Sniper scouts overhaul

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Easytoremember
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Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Easytoremember » Mon 22 Jan, 2018 1:07 pm

Rangers wreck faces now. With proper management nothing can catch them now. Because of an insane range, infiltration and they are more mobile now, plus you dont hesitate anymore to use fleet foot. That kinetic shot of theirs can easily force a retreat or outright kill a squad if the follow up is proper.

They can run around with ease because of crazy energy regen. You can just click all the abilities now when you need them. Rangers are in their best shape ever in terms of balance. I only wish they were given more damage in later tiers to somewhat keep up with all other squads that keep getting better.

I believe sniper scouts could be reworked the same way to feel impactful and not a burden.

Just as a fact I lose to players that I usually win when I base my builds around snipers. It is not just me not being able to use them properly, it is just the unit. That has to indicate something. And I had great success with rangers if I was at the top of my micro - forcing the opponent to jump into nothing, luring the opponent into my line of shields with guardians and hurting enemy units sufficiently before, launching assaults with holofields when my guardians deploy shields right in front of enemies, kinetic shots with warlock fire or other stuff. With scouts you can only get infiltration and minimaze your bleed. Even if you perform relatively well in t1 with them they are still bad for later tiers and when you dont buy ASM and invest in snipers - in the long run you will be at a huge disadvantage.
Last edited by Easytoremember on Mon 22 Jan, 2018 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kvn
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Kvn » Mon 22 Jan, 2018 2:37 pm

If Rangers (who suffer all the same problem, and are Eldars' only detector unit and don't have the option of going shotguns),aren't getting buffed, it's very unlikely Scout snipers will. Much less that they'll get reverted entirely. That'd be a pretty serious slap to the face for all the Eldar players who've asked for some kind of meaningful buff to Rangers since they fell.
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Psycho
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Psycho » Mon 22 Jan, 2018 3:39 pm

Or just make them a separate unit and limit them to one so that you can balance them without having to think "what if the guy gets two or more of them?" and not conflict with the rest of the unit's upgrade choices. And shove the weapon's cooldown and wind down into windup, their kiting is ridiculous with how they only need to stay still for the setup time and retain their scout speed too. Same goes for rangers.
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Cyris
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Cyris » Mon 22 Jan, 2018 3:49 pm

I really like where Scout/Rangers are at now. They each have clear advantages and disadvantages over each other. Scouts deal more damage but at closer ranges with more risk and require a larger investment in over time. Rangers are cheap and low risk, and gain value through indirect means, while still sufficiently punishing static opponents.
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Kvn » Mon 22 Jan, 2018 3:53 pm

Easytoremember wrote:Rangers wreck faces now. With proper management nothing can catch them now. Because of an insane range, infiltration and they are more mobile now, plus you dont hesitate anymore to use fleet fott.


I'm not sure what you're talking about. Rangers have not had their mobility buffed in any way since retail. Their damage was cut in half (same as Scouts) with fire rate increased, new damage values for snipers added in, later granted suppression on consecutive shots, suppression was then removed in favor of less cost and even less damage, with the most recent patch giving them a very very tiny increase in damage. They are one of the worst combat units in the game right now, bar none. The only real bonus they've got at the moment is that they no longer kill your eco as hard when you absolutely need detection. Fleet has not been touched either.

Easytoremember wrote:That kinetic shot of theirs can easily force a retreat or outright kill a squad if the follow up is proper.


Thanks for reminding me, the Kinetic pulse also lost its damage in exchange for a somewhat faster cooldown. Thanks to doing no damage, it is harder now for it to kill anything. Currently, your opponent needs to be *out* of position, you need to be *in* position, and they have to have no support nearby to stop it. Its useful for knocking things over, not wiping squads.

Easytoremember wrote:They can run around with ease because of crazy energy regen.


No. They don't. I'm not sure where you think they suddenly have crazy energy regen.

Easytoremember wrote:You can just click all the abilities now when you need them.


As opposed to clicking them when you don't need them? The only thing that got a cooldown reduction was the pulse. The rest is the same as it was, and they're not free either.

Easytoremember wrote:Rangers are in their best shape ever in terms of balance. I only wish they were given more damage in later tiers to somewhat keep up with all other squads that keep getting better.


The irony of claiming that Rangers are in their best shape ever after consecutive nerfs while saying that Sniper Scouts are in bad shape... I would like to remind you that Sniper Scouts are a side-grade unit that can also go shotguns, become much more durable with training/sarge and get grenades. Just keep those things in mind.


Easytoremember wrote:I believe sniper scouts could be reworked the same way to feel impactful and not a burden.

Just as a fact I lose to players that I usually win when I base my builds around snipers. It is not just me not being able to use them properly, it is just the unit. That has to indicate something. And I had great success with rangers if I was at the top of my micro - forcing the opponent to jump into nothing, luring the opponent into my line of shields with guardians and hurting enemy units sufficiently before, launching assaults with holofields when my guardians deploy shields right in front of enemies, kinetic shots with warlock fire or other stuff. With scouts you can only get infiltration and minimaze your bleed. Even if you perform relatively well in t1 with them they are still bad for later tiers and when you dont buy ASM and invest in snipers - in the long run you will be at a huge disadvantage.


Given that most races can straight up ignore the damage from Rangers (Scouts can almost out-regen them with their elite training) during most engagements, it sounds much more like you've been playing against opponents who are not approaching the fight correctly. If they're jumping on Rangers instead of a GWT, they're making a mistake. If you're getting away with mass Rangers and the opponent isn't punishing you with a quick vehicle (Ranger spam = next to no genbash potential) they're letting you off far too easily.
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boss
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby boss » Mon 22 Jan, 2018 4:07 pm

Snipers scouts are fine idk why you think they suck.

Rangers also do fine been playing around with them a lot since the changers and they do fine in fact the setup time and deset time is nothing which will get increase,

so unless you got some think useful to say this fred should get closed
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Easytoremember » Mon 22 Jan, 2018 4:34 pm

yeah

yeah

kvn

you are just so fkn

I dunno

you dont play the game

if you dont fkn know that they do a fuckton of damage with upgrade now

they do regen energy like crazy

everything shows that you are a biased eldar fk that probably relies on shurikens like a noob

boss fk off, go fight me 1v1, I will wreck your FINE scout snipers, I will add you when I get back home, I will fight you, and if you do not fucking win with snipers then something is terribly off with them, and you will not win with them, I promise you that

so done with this retarded forum and mod, too sad I came back only to see that people are still fucking dumb
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Kvn » Mon 22 Jan, 2018 5:08 pm

Easytoremember wrote:yeah

yeah

kvn

you are just so fkn

I dunno

you dont play the game

if you dont fkn know that they do a fuckton of damage with upgrade now

they do regen energy like crazy

everything shows that you are a biased eldar fk that probably relies on shurikens like a noob

boss fk off, go fight me 1v1, I will wreck your FINE scout snipers, I will add you when I get back home, I will fight you, and if you do not fucking win with snipers then something is terribly off with them, and you will not win with them, I promise you that

so done with this retarded forum and mod, too sad I came back only to see that people are still fucking dumb


Calm down there bud. I've been playing this game since retail, and I've been following the Elite mod since it first came out.

Yes. I'm an Eldar player and have Eldar bias. Just like you're clearly an SM player with SM bias. These things don't stop us from being able to examine things objectively or near objectively.

Rangers deal very little damage even with the upgrade. That's not really a point of contention. They also don't have super high regen values.

Cussing people out does't help your argument.
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boss
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby boss » Mon 22 Jan, 2018 5:43 pm

This is why people like you should not be allowed to have any say on balance or on the forums at all
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Dark Riku
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 22 Jan, 2018 6:07 pm

Easytoremember wrote:
Kvn wrote:The irony of claiming that Rangers are in their best shape ever after consecutive nerfs while saying that Sniper Scouts are in bad shape... I would like to remind you that Sniper Scouts are a side-grade unit that can also go shotguns, become much more durable with training/sarge and get grenades. Just keep those things in mind.
When's the last time you've seen sniper scouts work in a 1v1 though? Exactly, never in what feels like forever.

To be fair I'd just like to sa that sniper scouts atm are brilliant vs chaos. Either 3x scout, 1x tac and hero upgrades, 2 sniper 1 shotty/sarge. Or swap the tac for devs, map dependent. But other than that they are not so great.
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby TharxGamma » Mon 22 Jan, 2018 6:08 pm

GRUDGE MATCH! My money is on Boss.
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Kvn » Mon 22 Jan, 2018 6:56 pm

Dark Riku wrote:Yeah they have.. setuptimes.


Very well. They've received a *slight* bonus to their mobility.

Dark Riku wrote:*rolls eyes*


You can test it out if you like.

Dark Riku wrote: let meremind you that in retail it does no damage at all. Harder now to kill something that's doing jack all because it's on their buts?


I was adding that in regards to the earlier changes that I was listing on the Ranger timeline. Notice how I never mentioned it being able to wipe squads in retail.

Dark Riku wrote:that's just bullshit. As Eldar you can setup these kind of things with ease. It's what Eldar does.


Which is one third of the equation. There's still the >enemy out of position< and >enemy has nothing to support< factors to consider. Simply saying that kinetic pulse = kill everything isn't true in the slightest.

Dark Riku wrote: pathfinder gear...


Rangers starting out have the standard 1 e/s ratio. Buying pathfinder gear bumps it up to 2 e/s. This is not "crazy" energy regen that allows Rangers to go around spamming abilities left and right as the OP claimed it was.

Dark Riku wrote: Don't you see how major that is? Freaking shotgunblast across the map more often = Eldar profit.


Except that it's not a shotgun blast, as it deals no damage, doesn't suppress (which is a BIG part of why shotgun blast is scary), and has a tendency to hit only certain models if the squad is spread out. I didn't say it was useless. I said it wasn't the I-Win button that people sometimes seem to think it is.

Dark Riku wrote: When's the last time you've seen sniper scouts work in a 1v1 though? Exactly, never in what feels like forever.


And I agree with you. The same can be said for Rangers. Notice how I never claimed that sniper Scouts were good. I said that Rangers, who were in a worse position, weren't getting buffed, and that made it very unlikely that Scouts would either. I would be all for both of them getting some love in some way, as snipers other than the assassin are pretty underwhelming. Something to help them scale into the later game would be awesome.

Dark Riku wrote: think the sarge is a good addition to snipers scouts? He gives the squad nothing to fullfill the sniper role any better.


The point. You've missed it. I wasn't saying that you should buy the Sarge on your snipers. I was saying that the snipers were not the only thing you could buy to kit out your scouts. The Sarge and other upgrades are an alternate path to take them, where as Rangers are very linear in their function.

Dark Riku wrote: Shotguns are better all the time unless you're going spam in a 3v3.


Again, I agree. I never debated this. Shotgun Scouts are straight up better in almost all situations.

Dark Riku wrote: Stop saying stupid things like this :)


I'll stop saying it when it stops being true :)

Dark Riku wrote: Or this. In case you didn't know. It doesn't work while engaged...


Test it out on Scouts who are capping. You might be surprised. The game has interesting definitions of "engaged" sometimes.

Now Riku, I respect you, but if you're going to ignore my points and try to start a fight again, I'm not going to bother responding.
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby egewithin » Mon 22 Jan, 2018 9:05 pm

I smell something... Smells like... A piano?

No, smells like RETARDO to me.
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 22 Jan, 2018 10:28 pm

Kvn wrote:[ou can test it out if you like.
They do damage, L2P and not make hyperboles.
Kvn wrote:I was adding that in regards to the earlier changes that I was listing on the Ranger timeline. Notice how I never mentioned it being able to wipe squads in retail.
What does that even mean? My point still stand. shotgunblast across the map with a follow up Eldar burst attack = profit.
Kvn wrote:Which is one third of the equation. There's still the >enemy out of position< and >enemy has nothing to support< factors to consider. Simply saying that kinetic pulse = kill everything isn't true in the slightest.
Again with the hyperbole, ugh.
Kvn wrote:Except that it's not a shotgun blast, as it deals no damage, doesn't suppress (which is a BIG part of why shotgun blast is scary), and has a tendency to hit only certain models if the squad is spread out. I didn't say it was useless. I said it wasn't the I-Win button that people sometimes seem to think it is.
You are right, it's not a shotgunblast, it's better. You need to be very close for the shotgunblast to go off. Can't just shotgunblast a setupteam for example now can you? There is also still the nice little bug of it not going off. I would love for shotguns to come with the best sight range and detection too. Saying that it's not an I-win button isn't exactly helping this debate now is it? Here you are finally also trying to debunk a stupid hyperbole.
Kvn wrote:And I agree with you. The same can be said for Rangers.
Lel, no it can't. Rangers do so much more.
Kvn wrote:Notice how I never claimed that sniper Scouts were good. I said that Rangers, who were in a worse position, weren't getting buffed, and that made it very unlikely that Scouts would either.
Except rangers are not in a worse position! XD
Kvn wrote:The point. You've missed it.
Don't pretend to be Yoda. You're far out of his league :)
Kvn wrote:I wasn't saying that you should buy the Sarge on your snipers. I was saying that the snipers were not the only thing you could buy to kit out your scouts. The Sarge and other upgrades are an alternate path to take them, where as Rangers are very linear in their function.
That's the whole point exactly!! It's always better to got shotgunscouts and sarge if you need detection. Yet you are implying that sniper scouts are better because they can choose to be not sniper scouts! XD
Kvn wrote:I'll stop saying it when it stops being true :)
Get your head out of your ass man. FFS. "Rangers do no dmg herpyderp!"
Kvn wrote:Now Riku, I respect you, but if you're going to ignore my points and try to start a fight again, I'm not going to bother responding.
That would be for the best. Because most of the things you are saying make absolutely no sense.
Acting like I'm the one that is ignoring the posts while you are making out of the blue assumptions and making hyperbole statements. Like the herpyderp no dmg Rangers XD
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Atlas » Mon 22 Jan, 2018 10:59 pm

All I've gotten out of this so far is Boss/Kvn GRUDGE MATCH and that Rangers are a unit that will be forever debated.
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Kvn » Tue 23 Jan, 2018 12:12 am

Most likely.

I know this is a mistake, but wow. Riku, I didn't know that someone could miss so many of my points in one argument. I'm... actually kind of impressed that you you did that. Not going to debate that anymore with you, as you're pretty clearly not listening.

And in the hopes that this post is at least somewhat helpful to the origin of the discussion and not just me wasting space, I'll just leave this for consideration.

Rangers deal 60 damage per shot (75 according to patch notes, or 80 according to codex, with pathfinder gear) and average around 12 dps (16 with pathfinder gear).

Scout Snipers deal 90 damage per shot and average around 13.85 dps.

So before people like the OP claim that Scout Snipers don't deal enough damage, and that Rangers more, it should be noted that Scouts still outperform them on a shot to shot basis (which is important, as they are sniper units and not continuous fire units) even when the Rangers get pathfinder gear. Make of it what you will.
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Psycho
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Psycho » Tue 23 Jan, 2018 1:07 am

Sniper scouts with long ranged shotgun blast, holofield, and free detect + infiltrate when
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Kvn » Tue 23 Jan, 2018 1:15 am

Psycho wrote:Sniper scouts with long ranged shotgun blast, holofield, and free detect + infiltrate when


When Rangers get a leader upgrade for durability, awesome hp regen out of combat, grenades, repair, and the option to get cc shotguns. :)
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Psycho
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Psycho » Tue 23 Jan, 2018 1:32 am

Granted. Now they cost an additional 65 power.
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Kvn » Tue 23 Jan, 2018 1:35 am

Great! Just so long as you don't mind your scouts costing an additional 40 power on top.
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boss
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby boss » Tue 23 Jan, 2018 3:20 am

I was not talking to knv I was taking to the twat who made this fed and I stand by what I say.

Ranges are fine now try them out more.
Same goes for sniper scouts.
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Antandron
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Antandron » Tue 23 Jan, 2018 10:13 am

Given a choice between Rangers and Scout Snipers I doubt any sane person is choosing the Snipers.

Snipers: 300/25. 9pop. 420 health. speed 6.5. range 55. 13.85dps. 90dmg per hit. 6power to reinforce. Repair.
Rangers: 210/20. 6pop. 450 health. speed 5.5. range 65. 12dps. 60dmg per hit. 3power to reinforce. Kinetic Pulse.

Adding Pathfinder Gear for 75/20 and Infiltration Kit for 50/15 to respective units:

Snipers: 350/40. 13.85dps. Infiltration. Repair. +1.5e/s and +1.5hp/s out of combat.
Rangers: 285/40. 16dps. Infiltration. Holofield. Fleet of Foot. Kinetic Pulse with splash damage.

Another approach:

Scout Snipers: 300/25. 9pop. 420 health. speed 6. range 55. 13.85dps. 90dmg per hit. 4power to reinforce. Repair.
Rangers: 250/25. 9pop. 420 health. speed 6. range 65. 12dps. 60dmg per hit. 4power to reinforce. Kinetic Pulse.

Infiltration Kit: 50/15 (can`t change this because it would disturb stealth shotgun scout balance which is another topic)
Pathfinder Gear: 100/15. Still a bargain for FoF, Holofied, increased dmg and infiltrate.

Totals:
Scout Snipers + Infiltration: 350/40
Rangers + Pathfinder Gear: 350/40

This appears more reasonable as lowering Sniper cost would encourage more Sniper spam which is cancerous. As far as I can tell, Rangers counter set up teams which are priced at around 250/30, but are countered by the following:

ASM: 450/50
Raptors: 400/40
Spotter: 280/30
Raveners: 400/45
Stormboyz: 350/35

So moving Rangers above 350/40 would start to make them very cost inefficient when the counters are priced as above.
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Forestradio » Tue 23 Jan, 2018 1:30 pm

no one chooses between scouts/rangers anymore than you choose between sluggas/shees or tacs/csm now let these pointless comparisons die out plz

buying the sarge on scout snipers is a really really bad idea unless you desperately need detection but the matchups where you need detection are the ones where you don't want snipers anyways so who cares

any big rehauling is going have to wait a while... there's enough stuff to fix without breaking more t1 units
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby TheGoldenChicken » Tue 23 Jan, 2018 1:31 pm

I support Ant's viewpoint
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Antandron
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Antandron » Tue 23 Jan, 2018 1:43 pm

Forestradio wrote:no one chooses between scouts/rangers anymore than you choose between sluggas/shees or tacs/csm now let these pointless comparisons die out plz


How can balance be achieved without comparing units?
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Tue 23 Jan, 2018 1:57 pm

Antandron wrote:
Forestradio wrote:no one chooses between scouts/rangers anymore than you choose between sluggas/shees or tacs/csm now let these pointless comparisons die out plz


How can balance be achieved without comparing units?

If you compare them in a vacuum, yes that comparison may hold. The current version of Rangers exists because Eldar had unimaginable problems with detection in the early game. Rangers are a more of a utility unit than Scout Snipers. They are meant for harassing and bleeding (they deal 30 dmg more than Rangers).
You always have to look at the units in the context of their respective faction. Nobs lose to Seer Council. Both are T3 melee specialists and almost priced the same. Do we need to buff Nobs? No, ofc not. That is why side-by-side unit comparisons like this are rather pointless.
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Forestradio » Tue 23 Jan, 2018 2:13 pm

evaluate units in the context of the faction they are in, including eco/support/synergies/matchup problems/meta
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Antandron » Tue 23 Jan, 2018 2:45 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:That is why side-by-side unit comparisons like this are rather pointless.


Forestradio wrote:evaluate units in the context of the faction they are in, including eco/support/synergies/matchup problems/meta


Imagine a game of chess where black rooks could move up to two spaces diagonally in addition to their usual movement. How would someone go about balancing this game?

a. Allow white rooks to move up to two spaces diagonally.
b. Allow white knights to move up to two spaces diagonally.

With option a the problem of balance is solved forever. Choosing option b just causes more problems because inevitably there will be an imbalance somewhere which people will complain about and demand that something needs to be done. So now the Mods have to do something to fix this, which could be

c. Leave white knights alone and allow white rooks to move up to two spaces diagonally.
d. Allow white bishops to move up to one space forwards, backwards or to the sides.

So the Mods, ignoring common sense, pick option d and 14 patches later there are invulnerable H rank black pawns and teleporting white Kings for balance.
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boss
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby boss » Tue 23 Jan, 2018 2:59 pm

Wtf you on about antandron last time I check dow2 is not chess think it the most retarded answer I ever heard.
if you want old snipers go play fucking retail and tell me how fun it was , in elite they gave up damage for rate of fire which almost the same damage as in retail
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Re: Sniper scouts overhaul

Postby Antandron » Tue 23 Jan, 2018 3:45 pm

I will try a thought experiment to illustrate my point.

Two player Elite Mod, SMa vs SMb:

SMa: Tacs cost 450 req and Scouts 210 req
SMb: Tacs cost 450 req and Scouts 210 req
=balanced.

SMa: Tacs cost 500 req and Scouts 210 req
SMb: Tacs cost 450 req and Scouts 210 req
=broken.

SMa: Tacs cost 500 req and Scouts 210 req
SMb: Tacs cost 450 req and Scouts 260 req
=broken but not as much as before because I broke two things to fix it.

Rangers are broke in comparison to Snipers as I detailed above and the solution is not to break something else but to fix the underlying problem that caused the broken unit to exist. In this case it is some argument about Eldar needing detection. Other factions are paying 25p for detection via Sergeants, Aspiring Champions and Nobz so why can Eldar not pay 25p for detection? It is not as if Rangers are sh!t.

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