Tyranid AV and other issues

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
hiveminion
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Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby hiveminion » Fri 10 Feb, 2017 3:02 pm

I'm just going to drop this post here and see if it gets a response. As many people know I play Tyranids almost exclusively and in all game modes though mostly team games. The following are my thoughts on Tyranids in their current state:

1. Tyranids need some way to diversify their game play by opening up new build options.
2. Tyranids need a ranged anti-vehicle snare in T2.
3. Genestealers need to hold their own in close combat better.

I will elaborate on these thoughts:

1. At least two patches ago the Without Number global was a Tier 2 ability spawning Hormas and Termas for 400 req and 100 red if memory serves. This allowed Tyranids to quickly expand their army with cheap units for a viable horde strategy. Then in 2.5 Without Number became a T3 ability and it was only used for desperate caps or cheap reinforcement. This was in my opinion a very bad decision, and I would like to see the global return to T2, with an appropriate cost, to allow horde style strategies again.

2. Tyranids have the worst AV in the game. Ranged Warriors are mid-range, and priority targets for the enemy due to Synapse bombs. Venom Fexes are T3 Walkers with a hefty price tag. The rest of Nid AV, barring commander wargear, is melee. There is no long-range AV in T2, no ranged snare, and no mobile AV in T3 (ie, tanks). Rippers as a snare do not work effectively, as they need to catch a vehicle first, and even then each bite only slows by 3.6%. Not to mention, they pathblock Carnifexes/Genestealers/Tyrant Guards as they try to get melee hits in on the vehicle. It's ok for Nids to struggle with vehicles as their anti-infantry is very good. However, at the moment, countering fast vehicles and melee walkers is ridiculously difficult, and almost impossible against skilled opponents.

If anything, the new Warp Blast for the Zoanthrope has made this unit an even more essential buy for a Tyranid army, as it is the only reliable way to get quick AV damage off at long range. I would suggest restoring the Warp Blast to its previous, unstackable form or giving a snaring ability (activate to use, could reduce rate of fire or damage output while active to balance) to the Venom Brood.

3. Genestealers are supposed to be a melee superiority unit but they fail at this role because they require Warriors in close proximity that explode all over the Genestealers on death. This in itself is a fine and interesting mechanic but since the nerf to Genestealers they seem to lose out in melee fights more often than not. They are extremely susceptible to both knockback and suppression. I would suggest restoring their ability to its previous form, or giving them temporary knock back resistance while its active to compensate.
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boss
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby boss » Fri 10 Feb, 2017 4:18 pm

tyranid ranged av has always need a snare to work cos 1 no venom brood dps is over time not burst damage like las devs or tank burst and so on and so on damage over time weapons always need a snare for a kill so now without av snare venom fall to do that their job.The new zoans are very stupid yet need if anything to deal with vehicle and their better av then venom brood cos right now 3 zoans will 1 shot a fire prism razor back take half heath of dreads and you get what I saying zoans are better av then venom brood. zoans where to give nids a long range snare to give venom brood a way to kill vehicle or least try but now zoans just kill vehicle. cos people who don't main or don't even play tyranid should fuck around with the race and change anything about them zoans.
Just need to go up to 60 power and lose a lot of their damage or all of it on Focused Warp Blast and get given their snare back with a longer cooldown but then I been saying their since patch but don't listen to a tyranid main right if you do what I say above^^ then this will be fix that's what I say zoans need.

Tho I have to say genestealers are very fine they are a melee superiority even without melee Synapse or just synapse thay fight well their was a game in 2.5 where my genes fight vs cpm with out any synapse and almost wipe down to 1 guy them didn't lose single genestealer and this was Chosen Plague Marines in 2.5 the best melee defence squad so yea their fine genestealers with warriors then melee synapse will beat most stuff in melee don't fucking change them.
With tyranid you need 2 things to work like genestealers and warriors venom and zoans this is how to always been don't start change this pls and this is from my 1v1 point of view and ps players who say tyranid are op should play the race and learn form it
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby Oddnerd » Fri 10 Feb, 2017 9:47 pm

I agree with the complaints about the Zoanthrope FWB changes. Whatever the intentions behind the change were, the end result has been an even greater incentive to resort to Zoanthrope spamming. This is not due to a lack of creativity on Tyranid players' part necessarily - it is just that this game generally favours AV damage that comes in sharp bursts, rather than in smooth, rapid-fire form. This is particularly true of tyranids, who get most of their AV before T3 in the form of heavy_melee or the steady output of the venom broods (who take way longer to kill any vehicle than a small amount of focused anti-HI takes to wipe them). Now, instead of getting 1 Zoanthrope for the utility of a vehicle snare, I see players getting 3 Zoanthropes and annihilating T2 transports and blowing massive chunks out of walkers by firing multiple FWB at once. This is not something that can be changed by minor tweaking - because the superiority of sharp bursts of AV DPS is basically built into the combat dynamics of DOW2, the incentive will always be there to spam the 1 unit with high burst AV.

If the concern is that giving the Zoanthrope a FWB with minimal damage and a snare makes it too easy to blob up on vehicles with heavy_melee, couldn't the heavy_melee damage of Warriors/Genestealers be scaled back or even changed to power_melee to prevent this?
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby boss » Fri 10 Feb, 2017 10:21 pm

gens only got heavy_melee cos of remove of snare for zoans for some reason I more am fine for it to go back to t3 upgrade and it better for the FWB to do no damage just snare like it should have been in the first place
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby hiveminion » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 10:53 am

I am taking the liberty to copy the Nid changes from Atlas's stream here for comments:

Atlas wrote:Ravener Brood:
Cost decreased from 450/50 to 400/45
Build time increased from 24 to 30 seconds


Atlas wrote:Hive Tyrant:
Speed reduced from 4.5 to 4
Health reduced from 1080 to 1050
Venom Cannon FotM reduced from 100% to 75%
Crushing Claws cost reduced from 150/50 to 130/40


I don't understand the speed reduction, HT is slow enough as it is and has no sidearm so is the easiest commander to kite anyway. Crushing Claws cost reduction has been a long time coming since the melee resistance for Walkers was introduced.

Atlas wrote:Lictor Alpha:
Lictor Alpha health increased from 600 to 620
Stalk global cost reduced from 75 to 50
Feeder Tendrils cost reduced from 120/35 to 100/30
Scythe ability radius increased from 10 to 12
Scythe knockback flight distance increased from 4 to 7
Toxic Miasma price reduced from 100/25 to 100/20
Corrosive Claws price decreased from 120/30 to 110/25
Corrosive Claws now snares vehicles by 25% on hit. Effect doesn't stack.
Pheromones increased from 50 seconds to 60 seconds.
Pheromones reinforcement no longer allows allies to reinforce from it, only the user's forces.
Toxic Cysts hp regen increased from 10 hp/sec to 15hp/sec for the duration of the ability


I find the tiny health tweaks on both the HT and the LA hilarious considering the massive balance issues Nids currently have that aren't even being acknowledged (AV snare, Zoan health regen (the nerf last patch only made it slightly less OP), Without Number). I was under the impression that the LA could already snare vehicles with one of his other weapon upgrades.

Atlas wrote:Spore Mines:
Detonations no longer inflict suppression on affected targets


Just remove them from the game at this point. At the very least you could remove the friendly fire from them if you're going to neuter them like this.

Atlas wrote:Carnifex:
Venom Cannon cost decreased from 150/35 to 100/35
Bioplasma minimum casting range increased from o to 10


I would like to hear people's opinion on the TB Fex. For an expensive T3 Walker I find it incredibly weak vs T2 melee walkers like the SM Dreadnought. Perhaps this is more an issue of melee resistance on Walkers being too strong in general. I can understand melee resist being too strong on the TB Fex when its health was 1850 but with its reduced health pool I think at least a 20% melee resist is reasonable. And when are we finally going to get rid of the free Ripper and Spore Mine spam? I'd rather see more cost-effective Fexes that have to pay for their spawns.

Atlas wrote:Neurothrope:
Spirit Leech range increased from 38 to 44



That's it. No changes to Zoanthropes, no ranged snare. No actual balancing of the Zoan health regen again. I hope the mod team will reconsider these issues. I would be more than willing to draft up suggestions to tweak Nids.
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby boss » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 5:01 pm

I have to agree with hive on lot of what he says
1.ravs cost buff is welcome their not worth 450 rec and 50 power
2. the ht less heath is fine but speed nerf is wtf he one of the slow hero in the game on large 1v1 maps I don't thing he will ever be played again also Crushing Claws don't need to cost less their one of the high dps weapon in the game and what the point of this change anyway with a speed nerf faceplam
3. la with these changes will be broken as fuck more heath is good but why on earth would you buff toxic miasma is the go to weapon as it is does good dps over time and debuff per hit and now 100 rec and 20 power just faceplam. the stalk global cost reduced idk have to see how strong it will be. pheromones change are welcome but should maybe cost more to I have to see. Toxic Cysts hp regen increased why its good as it is their no need for a buff as it only cost 100rec 20 power more faceplam and corrosive claws will have to see how he does with them.
4.spore mines will have to see how they do
5. fex in general cost a lot as it is anyway tb fex is very good I don't think melee resistance on Walkers is to strong I think it more of the fact that nid don't have a snare for reason I don't understand their no reason why anyway race should not have a snare unless ork cos high dps av plus snare = broken yet nids don't have high dps unless zoans spam which like I keep saying their damage is way to fucking much Focused Warp Blast 3 shot most transport or 2 on rear yet this is less cancer then them having a snare this does no damage get lost. also zoans heath regen was fixed hiveminion.

so to sum this up lots of this changes are wtf
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby Atlas » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 8:49 pm

To make it really short, the kind of changes you guys are asking for have pretty much been shelved for a 2.7 launch afaik. Most of the changes put in on 2.6.1 are either technically very easy to accomplish such as price changes, plain old bugfixes, or have consensus in what we want done to it.

For example, Hold Fire is something that is technically outside the scope of what 2.6.1 is supposed to accomplish but there was consensus on its expanded implementation. There's still debate about how exactly we want the key to operate hotkey wise, which is why I always try to preface Hold Fire hotkeys as something that is not set in stone yet.

How to exactly go about Tyranids AV changes has no real consensus atm, so it got bumped to 2.7. The rest of the changes were more of less either ones that should have made it in to 2.6 or were agreed with maybe minor reservations at best.

That being said, we're always taking feedback so feel free to talk about it. Feel free to draft the changes here!

As a last note, I'd like to point out how both of you (boss/hiveminion) play a lot of Tyranids and still don't seem to have reached a consensus even on what is already in the log :P
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby hiveminion » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 9:11 pm

Atlas wrote:How to exactly go about Tyranids AV changes has no real consensus atm, so it got bumped to 2.7. The rest of the changes were more of less either ones that should have made it in to 2.6 or were agreed with maybe minor reservations at best.

That being said, we're always taking feedback so feel free to talk about it. Feel free to draft the changes here!

As a last note, I'd like to point out how both of you (boss/hiveminion) play a lot of Tyranids and still don't seem to have reached a consensus even on what is already in the log :P


There is a consensus which is that Tyranids need a ranged AV snare, the most likely candidate being the Zoanthrope. Regardless, I don't understand your attitude.
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby Atlas » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 9:41 pm

To further elaborate on your own point, even if there is a consensus on a ranged snare that doesn't mean that how that ranged snare is implemented is agreed upon. That's not like the Hold Fire keys that are relatively easy to adjust.

My comment at the end was about how I noticed a lot of you mentioning "[X] is [y]" only to have the next post by boss half-filled with comments that go "[X] is not [Y]". Reference genes, TB Fex, Spore Mines to an extent etc etc.
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby boss » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 9:48 pm

yea most players in this game agree that tyranid need their snare back rather then this new zoan shit I really don't see what the problem with no damage Focused Warp Blast for snare instead of 3 shooting flacon or Razorback the way they are now
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby hiveminion » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 11:02 pm

Atlas wrote:To further elaborate on your own point, even if there is a consensus on a ranged snare that doesn't mean that how that ranged snare is implemented is agreed upon. That's not like the Hold Fire keys that are relatively easy to adjust.

My comment at the end was about how I noticed a lot of you mentioning "[X] is [y]" only to have the next post by boss half-filled with comments that go "[X] is not [Y]". Reference genes, TB Fex, Spore Mines to an extent etc etc.


Which was beside the point. Of course two people are not going to reach consensus on everything, its either unanimity or disagreement.

I think the majority of players would agree that the Zoanthrope Focused Warp Blast in its original, snaring state is preferable over the current implementation. It would therefore be an extremely easy fix and could function as a placeholder until the mod team or the community comes up with a better idea.

PS: Might I add, as easy a fix as the Webway gate change you just implemented apparently.
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby Torpid » Sat 11 Feb, 2017 11:43 pm

hiveminion wrote:I think the majority of players would agree that the Zoanthrope Focused Warp Blast in its original, snaring state is preferable over the current implementation.


On the basis that most players are 3v3 players, yes, I would suspect they would agree. Because zoans are far more viable in quantities other than 1 in teams than they are in 1v1. However in 1v1 the zoan-spam-sniping vehicles doesn't really work. And the lack of pure nid OP now in 1v1 is greatly appreciated.

But no, would it hell be preferable. It was absolutely horrid. What a toxic unit. Made the entire race toxic. CL in a race.

I'm not really sure how to address this tbh. In an ideal world 3v3 and 1v1 would play more similar just with more players... but... they really don't.

Still, zoans should not be a go-to unit. It sucks that they are anti-SUT, anti-ranged blobs, anti-vehicle and good infantry support. Hence the hp regen nerf (which I think in its current state is sufficient). Some means of making zoan spam not be as strong in 3v3, zoans not becoming useless in 1v1 and nid AV woes being solved is needed here. It's a tricky one.

More to be said on nids holistically later though when I get time for a full response.
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby boss » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 12:09 am

torpid you can get easy 2 zoans in 1s and more I did it ve red Rupee a while back 2 zoans Razorback showed rear by miss click ded Razorback gg from their same as falcon to or any transport. zoans are way more toxic you say their not a zoans should not be a go-to unit but lack of snare means thay are now cos their av better then Venom Brood. zoans were to give the snare for venom brood to kill the vehicle now zoans just kill vehicle snareing is less toxic then what they are now. let me just give you some maths 3 Focused Warp Blast on front will kill fire Prism Chimera Razorback falcon kill truck with 2 shot most dread will be down to half heath. Predator tanks will die to 5 shots if this is not toxic when I don't no what is zoans are in the most toxic state since retail.
Its way better for the Focused Warp Blast to just snare and not do any damage that don't stack
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby Atlas » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 7:18 am

The Webway gate change was something I double checked before adding in to no objection, involves the changing of exactly one value and, being frank here, really won't have a major impact on balance. It's pretty safely in the "quality of life" category so yes, that was relatively easy to add in.

Even if we took the "simplest" and pretty much only suggestion I've heard so far about nids av (restoring the zoan snare), this change has massive balance implications and there's hardly any real consensus on whether adding the zoan snare back is a good or a bad thing. Hence, it is not that easy of a change.

I think we can do better than essentially making the Zoan a crutch unit to cover holes. We all had so much fun with Lasrhinos in the past.
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby Nurland » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 8:19 am

Can't really say much about the Zoan snare thingy but here are just some random thoughts that came to mind after reading notes etc.

- I honestly don't see a reason HT needs a speed nerf nor do I see a reason Crushing Claws should be 40 power (I mean with speed reduction it kinda makes sense but I don't think either of the changes sounds like a good one).

- Spore mines don't need the nerf I think. I think they are fine at their current state.

- Ravener buff is welcome. Their cost efficiency is pretty horrible now.

- Not sure if Aegis needed the double nerf.

- Not sure about Nob changes. No more reatarded hp pool late game but frenzy cost reduction + upgrade cost reductions are pretty significant. I suppose time will tell.

- LA wargear buffs were kinda needless apart from Feeder Tendrils. I think they were a bit overpriced at 35 power. Other stuff was fine price/performance wise.

- Drain life is too good in this patch. This change should nerf it properly. Dunno how I feel about the extra damage on retreat but the range is pretty darn short so...
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby hiveminion » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 8:38 am

Torpid wrote:On the basis that most players are 3v3 players, yes, I would suspect they would agree. Because zoans are far more viable in quantities other than 1 in teams than they are in 1v1. However in 1v1 the zoan-spam-sniping vehicles doesn't really work. And the lack of pure nid OP now in 1v1 is greatly appreciated.

But no, would it hell be preferable. It was absolutely horrid. What a toxic unit. Made the entire race toxic. CL in a race.

I'm not really sure how to address this tbh. In an ideal world 3v3 and 1v1 would play more similar just with more players... but... they really don't.

Still, zoans should not be a go-to unit. It sucks that they are anti-SUT, anti-ranged blobs, anti-vehicle and good infantry support. Hence the hp regen nerf (which I think in its current state is sufficient). Some means of making zoan spam not be as strong in 3v3, zoans not becoming useless in 1v1 and nid AV woes being solved is needed here. It's a tricky one.

More to be said on nids holistically later though when I get time for a full response.


I'm not buying your argument that Zoan spam at the moment is any less potent in 1v1s. Even if it was, Nids would still be completely imbalanced in 1s because they'd have no way of dealing with fast vehicles!

You say the original version made the race toxic, but give no arguments to support. How is a race dependent on melee for most of its mediocre AV supposed to deal with speed 7 tanks and transports without a snare? How is it any more 'toxic' than Warp Spiders completely shutting down a vehicle so the superfluous AV of Eldar can nuke it at their leisure? The Zoanthrope snare didn't even stack!

Atlas wrote:Even if we took the "simplest" and pretty much only suggestion I've heard so far about nids av (restoring the zoan snare), this change has massive balance implications and there's hardly any real consensus on whether adding the zoan snare back is a good or a bad thing. Hence, it is not that easy of a change.

I think we can do better than essentially making the Zoan a crutch unit to cover holes. We all had so much fun with Lasrhinos in the past.


Yes, it has massive balance implications in that it makes the current Zoan spam meta a lot less toxic. So far the only person I can think of that is experienced with Nids that disagrees is Torpid. So I'd say there is a pretty solid consensus. If we would apply your stringent dedication to consensus, where are most of these and the previous patch changes coming from anyway? Veteran players have been crying for a Nid snare ever since it was taken away and it has been steadily ignored by a minority of people.

If you're worried the Zoanthrope would return to the crutch it was, at least a crutch is better balance design than a loophole. I'm amused you talk about quality of life changes yet refuse to give a crippled man a crutch, allegorically.
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby boss » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 5:28 pm

My god you don't get this at all tyranid av Venom Brood dps is over time which mean they need from the zoan snare for a vehicle kill. Venom Brood are the av unit zoans now fill that role with their new Focused Warp Blast. zoans should have is snare back for no damage you say their should not be a crutch unit to cover holes it already does you idiot ask any player good player and ask them would that want zoan snare for no damage or what they are now
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby Torpid » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 7:34 pm

hiveminion wrote:I'm not buying your argument that Zoan spam at the moment is any less potent in 1v1s. Even if it was, Nids would still be completely imbalanced in 1s because they'd have no way of dealing with fast vehicles!

You say the original version made the race toxic, but give no arguments to support. How is a race dependent on melee for most of its mediocre AV supposed to deal with speed 7 tanks and transports without a snare? How is it any more 'toxic' than Warp Spiders completely shutting down a vehicle so the superfluous AV of Eldar can nuke it at their leisure? The Zoanthrope snare didn't even stack!


The claim that they have no way to deal with fast vehicles is untrue. It is like claiming IG cannot deal with artillery or T2 melee spam. It is a weakness; one that is built into the balance of the race.

I gave no arguments because I thought it should be quite obvious. Pre the removal of the snare nid play was rather mindless and required barely any skill at all to defeat nearly every other race at the highest levels of play. You just a-move a blob of venoms/zoan/gaunts+TG. Get genes more anti-melee, ravs for anti-ranged, more zoans for anti-SUT, or tech. Everything was defeated with very little micro by a-moving forward. No need for flanks or managing your higher numbers of squads on the peripheries in order to compensate for your blatantly higher in-battle cost effectiveness. No need for any real skill or awareness.

hiveminion wrote:Yes, it has massive balance implications in that it makes the current Zoan spam meta a lot less toxic. So far the only person I can think of that is experienced with Nids that disagrees is Torpid. So I'd say there is a pretty solid consensus. If we would apply your stringent dedication to consensus, where are most of these and the previous patch changes coming from anyway? Veteran players have been crying for a Nid snare ever since it was taken away and it has been steadily ignored by a minority of people.

If you're worried the Zoanthrope would return to the crutch it was, at least a crutch is better balance design than a loophole. I'm amused you talk about quality of life changes yet refuse to give a crippled man a crutch, allegorically.


Leading on from what I said above... We removed the snare and now nid players are QQing (and not really any non-nid players) about the lack of a nid snare bar rippers (which obviously don't really count). What non-nid players are QQing about and rightly so, is the ability for zoan spam in 3v3 to snipe vehicles. That needs to be addressed somehow.

Caeltos was the one who pressed for the change initially and it has been crucial to actually making nids objectively balanced. It was never something that was considered a democratic change - it was an intentional change in game design on how nids functioned to make it easier to objectively balance and I think they are much closer to that now than ever before. The HT atm is a little too good and any attempt at spamming zoans in 1v1 must be done with him, pretty much, hence he is getting nerfed. In contrast the LA is getting buffed as in the current meta he is weaker than the other two heroes. Overall this should make the objective balance of nids pretty good and avoids needing to fall back onto the toxic mechanism of the fwb snare.

However there is still a glaring issue of it causing spike damage. I was thinking one possible solution would be zoans FWB doing a DoT damage to vehicles that cannot stack. And perhaps getting a small cost decrease to compensate. That way one cannot immediately obliterate vehicles with zoan spam. And it still has supplementary long ranged AV potential while not reverting to the toxic snare...

https://www.dawnofwar.info/esl/match/23152237

As the above replay (which is now regrettably from an earlier patch) suggests, one can deal with transports and tanks rather well (in 1v1) by 'getting good'.

Utilising the higher squad count, higher speed, greater cost effectiveness in combat and capillary towers to beat a foe by screening off their vehicles with either melee or venoms while simultaneously crushing their eco and retaining superior map control. You don't need to be able to gib a vehicle in one good engagement in order to win as nids as you do with space marines or chaos. By the time a tank comes out you should have a VC fex AND be half-way towards getting another fex in terms of resources.

TL;DR Nids were OP with the zoan snare. Objectively balancing nids with a zoan snare is far more complicated a deal than doing so without it. Thus, it's a strong principle to avoid reversion to it.
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby Torpid » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 7:37 pm

boss wrote:My god you don't get this at all tyranid av Venom Brood dps is over time which mean they need from the zoan snare for a vehicle kill. Venom Brood are the av unit zoans now fill that role with their new Focused Warp Blast. zoans should have is snare back for no damage you say their should not be a crutch unit to cover holes it already does you idiot ask any player good player and ask them would that want zoan snare for no damage or what they are now


You're making the fallacy of assuming that this is a dichotomy of options.

It is -not- the case that just because players do not like the zoans how they are now that they -must- be reverted to their old snare as if that is the only option available.

In contrast, other options should be considered... Because I'm almost certain nids will be OP again if the zoan FWB does snare even if it does no damage and even if zoans are 60 power. So that raises all sorts of other questions as to how to balance them if we do introduce it - what unit gets nerfed, how so, etc.

Hence my proposal for it to be an exclusive DoT capped at 1 stack combined with zoans becoming cheaper.
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby boss » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 8:23 pm

and yet this is why you should not be in change of balancing tyranid at all cos this is all your thoughts your thoughts no one else at all and what you came back and play 4 games of la and now have the rite to change the whole race to what you think it should be when other players stayed and maind them and now telling you that this is how it should be the players. your idea of cheaper zoans is toxic is as fuck dot Is stupid.FWB does snare even if it does no damage and even if zoans are 60 power wont be broken cos 1 you still need something to guard the zoans 2 the need venom brood to kill the vehicle so you need to at least spend 75 power which is more than fine or maybe make it an upgrade for zoans to have fwb to snare in the first place.
But like I say it all your thoughts that this will be broken ask the players your self what they want zoans to kill vehicle or to snare vehicle to allow an other unit to kill them.
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby hiveminion » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 8:47 pm

Torpid wrote:
The claim that they have no way to deal with fast vehicles is untrue. It is like claiming IG cannot deal with artillery or T2 melee spam. It is a weakness; one that is built into the balance of the race.

I gave no arguments because I thought it should be quite obvious. Pre the removal of the snare nid play was rather mindless and required barely any skill at all to defeat nearly every other race at the highest levels of play. You just a-move a blob of venoms/zoan/gaunts+TG. Get genes more anti-melee, ravs for anti-ranged, more zoans for anti-SUT, or tech. Everything was defeated with very little micro by a-moving forward. No need for flanks or managing your higher numbers of squads on the peripheries in order to compensate for your blatantly higher in-battle cost effectiveness. No need for any real skill or awareness.




If you think Nids were a mindless a-move race which could win games without any effort or micro-management it sounds to me you have not been playing them frequently enough or have been punching below your weight. If you move your Nids as a blob and your opponent doesn't target your Warriors or Synapse that's his mistake.

I am not seeing and have never seen Tyranids dominate the 1v1 or tournament scene in Elite mod nor have I seen top players constantly playing Nids or refusing to play Nids due to their imbalance.

If Tyranids need to rely on a superior tech advantage, map control, AND army maneouvering to counter a vehicle I say that's poor balance design. Tyranids should be able to deal with vehicles the way everyone does: by getting out a counter to it.
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby Ace of Swords » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 9:32 pm

I am not seeing and have never seen Tyranids dominate the 1v1 or tournament scene in Elite mod nor have I seen top players constantly playing Nids or refusing to play Nids due to their imbalance.




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We were at a point where you either played LA or dropped out of the fucking 1v1 tournaments and the only person that could beat riku's LA was noisy with chaos after he played hundreds of games vs me,forest,darkhero and others in order to find a fucking way to reliably beat that piece of OP shit.

And I also clearly remember you were already playing this game and were in the community at that point so don't write such bullshit.

Oh and to put the cherry on top of the cake they have been in this state for YEARS in elite, just nobody played them because nobody wants to play with this boring faction, now nids have been on a somewhat difficult position in early T2 just for a few months (less than 6) and still they are fully capable of winning games they just have to put some thoughts into their actions and to amortize the impact of early transports (like that would happen, nids still dominate the T1 scene).
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby boss » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 9:56 pm

yea well ace thanks to torpid new changes for la next patch he be back at that stage also big Mathis won a tournament with ht a while back so you can win games and tournament but zoans atm are just in the wrong forum of what they should do
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby Torpid » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 10:57 pm

boss wrote:yea well ace thanks to torpid new changes for la next patch he be back at that stage also big Mathis won a tournament with ht a while back so you can win games and tournament but zoans atm are just in the wrong forum of what they should do


Well make your mind up! Either nids are useless without their snare, or they are too good with it (and apparently without it if buffed elsewhere?)

The LA won't be OP like he was before because flesh hook has been nerfed a lot since then, longer cd, more energy cost and less damage. And in general energy preservation is harder to deal with on the LA. Also, of course, he still is the one nid hero weakest against vehicles and that won't change, nor will nids being weak to vehicles in general.

HT was always the best nid hero, hence the minor nerfs he is yet to receive. Alongside some minor buffs elsewhere and a potential berf to zoans...

Big Mathis is Big Mathis.

Clearly an exceptional player and a poor example to judge balance around given all else he done.
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby fe_ » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 11:16 pm

I am not a top tier player and don't want to disrupt your arguing over nids being OP\UP. But I want to drop some of my observations here.
Tyranid AV is fine from my perspective, apart from a couple things:
1) Tarrantula turrets can baselock you in t1/t2, especially true for team games.
2) Heavy turret is almost unkillable.
3) Banewolf dropped onto my powerfarm makes me cry.

As it was mentioned before, spore mines are weak vs garrisons. In some cases they do not even do damage to troops inside (if the building is big enough), sometimes they just can't do enough damage to smoke a unit out (true for heroes or even tacs\csm). Playing green tooth gorge (and some 2v2 maps) is a pain for me because of that. Would it be gamebreaking if tyranid heroes would be able to purchase some wargear to deal with garrisons? I am talking bioplasma for HT, some kind of upgraded flesh hook, pooling models out of the windows, for LA, you got the idea. Seismic Roar, Toxic Burst and Toxic Miasma are not very effective, because radius is tiny. Just a wild thought, I know it's hard to implement and balance.

On the same topic, i can't see how removing suppression from sporemines will work, I got a strong feeling that mass melee from your opponent will be much more painfull in t1. Because there will be nothing to stop 3 sluggas and WB from killing sporemines in melee, taking damage from one detonation, or even just moving through them to chope your fragile stuff. Unless, of course, you're playing HT.
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boss
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby boss » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 11:46 pm

torpid I never said nids are useless with out the snare don't you fucking dare put words in my mouth. la wont be op like he was in retail or early elite cos in retail zoans half shot tacs and most setup teams and Feeder Tendrils only cost 25 power so yea so when I say la will be op cos let see what buff you are giving him
1.buff toxic miasma why 100 20 just why
2. Toxic Cysts hp regen increased why
3 stalk global why only 50 red you will be able to spam that plus now toxic miasma 100 20 = la level 3 before t2
4 even feeder tendrils I don't think need to cost less their cost a lot put when the la heath buff he will be able to tank more plus with stalk
5 corrosive claw buffs the snare good but their no need to lessen the cost tho
6 only pheromones changes are a really nerf and even so their should maybe cost more idk on that tho

so yea I wonder what could go wrong with la next patch and what I mean about zoans like I said for the 10th time or more zoans should not 3 shot transports or take half heath of dread like I keep on saying their should only snare no damage and cost more so then your av unit aka venom brood can do their job. ht was seen been good and played these few last patch's cos he has good av cos the other 2 nids heroes don't have great av or non for la but then that's the race problem not heroes but thanks to atlas the ra was buff and now his builds very well these days and I would ask people to play more ra in 1s and try them out over the ht.

Big Mathis is Big Mathis.

Clearly an exceptional player and a poor example to judge balance around given all else he done

I don't no what you mean by this but not many people can win vs him when he played least not many times he is the only player I no who can go full melee builds and make them work even vs cl and pc so I don't no what you mean by this
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 13 Feb, 2017 12:10 am

hiveminion wrote:I am not seeing and have never seen Tyranids dominate the 1v1 or tournament scene in Elite mod nor have I seen top players constantly playing Nids or refusing to play Nids due to their imbalance.
Have you been living in another dimension than me? °_O


What am I reading though in this thread?
HT to speed 4?? Cheaper claws?? Mines not suppressing?? How about no! -.-
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Cyris
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby Cyris » Mon 13 Feb, 2017 2:10 am

My 3c?

Nids have been overnerfed, but that's ok. Next step is to give them back some potency, in unique niddy ways, without getting them to their former broken state.

I think snare should come back, but nids are balanceable without it, though other changes would be needed.

I look forward to seeing spores from my opponents.


Very excited for 2.6.1, release dammit!
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby Aguxyz » Mon 13 Feb, 2017 2:41 am

zoan snare should comeback just make the warp blast do like 100 dmg or something and see how it goes from there
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Re: Tyranid AV and other issues

Postby boss » Mon 13 Feb, 2017 2:58 am

Aguxyz wrote:zoan snare should comeback just make the warp blast do like 100 dmg or something and see how it goes from there


Hmmmmmmmm with 100 damage and snare vehicles will have a hard time to do anything and with 20 second cooldown like I say before fwb should do no damage but snare with more cooldown and more cost

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