Tank Comparisons.

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Antandron
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Tank Comparisons.

Postby Antandron » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 9:10 am

It is time to stir the pot once more.

In an attempt to make a useful comparison possible I took the liberty of adding or subtracting the 100/30 +200hp armour upgrade that the SM, CSM and Looted Tank have available to make everything 1200hp. Then I added whatever upgrade was necessary to provide the best AV. The +/- symbol represents any factors that can´t be quantified easily and if anyone has more to add I can edit this post. I know there are a lot of other variables such as repair support, globals, synergies and so on, they can be added to the list when someone thinks of them.

Leman 575/135 + Vanquisher 140/25 = 715/160
1200hp, speed 6, range 55, 35.71dps explosive, 2x22.67dps heavy bolters, sight 40 (5), 18 pop
+ Crack GM repair support.

SM Predator 450/125 + 2.5 x Armour Upgrade 250/75 + Lascannon 100/35 = 800/235
1200hp, speed 7.25, range 44, 55dps AP, 2x22.67dps heavy bolters, sight 40 (5), 18pop
+ Blessings of the Omnissiah

Chaos Predator 450/125 + Mark of Tzeentch 100/35 + 2.5 x Armour Upgrade 250/75 = 800/235
1200hp, speed 7.25, range 44, 55dps AP, 2x22.67dps heavy bolters, sight 40 (5), 18 pop
+ Sorcerer teleport global

Fire Prism 450/135 + 3.5 x Armour Upgrade 350/115 = 800/250
1200hp, speed 6.75, range 65, 29dps AP, sight 40 (5), 15 pop.
+ weapon switching + knockback
+ guide worth about +30%dmg a quarter of the time = +2.5dps

Falcon 360/90 + 2 x Energy Field 200/60 = 760/210
1200hp, speed 7, 41dps piercing, 28dps Venom Cannon, sight 45(5), 12 pop.
+reinforce

Looted Tank 400/100 + 2.75 x Armour Uprade (275/82) = 775/182
1200hp, speed 7.25, range 44, 23.88dps explosive, 2x22.67dps heavy bolters, sight 40 (5), 15 pop.
+ Boomgun

Carnifex 600/150 + Venom Cannon 100/25 – 0.75 x Armour Upgrade 75/22 = 625/153
1200hp, speed 5.5, range 55, 50dps AP, sight 38 (5), 18 pop.
- no repair

Direct Comparisons:
SM Predator vs CSM Tzeentch Predator: identical
SM Predator vs Looted Tank: The Looted Tank lacks about 21 dps vs Vehicles but has explosive damage with radius 3 and the Boomgun ability. It is however 25/53 cheaper which seems reasonable.
SM Predator vs Leman Russ: Here the Leman lacks 1.25 speed and 10dps vs vehicles but compensates with +10 range. Maybe the advantage would go to the Predator a little bit but the cost difference is significant at 75/75. Does the +10 range and GM support compensate for the -20dps and speed difference?
Leman Russ vs Fire Prism: Fire Prism advantage is +10 range, +0.75 speed with -17dps for an additional cost of 85/90. A vanilla Fire Prism is +10 range, +0.75 speed, -17dps and -700hp(!) for 165/25 cheaper. Because of the 55 range on the Vanquisher, the main advantage of the Fire Prism is somewhat negated.
Leman Russ vs Venom Cannon Carnifex: only -0.5 speed with +4dps, identical range and 90/7 cheaper. And the Leman can be repaired while the Carnifex has to be healed (not sure if this is an advantage or not).
SM or CSM Predator vs Venom Cannon Carnifex: +1.75 speed, +5dps and -11 range for +175/83. I don´t know how to account for the lack of repair of a Carnifex.

note: can a mod please delete my other thread titled "Leman Russ".
edit: GM Crack Repair is worth a -10dps to the opposition since the first unit heals at 20hp/s instead of 10hp/s.
edit: Falcon added.
Last edited by Antandron on Wed 11 Apr, 2018 9:35 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby OceansAteAlaska » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 11:52 am

Ok
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Ayy Eye » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 12:00 pm

I feel like you're missing the main point of tanks being different due to factions having different play styles and so strengths and weaknesses.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Antandron » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 12:25 pm

Ayy Eye wrote:I feel like you're missing the main point of tanks being different due to factions having different play styles and so strengths and weaknesses.


I somewhat understand all that but it is often used as an excuse for anything. There is one playstyle that works every game and that is to kill stuff and not get killed. To do this one needs, broadly speaking, the ability to soak or avoid damage while inflicting it. HP and armour to soak damage, Speed to avoid damage, Range and DPS to deal damage. As for snares and slows, they all cost req/power and can be included in a more in-depth analysis if anyone cares to do so. The Fire Prism is excellent at preventing caps and decaps while providing decent AInf when needed, which makes it somewhat unsuitable for comparison with AV tanks, but I included it anyway.

And btw I deliberately tried to avoid making value-judgments about the OP or UPness any of the units.
Last edited by Antandron on Wed 11 Apr, 2018 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Ayy Eye » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 12:39 pm

You're also not doing anything to point out what the other options these factions have instead of just spamming tanks in t3, since that'll also change the role and use of tanks.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Antandron » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 1:13 pm

Ayy Eye wrote:You're also not doing anything to point out what the other options these factions have instead of just spamming tanks in t3, since that'll also change the role and use of tanks.


Well I am not prepared to write a thesis on Elite Mod matchups but I will try one example and you tell me where I went wrong.

T3 with no significant number of vehicles up to now.
IG buy a Leman Russ and support it with a unit of GM. 575/135
Eldar buy a Fire Prism and support it with a unit of DA. 450/135 (I assume GM and DA cancel out)
IG upgrade Leman with a Vanquisher Cannon. 140/25
Eldar +265/25 and have a problem of only +10 range on a 500hp tank. How can Eldar make up this disadvantage with the 265/25 available? If the Fire Prism kites away it can´t fire and the Leman will soak the 29dps from the Fire Prism while blasting away at everthing else. WS grenade snare is cancelled by ST melta bomb so what else is there that I am forgetting? ST come with Infiltration and Melta for 320/0+75/15=405/15 while the WS+Haywire is 440/40+50/20 =490/60 and we all know that stealth melta is the death knell for Fire Prisms unless guarded by Rangers.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 1:42 pm

The part where you admitted that Fire Prism has 10 more range 8-)
You are also not looking at how heroes change the outcome of this fight. Guide e.g. is free and adds dmg AND range. All you need is sight.

Being able to peck away from long-range is not something to be brushed over but a genuine mega bonus. If you also don't micro with your dick, you are more than half way through winning a tank fight. The rest is determined by how good you and your opponent support their respective tank.
Storms don't get canceled by Warpspiders because with the req/power difference in that "counter-purchase-scenario" you can easily fit in Rangers which COMPLETELY negate any Stormtrooper play. There you now have superior sight, superior detection, long-range kb, aoe infiltration.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 3:54 pm

The fire prism should not even be in this comparison. It's a different class of vehicle in the way it is used. It should be classified more like vehicle artillery. You'd be better off measuring the shield falcon against the other tanks.

Does the +10 range and GM support compensate for the -20dps and speed difference?


Hell yes. Don't forget bunkers either. When you are in one of those typical late game static firefights over a VP the extra range and the sustainability from superior repair means time is on your side - this puts the pressure on your opponent to step out of his side of the line and try to attack you.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Atlas » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 5:23 pm

An interesting point of reference. What sort of conclusions do people draw from this? The general vibe I've gotten in the thread so far talks about a lot of things that could be added to the data, but nothing about the judgment of the data itself.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Crewfinity » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 5:31 pm

Looted tank should get boomgun back by default :)


Tanks feel fine at the moment. Nothing too OP, nothing lagging behind, either by general in-game feel and on paper. I like the recent leman russ changes a lot.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Psycho » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 6:25 pm

No executioners mentioned? Man, you don't know fun till you end up with triple executioners in a 3v3 vs a team that didn't invest in enough AV. It even has a tendency to get rear armor hits from the front.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Antandron » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 9:59 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:The part where you admitted that Fire Prism has 10 more range 8-)
You are also not looking at how heroes change the outcome of this fight. Guide e.g. is free and adds dmg AND range. All you need is sight.

Being able to peck away from long-range is not something to be brushed over but a genuine mega bonus. If you also don't micro with your dick, you are more than half way through winning a tank fight. The rest is determined by how good you and your opponent support their respective tank.
Storms don't get canceled by Warpspiders because with the req/power difference in that "counter-purchase-scenario" you can easily fit in Rangers which COMPLETELY negate any Stormtrooper play. There you now have superior sight, superior detection, long-range kb, aoe infiltration.


How could I forget the range 65 of the Fire Prism after you circled it in red paint? Guide is +30% damage for 10 seconds with 30 second cooldown which is only an extra 9dps a quarter of the time if used as often as possible. On the other hand combat is not continuous so it might be more of an increase in dps. The sight is useful of course. But what of the WL and WS? And let us not forget the IG commanders.

Range 65 vs 44 is a big deal but 65 vs 55 is not imo.

About micro, even a supercomputer making perfect decisions instantly would possibly struggle vs this:
select Leman, right-click Fire Prism, select GM, press H, right-click Leman. (removed dumb Catachan idea)

While good micro should be rewarded there is a ceiling to what even good players are capable of and there is only so much micro a person can do before it breaks down. The IG attack order above is so braindead that the IG player can spent more time on other units while the Eldar player is frantically ctrl-reversing his FP, fleeting Rangers to safety, using Farsight, retargetting the Leman, etc., etc..
Last edited by Antandron on Thu 12 Apr, 2018 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Forestradio » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 10:18 pm

select Catachans, A-move towards Fire Prism until Rangers spotted, attack Rangers
hahahahahah
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

plz play ig vs eldar
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Antandron » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 10:27 pm

Forestradio wrote:
select Catachans, A-move towards Fire Prism until Rangers spotted, attack Rangers
hahahahahah
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

plz play ig vs eldar


I have literally played as IG once and never plan to do so again, so I really don´t care if that idea is shit. But thank you very much for contributing a better idea. Oh wait! Nevermind.

Good post.

If more people logged games on ESL I would have a chance of finding an Eldar vs IG game that went to T3 in 2.7.2.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Toilailee » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 11:19 pm

Antandron wrote:About micro, even a supercomputer making perfect decisions instantly would possibly struggle vs this:
select Leman, right-click Fire Prism, select GM, press H, right-click Leman, select Catachans, A-move towards Fire Prism until Rangers spotted, attack Rangers.

While good micro should be rewarded there is a ceiling to what even good players are capable of and there is only so much micro a person can do before it breaks down. The IG attack order above is so braindead that the IG player can spent more time on other units while the Eldar player is frantically ctrl-reversing his FP, fleeting Rangers to safety, using Farsight, retargetting the Leman, etc., etc..


One of 4 things can happen when you order GM to repair a vehicle.

1. The GM will repair the vehicle, face the correct way and follow the vehicle when it moves, continuing to repair while in range.
2. Only the repairing model will face the correct way while the rest of the squad will be stuck facing in another direction, unable to shoot.
3. When the vehicle moves, the repairing GM squad might just stop for no reason and act as if they don't have an order.
4. When a GM squad stops to repair a vehicle, the sergeant might not stop with the rest of the squad, causing him to overextend alone massively and get the whole squad killed because he always dies last.

Any of these events can occur at any time without warning when you order a GM squad to repair, which makes IG repair/pathing mechanics extremely clunky at times and you have to constantly be mindful of that. As a result adjusting formations of multiple GM squads and vehicles mid engagement (double sents say hi) is one the most micro intensive things I know in DoW2.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Oddnerd » Thu 12 Apr, 2018 1:44 am

Antandron wrote:About micro, even a supercomputer making perfect decisions instantly would possibly struggle vs this:
select Leman, right-click Fire Prism, select GM, press H, right-click Leman, select Catachans, A-move towards Fire Prism until Rangers spotted, attack Rangers.

While good micro should be rewarded there is a ceiling to what even good players are capable of and there is only so much micro a person can do before it breaks down. The IG attack order above is so braindead that the IG player can spent more time on other units while the Eldar player is frantically ctrl-reversing his FP, fleeting Rangers to safety, using Farsight, retargetting the Leman, etc., etc..


What kind of trash eldar have you been facing? Eldar have plenty of ways to shit on IG late game. The observation sounds like it is based on observing low level games.

EDIT - in addition to the very common situations Toil mentioned above, I would add the IG tank getting caught in a pathing clusterfuck with several infantry squads around it, rendering it essentially immobile and vulnerable to being picked off.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Psycho » Thu 12 Apr, 2018 2:16 am

Not only "essentially" immobile, but sometimes also literally immobile. While repairing, some guardsmen outright refuse to move rather than stutterstepping around pathblocking each other in an attempt to get out of the way.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Torpid » Thu 12 Apr, 2018 2:31 am

I have nothing to say other than eldar vs IG is literally the worst MU for IG there is. How one Earth does anyone deduce they're very strong against them?

Push cats up towards rangers? Are you insane? How cats even alive in T3 when WG can kill them in one burst instantly. Nevermind potential D-cannons, grenades, FP attacks, what???
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Antandron » Thu 12 Apr, 2018 7:31 am

Torpid wrote:I have nothing to say other than eldar vs IG is literally the worst MU for IG there is. How one Earth does anyone deduce they're very strong against them?

Push cats up towards rangers? Are you insane? How cats even alive in T3 when WG can kill them in one burst instantly. Nevermind potential D-cannons, grenades, FP attacks, what???


That was a brainstormed idea to spot infiltrated Rangers. How about Spotter Flare or Commissar Global instead?

I don´t think anyone in this thread has said that IG are strong vs Eldar and the only way to find out is for two equally skilled players to play many IG v Eldar games. The ladder does not provide many examples because of the anti-ESL propaganda, ignorance of its existence and the apparent reluctance of high-level players to log their games or even play one another. One option is to mine the game log for all IG v Eldar games where the player ratings are with a certain number of points and try to find something interesting.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Broodwich » Thu 12 Apr, 2018 8:35 am

what is the purpose of this thread?
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby The Licking Boogyman » Thu 12 Apr, 2018 3:44 pm

It's for the lulz
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Antandron » Thu 12 Apr, 2018 4:23 pm

I am mostly salt fueled after finding out that the Vanquisher has a range of 55 and you should all be backing me up with your "no more Leman OPpression" placards.

In other news I went through all the 2.7.2 games of IG vs Eldar where both players had a rating of 1300 or more, with an exception made for Lomors.

Eldar Glicko SD Rating IG Glicko SD Rating Winner
abc 1843 153 1613.5 Stoned Elf 1811 140 1601 IG
Choko 2033 94 1892 Devon 1734 126 1545 Eldar
abc 1792 166 1543 Stoned Elf 1730 101 1578.5 IG
Choko 2023 96 1879 PaperBag 1835 220 1505 Eldar
Mahror 1803 100 1653 Devon 1730 144 1514 IG
Mahror 1840 102 1687 Devon 1645 154 1414 IG
Mahror 1826 90 1691 Stoned Elf 1825 85 1697.5 Eldar
Mahror 1852 93 1712.5 Stoned Elf 1803 87 1672.5 IG
Mahror 1859 84 1733 Stoned Elf 1786 93 1646.5 IG
Mahror 1845 83 1720.5 Stoned Elf 1761 106 1602 Eldar
Mahror 1871 85 1743.5 Stoned Elf 1717 111 1550.5 IG
Choko 1967 75 1854.5 Stoned Elf 1730 116 1556 Eldar
Choko 1837 97 1691.5 Stoned Elf 1956 140 1746 Eldar
Mahror 1915 85 1787.5 Ruthless at Heart 1905 128 1713 IG
Choko 1703 174 1442 Tharx Gamma 1671 146 1452 Eldar
Choko 1597 191 1310.5 Tharx Gamma 1741 155 1508.5 Eldar
Mahror 1922 76 1808 Stoned Elf 1917 125 1729.5 IG
Mahror 1904 77 1788.5 Stoned Elf 1968 133 1768.5 Eldar
Mahror 1919 79 1800.5 Stoned Elf 1919 143 1704.5 IG
Mahror 1939 81 1817.5 Stoned Elf 1847 155 1614.5 IG
Life 1785 101 1633.5 Boss 2398 171 2141.5 IG
Mahror 1804 115 1631.5 Stoned Elf 1833 98 1686 IG
Mahror 1757 121 1575.5 Stoned Elf 1866 101 1714.5 Eldar
Mahror 1697 126 1508 Stoned Elf 1907 104 1751 Eldar
Mahror 1731 132 1533 Stoned Elf 1891 108 1729 IG
Mahror 1755 141 1543.5 Stoned Elf 1869 111 1702.5 IG
Mahror 1803 152 1575 Stoned Elf 1840 117 1664.5 IG
Life 1701 109 1537.5 Ruthless at Heart 2003 148 1781 IG
Life 1770 95 1627.5 Tharx Gamma 1737 89 1603.5 IG
Life 1744 99 1595.5 Tharx Gamma 1760 92 1622 Eldar
Vanguard Vinci 1819 170 1564 Tharx Gamma 1768 94 1627 Eldar
Vanguard Vinci 1939 185 1661.5 Tharx Gamma 1736 96 1592 IG
Mahror 1971 251 1594.5 Stoned Elf 1866 91 1729.5 IG
eM7 1812 280 1392 Stoned Elf 1849 92 1711 IG
Adila 2064 190 1779 Stoned Elf 1922 109 1758.5 Eldar
Adila 2141 238 1784 Stoned Elf 1907 116 1733 IG
Kung Fu Panda 1648 131 1451.5 Stoned Elf 1891 120 1711 IG
Flo 1997 268 1595 Tharx Gamma 1840 116 1666 Eldar
Life 1694 111 1527.5 Ruthless at Heart 1897 202 1594 Eldar
Life 1799 129 1605.5 Tharx Gamma 1802 118 1625 IG
Kung Fu Panda 1490 137 1284.5 Tharx Gamma 1866 120 1686 Eldar
Kung Fu Panda 1503 141 1291.5 Tharx Gamma 1856 123 1671.5 IG
Lomors 1589 248 1217 Tharx Gamma 1874 132 1676 Eldar
Life 1781 174 1520 Stoned Elf 1898 104 1742 IG
Life 1745 240 1385 Flo 1898 305 1440.5 IG
Kung Fu Panda 1719 270 1314 Tharx Gamma 1963 203 1658.5 IG
Kung Fu Panda 1898 350 1373 Tharx Gamma 1880 221 1548.5 IG
ManOfFaith 2092 164 1846 Toilailee 2077 145 1859.5 Eldar
Life 1841 149 1617.5 E1 1371 187 1090.5 IG
DonFr33man XII 2111 157 1875.5 Yaay 2172 137 1966.5 Eldar
Yaay 2119 147 1898.5 Toilailee 2143 141 1931.5 Eldar
Lomors 1614 208 1302 Stoned Elf 1691 101 1539.5 IG
Lomors 1763 248 1391 Stoned Elf 1662 104 1506 IG
abc 1816 143 1601.5 Stoned Elf 1681 108 1519 Eldar

IG 32 wins
Eldar 22 wins

It could be due to inherent randomness which is why more games is better.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Psycho » Thu 12 Apr, 2018 4:40 pm

You've spotted the rangers. What now?
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Atlas » Thu 12 Apr, 2018 4:43 pm

Don't forget that Guide also increases range of ranged weapons as well iirc.

Also no Boomgun on default was a good decision >.>
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Stoned_elf » Thu 12 Apr, 2018 10:51 pm

In other news I went through all the 2.7.2 games of IG vs Eldar where both players had a rating of 1300 or more, with an exception made for Lomors.


ROFl with 28 of those 54 games being me you may as well say you analysed my games rather than IG vs ELdar :P And I am a part time nub
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Schepp himself » Fri 13 Apr, 2018 10:17 am

Stoned_elf wrote:
In other news I went through all the 2.7.2 games of IG vs Eldar where both players had a rating of 1300 or more, with an exception made for Lomors.


ROFl with 28 of those 54 games being me you may as well say you analysed my games rather than IG vs ELdar :P And I am a part time nub


And that's a MVP right here, folks, a true defender of the Imperium. Keep on fighting so we have at least some data for our discussions.

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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby PianoMan » Sat 14 Apr, 2018 11:54 am

i wonder where you get the confidience to talk about anything antandron when you probably cant beat expert ai
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Nurland » Sat 14 Apr, 2018 1:55 pm

Ok... How about we keep it somewhat civil and try not to be dicks to ech other? Shouldn't really be very hard or complicated
#noobcodex
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Antandron » Sat 14 Apr, 2018 2:01 pm

Probably from the fact that I think before typing.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby PianoMan » Sat 14 Apr, 2018 3:12 pm

You obviously don't otherwise these threads wouldn't pop up
Also maybe if you simply deleted these pointless threads then there would be no reason for people to be dickheads

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