Chaos faction balance; weaker options

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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TE | NoSkill
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Chaos faction balance; weaker options

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 6:42 pm

So I noticed that, despite the chaos faction theme having individually strong, offense oriented units, there are some, that don t perform in the prolonged game/utility is bad.

Aspiring Champions: These guys have the same health for marginally more damage over an SM seargents. However, the base health of the squad is already lower, which makes the unit they are in quiet glass cannony.
Which makes sense, as these are whelps with inferior equipment and probably geneseed then the loyalists, but aspiring champions are normally tougher/ more experienced.
The squads they lead have an already lower base health then compareable units and drop much faster.
An champion is an big investment, considering the CSM squad does not scale well, so a bit more cost efficiency would do good


Suggestions: +50 hp

Chaos Space Marines: Honestly, the utility of this unit lays only in Mark of Tzeentch. Don t have access to AP-weaponry nor utility upgrades.

Mark of Khorne grants aspiring Champion heavy melee or should make him do at least MORE damage.

Chaos Lord: Does not have an heavy melee weapon, which limits him A LOT and makes him less effective against all targets then the plague champion.
Also Blood maul is an rather weak weapon choice;
Slow attack animation on an slow character, normal damage and nothing special like FC thunderhammer knockback chance

Suggestions; Make the "Blood Maul" do heavy melee, the ability "demonic visage" should be decreasd in cost OR be applied for ranged AND melee hits

Raptors: They aren t as tanky as the the ASM and don t hold as much utility, so they want to be comitted well. (As an Night Lord lover) they also don t have dem sneaky tactics and cannot be used for terror tactics (which they normally do, considering they prey on the weak).
There are enough all-in units in the Chaos roster already, so buffing their melee performance would make them not more special and even op

Suggestions: Raptors can infiltrate in cover


Some ideas flavour additions;

Dreadnaught: "Eternal war veteran" , T3-upgrade grants +20% health and stoicism, if mortally wounded,
what about an sonic blaster upgrade for dread?
Last edited by TE | NoSkill on Wed 09 May, 2018 7:24 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby egewithin » Mon 07 May, 2018 7:17 pm

I got this, don't worry

1-) Aspiring Champions are just a great buff for your squad. Insted of getting more units, you are just getting a small upgrade. You have no idea how it effects their performance, specially wih their marks. Also, Slaugter ability it totally worth gettinc AC on CSM.

2-) Melee skill buff is unnecessery, and would break games balance. First of all, MoK CSM are not a melee brawler units like Sluggaz or Banshees. They are shocktroops to tie up ranged squads, like ASM. If you want a melee brawler, Chaos has a lot of units for that. And since KCSM already has more melee skill than pretty much any ranged squads in the game, they are fine.

3-) Not all heroes need an AV weapon. CL is already powerful enough by himself.

4-) Yes, they are not as durable as ASM, bu they do more damage, and have a better squad leader, which can take down vehicles! Just like all SM units Chaos variants, they do more damage but less durable.

Maybe we can put a pin on that infiltration thing on this list. But other than that, a huge nope I'm afraid.

Edit : Detection on Predator? Why not? :D
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby boss » Mon 07 May, 2018 7:18 pm

I take one look at this and want to pull out my eyes I just don't know what to say.................
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 7:26 pm

Why?
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby OceansAteAlaska » Mon 07 May, 2018 7:26 pm

Lmao while we're at it:

Buff PC to 1000hp and give plague Fist flesh over Steel ability thx

Also Teleporter which increases health by another 200hp
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 7:29 pm

O cmon, it can t be so bad!
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby TharxGamma » Mon 07 May, 2018 7:30 pm

Here we go again boys! History repeats itself.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby Kvn » Mon 07 May, 2018 7:38 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:O cmon, it can t be so bad!


In all fairness, those are some very big buffs you're suggesting. Especially the last two.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby Swift » Mon 07 May, 2018 7:46 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:O cmon, it can t be so bad!

What they're all impolitely trying to say is that Chaos are quite a good and fairly well positioned faction right now, and don't really need any changes. A lot of what you've said about Chaos so far is comparing them to their SM counterparts, and both factions have their own unique advantages over the other.

Personally I'd dispute what you say, since while more niche, units like MoK CSM are quite potent. They work well against pretty much every ranged unit due to their speed and large health pool and are great vs units like ASM who can't compete with their power melee. TCSM are good in 3v3s more simply because they're not as risky, but KCSM are still good.

I think the champions are also fine given that they still benefit from eternal war, slaughter or your mark. Raptors are similarly alright, not the punchiest unit in the game but their disruption is pretty great plus a power fist.

Chaos Lord is one of the scariest melee heroes anyway, he tears through infantry when kitted out right and his lack of heavy melee is the thing that keeps him from being a one man army anyway.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Mon 07 May, 2018 7:53 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:So I noticed that, despite the chaos faction theme having individually strong, offense oriented units, there are some, that don t perform in the prolonged game/utility is bad.

Aspiring Champions: These guys have the same health for marginally more damage over an SM seargents. However, the base health of the squad is already lower, which makes the unit they are in quiet glass cannony.
Which makes sense, as these are whelps with inferior equipment and probably geneseed then the loyalists, but aspiring champions are normally tougher/ more experienced.

Fluff is never a good basis for balance or any SM hero would wipe the floor with entire armies. Terminators even more so.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Suggestions: CSM champion +50 hp, Raptor champion +75 hp

Chaos Space Marines: Honestly, the utility of this unit lays only in Mark of Tzeentch. Don t have access to AP-weaponry nor utility upgrades.

+5 melee skill, Mark of Khorne grants aspiring Champion heavy melee or should make him do at least MORE damage +5 melee skill

Have you ever even tried to use the Slaughter ability? It is very good. Try it first.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Chaos Lord: Does not have an heavy melee weapon, which limits him A LOT and makes him less effective against all targets then the plague champion.

Suggestions; Make the "Blood Maul" do heavy melee, the ability "demonic visage" could now give the Chaos Lord the "Instill fear"-debuff from the Chaos Terminators.

Chaos Lord does not need any heavy melee weapon that could threaten vehicles. He is way too slow to ever reach a vehicle. Chaos also already have tons of AV weaponry. Avail yourself of those first. Chaos Lord is by no means weak. At all.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Raptors: They aren t as tanky as the the ASM and don t hold as much utility, so they want to be comitted well. (As an Night Lord lover) they also don t have dem sneaky tactics and cannot be used for terror tactics (which they normally do, considering they prey on the weak).

Suggestions: Raptors can infiltrate in cover, Reduce their jump energy cost to 60

Just no. Raptors deal more damage and cost 10 power less than ASM. Their energy cost was already reduced which is really noticable because now you can not kite away from them anymore in T1 which really adds to the already relentless pressure that Chaos can bring in T1.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Some ideas flavour additions;
Dreadnaught: "Eternal war veteran" , T3-upgrade grants +20% health and stoicism, if mortally wounded.
Predator : "Heretecal improvements", T3 upgrade gives + 250 hp and gives it detector


The balance section is not a wishlist and should be used for balance issues only. Codex has laid out a very good post on how to write your balance post (reasoning, scenariors, etc).
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 7:58 pm

egewithin wrote:I got this, don't worry

1-) Aspiring Champions are just a great buff for your squad. Insted of getting more units, you are just getting a small upgrade. You have no idea how it effects their performance, specially wih their marks. Also, Slaugter ability it totally worth gettinc AC on CSM.

2-) Melee skill buff is unnecessery, and would break games balance. First of all, MoK CSM are not a melee brawler units like Sluggaz or Banshees. They are shocktroops to tie up ranged squads, like ASM. If you want a melee brawler, Chaos has a lot of units for that. And since KCSM already has more melee skill than pretty much any ranged squads in the game, they are fine.

3-) Not all heroes need an AV weapon. CL is already powerful enough by himself.

4-) Yes, they are not as durable as ASM, bu they do more damage, and have a better squad leader, which can take down vehicles! Just like all SM units Chaos variants, they do more damage but less durable.

Maybe we can put a pin on that infiltration thing on this list. But other than that, a huge nope I'm afraid.

Edit : Detection on Predator? Why not? :D


It is an bigger risk tho getting AC up, exspecially on CSM, because they are not so tanky and Chaos has only decent support at best, so playing offensively is a bit harder. Also the squad doesn t have an upgrade for which the AC could be needed. And slaughter is not usable anymore, if unit is marked. So they are somewhat useless in the lategame, can t even faster cap like tacs.
Having tougher AC´s would allow to play a bit more offensively while fit the theme of Chaos

Melee skill buff would set CSM apart and allow them to benefit more from melee combat for beeing
a) squishier
b) having higher melee damage

And regarding MoK; They are there to tie up ranged units and are no melee brawlers??? The Mark is effectively worse then slaughter! No higher melee skill nor damage output nor an bigger charge range!
It is more raptor style to attack weaker( ranged) targets, so why are MoK Marines regarded only as mop up unit?


Chaos Lord can scythe through infantry preatty well indeed, but not beeing able to threaten vehicles is a bit pathetic and leavs an big hole in the CSM roster. I mean, it makes the CL a lot less useful AND makes the weapon choices worse, for I only saw ppl get it for sweeping doom in case of massive blobz.
And I meant, that the "Instill fear" should happen on kill then.

Indeed AC on raptors can threaten vehicles. That takes a long enough time tho (except on manticores) and an player aware of his vehicles can doge them effectively. That is like saying Vanguard veterans don t need an powerfist, they already do enough damage.
And again as I said, it would fit the chaos theme; a few strong individuals (AC) followed by weaker ones. Would set the focus better on the indvidualistic style of chaos.

PS: Why have heretics 75 melee skill?
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby Kvn » Mon 07 May, 2018 8:01 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:PS: Why have heretics 75 melee skill?


Balance reasons to prevent Heretics from being insta-killed in the early game by Banshee/Slugga special attacks.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 8:06 pm

Kvn wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:O cmon, it can t be so bad!


In all fairness, those are some very big buffs you're suggesting. Especially the last two.


Raptors don t have the tankyness/ support ASM can get. A bit more utility seems appropriate, considering they are not made for brawls and prefer easier targets.

"Demonic visage" is just too generic in what it does and normally ppl shoot the CL to hell if he even tries to get into melee, so you don t get the hits in.

Chaos misses heavy melee infantry options and the "blood maul" is only useful for the sweeping doom. Giving it heavy melee would make it so much more useful and an actual threatening weapon.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Mon 07 May, 2018 8:10 pm

Heretics have 75 melee skill so they can not get specialed. Pretty cool, dont you think?

MoK CSM useless? How are they weak? They have an awesome melee charge, battle regen and awesome melee dmg. With the right support and or globals, they become deadly. Best thing to do in 1v1 for example is to get a Bloodcrusher out and then when the enemy goes for a Lascannon, you get MoK CSM. Leveled MoK CSM are no joke at all.

Are you forgetting that the AC on Heretics is also a detector?

If you are seriously struggling with AV as Chaos, then I suggest you reconsider your strategy/build-order. Chaos is one of the strongest factions when it comes to AV.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby Broodwich » Mon 07 May, 2018 8:19 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
Kvn wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:Chaos misses heavy melee infantry options and the "blood maul" is only useful for the sweeping doom. Giving it heavy melee would make it so much more useful and an actual threatening weapon.

100dps and stun a whole army aren't threatening?

Elite barance team, sm needs more buffs please since they can't do any of these thx
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 8:20 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Heretics have 75 melee skill so they can not get specialed. Pretty cool, dont you think?

MoK CSM useless? How are they weak? They have an awesome melee charge, battle regen and awesome melee dmg. With the right support and or globals, they become deadly. Best thing to do in 1v1 for example is to get a Bloodcrusher out and then when the enemy goes for a Lascannon, you get MoK CSM. Leveled MoK CSM are no joke at all.

Are you forgetting that the AC on Heretics is also a detector?

If you are seriously struggling with AV as Chaos, then I suggest you reconsider your strategy/build-order. Chaos is one of the strongest factions when it comes to AV.


Could it be, that you have had bad experiences with ppl using fluff reasons within their argumentation?

Besides that, the point is the relative utility they provide; They don t have any utility and scale bad with the games progression. Power melee with 60 melee skill and decenty hp is not good enough, consideirng the power you invest into them (50) and they trade bad with banshees unupgraded.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 8:34 pm

Broodwich wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:
Kvn wrote:

100dps and stun a whole army aren't threatening?

Elite barance team, sm needs more buffs please since they can't do any of these thx


150 damage normal melee damage on an slow attack weapon on an slow melee character?
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby Ace of Swords » Mon 07 May, 2018 8:35 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
Adeptus Noobus wrote:Heretics have 75 melee skill so they can not get specialed. Pretty cool, dont you think?

MoK CSM useless? How are they weak? They have an awesome melee charge, battle regen and awesome melee dmg. With the right support and or globals, they become deadly. Best thing to do in 1v1 for example is to get a Bloodcrusher out and then when the enemy goes for a Lascannon, you get MoK CSM. Leveled MoK CSM are no joke at all.

Are you forgetting that the AC on Heretics is also a detector?

If you are seriously struggling with AV as Chaos, then I suggest you reconsider your strategy/build-order. Chaos is one of the strongest factions when it comes to AV.


Could it be, that you have had bad experiences with ppl using fluff reasons within their argumentation?

Besides that, the point is the relative utility they provide; They don t have any utility and scale bad with the games progression. Power melee with 60 melee skill and decenty hp is not good enough, consideirng the power you invest into them (50) and they trade bad with banshees unupgraded.


MoK CSM aren't supposed to beat banshees, even though they do in most cases.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 8:38 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:
Adeptus Noobus wrote:Heretics have 75 melee skill so they can not get specialed. Pretty cool, dont you think?

MoK CSM useless? How are they weak? They have an awesome melee charge, battle regen and awesome melee dmg. With the right support and or globals, they become deadly. Best thing to do in 1v1 for example is to get a Bloodcrusher out and then when the enemy goes for a Lascannon, you get MoK CSM. Leveled MoK CSM are no joke at all.

Are you forgetting that the AC on Heretics is also a detector?

If you are seriously struggling with AV as Chaos, then I suggest you reconsider your strategy/build-order. Chaos is one of the strongest factions when it comes to AV.


Could it be, that you have had bad experiences with ppl using fluff reasons within their argumentation?

Besides that, the point is the relative utility they provide; They don t have any utility and scale bad with the games progression. Power melee with 60 melee skill and decenty hp is not good enough, consideirng the power you invest into them (50) and they trade bad with banshees unupgraded.


MoK CSM aren't supposed to beat banshees, even though they do in most cases.


I said, they trade badly for their cost AND don t have the utility for example of banshees
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby Kvn » Mon 07 May, 2018 8:43 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:I said, they trade badly for their cost AND don t have the utility for example of banshees


That goes without saying. They're an optional upgrade on a (probably leveled) general utility squad. They're not meant to be superior to dedicated melee troops the same way that a missile tac isn't meant to be a dedicated av weapon.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby Ace of Swords » Mon 07 May, 2018 8:45 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
Ace of Swords wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:
Could it be, that you have had bad experiences with ppl using fluff reasons within their argumentation?

Besides that, the point is the relative utility they provide; They don t have any utility and scale bad with the games progression. Power melee with 60 melee skill and decenty hp is not good enough, consideirng the power you invest into them (50) and they trade bad with banshees unupgraded.


MoK CSM aren't supposed to beat banshees, even though they do in most cases.


I said, they trade badly for their cost AND don t have the utility for example of banshees


Then why are you comparing 2 completely different units with different roles?
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 8:59 pm

Kvn wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:I said, they trade badly for their cost AND don t have the utility for example of banshees


That goes without saying. They're an optional upgrade on a (probably leveled) general utility squad. They're not meant to be superior to dedicated melee troops the same way that a missile tac isn't meant to be a dedicated av weapon.


That s why I said they are bad for their cost. You don t pay 50-65 power to get an decent melee squad. Not cheap enough to go masse, not good enough to keep them as proper melee unit.

On top of that, melee is more risky to commit.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 9:01 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:
Ace of Swords wrote:
MoK CSM aren't supposed to beat banshees, even though they do in most cases.


I said, they trade badly for their cost AND don t have the utility for example of banshees


Then why are you comparing 2 completely different units with different roles?


Banshees are T1 no power. Once CSM upgrade, they are also power melee shock troops
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby Kvn » Mon 07 May, 2018 9:05 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:Banshees are T1 no power. Once CSM upgrade, they are also power melee shock troops


CSM are also T1 no power. Once Banshees upgrade (which is mandatory for Banshees), they cost power as well. Khorne CSM are not, and I repeat not meant to be a melee superiority unit. They're a utility upgrade. Chaos already has Tics to control enemy melee, or Bloodletters for high dps killing potential. KCSM offer a sizable amount of power melee on a fast HI squad with the addition of soft av in the form of the Aspiring Champion's pistol.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby Ace of Swords » Mon 07 May, 2018 9:06 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
Ace of Swords wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:
I said, they trade badly for their cost AND don t have the utility for example of banshees


Then why are you comparing 2 completely different units with different roles?


Banshees are T1 no power. Once CSM upgrade, they are also power melee shock troops


Banshees cost roughly the same power wise to be effective, bleed way more, have no real ranged option and are purely a ambush/counter initiation unit, CSMs are a ranged squad that can be useful in it's own vanilla state and can later on specialize in dealing with HI/SHI or can be used as melee work horses as well as chasers with MoK and of course, CSM are much less expensive on the long run and feed less red and XP to your opponents.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 9:12 pm

Kvn wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:Banshees are T1 no power. Once CSM upgrade, they are also power melee shock troops


CSM are also T1 no power. Once Banshees upgrade (which is mandatory for Banshees), they cost power as well. Khorne CSM are not, and I repeat not meant to be a melee superiority unit. They're a utility upgrade. Chaos already has Tics to control enemy melee, or Bloodletters for high dps killing potential. KCSM offer a sizable amount of power melee on a fast HI squad with the addition of soft av in the form of the Aspiring Champion's pistol.


The ammount of utility Banshees get from aspect + exarch stands in no correlation to MoK CSM. But you described the problem that they have; no specialized enough to make an difference nor cheap/cost effective enough to be spammed. Demons are always better then MoK CSM, with woreship exspecially.
Raptors can jump and suppress on landing and have AC with an ability.
MoK CSM can do what?
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby Kvn » Mon 07 May, 2018 9:20 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:The ammount of utility Banshees get from aspect + exarch stands in no correlation to MoK CSM.


What Banshees get from their upgrades: Fleet of Foot, War Shout, and either soft av on their Exarch (aspect of strength) or the ability to leap over cover (aspect of fleetness)

What CSM get: Faster base movespeed, bonus health regen while in combat, power melee weapons (trading off their ranged weapons), soft av on Aspiring Champion

TE | NoSkill wrote:But you described the problem that they have; no specialized enough to make an difference nor cheap/cost effective enough to be spammed. Demons are always better then MoK CSM, with woreship exspecially.


You don't seem to be listening, so I'll say this again. That is the point. CSM are NOT a dedicated melee squad. They are an optional utility upgrade on a T1 generalist line infantry squad. You buy them if there is an opening. They are not as good as Bloodletters, but all you need to do to get them is upgrade your already existing CSM instead of buying an entirely new squad. You are vastly underestimating how useful that choice is.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Raptors can jump and suppress on landing and have AC with an ability.
MoK CSM can do what?


They get to choose if they want to be MoK or not. If the opening is there, they can upgrade and punish the opponent for not having enough melee control. if it isn't, they can upgrade MoT or stay unmarked and keep providing ranged support.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 9:30 pm

Kvn wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:The ammount of utility Banshees get from aspect + exarch stands in no correlation to MoK CSM.


What Banshees get from their upgrades: Fleet of Foot, War Shout, and either soft av on their Exarch (aspect of strength) or the ability to leap over cover (aspect of fleetness)

What CSM get: Faster base movespeed, bonus health regen while in combat, power melee weapons (trading off their ranged weapons), soft av on Aspiring Champion

TE | NoSkill wrote:But you described the problem that they have; no specialized enough to make an difference nor cheap/cost effective enough to be spammed. Demons are always better then MoK CSM, with woreship exspecially.


You don't seem to be listening, so I'll say this again. That is the point. CSM are NOT a dedicated melee squad. They are an optional utility upgrade on a T1 generalist line infantry squad. You buy them if there is an opening. They are not as good as Bloodletters, but all you need to do to get them is upgrade your already existing CSM instead of buying an entirely new squad. You are vastly underestimating how useful that choice is.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Raptors can jump and suppress on landing and have AC with an ability.
MoK CSM can do what?


They get to choose if they want to be MoK or not. If the opening is there, they can upgrade and punish the opponent for not having enough melee control. if it isn't, they can upgrade MoT or stay unmarked and keep providing ranged support.


Blood letters are even cheaper then MoK CSM with champion. The way you describe it lets them seem very situation dependant. After this situation vanished, the you sit their with an not cost efficient squad of decent melee infantry, that don t scale.

If they could at least change between MoK and MoT, that would make their situation acceptable, but as they cannot switch, they need to scale to justify the investment,
Kvn
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby Kvn » Mon 07 May, 2018 9:44 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:Blood letters are even cheaper then MoK CSM with champion.


Except that Bloodletters are a T2 unit... CSM come out in T1. They have an impact from the very start of the game. They get leveled in T1. Then you can upgrade them. That is the important thing. You are NOT buying a new CSM squad just for the sake of MoK. You will always have CSM to upgrade (unless you lost them/went for a very weird build order) so they become much easier to get out. You are spreading the cost over a period of time which is almost always preferable to dumping the upfront cost of a new squad. You don't seem to be understanding this point.

TE | NoSkill wrote:The way you describe it lets them seem very situation dependant. After this situation vanished, the you sit their with an not cost efficient squad of decent melee infantry, that don t scale.


Hmm... guess we'll need to heavily upgrade every av weapon in the game then since they no longer help you when the enemy vehicle is dead. Same for flamers, Dark Reapers, and half a dozen other units that lose relevance once their target niche is no longer open.

More realistically, that's not a bad thing in and of itself. If they countered everything, there'd be no point in buying anything else. You choose whether you want to build them, and whether or not the investment is worth it.

As for scaling, obviously they don't scale as well as MoT, but they are a much more aggressive purchase. They create/push an advantage when they come out and can seriously cripple the opponent when used well. MoT is the 'safer' choice while MoK is the higher-risk, higher-reward choice.

TE | NoSkill wrote:If they could at least change between MoK and MoT, that would make their situation acceptable, but as they cannot switch, they need to scale to justify the investment,


There are plenty of units that don't scale well when upgraded a certain way. Flamer Guardsmen in particular lose out on quite a bit of their late game potential. The point of getting the upgrade is to capitalize on the opening. It is, as I've said above, a much more aggressive tech path.
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Ayy Eye
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby Ayy Eye » Mon 07 May, 2018 9:44 pm

the point is that mok csm are very situation dependant, they're not meant to be an auto option against everything.
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