Levitation Field

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Paranoid Kamikaze
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Levitation Field

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Mon 07 Nov, 2022 10:01 pm

Seems that you can cast it while knocked down, which is overpowered. You can't chain knockback while dpsing to deal with the Farseer because of this. Add a casting time or something so it can be countered.
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Torpid
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby Torpid » Wed 16 Nov, 2022 2:25 pm

What even is this line of logic.

Are you oblivious to the multiple tracking high special attacks on the FC w/ thunderhammer that synergise with kb immune fc?

Or the other 10+ abilities that trigger whilst the hero is being knocked over and that unlike lev field don't immobilise the hero in question...
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Wed 16 Nov, 2022 7:20 pm

Torpid wrote:What even is this line of logic.

Are you oblivious to the multiple tracking high special attacks on the FC w/ thunderhammer that synergise with kb immune fc?

Or the other 10+ abilities that trigger whilst the hero is being knocked over and that unlike lev field don't immobilise the hero in question...

The line of logic is that things need counters.

You can counter the FC with ranged spam while slowing it with suppression. BC is supposed to make him knockback immune so that's fine.

Which abilities are you specifically talking about? I mean the ones that can wipe units and not the defensive ones like Librarian Quickening.
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Broodwich
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby Broodwich » Wed 16 Nov, 2022 10:12 pm

maybe you should try that on the farseer
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Wed 16 Nov, 2022 10:19 pm

Broodwich wrote:maybe you should try that on the farseer


She's not a offensive commander like the FC. It makes sense to range him out, not her. Knocking her down and focusing should work on a support commander.
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Asmon
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby Asmon » Thu 17 Nov, 2022 9:29 pm

It's like Kill the weak or Drain Life Kami, hard to avoid unless you can bait it and it's alright as it is.

I hope it's not me who traumatized you with it :p
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby Dark Riku » Thu 17 Nov, 2022 10:06 pm

Asmon wrote:It's like Kill the weak or Drain Life Kami, hard to avoid unless you can bait it and it's alright as it is.
It's not like any of the above at all. Once you are stuck in a levitation field you're screwed.
Drain life for example got changed because it was very unfair. Once you are hit by the ability there is no counter play.
Yet here Levitation field still is with its very long duration and huge knocback spread.
Levitation should get changed just like other similar abilities got changed.
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby Bruce Campbell » Fri 18 Nov, 2022 1:05 pm

Dark Riku wrote:
Asmon wrote:It's like Kill the weak or Drain Life Kami, hard to avoid unless you can bait it and it's alright as it is.
It's not like any of the above at all. Once you are stuck in a levitation field you're screwed.
Drain life for example got changed because it was very unfair. Once you are hit by the ability there is no counter play.
Yet here Levitation field still is with its very long duration and huge knocback spread.
Levitation should get changed just like other similar abilities got changed.


I think its fine based on the fact Farseer cant retreat either while using it, and can often get her killed for that reason. The spread on the throw at the end of the ability often means the squad never gets wiped because you often dont have units everywhere the models have been thrown to finish them.

There is counter play to it, its called don't engage her in melee, Kinda like you would avoid doing it to thunder hammer FC which in like 99% of cases gets way more value than Gravity Blade ever does, you have to put more emphasis on controlling her with shit like setup teams or abilities from MCB or full Auto from Apo's bolter, crippling poison, aiming wotz dat etc. And in comparison to FC & CL she can be controlled easier because she can be supressed and she doesn't have a teleport ability

She should just be treated as a hero you shouldn't go melee builds against, like WB, PC, FC etc (or if you do go melee, just use your brain and avoid her as best as possible while controlling)

Time Field on the other hand is way more obnoxious, and should be deleted.
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Deuce Bigalow
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby Deuce Bigalow » Fri 18 Nov, 2022 3:34 pm

Yeah this one is in a tricky spot because on the one hand it is very powerful when it works. In T3, combined with guided seers and spiritual rites heal, and you can rip through terminators in no time. On the other hand, she can be knocked back before she cast it, she has to get up close to use it, and takes ranged fire while using it. Thus, there is counter play.

And I think Bruce is spot on with Time-Field, although I don't know if it should be deleted completely.

"Slows time around the targeted area in radius 16 for 10 seconds. All units but the Farseer herself have their speed reduced by 40% and cannot attack or use abilities. Range 40, cooldown 60 seconds."

10 Seconds is huge in an RTS where milliseconds matter, stacked on top of the fact that they can't attack or teleport out. Combine this with a haywire + prism and it is guaranteed to drop a predator, looted, or enemy prism. Or, add in nukes and singularity, or insane fire dragons with anti-all damage that can drop terminators and tanks when guided and chasing. Then they can switch to flamer and kill an entire gen farm in seconds. Playing with it is a mix of feelings because on the one hand you won, but you feel like it's winning with PEDs. Playing against it is maddening, because your opponent is obviously proud of their win that you know stands on slightly broken mechanics.

In T1, the Farseer performs adequately. In T2, when you add guide, doom, fortune, spiritual rites, levitation field, etc. stacked with a high dps eldar army, she gets kind of insane.

Take guide alone, which she gets out-of-the-gate:

Increases the range and damage of an allied infantry unit by 30% for 10 seconds. Range 30, cooldown 30 seconds.

and compare it to the WSE global crack shot, which you have to pay 50 red to use:

Increase the ranged damage output of a targeted infantry squad by 25% and weapon range by 7 for 25 seconds. Cooldown 50 seconds.

Rarely do I see people do this, but she can stack a guided brightlance and use her farsight global to get insane range to wipe vehicles. Combined with the arc of fire being so wide on the Brightlance, it gets a bit lulzy. I have used that combination to wipe vehicles that were all the way in the enemy base!

-Kickin
Last edited by Deuce Bigalow on Fri 18 Nov, 2022 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Asmon
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby Asmon » Fri 18 Nov, 2022 7:04 pm

Deuce Bigalow wrote:Yeah this one is in a tricky spot because on the one hand it is very powerful when it works. She can even stop the FC while his battlecry is active, effectively nullifying the hammer.


No she cannot. Nothing can stop a battlecrying FC. Ofc don't start BC after you got stuck in the air...

In the same vein if you were doing a special attack or any locked animation at the beginning of the Levitation field, you won't get grabbed and you can walk out of it.

Riku we disagree.
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Fri 18 Nov, 2022 9:39 pm

Deuce Bigalow wrote:Yeah this one is in a tricky spot because on the one hand it is very powerful when it works. She can even stop the FC while his battlecry is active, effectively nullifying the hammer. In T3, combined with guided seers and spiritual rites heal, and you can rip through terminators in no time. On the other hand, she can be knocked back before she cast it, she has to get up close to use it, and takes ranged fire while using it. Thus, there is counter play.


No, she can cast it while knocked back. That is the problem.

Asmon wrote:
Deuce Bigalow wrote:Yeah this one is in a tricky spot because on the one hand it is very powerful when it works. She can even stop the FC while his battlecry is active, effectively nullifying the hammer.


No she cannot. Nothing can stop a battlecrying FC. Ofc don't start BC after you got stuck in the air...


The BC description says he's immune to knockback, but he's not immune. Autarch leaping into him and knocking him down for instance.
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Deuce Bigalow
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby Deuce Bigalow » Fri 18 Nov, 2022 10:22 pm

Actually just labbed it with a friend and confirmed that Asmon is correct, the FC is not affected by Levitation Field while battle cry is active.

The wargear is still overperforming in my opinion, mostly because of the long period that units are in the air, disabled, and taking damage from support. They will take damage from grenades in this state as well. The icing on the cake is that they are thrown away at the end. You would think it's a T3 gear based on what it can do.
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Fri 18 Nov, 2022 10:29 pm

Deuce Bigalow wrote:Actually just labbed it with a friend and confirmed that Asmon is correct, the FC is not affected by Levitation Field while battle cry is active.


Never said he wasn't on that. I was disagreeing with him saying nothing can stop a Battlecrying FC.
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Deuce Bigalow
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby Deuce Bigalow » Fri 18 Nov, 2022 10:36 pm

If you knock her back before she gets to you, then she wastes the cast. It doesn't track. And is vulnerable to ranged fire as well. I agree that it is strong, but the fact that she can cast it when knocked over isn't the issue imo.
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby Broodwich » Sat 19 Nov, 2022 1:43 am

I could concede a cost increase to the blade, or not throwing shit so far at the end. The throwing at the end is what kills terminators, because it is basically as far as their teleport, on top of fucking up their cohesion, which then just makes them run around and get shot and chopped more

But like Bruce said, you can't just yolo her into an army like a teleporting FC, she gets dead real quick.
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Sat 19 Nov, 2022 6:20 am

Deuce Bigalow wrote:If you knock her back before she gets to you, then she wastes the cast. It doesn't track. And is vulnerable to ranged fire as well. I agree that it is strong, but the fact that she can cast it when knocked over isn't the issue imo.


Never mentioned anything about tracking. Tracking isn't really an issue considering how fast it comes out. If you knock her back with ASM's they're already in range.
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby Deuce Bigalow » Sat 19 Nov, 2022 2:27 pm

Well you are welcome to play Farseer against my or another high level Space Marine to get more experience in the matter. To my knowledge you only play SM which definitely limits perspective. Like Bruce said, it's strong but not to the extent that one can't adapt to it. Agree with Broodwich in the throw distance/cohesion factor.
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Sat 19 Nov, 2022 5:34 pm

Deuce Bigalow wrote:Well you are welcome to play Farseer against my or another high level Space Marine to get more experience in the matter. To my knowledge you only play SM which definitely limits perspective. Like Bruce said, it's strong but not to the extent that one can't adapt to it. Agree with Broodwich in the throw distance/cohesion factor.


I only play Apo because he's the easiest hero to play in the game. I used to main FC and Warlock in the before times.

I just want it to have counters. Lots of things are overpowered. A Sorc can put Chains behind your army and your ranged units can't turn around to shoot at the node for an example of something that has bad counters. A Sorc can Subjugate Termies and trap them, which is op, but you can just get a Libby and teleport them back as a counter.
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Asmon
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby Asmon » Sun 20 Nov, 2022 7:39 pm

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Never said he wasn't on that. I was disagreeing with him saying nothing can stop a Battlecrying FC.


Nothing should. The fact that a few leaps can still knock him down is due to those passive abilities being implemented with a different kind of knockback (not weapon nor ability). We party fixed it when we removed the leap from GU warlock but devs forgot about autarch and Seer concil.

I don't complain about it obviously, FC is powerful enough as it is.
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Mon 21 Nov, 2022 1:42 am

Asmon wrote:
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Never said he wasn't on that. I was disagreeing with him saying nothing can stop a Battlecrying FC.


Nothing should. The fact that a few leaps can still knock him down is due to those passive abilities being implemented with a different kind of knockback (not weapon nor ability). We party fixed it when we removed the leap from GU warlock but devs forgot about autarch and Seer concil.

I don't complain about it obviously, FC is powerful enough as it is.


Does the Warboss Stomp still do it? It's more that it's irritating that you get knocked down when it says you don't get knocked down.
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby LOCALgHOST » Mon 21 Nov, 2022 5:33 am

Broodwich wrote:I could concede a cost increase to the blade, or not throwing shit so far at the end. The throwing at the end is what kills terminators, because it is basically as far as their teleport, on top of fucking up their cohesion, which then just makes them run around and get shot and chopped more

But like Bruce said, you can't just yolo her into an army like a teleporting FC, she gets dead real quick.


the trick is - she don't need to act that way.

it's the other factions who NEED to reach your troops (i.e. guided brightlance or reapers, spiders, FP or whatever OMFG ranged DPS shit you have) and u just hit the button and watch them sliced by shees/ council - THATS the problem. and the thing this gear won't disabling your troops and the enemy can't retreat, and being throwed after these 10 seconds... :facepalm:
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby SarDauk » Wed 23 Nov, 2022 10:09 am

Bruce Campbell wrote:Time Field on the other hand is way more obnoxious, and should be deleted


It probably is too strong on his own, however it's still a t3 wargear so should be really powerful and is basically the only thing always worth to buy in t3 for Eldar except seers.
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Paranoid Kamikaze
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Re: Levitation Field

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Thu 24 Nov, 2022 6:24 pm

SarDauk wrote:
Bruce Campbell wrote:Time Field on the other hand is way more obnoxious, and should be deleted


It probably is too strong on his own, however it's still a t3 wargear so should be really powerful and is basically the only thing always worth to buy in t3 for Eldar except seers.


All of Eldars units and upgrades in T3 are awesome.

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