Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Strategy and L2P topics.
realmslayer
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Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby realmslayer » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 6:48 am

I'm getting really tired of having to find out the hard way a bunch of stuff it seems everyone knows already and just takes for granted that the noobs know too. For example:

- how to tell The difference between hard AV and soft AV

-"default units are not meant for combat roles" just read this one. if it means what i think it does, i have to relearn everything again
- "you need to side cap with one unit and keep the rest near each other for support"
- ability x isnt worth it
- unit x isnt worth it
- upgrade x isnt worth it
- ability/unit/upgrade x isnt worth it in 1v1
- GK is too good
- OM isnt good enough

And more. I mean, i had to spend a long time looking at the codex to try and figure out the exact mechanics of why fire dragons are shit against walkers. It turns out you generally need a snare. Btw:

- the importance of snares when fighting walkers with av
- the worthlessness of melee vs walkers

Khornes chainmail ballsack this is frustrating!

What i want - to begin with - is a basic list of what general class of thing beats what. I'm not talking damage types and armor types, these things are misleading to noobs like me in the extreme. Why dont rangers do any thing to tactical marines? Why do i need fire dragons, a falcon, and maybe crack shot or farseer guide to beat one walker? Ill tell you one thing, i didnt find out from fucking damage types.

- the fact that damage types alone dont tell you who wins a fight
- I still dont know how accuracy actually works, only that it increases dps somehow. Arrgh!

the second thing I want is a list of all the units that are either useless or so situational that %90 of the time if i decide to use it im doing it wrong.

last if anyone could direct me to what the hell i'm supposed to do with wargear purchase order for the farseer, id appreciate it.

tl;dr: there are nowhere close to enough resources for new players, we need more, vids are worthless when you don't and can't know basic shit.
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egewithin
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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby egewithin » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 7:24 am

realmslayer wrote:tl;dr: there are nowhere close to enough resources for new players, we need more, vids are worthless when you don't and can't know basic shit.


Wrong, I learned this game by olny watching Indrid, Maestro, Red Rupee. Sorry Bbbos, you are too late for that :P Those casters are explaining everything while the game continues. You can't say they are useless by only watching a single video.

To learn basic shit you say; go play campain. It was my practice of knowlage when I first started.

What i want - to begin with - is a basic list of what general class of thing beats what.


Lascannons / Brightlance : Every kind of tank. Lascannon slows down the target. Long range.

Missiles / Rockets : Every kind of tank, but requares chasing. Long range

Melta : Close range, can take down everything; tank, infantry, structure, as long as you keep firing.

Autocannons : Damages everything in its range. Not the best AV source, but still a thing. Long range.

Heavy Melee : Good for tanks that has no melee resistance. Least practicle AV source, useful as long as you are fast like Exarch of Banshees.

Melta Bombs : They snare tanks. Useful when you want to make a combo or you don't want the tank to run away.

Tyranid AV : They are all different.

Why dont rangers do any thing to tactical marines? Why do i need fire dragons, a falcon, and maybe crack shot or farseer guide to beat one walker? Ill tell you one thing, i didnt find out from fucking damage types.


First, you checked the wrong place. Codex only gives information, not the practice and the experiance. Secondly, you could just ask us. :D

- the fact that damage types alone dont tell you who wins a fight


There we go.

- I still dont know how accuracy actually works


It means the chance to hit the target. Accuarsy of missiles on tanks is like 100% but it is 5%(?) on infantry models for example. Some weapon has less accuarcy while moving and some has 100% like melta weapons.
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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby Swiftsabre » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 11:41 am

To be honest, there's more than enough stuff that has floated around for new players to read or watch but if you're still stuck I have three suggestions.

1) Play with the FA beginners group, they meet every evening from 8pm GMT on a teamspeak server called ts.for.al, ask them if they can show you what you need and they'll be happy to oblige.

2) Ask one of the current high tier players or streamers and I'm sure they'd try to help, for example BbBoS might help you out i you ask nicely.

3) Most obviously, keep playing. We learn through trial and error, and I certainly did, so when you get it wrong or you don't understand why someone says "X is shit", try something else and see if it helps.
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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby Toilailee » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 12:07 pm

When someone says "xyz is shit/op", don't believe them. ;)
More likely than not they're biased or it's a misconception as some units/abilities perform very differently at different skill levels. For example units like scouts and sentinels are among the best units in the game on high level and not very good at low level and point and click abilities like doombolt and grenades can appear to be really strong at low level but lose their effectiveness when the opponent knows how to dodge. At this point in elite there aren't really any units, heroes or abilties that are useless or outrageously op (I don't really know much about gk tho), but there is plenty of hero wargear that are overshadowed by other wargear so they might not get used much even if they're not that bad. Try stuff out and make your own judgement on things.
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The Dragon Reborn
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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby The Dragon Reborn » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 12:38 pm

Yeah I wouldn't get to bent out of shape about not knowing everything from the word go, hell I only found out the other day that brightlances have an ability (facepalm). Experimentation can be fairly interesting with wargear as well.

But like Swift said join us on the FA teamspeak and ask questions while playing some games with us. And you would be very surprised what bits of info you pick from watching Indrid and BbBos casts.
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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby Psycho » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 5:55 pm

realmslayer wrote:"default units are not meant for combat roles"


Dire Avengers say hi
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Cyris
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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby Cyris » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 8:44 pm

Toilailee wrote:More likely than not they're biased or it's a misconception as some units/abilities perform very differently at different skill levels. For example units like scouts and sentinels are among the best units in the game on high level and not very good at low level and point and click abilities like doombolt and grenades can appear to be really strong at low level but lose their effectiveness when the opponent knows how to dodge. At this point in elite there aren't really any units, heroes or abilties that are useless or outrageously op (I don't really know much about gk tho), but there is plenty of hero wargear that are overshadowed by other wargear so they might not get used much even if they're not that bad. Try stuff out and make your own judgement on things.


+1 to all this.

There are a couple of exceptions (ToN bug, OM sucking) but overall balance is quite good across the factions. The things I wish would change (again, not counting OM here) are minor iterative balance tweaks, or adjusting some wargear options to provide more variety.

The biggest thing I assume everyone knows, is that ones level of experience and objectivity about balance do not gate your ability to spout nonsense about on forums and Youtube comments. Ye gods, the morons posting in the Faction War videos drive me nuts.
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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby Dark Riku » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 8:56 pm

Cyris wrote:Ye gods, the morons posting in the Faction War videos drive me nuts.
Good to know I'm not the only one :)
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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby Cyris » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 8:58 pm

Dark Riku wrote:Good to know I'm not the only one :)


It's bad enough when inexperienced players come in here and spout balance changes. But when people who literally only watch Youtube casts start dropping opinions like fact... augh.
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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby Broodwich » Fri 05 Aug, 2016 7:43 am

Units in melee take 50% ranged damage
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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby ComboBreaker » Fri 18 Nov, 2016 9:43 am

Broodwich wrote:Units in melee take 50% ranged damage

Wait, really? Was it always like that?
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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Fri 18 Nov, 2016 10:23 am

ComboBreaker wrote:
Broodwich wrote:Units in melee take 50% ranged damage

Wait, really? Was it always like that?


60% since the dmg reduction should be 40% only.
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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby ComboBreaker » Fri 18 Nov, 2016 10:56 am

Adeptus Noobus wrote:60% since the dmg reduction should be 40% only.

Thats a very important information. I have been playing DoWII since it's initial launch* and I didn't know that was thing. There should be some kind of in-game description for that.

*Horrible memories of Windows Live haunt me until today, more like Windows Leave, am I right?
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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby Crewfinity » Fri 18 Nov, 2016 6:22 pm

ComboBreaker wrote:Thats a very important information. I have been playing DoWII since it's initial launch* and I didn't know that was thing. There should be some kind of in-game description for that.

*Horrible memories of Windows Live haunt me until today, more like Windows Leave, am I right?


this codex entry explains some of the other less public mechanics:
https://dawnofwar.info/codex.php?page=e ... t_glossary
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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby Black Relic » Fri 18 Nov, 2016 10:59 pm

its 50% for most units that are in melee. Guardsmen don't get that nor does the avatar. Although the GOU does. Its weird how things work like that tbh.
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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby Psycho » Fri 18 Nov, 2016 11:29 pm

Does it only extend to the model engaging in melee or does the entire squad get it even if just one single model is actually attacking?
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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby Black Relic » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 3:23 am

it's the model.
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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby Cyke » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 6:24 am

Crewfinity wrote:
ComboBreaker wrote:Thats a very important information. I have been playing DoWII since it's initial launch* and I didn't know that was thing. There should be some kind of in-game description for that.

*Horrible memories of Windows Live haunt me until today, more like Windows Leave, am I right?


this codex entry explains some of the other less public mechanics:
https://dawnofwar.info/codex.php?page=e ... t_glossary
Cool, some of the stuff I wrote for the dow wikia is in there! Nice!
The Melee Skill section was from me :D

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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby Dullahan » Thu 15 Dec, 2016 6:18 pm

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/p ... strategies

While a lot of this stuff is outdated, there may be some useful information in there. Anything from 2011 onward should be relevant enough to Retribution, and there's even Elite specific content on there. I dunno how much is really fundamentals though.

You've given me some ideas though. I might try and produce some content aimed at teaching new players a lot of the fundamentals. I didn't think there'd be much interest but maybe with DoW3 on the horizon there'll be some people checking out DoW2.
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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby Schepp himself » Thu 05 Oct, 2017 12:58 pm

Crewfinity wrote:
ComboBreaker wrote:Thats a very important information. I have been playing DoWII since it's initial launch* and I didn't know that was thing. There should be some kind of in-game description for that.

*Horrible memories of Windows Live haunt me until today, more like Windows Leave, am I right?


this codex entry explains some of the other less public mechanics:
https://dawnofwar.info/codex.php?page=e ... t_glossary


Thanks for that. Had a good read.

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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby Crewfinity » Thu 05 Oct, 2017 1:42 pm

Schepp wrote:
Thanks for that. Had a good read.

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Happy to help :)
If you have any specific questions feel free to ask them!
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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby Antandron » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:24 am

I find it funny that no-one mentioned a-moving, as if it were too obvious even for this thread. "A-move" I assumed to be all-move, as in mass-selecting all units and marching them around the map and focusing on one enemy unit at a time. In my head this was exactly what GK players were doing with double Strike and Purgation squads. They would simply press ctrl-A and use the cursor to move their killer blob around while drinking coffee with their now no longer required left hand.
Last edited by Antandron on Fri 06 Oct, 2017 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:49 am

ctrl-a would require GK players to press 2 buttons at the same time which is considered too much micro, thus it is broken, hence heretical. pressing a and clicking where you want to delete stuff is easier on the ligaments and joints of your hands as well.
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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby Schepp himself » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 4:11 pm

A quick question:
Is green cover directional like in company of heroes?

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Re: Stuff people Just assume everyone knows

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 4:25 pm

Yes, it is.
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