Fire Dragon -- Move to T3

[Dullahan]

So these guys are absolutely ridiculous. At first I was thinking: "Man it's crazy good mobile anti everything ranged DPS that can't be knocked down and also takes reduced damage from ranged weapons, what the fuck were they thinking.". But I thought about it a bit, and I think these guys would make a great fit as a T3 unit, rather than T2.

I don't think Eldar really needed more AV in T2. They have plenty already, and I liked the combined arms playstyle that they used to have where they needed 2-3 AV units rather than the one stop shop that firedragons are.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Fire Dragons are Heavy Infantry now and susceptible to ability knockback. There is plenty of counterplay out there. They do however punish misplaced Walkers/Vehicles extremely hard indeed.

[Adila]

The problem is more the chase potential they have, maybe an slight movement nerf would help.

[Dullahan]

Fire Dragons are Heavy Infantry now and susceptible to ability knockback. There is plenty of counterplay out there. They do however punish misplaced Walkers/Vehicles extremely hard indeed.

The knockback immunity means that melee units are significantly less effective against them, especially on the move.

The only remotely comparable unit is Stormtroopers with meltaguns, which are much squishier, shorter range and don't have nearly the same rate of fire even with buffs.

The problem is more the chase potential they have, maybe an slight movement nerf would help.

Even if you nerf their base stats, there's so much synergy with other Eldar abilities. Not hard to use Swift movement, autarch jump or a billion other tools to make these guys a menace.

They are incredibly poorly designed and make other Eldar antivehicle seem essentially worthless.

[Kvn]

The knockback immunity means that melee units are significantly less effective against them, especially on the move.

Not really. Melee might not knock them over, but it tears them to shreds. They die so quick in close combat that it doesn't matter. Heavy armor isn't really a boon when you've got so little base hp.

The only remotely comparable unit is Stormtroopers with meltaguns, which are much squishier, shorter range and don't have nearly the same rate of fire even with buffs.

Storms also have a built in Melta bomb for snare, infiltration, no power cost/reinforcement, and the ability to specialize as anti-infantry. Dragons are fixed in being a mostly av, short range, bleed intensive unit that can be countered with proper positioning.

Even if you nerf their base stats, there's so much synergy with other Eldar abilities. Not hard to use Swift movement, autarch jump or a billion other tools to make these guys a menace.

The same could be said for every unit of every race. Using your ST example, they don't 'need' infiltration since you can stealth them with Interrogator's armor. They also have a snare despite the Lascannon already snaring. Support being possible doesn't mean it's reliable, and if your opponent is dumping all their abilities into Dragons, they're not putting it on the dangerous squads.

They are incredibly poorly designed and make other Eldar antivehicle seem essentially worthless.

That really isn't true at all. Dragons are only useful against aggressive light vehicles, or Khorne Dreds due to the loss of control. Against heavier targets, the Brightlance is superior due to costing less to keep on the field while possessing much longer range. Wraithguard are just straight up better than Dragons in all aspects except speed, and synergize much better with the Eldar lineup since they offer a damage sponge unit for the glass-cannon army. Dragons are a very situational unit, same as Warp Spiders. You absolutely don't want them if your opponent isn't playing into their strengths because of how much pressure they can put on your economy.

Moving them to T3, in their current state, would be pretty pointless. They already lose pretty much all relevance once tanks hit the field, so it'd more or less equate to them becoming useless.

[Forestradio]

Fire Dragons have HI armor and thus are vulnerable to plasma weaponry. As well as the multitude of HI counters available to every race.

They are fine for the most part, as Adila said their speed could go down a small amount, but there is no comparison to be had with stormtroopers at all.

[Dullahan]

Not really. Melee might not knock them over, but it tears them to shreds. They die so quick in close combat that it doesn't matter. Heavy armor isn't really a boon when you've got so little base hp.

What I mean is in a kiting scenario squads are extremely likely to trigger specials against them (since they are moving and have reduced melee skill) but those specials will be completely ineffectual. Units like assault marines are particularly awful against fire dragons because of their 70 melee skill and long special wind ups. Chaos Lord, Hive Tyrant and Brother captain also benefit from this but they are also speed 4.5 and not 5.5 like fire dragons. (assuming FD are 5.5 and not something like 6 or 6.5 for some retarded reason)

Against walkers this is pretty bad too, since normally their specials will follow units (like deff dread magnetic knockdown type stuff). So they can actually beat most walkers in a fair fight by kiting.

Storms also have a built in Melta bomb for snare, infiltration, no power cost/reinforcement, and the ability to specialize as anti-infantry. Dragons are fixed in being a mostly av, short range, bleed intensive unit that can be countered with proper positioning.

Eldar is the absolute king of disrupting "proper" positioning. And when Fire Dragons do catch you out, you're dead. There is no escaping from them. They're too fast and have such great damage output.

The same could be said for every unit of every race. Using your ST example, they don't 'need' infiltration since you can stealth them with Interrogator's armor. They also have a snare despite the Lascannon already snaring. Support being possible doesn't mean it's reliable, and if your opponent is dumping all their abilities into Dragons, they're not putting it on the dangerous squads.

What I'm saying is that you have to consider what the nerf is aiming to do. If you're aiming to reduce their ability to chase down vehicles, reducing weapon range and not movement speed would be more effective.

Eldar's thing was specialist units that had to synergize together with hero abilities to be effective. Giving them anti-all units like fire dragons was a bad design decision. Wraithguard were that unit, but they also had plenty of drawbacks to balance them out. As you say, Wraithguard also synergize better with the Eldar army.

Both Dark Reapers and Fire Dragons offer something Wraithguard already do better, but they're easier to use and for whatever reason we needed to add overlapping unit roles to every faction for some dumb reason.

That really isn't true at all. Dragons are only useful against aggressive light vehicles, or Khorne Dreds due to the loss of control. Against heavier targets, the Brightlance is superior due to costing less to keep on the field while possessing much longer range. Wraithguard are just straight up better than Dragons in all aspects except speed, and synergize much better with the Eldar lineup since they offer a damage sponge unit for the glass-cannon army. Dragons are a very situational unit, same as Warp Spiders. You absolutely don't want them if your opponent isn't playing into their strengths because of how much pressure they can put on your economy.

I've been playing a lot of CoH2 lately so maybe my expectations are different but vehicles are VERY survivable in DoW2 in comparison and without the snare wombo combo a brightlance isn't going to do much more than scare them off.

Moving them to T3, in their current state, would be pretty pointless. They already lose pretty much all relevance once tanks hit the field, so it'd more or less equate to them becoming useless.

Hardly, fire dragons can decimate tanks in seconds. They can literally walk up to tanks and kill them while being shot at by said tank, the only way the tanks survive is by kiting. If they flank, or catch the tank in a position where it can't kite, snare or otherwise tactically outwit you the tank has no chance of escape and is dead within 10 seconds.

They're harder to use against tanks, but they are far from pointless and still extremely effective against everything else with their melta damage.

[Kvn]

What I mean is in a kiting scenario squads are extremely likely to trigger specials against them (since they are moving and have reduced melee skill) but those specials will be completely ineffectual. Units like assault marines are particularly awful against fire dragons because of their 70 melee skill and long special wind ups. Chaos Lord, Hive Tyrant and Brother captain also benefit from this but they are also speed 4.5 and not 5.5 like fire dragons. (assuming FD are 5.5 and not something like 6 or 6.5 for some retarded reason)

Dragons are speed 6.5 same as Scouts and Hormas. The specials don't trigger so often as to be a big deal when chasing down Dragons. They really are incredibly flimsy in close combat. Kiting Walkers is basically what they're designed to do.

Eldar is the absolute king of disrupting "proper" positioning. And when Fire Dragons do catch you out, you're dead. There is no escaping from them. They're too fast and have such great damage output.

Unless they're chasing down a half-dead walker, you can just move away from them. Transports and tanks outpace Dragons handily unless you get screwed by pathing, so it's mostly about judging when to push forwards/pull back.

What I'm saying is that you have to consider what the nerf is aiming to do. If you're aiming to reduce their ability to chase down vehicles, reducing weapon range and not movement speed would be more effective.

Eldar's thing was specialist units that had to synergize together with hero abilities to be effective. Giving them anti-all units like fire dragons was a bad design decision. Wraithguard were that unit, but they also had plenty of drawbacks to balance them out. As you say, Wraithguard also synergize better with the Eldar army.

Fire Dragons aren't anti-all in the slightest. If you try using them against a predominantly infantry army, you're going to have a very bad time.

Both Dark Reapers and Fire Dragons offer something Wraithguard already do better, but they're easier to use and for whatever reason we needed to add overlapping unit roles to every faction for some dumb reason.

Actually, Reapers offer a counter to Heavy/SH units both melee and ranged focus from long distance. While that overlaps a bit with Wraithguard given their anti-blob focus, it isn't the same niche. Dragons on the other hand, are a straight up focus on what Wraithguard do minus the ability to take on multiple infantry squads at once.

I've been playing a lot of CoH2 lately so maybe my expectations are different but vehicles are VERY survivable in DoW2 in comparison and without the snare wombo combo a brightlance isn't going to do much more than scare them off.

No... They're really not... Vehicles in DoW 2 are incredibly fragile unless you micro them perfectly. They're high-cost, high-impact (for the most part) units that are resistant to normal damage types, but very vulnerable to others. Only super units and the Leman Russ can really claim to be super durable. Most others can be killed off/controlled by a Lascannon with some soft av support if the person using them slips up once.

Hardly, fire dragons can decimate tanks in seconds.

I'm sorry if this sounds offensive, but I question who you've been playing with that allow your Dragons to get up that close to a tank. Maybe in the chaos of a 3v3 where they're distracted, but a looked-after tank will kite Dragons forever.

They can literally walk up to tanks and kill them while being shot at by said tank, the only way the tanks survive is by kiting.

This flat out isn't true. Having tested it multiple times myself, I can assure you that the only 'tank' Fire Dragons outshoot in a straight up fight is the Fire Prism. They're made of paper at this point, and the aoe of tank shells wreck them hard.

If they flank, or catch the tank in a position where it can't kite, snare or otherwise tactically outwit you the tank has no chance of escape and is dead within 10 seconds.

The same can be said for any av unit. That's kind of the point of them.

They're harder to use against tanks, but they are far from pointless and still extremely effective against everything else with their melta damage.

If you try to use them as a straight up fighting unit, they'll bleed your eco far worse than the enemy's. Storm Troopers with Meltas have essentially the same damage type, but you never, ever, use them as a frontline combat unit. They're too fragile for it. Same goes for Dragons.

[Dullahan]

Dragons are speed 6.5 same as Scouts and Hormas. The specials don't trigger so often as to be a big deal when chasing down Dragons. They really are incredibly flimsy in close combat. Kiting Walkers is basically what they're designed to do.

Lmfao really? That's retarded. Should have made them 5.5 like other Eldar and given them fleet of foot so they'd have to trade damage output for chase potential.

You do realize that tanks have a max speed of 7.25 right? And that they have to accelerate up to that speed, while infantry reach top speed much faster. Acceleration is pretty quick in DoW2, but still. With any sort of movement bonus (Autarch or warlock for example) fire dragons actually outrun tanks and you have the audacity to say that they are useless once tanks hit the field. Fucking hilarious.


I also found the codex. Fire dragon melta guns deal 12.1 DPS versus vehicles, or 48 with a completely vanilla squad. With their ability they gain perfect on the move accuracy and 50% faster rate of fire. They have 180 hp per model which is comparable to warp spiders and certainly not squishy and their exarch has a whopping 350 hp. (They also cost less than warp spiders by a significant amount)

Compared to IG stormtrooper meltas, they have higher range, higher damage, higher rate of fire, more hitpoints, faster movement speed and a similar reinforcement cost. (IG don't reinforce power, but in terms of requistion it's pretty similar.) There's other trade offs, but I want to make a point that these guys are designed to chase down vehicles extremely well while IG are instead meant to ambush them.

Also their cost is absurdly cheap.

360/30, an 85/15 exarch and only 45/3 reinforce. Like maybe with all the cost reductions elite mod has scene that is expensive, but I still remember the days of 440/40 stormboyz and they were perfectly viable. I don't think them fighting other infantry is remotely as unviable as you claim economically. They're cheaper than Banshees, warp spiders or dark reapers to fully upgrade, cheaper to reinforce than the letter two. Even guardians cost 420/30 to fully upgrade, versus fire dragons modest 445/45. (Almost cheaper than vanilla warp spiders, despite dealing more damage and being tougher and having a better damage type)

They dish out slightly less damage than upgraded warp spiders against regular infantry, but have the superior damage type. With their ability they deal out way, way more damage than warp spiders even with upgrades. They're "glass cannons" , except they have by far the biggest cannon in the game and aren't nearly as glassy as other units thanks to heavy infantry and their beefy as fuck exarch.

Like how is this not considered overperforming? I'm not saying it's uncounterable or can't be played around, but they clearly have nearly everything going for them. I think they would fit better into t3 because they have so many benefits over regular infantry at the time they hit the field. They are absurdly good for their cost, they have absurdly good anti-all damage output, they've got great mobility and durability. (As far as Eldar is concerned, they are the tankiest infantry they have.)


Literally their only real weakness is that they have 24 (28 when upgraded) range and that they take bonus damage from plasma and power_pvp.

I don't see why Eldar wouldn't get these guys every game instead of the more expensive, more specialized units.

[Kvn]

Lmfao really? That's retarded. Should have made them 5.5 like other Eldar and given them fleet of foot so they'd have to trade damage output for chase potential.

That would kind of defeat the purpose of their design in the first place. Once again, no snare, approach mechanism, etc.

You do realize that tanks have a max speed of 7.25 right? And that they have to accelerate up to that speed, while infantry reach top speed much faster. Acceleration is pretty quick in DoW2, but still. With any sort of movement bonus (Autarch or warlock for example) fire dragons actually outrun tanks and you have the audacity to say that they are useless once tanks hit the field. Fucking hilarious.

Tanks also wreck them on approach. As for their speed, they only just outpace tanks when buffed, and those movement speed bonuses don't tend to last that long. A tank in good health can still easily outpace them and deal with the damage (assuming it doesn't outright kill them for having the audacity to chase it at more than 50% hp) until their speed buff wears off, leaving them trailing behind once again.

I also found the codex. Fire dragon melta guns deal 12.1 DPS versus vehicles, or 48 with a completely vanilla squad. With their ability they gain perfect on the move accuracy and 50% faster rate of fire. They have 180 hp per model which is comparable to warp spiders and certainly not squishy and their exarch has a whopping 350 hp. (They also cost less than warp spiders by a significant amount)

Not squishy...? You can almost wipe a squad of Fire Dragons from full HP, with exarch, in one doombolts volley. Warp Spiders are on of the most fragile T2 onward infantry units in the game, and are super dependent on jumping into cover and out of the line of fire. Dragons on the other hand, are forced to charge head on towards the enemy due to their short range, and suffer greatly as a result. 180 hp is next to nothing, especially when taking bonus damage from so many sources.

And since when is 350 hp a "whopping" amount? It's the same as a level one Tactical Marine model for a squad leader. Not a die last model either, so you're often replacing him every other engagement.

Compared to IG stormtrooper meltas, they have higher range, higher damage, higher rate of fire, more hitpoints, faster movement speed and a similar reinforcement cost. (IG don't reinforce power, but in terms of requistion it's pretty similar.) There's other trade offs, but I want to make a point that these guys are designed to chase down vehicles extremely well while IG are instead meant to ambush them.

Also their cost is absurdly cheap.

360/30, an 85/15 exarch and only 45/3 reinforce. Like maybe with all the cost reductions elite mod has scene that is expensive, but I still remember the days of 440/40 stormboyz and they were perfectly viable. I don't think them fighting other infantry is remotely as unviable as you claim economically. They're cheaper than Banshees, warp spiders or dark reapers to fully upgrade, cheaper to reinforce than the letter two. Even guardians cost 420/30 to fully upgrade, versus fire dragons modest 445/45. (Almost cheaper than vanilla warp spiders, despite dealing more damage and being tougher and having a better damage type)

They dish out slightly less damage than upgraded warp spiders against regular infantry, but have the superior damage type. With their ability they deal out way, way more damage than warp spiders even with upgrades. They're "glass cannons" , except they have by far the biggest cannon in the game and aren't nearly as glassy as other units thanks to heavy infantry and their beefy as fuck exarch.

Their rec cost isn't what's important. It's the power cost. Same deal for Spiders. I don't know how much Eldar you play, but that power bleed from model losses is a big deal, and, if you get too aggressive, can flat out lock you out of teching. You're going to take losses with Dragons. That's how they're designed, very similarly to Banshees. A smart opponent will capitalize on this, assuming they're not just killing them off already to protect their vehicles, and punish you hard for building such an easy target to kill off. Eldar is a hugely power hungry faction, spending a lot on upgrades, rebuying die-first squad leaders, and lacking any kind of rec-dump unit, so Dragons are far from an I-Win button.

And again, since when is being a Tac model equivalent considered "beefy as fuck" in T2?

Like how is this not considered overperforming? I'm not saying it's uncounterable or can't be played around, but they clearly have nearly everything going for them. I think they would fit better into t3 because they have so many benefits over regular infantry at the time they hit the field. They are absurdly good for their cost, they have absurdly good anti-all damage output, they've got great mobility and durability. (As far as Eldar is concerned, they are the tankiest infantry they have.)

Because they are so frail, and have nothing else going for them. No built in sneaky tactics. No Eldar trickery. Just a straight up damage dealing unit. If you want to support them, you need to dump the cost into other wargear and squads to support them in a purely parasitic relationship. Those cheap Fire Dragons aren't so cheap when you have to add on a Warp Spider squad, with upgrades, for a snare.

Literally their only real weakness is that they have 24 (28 when upgraded) range and that they take bonus damage from plasma and power_pvp.

And those are pretty huge weaknesses. Quality over quantity.

I don't see why Eldar wouldn't get these guys every game instead of the more expensive, more specialized units.

I will be blunt, and I apologize for the language, but the reason Eldar don't use them every game is because they suck ass in 4 out of 5 matches. Again, they are only good against aggressive light vehicles or Khorne Dreds. Anything that moves faster than them, or shoots back with relative potency, tends to leave them reeling so long as the opponent doesn't make a micro blunder. Why should I dump the time and added effort into trying a mass-combo Dragon attack when I can just buy Wraithguard or a Falcon to do the same job more efficiently while keeping better support for my army after the target is gone?

I would suggest you try using them for yourself. A lot of what you're suggesting sounds like exaggerations brought on by looking at them from a purely outside perspective. Play against some skilled people, and you'll fine they're not nearly so 1-A as you seem to think they are.

[Crewfinity]

I also found the codex. Fire dragon melta guns deal 12.1 DPS versus vehicles, or 48 with a completely vanilla squad. With their ability they gain perfect on the move accuracy and 50% faster rate of fire. They have 180 hp per model which is comparable to warp spiders and certainly not squishy and their exarch has a whopping 350 hp. (They also cost less than warp spiders by a significant amount)

Not squishy...? You can almost wipe a squad of Fire Dragons from full HP, with exarch, in one doombolts volley. Warp Spiders are on of the most fragile T2 onward infantry units in the game, and are super dependent on jumping into cover and out of the line of fire. Dragons on the other hand, are forced to charge head on towards the enemy due to their short range, and suffer greatly as a result. 180 hp is next to nothing, especially when taking bonus damage from so many sources.

And since when is 350 hp a "whopping" amount? It's the same as a level one Tactical Marine model for a squad leader. Not a die last model either, so you're often replacing him every other engagement.

I've seen this said a few times now and it seems really disingenuous.

doombolts do 18 plasma damage each, and sorc fires 3 at lvl 1, 6 if he has levels and energy.
so that's 54 potential plasma damage, or 108 with levels.

being generous and assuming that every single bolt hits every single model of the fire dragons every single time, that amounts to
270 plasma damage, or 540 plasma damage.

factoring in the damage modifier and you get:
405 damage to the fire dragons, or 810.


but that's never going to happen. doombolts are easy enough to avoid for normal speed 5 units, and dragons are speed 6.5. good luck even landing one doombolt. and to think that they're clustered enough to hit more than 2 or 3 with a bolt seems quite naiive. even assuming the eldar player clumps them together and just leaves them there like a moron, that's only going to be 80% of their health. most of the time i'd be suprised if they lose more than 100 health, its just too easy to avoid with high speed units.


i really dont think dragons are as fragile as you're making them out to be. 350 HI hp on exarch is preeeeeetty damn good compared to the rest of the roster....
shees have 240 hp infantry armor exarch for 90/25
Dark reapers have 300 hp HI exarch for 85/15
warp spiders have 200 hp infantry armor exarch for 85/15
DA have 275 hp infantry armor warlock for 85/15


seems pretty beefy to me. fire dragons still tear damn near anything to shreds, have absurdly good chasing potential, and are fast enough that melee isnt very relevant, since they're immune to specials which normally are how melee squads are able to pile on the damage to kiting ranged squads. add to that the amazing support abilities eldar in general have with heroes, globals, and webways, and they're still good in a lot of matchups.

[Kvn]

I've seen this said a few times now and it seems really disingenuous.

doombolts do 18 plasma damage each, and sorc fires 3 at lvl 1, 6 if he has levels and energy.
so that's 54 potential plasma damage, or 108 with levels.

being generous and assuming that every single bolt hits every single model of the fire dragons every single time, that amounts to
270 plasma damage, or 540 plasma damage.

factoring in the damage modifier and you get:
405 damage to the fire dragons, or 810.


but that's never going to happen. doombolts are easy enough to avoid for normal speed 5 units, and dragons are speed 6.5. good luck even landing one doombolt. and to think that they're clustered enough to hit more than 2 or 3 with a bolt seems quite naiive. even assuming the eldar player clumps them together and just leaves them there like a moron, that's only going to be 80% of their health. most of the time i'd be suprised if they lose more than 100 health, its just too easy to avoid with high speed units.

You say that as though losing 80% of their health isn't a huge blow. Note that I said "almost wipe" when hit by doombolts. Leaving them with sub 20% hp would constitute that, wouldn't it?

As for hitting them, it's surprisingly difficult to dodge a good doombolts when the Sorc uses it properly. Sure from long range anyone who's half paying attention can avoid it without any real effort when using a speed 6.5 unit, but if the Sorc player waits till you get close (with short range weapons) and stop to shoot, then unleashes a volley, it can be pretty devastating. Add in any supporting fire from the rest of his/her army, and the Dragons could flat out die in the span of a few seconds. In the middle of a big engagment, you'd end up losing your av squad for inconveniencing the Sorc player momentarily, after which they turn back to the rest of your army.

i really dont think dragons are as fragile as you're making them out to be. 350 HI hp on exarch is preeeeeetty damn good compared to the rest of the roster....
shees have 240 hp infantry armor exarch for 90/25
Dark reapers have 300 hp HI exarch for 85/15
warp spiders have 200 hp infantry armor exarch for 85/15
DA have 275 hp infantry armor warlock for 85/15


seems pretty beefy to me. fire dragons still tear damn near anything to shreds, have absurdly good chasing potential, and are fast enough that melee isnt very relevant, since they're immune to specials which normally are how melee squads are able to pile on the damage to kiting ranged squads. add to that the amazing support abilities eldar in general have with heroes, globals, and webways, and they're still good in a lot of matchups.

How is comparing a fragile squad leader to a bunch of even more fragile squad leaders a good way of determining his durability? Again, this is level 1 Tac model health. Same HP, same armor type. In T1 it can be durable, but come T2 where Dragons hit the field, that isn't anywhere near beefy.

They certainly don't tear things to shreds. I've said enough on this particular point so I'll leave it at that.

Melee is always relevant if the person uses it properly.

Those support abilities are typically needed for more important squads. I'll say again, if the opponent is dumping all his stuff onto the Dragons, things like Banshees, Wraithguard, etc. become a lot less scary.

[Black Maw]

I'm not going to oversell my knowledge here but FDs are a real problem at the moment. A lot of people have been complaining about them and it's pretty easy to see why, they are an anti everything unit without the normal weaknesses of those kind of units. I guess it's supposed to be their range but with an insane 6.5 speed they can close that gap in no time at all and it's not like they are fragile enough to not want to be on the front line, so they aren't as vulnerable as other melta units.

The main problem for me is: one squad of fire dragons can be very difficult to deal with but not impossible. 2 squads are insane.

And at 445 req 45 power for the squad and exarch, there simply isn't enough of an economic downside to not get two, since they are anti everything and really aren't fragile. 360 req 30 power is insanely cheap for melta damage - melta damage is costly or in later tiers for other races but now Eldar get melta damage FDs AND already have melta damage Wraithguard? There really needs to be more of a downside to getting 2, like cost or it just not being available. There's also no damage penalty against any other kind of armour when Elder already have good LI damage (guardians, shees etc.) and dark reapers are awesome against HI. Why do fire dragons need to be good at both AND vehicles?

I don't get what role they are supposed to fill. Eldar are already excellent at destroying vehicles with D-cannons, WG, fire prisms, Autarch can get an awesome melta gun thing, WS have haywire grenades, even the WL sword does excellent AV damage plus their nuke which is so so so good at destroying vehicles. Why do Eldar need even more help destroying vehicles when they are already better equipped than some of the other races?

People are just buying them instead of DRs and WG, which sucks cos DR's are so cool looking but i never see people getting them. I think an easy fix is to increase their cost by a fair bit or stop a player from being able to buy two. At least that way an Eldar player would be persuaded to get fire dragons for general anti-all firepower and a bit of durability with the option of DR to really stick it to HI or WG for vehicles, rather than FD replacing the two. FD spam is a thing and i know I'm not the only one who thinks so. I really hope more people speak up about it.

[HARRYY]

my2cents:

- using FD with gates definately multiplies their effect
- the use with (IMO very cheap) falcon makes them so mobile and effectful as well. not to Forget onfield-reinforcements. Supported by banshes+falcon theyre MAD.
- spells like guide, or any other FS speel makes them incredibly hard to deal with.
- warlock&WSE globals are gold on them , too.


I wouldnt put them T3 tho... Id just increase their power cost to slow tech, that could be their back-side then.

[Kvn]

I'm not going to oversell my knowledge here but FDs are a real problem at the moment. A lot of people have been complaining about them and it's pretty easy to see why, they are an anti everything unit without the normal weaknesses of those kind of units. I guess it's supposed to be their range but with an insane 6.5 speed they can close that gap in no time at all and it's not like they are fragile enough to not want to be on the front line, so they aren't as vulnerable as other melta units.

The main problem for me is: one squad of fire dragons can be very difficult to deal with but not impossible. 2 squads are insane.

And at 445 req 45 power for the squad and exarch, there simply isn't enough of an economic downside to not get two, since they are anti everything and really aren't fragile. 360 req 30 power is insanely cheap for melta damage - melta damage is costly or in later tiers for other races but now Eldar get melta damage FDs AND already have melta damage Wraithguard? There really needs to be more of a downside to getting 2, like cost or it just not being available. There's also no damage penalty against any other kind of armour when Elder already have good LI damage (guardians, shees etc.) and dark reapers are awesome against HI. Why do fire dragons need to be good at both AND vehicles?

I don't get what role they are supposed to fill. Eldar are already excellent at destroying vehicles with D-cannons, WG, fire prisms, Autarch can get an awesome melta gun thing, WS have haywire grenades, even the WL sword does excellent AV damage plus their nuke which is so so so good at destroying vehicles. Why do Eldar need even more help destroying vehicles when they are already better equipped than some of the other races?

People are just buying them instead of DRs and WG, which sucks cos DR's are so cool looking but i never see people getting them. I think an easy fix is to increase their cost by a fair bit or stop a player from being able to buy two. At least that way an Eldar player would be persuaded to get fire dragons for general anti-all firepower and a bit of durability with the option of DR to really stick it to HI or WG for vehicles, rather than FD replacing the two. FD spam is a thing and i know I'm not the only one who thinks so. I really hope more people speak up about it.

I feel like I'm repeating myself over and over here, but the reason people were complaining about them so much in the past was due to their 30% damage resistance. That was removed, and their regular infantry armor was replaced with heavy infantry. This is an absolutely massive hit to their survivability.

You call them durable, but they only have 180 hp of HI per model. That's less than Dark Reapers who have 200. People have constantly said that DR are too frail, even with their recent health buff, and yet a squad with 20 less hp which has to get up close and personal with their targets are somehow considered tanky?

As for your point on av, half the things you listed simply aren't viable as a strong av source. D-cannons do little to vehicles now that their damage was nerfed, since the aoe doesn't hit them properly. Fire Prisms are not a dedicated av source on their own. Their a supplementary source, due to being a disruption focused tank. Not weak enough to be soft av, but not strong enough to be a flat out counter either. Autarch fusion gun is a niche purchase at the best of times, usually only good for hunting down artillery due to her insane mobility. It isn't going to do anything impressive against tanks, walkers, or any durable vehicles. Haywire is an incredibly expensive snare given you need a frail, high cost, high bleed, anti infantry unit in order to use it. WL sword isn't all that impressive considering it lost a good chunk of survivability in the last patch. You're usually better off with a Falcon.

Eldar is a faction based around a lot of light or semi-light av options. That's not a bad thing in and of itself, but to say that all of these things are dedicated vehicle killers is just silly.

People don't overlook Dark Reapers because of Fire Dragons... I have no idea where that idea came from. People overlook Dark Reapers because they're a fragile anti-HI unit, similar to how the Spiders are a fragile anti-infantry unit, who don't have a means of escaping once the enemy catches them off guard. They bleed a lot, and their primary targets aren't often in great enough numbers to warrant them being purchased over something like Wraithguard or a Falcon.

Circling around to your initial point, there are plenty of ways to counter Fire Dragons. If you don't want to fight them in melee, buy plasma/inferno weaponry. People are stuck in the mindset that plasma = bad against Eldar, but if you're fighting spam, it's an easy way to absolutely ruin the opponent's economy. That power bleed might not look like much to you, but it's a huge detriment to the Eldar eco. Other than that, traditional means of control, minus knockback, still work just fine. Suppression teams may need to shoot them a little longer, but they aren't immune. if your opponent buys Fire Dragons instead of something like Wraithguard, that's a good thing. It means they're opening themselves up to a lot of pain in an attempt to get out a dedicated av unit.

[Kvn]

my2cents:

- using FD with gates definately multiplies their effect
- the use with (IMO very cheap) falcon makes them so mobile and effectful as well. not to Forget onfield-reinforcements. Supported by banshes+falcon theyre MAD.
- spells like guide, or any other FS speel makes them incredibly hard to deal with.
- warlock&WSE globals are gold on them , too.


I wouldnt put them T3 tho... Id just increase their power cost to slow tech, that could be their back-side then.

How is 360 rec 90 power for a 500 hp transport unit considered very cheap...? It's the most expensive transport in the game short of the Land Raiders.

If you're buying a Falcon with multiple Fire Dragons, you're already going to be behind in tech, especially if you're going for reinforcement chains. That isn't a good strategy with Eldar.

[HARRYY]

well, it performed for me pretty well, when I tried it.

The falcon is not only a simple Transport, hes a force-multiplier through on-field reinforcements which propels banshee-performence extremely. dont Forget about AI and big AV damage, plus his maneuverability to overcome most shit in T2. He can do it easily into T3 where his performence overscales.

if you go for an heavy T2 you anyway will have banshees around since T1 --- getting falcon+FD certrainyl is an Investment, but not a stupid one per se.


I wouldnt like to see FD nerfed much TBH. theyre useful and not essentially broken. Maybe their FOTM Ratio could be tweaked. T3 would be Overkill.

[Psycho]

How is 360 rec 90 power for a 500 hp transport unit considered very cheap...? It's the most expensive transport in the game short of the Land Raiders.

A 500hp transport that also has 28 venom cannon DPS at speed 8 along with 40+ piercing DPS, with a T3 upgrade that at minimum DOUBLES its hp up to a potential 1416 total HP at level 4. That can also soft-counter enemy transport play and force them to get AV. The GK Rhino can get the 23.57 DPS lascannon upgrade, but limits it as strictly AV for 15 power while the Falcon's pulse laser alone has 5 more DPS against vehicles AND infantry, and with 42 DPS against HI.

[Kvn]

The falcon is not only a simple Transport, hes a force-multiplier through on-field reinforcements which propels banshee-performence extremely. dont Forget about AI and big AV damage, plus his maneuverability to overcome most shit in T2. He can do it easily into T3 where his performence overscales.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but minus the av portion of that, that's a description for every transport in the game. Being a force multiplier is part of their description, and things like the Wartukk and Chimera do it far better, for cheaper, due to supporting swarmy armies as opposed to the higher cost Eldar units. It's av damage is useful, but it's not a source in and of itself. It's a supporting platform. Things like the Rhino lascannon are generally far more frightening.

All it gets in T3 is a survivability boost through the shield. That's hardly overscaling considering its damage stays the same. It can make a good shielding unit, but this isn't a tank we're talking about here.

if you go for an heavy T2 you anyway will have banshees around since T1 --- getting falcon+FD certrainyl is an Investment, but not a stupid one per se.

That depends heavily on what faction you're fighting. Banshees aren't an autobuy unit. In fact, I've seen a lot of Eldar players going for triple DA in matches that used to require them. Even if you do have them, Banshees and Dragons don't really mesh beyond the fact that both are going to be charging at you. They have different counters, so different units are going to be focusing them down.

I wouldnt like to see FD nerfed much TBH. theyre useful and not essentially broken. Maybe their FOTM Ratio could be tweaked. T3 would be Overkill.

Having their power cost increased is quite a big nerf to begin with. Their power bleed is already a big deal, and one of the key limiting factors in buying them, so increasing it further is huge.

The FotM thing I would actually agree with. Their chase potential with their ability is bordering on ridiculous against fragile units, assuming you manage to force off the rest of the opponent's army without getting them shot to bits, so I think that would be a good place to start if they needed a nerf.

[Kvn]

A 500hp transport that also has 28 venom cannon DPS at speed 8 along with 40+ piercing DPS, with a T3 upgrade that at minimum DOUBLES its hp up to a potential 1416 total HP at level 4. That can also soft-counter enemy transport play and force them to get AV. The GK Rhino can get the 23.57 DPS lascannon upgrade, but limits it as strictly AV for 15 power while the Falcon's pulse laser alone has 5 more DPS against vehicles AND infantry, and with 42 DPS against HI.

500 hp in T2 is still 500 hp in T2. You'd be hard pressed to find an av source that couldn't threaten that. Given that most all other transports are either cheaper straight up, have a health boost they can buy, or both (in most cases) it stands to reason that the Falcon would at least have some benefit to its survivability. Otherwise it would be a completely worthless investment that died the moment T3 came around.

As for it's damage output, you don't seem to be taking accuracy, targeting priority, or burst into consideration. On paper, it's a great damage dealer. In practice, it's useful, but not nearly as scary as it sounds. Not to mention it tends to bug out when shooting a transport with units inside, dealing a whopping 0 dps since it's trying to shoot the loaded squads (and can't be fixed by telling it to shoot the transport I might add). The lascannon Rhino delivers its damage in big punches. This has, is, and likely always will be, preferable to a continuous stream of damage. You also seem to be forgetting the 23 dps storm bolter that the Rhino has by default, and keeps with both upgrades.

Plus Rhino with las comes to a grand total of 350/60 compared to the 360/90 of the Falcon. You're paying an extra thirty power for a modest av boost and a bit more ai capability. Nor do you get the T2 smoke ability.

But at the end of the day, those points are fairly moot altogether considering they're two different factions being supported in two different ways.

[HARRYY]

well, regarding eldar onfield-reinforcments - it makes banshees exceptional deadly!! Falcon definately is NOT the common "Transport".
T3 Falcon? IMO best tank ever for several reasons. Maybe mostly because I like FS and her spells work so decently on him. Also the FS' gate-ability.


Anyway offtopic, good we can agree on FOTM

[Kvn]

well, regarding eldar onfield-reinforcments - it makes banshees exceptional deadly!! Falcon definately is NOT the common "Transport".
T3 Falcon? IMO best tank ever for several reasons.

Tell that to a Slugga Trukk. Banshees in a reinforce chain off the Falcon isn't anywhere near as efficient, especially given their Exarch goes down pretty much guaranteed in that situation.

Also, I'd like to introduce you to my friend, the Leman Russ.

[HARRYY]

well, regarding eldar onfield-reinforcments - it makes banshees exceptional deadly!! Falcon definately is NOT the common "Transport".
T3 Falcon? IMO best tank ever for several reasons.

Tell that to a Slugga Trukk. Banshees in a reinforce chain off the Falcon isn't anywhere near as efficient, especially given their Exarch goes down pretty much guaranteed in that situation.

Also, I'd like to introduce you to my friend, the Leman Russ.

lets not skip to wartrukk and LR now ^^ cheers

[Forestradio]

A 500hp transport that also has 28 venom cannon DPS at speed 8 along with 40+ piercing DPS, with a T3 upgrade that at minimum DOUBLES its hp up to a potential 1416 total HP at level 4. That can also soft-counter enemy transport play and force them to get AV. The GK Rhino can get the 23.57 DPS lascannon upgrade, but limits it as strictly AV for 15 power while the Falcon's pulse laser alone has 5 more DPS against vehicles AND infantry, and with 42 DPS against HI.

This is a collection of numbers that tells us what about their balance? pretty much nothing

Units should be evaluated in the context of the roster in which they are found, not compared side by side with units from other factions. Also, units should have deliberate differences otherwise the game becomes stale and loses its appeal, as was already stated by Toilailee.

FD spam is a thing and i know I'm not the only one who thinks so. I really hope more people speak up about it.

Fire dragons are countered by plasma weaponry. So defeat a fire dragon spam with a plasma weaponry spam.

- spells like guide, or any other FS speel makes them incredibly hard to deal with.
- warlock&WSE globals are gold on them , too.

If the support abilities make them perform too well, nerf the support abilities. In the same way that if you believe ASM perform too well with the apo, you should nerf the apo heal and not the asm themselves.

[Psycho]

This is a collection of numbers that tells us what about their balance? pretty much nothing

A unit that combines soft anti-all along with what comes from a transport with potentially insane late-game survivability, when other factions with the exception of GK would need two units out to have AV and transport capabilites is not what I'd consider what Kvn called a simple '500hp transport', and I'd not base whether it's cheap or not on that single detail alone.

You said it yourself, "Units should be evaluated in the context of the roster in which they are found", and that's precisely what I did concerning Kvn's claim that the falcon was just a transport instead of having multiple other uses in the context of where and how it can be used. IG transports =/= SM transports =/= Eldar transports =/= GK transports =/= Ork transports.

[Codex]

Let's try to move this falcon point on quickly or make a separate thread for it please.

[Cyris]

I kindda like the idea to increase FD power cost. And/or reduce base movespeed but return it when the ability is active. And/or move the leader to T3.

Clear over-performance at various patches aside, I like what FD bring to Eldar. A fragile, but quick and hard hitting unit with a clear weaknesses (short range, HI armor). I especially like how they opened up T1 builds by providing a strong AV damage source, allowing non-shuri builds to be a thing and reducing the need to get BL upgrade on Shuri. I also really like that they have no snare, so are not a 1 and done AV source against enemies who play cautiously with their vehicles once they hit the field.

Their lack of actual frailty was a problem (and might still be? haven't played with or against them much lately) and anti-all weaponry does make me sad. I wish they could deal roughly the same damage against vehicles, and like 20-30% less to other targets. But it's also not ideal to have so many different damage types in the game, so meh.

Ultimately, I do like the power cost increase idea instead of other nerfs (if needed at all). Higher power means being stuck in T2 more, which seems a reasonable price for getting such a versatile unit. As others hav mentioned, their resistance to melee and damage vs all targets (including gens!) is very potent. Other AV options exist in the roster, and the BL Shuri is super power light, so there's options there.

Moving to T3 would make them lose the reason I think they are a good addition (T1 build diversity) so ick to that. If anything, move their leader there maybe - he's a HUGE upgrade for cheap right now. A lot of extra HP as Crew pointed out, the range increase and ability unlock.

[Black Maw]

FD spam is a thing and i know I'm not the only one who thinks so. I really hope more people speak up about it.

Fire dragons are countered by plasma weaponry. So defeat a fire dragon spam with a plasma weaponry spam.

Yeh, i do get that that is what I'm supposed to be doing but I'm really having problems laying that damage down without spending too much or having something like MoT CSM disrupted and then melted too quick to make it a fair fight. FDs are still tough and can kite just about anything to avoid damage while other units come in. I'm a Chaos player mainly so i can only really speak for that context.

Fully upgraded MoT are gunna beat FDs fairly comfortably but they cost a butt load. When two FD's come out, that cost difference becomes huge, especially since it's very uncommon to go 2 x CSM against Eldar, although i have been seeing it in replays recently. So i guess it's better to not upgrade them fully? Like maybe just get EW + MoT? Even so, FD's have a speed advantage to hit-and-run and can't be knocked down while you are slow and can be knocked down. It's so hard to force a retreat when they can just walk away from you instead.

I have found a combo of Bloodletters + Tics and MoT CSM pretty effective but that is just too many resources too spend to counter one unit. I keep feeling like i need to spend so much to counter them while they are so cheap. And when two come out on the field it's a nightmare! I've tried using chains and that works amazingly well but all the other sorcerer war gear is better against Eldar. The CL gets focused fire since he's so slow, even with Khorne worship he takes big damage and can be kited easy peasy and the plague champ... I got nothing. Really.

What other source of plasma should i be using? How can i maximise its effectiveness? Maybe Daemon shield to make the dps difference bigger? Subjecting them is devastating to your opponent but that's T3.

When you play Chaos, what do you do? Halp meh

[Oddnerd]

With the last patch I haven't had a single game against FD where I felt they were too strong for their cost.

[Forestradio]

Yeh, i do get that that is what I'm supposed to be doing but I'm really having problems laying that damage down without spending too much or having something like MoT CSM disrupted and then melted too quick to make it a fair fight. FDs are still tough and can kite just about anything to avoid damage while other units come in. I'm a Chaos player mainly so i can only really speak for that context.

As is the case with a lot of eldar t2 units (and one of the things that makes their t2 so interesting to play and fight against imo) is that they excel at devastating enemies who are caught out of position. But if you can catch the eldar out of position you can inflict some pretty devastating damage yourself.

Fully upgraded MoT are gunna beat FDs fairly comfortably but they cost a butt load. When two FD's come out, that cost difference becomes huge, especially since it's very uncommon to go 2 x CSM against Eldar, although i have been seeing it in replays recently. So i guess it's better to not upgrade them fully? Like maybe just get EW + MoT? Even so, FD's have a speed advantage to hit-and-run and can't be knocked down while you are slow and can be knocked down. It's so hard to force a retreat when they can just walk away from you instead.

You should have 1 csm squad leftover from t1. So right away that's one source of MoT.
If you find yourself facing another FD squad right away, buy another csm squad. And get MoT on it.
Buying the aspiring champion is your choice, you may prefer to save up for another t2 unit, get wargear or something like a shrine, all entirely up to you.

I have found a combo of Bloodletters + Tics and MoT CSM pretty effective but that is just too many resources too spend to counter one unit. I keep feeling like i need to spend so much to counter them while they are so cheap. And when two come out on the field it's a nightmare! I've tried using chains and that works amazingly well but all the other sorcerer war gear is better against Eldar. The CL gets focused fire since he's so slow, even with Khorne worship he takes big damage and can be kited easy peasy and the plague champ... I got nothing. Really.

As plague champion you can slow down the fire dragons with the bile spewer, if you purchased it in t1. Chains of torment can also prevent shees from closing in on your ranged csm. Autocannons also deal devastating damage to fire dragons (and everything rofl).

What other source of plasma should i be using? How can i maximise its effectiveness? Maybe Daemon shield to make the dps difference bigger? Subjecting them is devastating to your opponent but that's T3.

I wouldn't bother with daemon shield against eldar except perhaps in 3v3, the other two armors will always be better.
The rod of warpfire deals plasma cannon damage, so it's devastating to any HI that it hits.
Maximize your effectiveness by using worship, especially as the cl/sorc. If you can get some solid hits off on the FD before their dps starts to pile on, you will force them off.

When you play Chaos, what do you do? Halp meh

Couple of 2v2s here, you may need to run myrdal's replay updater as they were played a while ago. The principle will be the same in 1v1 really, utilize worship and your globals+wargear correctly in order to keep the pressure on.
https://www.dawnofwar.info/esl/match/18174641
https://www.dawnofwar.info/esl/match/18760999

Another possibility is to use flanking khorne marines, since they are just 0.5 speed slower than FD and can keep up pretty well, as well as having power melee that will really tear up FD if they catch them. But I haven't really tried kcsm against eldar when they get FD, I do think kcsm can perform very well against eldar, just don't have any replays for you.