 pm

Ayy Eye wrote:Scouts with 50 heavy melee dps per model please.


Cegorach must be proud of you
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby boss » Tue 08 May, 2018 9:20 pm

Befoe I even say anything do you even play elite mod NOSKILL??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Crewfinity » Tue 08 May, 2018 9:22 pm

Staaaaaahp with these threads. Melta damage on terminator flamers are you insane?!

"Hmmm this weapon already melts armies of infantry, it should melt vehicles too"

JFC just please stop submitting these half baked ideas and spend more time learning how to utilize these units. You arw not following any of the guidelines that Codez laid out in how to submit a well written and reasoned balanve proposal - this sounds like you watched a couple of replays and read some black library novels and thats what you're basing all of this off of.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 08 May, 2018 9:29 pm

Crewfinity wrote:Staaaaaahp with these threads. Melta damage on terminator flamers are you insane?!

"Hmmm this weapon already melts armies of infantry, it should melt vehicles too"

JFC just please stop submitting these half baked ideas and spend more time learning how to utilize these units. You arw not following any of the guidelines that Codez laid out in how to submit a well written and reasoned balanve proposal - this sounds like you watched a couple of replays and read some black library novels and thats what you're basing all of this off of.


Can t you read!!?
I said "cleansing flame" ABILITY should do melta damage to increase the usefulness of heavy flamer choice.
Right now, there is none lategame in 3v3 !

And what s this "stop with half baked ideas"?

Ideas don t come perfectly up and need to be moulded through discussion into the right form.
Last edited by TE | NoSkill on Tue 08 May, 2018 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 08 May, 2018 9:30 pm

boss wrote:Befoe I even say anything do you even play elite mod NOSKILL??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


~500 h since 2.42 and constantly watching indrid
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Crewfinity » Tue 08 May, 2018 9:33 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
Crewfinity wrote:
"Hmmm this weapon already melts armies of infantry, it should melt vehicles too"

Can t you read!!?
I said "cleansing flame" ABILITY should do melta damage to increase the usefulness of heavy flamer choice.
Right now, there is none lategame in 3v3 !



Yes, i understand you are talking about their ABILITY which melts whole infantry armies. Why exactly does it make sense that flamers should melt vehicles too? It would be horrendously OP on that unit and makes absolutely no sense at all that flamers would do melta damage (which is reserved for melta weapons). If you want T3 AV get a damn laspred.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Cyris » Tue 08 May, 2018 9:36 pm

Crew, are you drunk, using shitty auto correct, high, or all three <3

But seriously NoSkill, you are doing that dangerous combination of putting forward half-baked ideas from a very biased standpoint then fighting tooth and nail against very reasonable voices who are trying to correct you. Read the guide Crew is talking about (https://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewto ... f=3&t=2099) and try to assume that some people talking here know a lot more then you do on these subjects.


Triple melee damage scouts would turn a couple of matchup into near auto-wins for SM btw (I'm thinking IG and eldar). Making flamer termies this good in 3v3 would break them beyond reckoning in 1v1.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Crewfinity » Tue 08 May, 2018 9:41 pm

Cyris wrote:Crew, are you drunk, using shitty auto correct, high, or all three <3


Hahaha just fat fingers on a mobile phone XD

+1 on the scouts thing, they're already an amazing unit that scales extremely powerfully.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Cyris » Tue 08 May, 2018 9:44 pm

Next time post high and drunk too.

The mental image of tripple scout tying up tripple GM in melee and feeling models off left and right is pretty amusing though. Add on Shotties and it'd be just hilarious! Scouts karatay chawps are fun animations I'll admit...
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Cyris » Tue 08 May, 2018 9:48 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:My suggestion was 12 dmg per hit not 12 dps.


This is rhetorical, but you do know that Scouts attack once per second, so 12 damage per hit means 12 dps, which is TRIPLE their current dps and damage per hit of 4, right?
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Swift » Tue 08 May, 2018 9:49 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:-


Look mate I have nothing personal against you but I want to recommend that you spend some time familiarising yourself with the game and seek some tips from some of the more skilled players.

Your first thread about Chaos I brushed off because basically everyone does the same and gets shouted down for suggesting stuff and it can be really annoying if you think your ideas have merit. But, the game isn't designed in a way where we can just add stuff and expect it to work, because there are so many factors to consider (including that the changes you're proposing would actually break things).

Don't be disheartened, but don't take it personally either. Play some more, contribute when you can, you can only learn through trial and error.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 08 May, 2018 9:54 pm

Swift wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:-


Look mate I have nothing personal against you but I want to recommend that you spend some time familiarising yourself with the game and seek some tips from some of the more skilled players.

Your first thread about Chaos I brushed off because basically everyone does the same and gets shouted down for suggesting stuff and it can be really annoying if you think your ideas have merit. But, the game isn't designed in a way where we can just add stuff and expect it to work, because there are so many factors to consider (including that the changes you're proposing would actually break things).

Don't be disheartened, but don't take it personally either. Play some more, contribute when you can, you can only learn through trial and error.


If I familiarize more, that would be incest.
Nobody (should) exspect his suggestions to be perfect hits. That s why they can be discussed here, can t they?

And don t worry, I am already hardened by the DoW III forums for this job ;)
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby The Licking Boogyman » Tue 08 May, 2018 10:17 pm

First IG threads about nerfing them to the ground and now sm thread about termies with melta flamer. I mean atleast it's funny i guess. \(•_•)/
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 08 May, 2018 10:21 pm

The Licking Boogyman wrote:First IG threads about nerfing them to the ground and now sm thread about termies with melta flamer. I mean atleast it's funny i guess. \(•_•)/


The fkng ABILITY should do melta dmg! Otherwise the flamers existance in 3v3 is questionable.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Swift » Tue 08 May, 2018 10:26 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:If I familiarize more, that would be incest.
Nobody (should) exspect his suggestions to be perfect hits. That s why they can be discussed here, can t they?

And don t worry, I am already hardened by the DoW III forums for this job ;)

Well, I think it's worth appreciating that you're probably not nearly as practiced as you think you are. I saw you said you had 300h with Chaos in 3v3s, which is really not a great indicator of much at all except a (relatively) short playtime. It's easy to assume that when you have a few hundred hours you are in a good position to know the game well enough to make changes - I did the same, and I realised a long time ago I did not know how to balance this game.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby The Licking Boogyman » Tue 08 May, 2018 10:31 pm

The fkng ABILITY should do melta dmg! Otherwise the flamers existance in 3v3 is questionable.


Too bad the game is balanced around 1v1s, not 3v3s.
The flamers ability is strong af vs blobbing infantry units and can some what damage vehicles with they're powerfist while tanking alot of damage + don't forget they're hp regen they have rn.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Antandron » Tue 08 May, 2018 10:32 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:Why would a dreadnaught lascannon be so bad? The LoS would still be required, the dreadnaught would still be suceptable to melee squads and the lascannon wouldn t be as useful against infantry.

Perhaps even have it as T3 upgrade, if it is that bad.

Besides, what do you think about the Terminator changes?


The difficulty with a Las Dread is that a. no-one knows if it would work, b. it would require time and skill to create a new model and c. it is not required since LasDevs exists. Putting a Las Dread into the game could cause a massive imbalance and a lot of annoyance, then would need a few weeks to hotfix. Is it worth the risk? Probably not.

I don´t have an opinion on Terminator weapons.

TFC could have the ability to level, at the same or better rate as the CL (who is also eqipped with Terminator armour iirc and is not considered imbalanced). Priced like the Teleporter (100/40) + Fist (175/50) - Flesh Over Steel (50/15?) = 225/75 ish + whatever the extra HP is worth. But then I can´t understand why players would not buy existing upgrades that are more suitable to whatever the MU was, so it is difficult to judge how to make this work.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 08 May, 2018 10:34 pm

The Licking Boogyman wrote:
The fkng ABILITY should do melta dmg! Otherwise the flamers existance in 3v3 is questionable.


Too bad the game is balanced around 1v1s, not 3v3s.
The flamers ability is strong af vs blobbing infantry units and can some what damage vehicles with they're powerfist while tanking alot of damage + don't forget they're hp regen they have rn.


Would that greatly change something in 1v1 ?
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby The Licking Boogyman » Tue 08 May, 2018 10:35 pm

It would make flamer termies gud vs literally anything and they would need to cost as much as 2 baneblades.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 08 May, 2018 10:42 pm

Antandron wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:Why would a dreadnaught lascannon be so bad? The LoS would still be required, the dreadnaught would still be suceptable to melee squads and the lascannon wouldn t be as useful against infantry.

Perhaps even have it as T3 upgrade, if it is that bad.

Besides, what do you think about the Terminator changes?


The difficulty with a Las Dread is that a. no-one knows if it would work, b. it would require time and skill to create a new model and c. it is not required since LasDevs exists. Putting a Las Dread into the game could cause a massive imbalance and a lot of annoyance, then would need a few weeks to hotfix. Is it worth the risk? Probably not.

I don´t have an opinion on Terminator weapons.

TFC could have the ability to level, at the same or better rate as the CL (who is also eqipped with Terminator armour iirc and is not considered imbalanced). Priced like the Teleporter (100/40) + Fist (175/50) - Flesh Over Steel (50/15?) = 225/75 ish + whatever the extra HP is worth. But then I can´t understand why players would not buy existing upgrades that are more suitable to whatever the MU was, so it is difficult to judge how to make this work.


Well, status quo is also not healthy and ideas are there to be told.
Variety keeps an game interesting which in turn keeps an game living.

Swift wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:If I familiarize more, that would be incest.
Nobody (should) exspect his suggestions to be perfect hits. That s why they can be discussed here, can t they?

And don t worry, I am already hardened by the DoW III forums for this job ;)

Well, I think it's worth appreciating that you're probably not nearly as practiced as you think you are. I saw you said you had 300h with Chaos in 3v3s, which is really not a great indicator of much at all except a (relatively) short playtime. It's easy to assume that when you have a few hundred hours you are in a good position to know the game well enough to make changes - I did the same, and I realised a long time ago I did not know how to balance this game.


That s why I discuss proposals ;).
I know, how complicated balance can be ( I am active on the TWW forums since fall 2016) and small steps are always better.( which can be annoying at times ofc)

Since a game requires a bit more tho to be alive, I also made proposals for a bit more
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Black Relic » Wed 09 May, 2018 3:01 pm

The only thing that should happen to the terminator flamer is rework its dependence on the ability. Since even the ability is crap without control since the moment the enemy gets it you already should be wary of the ability and understand when the enemy intends to do with the terminators. If it melts someones entire army then that is your fault.

Make the ability with DoT that starts of crap but quickly gets strong over time and increases the Aoe of the basic attack the heavy flamer. But that is pretty much the only other option for the weapon. Adding melta damage to the ability would make the war gear option too versatile and give no reason to get the cyclone missile launcher.

Assault Cannon. The Weapon is underwhelming. Its bad in every match up except a few Ork builds and maybe some Eldar builds. You vs IG? Cyclone or the flamer. Chaos? Don't bother with terminators imo but if you want them, the cyclone missile launcher, (flamer if you hate gens). Tyranids? Flamer would be best imo. They have no really slow move units to make the barrage work well against, or just dont get terminators. SM? Missile Launcher to move the setp up teams and damage tanks.

I Could be enlighten about the AC though.

As many people know piercing damage sucks in t3. The assault cannon does suppress a unit the the suppression kicks in far too late. The only suggestion i have to the assault cannon is to lower the reload time by 1.5 and increases the reload frequency to 8-10, to make sure that if you do somehow get the suppression off from the weapon that single units stay suppressed until the terminator squad get tied up.

Dreadnought having a lascannon. You are a mad man. You want AV, get the multi melta. One thing you must keep in mind when introducing something is to see if that option would make another irrelevant. Which in this case the lascannon would outshine the multa melta in every why except damage.

The Terminator FC should get a hammer. But the terminator FC needs to go down in HP first and his fucking armor type needs to be Super heavy infantry armor. Lower his Hp pool to 2000 or perhaps a tiny bit lower (if i see someone suggest 1500 hp imma smack them). There is enough plasma and damage types other than piecing out there by t3 and if there is not, it should be "GG L2P" by then anyway. (increase the price too though). All the Hammer should do is lower incoming range damage by 5% and increase hp regen by 2. That is it. Then piercing damage from a single t1 squad will be completely irrelevant and wont move his HP pool at all.

To be completely honest though he wont need the Thunder Hammer and storm shield at all if he does join the SHI club (which his HP would need to go down just not 1500 HP or even 1750 HP). He would just look cool.

But that does lead me to a suggestion or question... the blood crusher has an ability the make enemy units run in fear. Would people hate the idea of giving a similar ability to all commanders that affect their own units. Sort of like having a hot key that forces your own units to split of without have to move each one separately. Putting this on all commanders with make their own infantry to already start to move away from him. Would make it easier for new and veteran players to dodge AoE spells. Up to yall though.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby egewithin » Wed 09 May, 2018 5:01 pm

There are 2 reasons why people don't get HF on Termies. One of them is the range problem, second is the lack of need. People love HF with Termie FC, because they can teleport, use it, and retreat. Range problem solved. See? HF is good and everybody loves it, people just can't risk their termies to get too close. Second is the need. Proboby HF is worth only against Tyranid army, and can still be effective in late game.

The real question is, should we even bother make a change about that? I see HF as one of odd weapons that should be used in odd situations, and I am fine with that. It might be a rare choice, but its still there. Powerblades of WS, Bionic Eye of LC, Icon of Tzeentch of SC, Bioplasma, etc are also rare, but they are still fine.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby egewithin » Wed 09 May, 2018 5:37 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:Right now, there is none lategame in 3v3 !


And why is that even a problem? Its like saying '' Hey, fix Angel Gate, I can't use my tanks! '' Well, then don't use tanks there. Or '' Nerf lascannons, I can't use my Dread when there are 10 of them. '' There is a difference between being useless / broken and being situational / rare.

---------

Just putting this out there, in case you want to fix(?) / rework Termie HF, I have an idea or a referance to start with.

Remove Clansing Flames ability. HF is already strong by it self. Insted, change it with '' Long Fire '' ability. Yeah, I saw this name on Space Hulk Game. It increases the range of HF (still shorter than Storm Bolters) but decreases the dps by 70%, which is like 13,2 dps, slightly less than Tac Flamer at lvl 1. Remember that everything levels up in late game so even 13,2 might not be good enough, but it is a start.

Or, I don't know if this is possible, but we can increase the range of HF, but now it acts like set up weapons. Closer you get, the more damage you take. Its only matter of max and min damage values.

Still, I am fine with default HF.

---------

About AC, there is a disturbance about it. Specially fighting against nids, it takes down one model too fast, but then it stops firing and now you have to wait for like 5 seconds before the new shot. It does a lot of damage, but not practical.

I support Black Relics idea, even if it is different than what I just put here. :D Reload time of AC is annoying. Not a big deal, but still...
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Ace of Swords » Wed 09 May, 2018 5:39 pm

Termies perform fine in their vanilla state, the assault cannon is a rape machine against low models high HP squads and heroes, the heavy flamer is amazing on bottleneck maps like angel's gate where all 3 opposite players are forced to blob their late game infantry into tight corridors, the fact that you guys don't know this after playing the game for 5 years amazes me, in that latter case the heavy flamer literally deletes entire armies.

I say this once more and make it your fucking mantra from now on:

Not every unit and wargear must be viable in 100% of the cases, this is a strategical and tactical game you have to recognize when you have the opportunity to make something work and when it can give you back it's investments at it's best and more, YOU as the player have to know when to do what, this is the objective of elite, to give a space and place to everything but not to make everything always usable, otherwise this game would become a braindead thing where whatever you do works, if you make good decisions you are rewarded, if you make bad decisions you are punished, it's simple as that.
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