Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Chokolata
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Chokolata » Thu 16 Jun, 2022 12:25 pm

Honestly I would disagree that Eldar t1 is bad. My feel is that their t2 units are too expensive to buy/reinforce.

What I would like to see is reduction of WS and DR req costs from 440 to 400 (reinf adjusted as well) and Shuriken platforms to gain extra health when upgrading to bright lance. A requisition cost reduction to Dcannon wouldnt hurt either.

Regards,
Choko
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby LOCALgHOST » Sun 19 Jun, 2022 9:41 am

ws reinforce reduce = more spider spam hell
Venjitron
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Venjitron » Mon 20 Jun, 2022 7:09 pm

" requisition cost reduction to Dcannon wouldnt hurt either."
wtf do you mean dcannon is shite 400-40 for the slowest fire rate and dps in the game may as well spend 400-50 and get wraithguard
Chokolata
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Chokolata » Thu 23 Jun, 2022 8:24 am

@Venjitron: Tbh I would rather the D-Cannon be an upgrade to the Shuriken then a separate unit entirely. Hell maybe even move Wraithguards to t3 and buff them somehow.

I find Eldar gameplay dymanics pretty weird in elite mod. They have a very expansive tier 2 but a very limited tier 3. It sorely limits gameplay options regardless of balance concerns.

A couple of things I would do (and probably the people here would bash me for it):
- buff banshee exarch health from 240 base to 280-300
- buff guardian warlock detection radius a bit
- bright lance upgrade buffs Shuriken health from 675 to 750-825 ; it is a sustain fire/no burst and no snare AV (i know WS have snare, but so do other races and have AV team snare as well)
- D cannon entity removed, D cannon is upgrade to shuriken
- Dark reaper base cost reduced from 440/40 to 400/40; reinforce adjusted
- Fire Dragon base cost increased from 360 reg to 400 reg; dragon scale armor increases HP by 10-15% alongside KD immunity
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby PianoMan » Thu 23 Jun, 2022 11:24 am

Chokolata wrote:@Venjitron: Tbh I would rather the D-Cannon be an upgrade to the Shuriken then a separate unit entirely. Hell maybe even move Wraithguards to t3 and buff them somehow.

I find Eldar gameplay dymanics pretty weird in elite mod. They have a very expansive tier 2 but a very limited tier 3. It sorely limits gameplay options regardless of balance concerns.

A couple of things I would do (and probably the people here would bash me for it):
- buff banshee exarch health from 240 base to 280-300
- buff guardian warlock detection radius a bit
- bright lance upgrade buffs Shuriken health from 675 to 750-825 ; it is a sustain fire/no burst and no snare AV (i know WS have snare, but so do other races and have AV team snare as well)
- D cannon entity removed, D cannon is upgrade to shuriken
- Dark reaper base cost reduced from 440/40 to 400/40; reinforce adjusted
- Fire Dragon base cost increased from 360 reg to 400 reg; dragon scale armor increases HP by 10-15% alongside KD immunity

choko what about we play a best of 20, ill play only the current weakest eldar hero and you'll freely switch :)
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GuruSkippy
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby GuruSkippy » Thu 23 Jun, 2022 11:29 am

Chokolata wrote:- buff guardian warlock detection radius a bit

seriously choko...
Chokolata
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Chokolata » Thu 23 Jun, 2022 11:36 am

@PianoMan: sure on retail :)

besides, i knew right away that people will pop up like mushrooms with: omglolz u suckl2p let me show you how much I'm better etc. Yes you are i concede.

My issues with Eldar is that it is actually less versatile then in retail as in it is far more streamlined. Instead of throwing the glove in my face maybe just try to respond to why all of the suggestions are shite and change my mind so we can have a normal discussion. Or not. W/E

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Asmon
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Asmon » Thu 23 Jun, 2022 12:31 pm

Well it's getting harder and harder to use banshees effectively in T1, so indeed we see more of the same things with GU and shuri (both good) and rangers (who are still not cost efficient imo).

Still no WS melee upgrade makes me sad.
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Dark Riku » Thu 23 Jun, 2022 12:51 pm

Chokolata wrote:...Instead of throwing the glove in my face maybe just try to respond to why all of the suggestions are shite and change my mind so we can have a normal discussion. ...
The burden of proof does not lie with us Choko. It always lies with the person that wants things changed. But I'll try my best here with my personal view.

How is their T3 limited? It's bigger than retail. Seer council have been added for all heroes.
Imagine assault terminators purchasable from base for all commanders without red cost :)
And all the upgrades that become available in T3 for certain units. A T3 falcon is on a whole other level than a T2 one.

Why would the banshee exarch need more HP?
While the axarch is present and you use FoF you get a 50%! (HALF!) ranged damage reduction.
Almost nothing similar in T2 comes even close to that in terms of defense.
Closest thing we have is Swamp 'Em on sluggas for 40% ranged damage resistance.
And then we have the Fanaticism on the GK stormtroopers that gives invulnerability for 1.5 secs only though and it's on a ranged squad.
Also keep in mind they have more HP than they did in retail right away. Meaning certain engagements go more favorable for them from the start.
Once they get upgraded they also have more HP then their retail counterparts and they get an option for going for even more HP with the "new" aspect of fleetness.
Finally the exarch in Elite already has 240HP compared to 200.
Why would the exacrch need to be more tanky? Nothing points in the direction of shees underperforming.

It's already bullshit that guardians can detect come T2. On a squad leader you always want.
They become immune to mines. Better questions is why do they deserve this while other mainline ranged units do not?
Maybe it's better we revert this change.

Why does the birghlance deserve to become more tanky?
They already have so many traits over their counterparts.
Faster speed, strange combination of infantry and HI, they even stay relevant in fights with their alternate fire mode once the vehicles has been dealt with, very unvisible fire animation, and most importantly some disruption abilities don't work because of the weapons platform.

I don't even get why you would want to make the D cannon an upgrade. This would complicate things so much.
Like build times, different HP, mutually exclusive to the brightlance upgrade I'm assuming.
Seems fairly pointless.

Again. Why would dark reapers deserve a cost decrease?
They are an amazing ranged superiority unit with a bunch of abilities because Eldar :)
They have huge range and should be kept safe, their natural position is in your back lines.
If the enemy does manage to attack them then they should bleed you a little bit.

Again why do the fire dragons need a cost increase? They need to get up close to do their damage and will most likely cause too much bleed otherwise.
Dragon scale is already amazing. If you're going to add more HP, reducing their bleed it will need a big cost increase.
We still want to be able to have counterplay to the firedragons so I would rather not change it at all.
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GuruSkippy
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby GuruSkippy » Thu 23 Jun, 2022 1:36 pm

Dark Riku wrote:It's already bullshit that guardians can detect come T2. On a squad leader you always want.
They become immune to mines. Better questions is why do they deserve this while other mainline ranged units do not?
Maybe it's better we revert this change.

That was the main point of giving detection to warlock, because eldars are forced to go rangers to counter mines without it.
That's why it's short range, and shouldn't be increased.
The only thing I hate with this, is that warlock doesn't add the eye icon, I always forget they can detect now.

And I'd also like to have 15 range detection on OM T2 acolyte IST for the exact same reason btw.

Anyway, it's so fun to have lots of old retail players around :) I also played vs norni a few days ago.
Time to have an 'old retail competitive players only' tournament !

But yeah, choko, play more and play other races. Id' say you're not back to your level yet.


and about your propositions :
- shee exarch, I never felt she was weak. 20hp buff would be my max, otherwise would need a cost increase.
- brightlance, same as shee exarch. Never add the feeling it was weak. 25hp buff would be my max. (but then again, for me, shee exarch and brightlance are fine right now)
- shuriken upgrade to d-cannon, ok, this one, I don't mind. As long as the upgrade is exclusive with brightlance upgrade.
- firedragon and reaper, no opinion. I'm retail brainwashed, I never buy these units.
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Chokolata » Thu 23 Jun, 2022 2:48 pm

@Dark Riku:

Guardians: I am unsure why they can detect in the first place, but I suppose it has something to do with the limitations ranger have as the only detector. Perhaps they do not need detection at all but an alternative detector could become available sometime later in the game (Reaper exarch or Seers for example)

Banshees: Banshees seem different to retail as in the are cheaper but worse to chase down units. Also the health pool shift between base and upgrade but i digress. There is an obvious shift in role between retail and elite where they are more of a front unit then a reservist (not sure if I can explain it correctly). In comparison to sluggas, they scale far worse then them and stluggas have a natural upgrade with the cheap Trukk which Eldar simply do not. Also the transport efficient alternative in the Webways is nerfed to 75 red per pop and you need at least 2 of those; would be better if the HQ was the first WW.

Brightlance: TBH we can agree to disagree here. IMHO the BL is crap. It is better that you can upgrade it in Elite compared to Retail but both the shurikens and the BL are worse in elite then in retail (shuri more expensive, BL more fragile)

TBH, overall I think as if Eldar are worse off relative to other races compared to retail unless you play strictly as indended. I suppose it is by design.
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Dark Riku
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Dark Riku » Thu 23 Jun, 2022 3:06 pm

Most races only have 1 detector. Why does Eldar deserve a 2nd one? I don't think they do.
Only exceptions being Orks (T3 though) and Tyranids with their warriors but that's fine, asymmetrical and all, they don't have vehciles, etc.

Gates are extremely good. Being able to transport your entire army in an instant is just so valuable.
And they are all infiltrated too... Unlike in retail. And all have a unique ability.

The BL has the exact same health as the shurycan in retail. Same as in Elite. Upside in Elite is once T2 your T1 shurycan might already have a level.
So that argument makes no sense at all. In fact it's just plain false.
Shurycan more expensive? You're talking about the +10req to make it the same as all other weapon teams? XD
While arguably still being the best setupteam because it's faster, not all disruptions works on it, etc.

You think they are worse because they don't delete full HP squads without any effort anymore.
That gameplay was toxic and Eldar can still pull off wipes that no other races can do.
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Chokolata » Thu 23 Jun, 2022 4:07 pm

Brightlances have 825 health in retail iirc.
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby GuruSkippy » Thu 23 Jun, 2022 4:11 pm

Thibix Magnus
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Thibix Magnus » Thu 23 Jun, 2022 5:37 pm

didn't play for some years so no idea about current balance, but I hear often nowadays that eldar T3 is weak. Which would be a pitty, it's not fun to feel forced to close the game in T2, long games and comebacks are fun, it would be a shame if they are disincentivized for eldar. It kind of miss the feeling of early dow2 where you bled so much you spent the whole game dodging fights, until you reached T3 which was (before chaos rising!) maybe the best around. It felt very fitting to the faction (though far from balanced).

Without trying to buff the faction overall, maybe they could use some tier rebalance, shifting some power around? For example, increase guardian price to 300 so bleed is a bit more punished compared to shootas - which would be fitting for the faction. Aspect infantry could start weaker but level up better than now, to emphasize the training dedication and the focus on preservation. Other possible "power shifts" could be making the autarch executioner T3 and heavy melee, and of course WG T3 and SHI.

In T3 a more ambitious option that I thought for years would be an upgrade to grav tanks with star engines, allowing for temporary speed boosts -if not jumps!- to make them more loreful and support well-timed flanking (it could have cautionary drawbacks like weapon deactivation for the duration to avoid easy FP snipes on retreating vehicles, energy requirement competing with falcon shield, backward move impossible for the duration so it requires anticipation to use as fallback). The optional upgrade could start expensive to stay safe. Other T3 buffs could include slight buff to avatar melee and to wrath of khaine. Also the D-cannon should be looked at, the change to DoT years ago meant it became more focused into a single purpose - offensive artillery against an entreched position - when previously it was more generalist, notably as AV complement. I could see a return to its previous firing pattern and visual, but less bursty to offer more counterplay.

I agree the banshee exarch feels like the most exposed squad learder in the game but to me it's more frustrating than really UP, given her other bonuses.
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Bruce Campbell » Thu 23 Jun, 2022 6:30 pm

Dark Riku wrote:Most races only have 1 detector. Why does Eldar deserve a 2nd one? I don't think they do.
Only exceptions being Orks (T3 though) and Tyranids with their warriors but that's fine, asymmetrical and all, they don't have vehciles, etc.

Gates are extremely good. Being able to transport your entire army in an instant is just so valuable.
And they are all infiltrated too... Unlike in retail. And all have a unique ability.

The BL has the exact same health as the shurycan in retail. Same as in Elite. Upside in Elite is once T2 your T1 shurycan might already have a level.
So that argument makes no sense at all. In fact it's just plain false.
Shurycan more expensive? You're talking about the +10req to make it the same as all other weapon teams? XD
While arguably still being the best setupteam because it's faster, not all disruptions works on it, etc.

You think they are worse because they don't delete full HP squads without any effort anymore.
That gameplay was toxic and Eldar can still pull off wipes that no other races can do.


Id be fine with Eldar having only one detector. As long as its Guardians and not Rangers.
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Chokolata » Thu 23 Jun, 2022 6:34 pm

From what I see, it would be difficult to enable some Eldar tier 3 units to perform well in 1v1 as they perform really well in team games(Prisms).

That leaves other units to look at, both the scaling of tier 2 into tier 3 and tier 3 built units.
- reapers scale well with the extra damage upgrade
- WS peak in tier 2, but the overall consensus is that they are fine as a unit
- FD peak in tier 2, perhaps giving them a tier 3 upgrade to make them able to take on tier 3 tanks a bit better ?? (they are super strong in tier 2 though)
- WG are.... meh imho.... perhaps we can look at this
- Seers are great units overall
- Falcons and WLs are great and have great upgrades. I personally dislike Falcons as tier 2 units but that is my problem
- Prisms are weak in 1v1 on half the maps and usable on the other half, but they seem to excel in team games (or so I'm told)

So out all units that are built in tier 2 and 3 we can possible, if going by the previous posters opinion of tier 3 being a bit weaker:
- scale FDs into tier 3 via an additional upgrade
- improve the WG upgrade to provide extra health/bit of damage reduction
- perhaps adjust reaper cost a bit

All of this is IF the tier 3 seems weaker. Personally I think it has limited options in 1v1s.

Choko
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby LOCALgHOST » Fri 24 Jun, 2022 1:28 pm

you desperately need to play vs Eldar as other races, choko.
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby IntoTheRain » Fri 24 Jun, 2022 7:07 pm

..I guess I'll be another mediocre player to throw my hat into the ring.

Most of these comments are toward design, rather than balance, but whatever. I don't expect them to make any headway, but I wanted to say them anyway.

QUICK NOTE ABOUT VEHICLES:
- I think the game should consider making vehicles more useful. Its rare to ever have more than 1, extremely rare to have more than 2, and often correct to have none at all. We have a tier where they basically don't even exist, and the one that does is mostly problematic because there are no good AV weapons in T1 and IG Field Repair is ridiculous.
- On that note, I'd like to see field repair require T2 and bases heal vehicles at the same rate as infantry. (2% a sec I believe) Then rebalance as needed. This would open Guard up for a redesign while still letting them keep their Sentinal. Furthmore, it opens up the possibility of adding more light vehicles into T1 and some light AV to accompany it. Opening up more playstyles for each race.
- Additionally, vehicle upkeep costs are insanely high, to the point that their intended advantage - free req bleed - basically never comes to pass. This is on top of the fact that many late game infantry are just as powerful as vehicles but can still cap, and don't struggle with the wonky vehicle movement and turret tracking.

ELDAR T1:
I think Eldar T1 is fine, but I agree with the comment that thematically it makes very little sense how many matchups Eldar are hiding behind Shruikens. It doesn't fit the faction identity at all. While I don't want to go back to the Dark Reaper spam and FoF toggling of DoW1, some mobile firepower would be far more in line with the factions theme. Ideally one that doesn't overshadow the other T1 options the way Reapers did and instead compliments them. The Support Platforms could then be moved to T2, and an alterative (and more situational) T1 suppression platform can be added.

I also agree that the detector always should have been Guardian Warlocks. Too many of the infiltrators are also detectors, and it creates a really annoying shell game. Rangers will still fulfill the role of spotter, scouting positions out ahead of attacks or else giving vision to Fire Prisms and D-Cannons late game. Different vision ranges is a really underutilized mechanic in DoW2 imo, and the game should lean into it more.

ELDAR T2:
The big design problems with Eldar to me though are in T2. With the addition of Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers, you now have 4 Shooting infantry types all vying for a role. Its really overcrowded, and I think the devs should look at moving some of those units up or down a tier. Specifically I think that Wraithguard now make more sense as a T3 unit. It would give Eldar T3 a mobile ranged hitter, and make WS, FD and DR more attractive in T2.

Additionally, I think the devs might consider putting Dark Reapers in T1 as noted above. I'd do some reworks here to give them heavy weapon setup like Rangers and Suppression Team range, moving them into more of a long range fire support role to not overlap too much with Guardians. Their support abilities could be reworked as well, giving them limited suppression options or possibly the Exarch comes with a Shruiken Cannon.

ELDAR T3:
T3 is ok in my mind. Seer Council is quite good, although I wish there was a way to differentiate its role further from Banshees. The Avatar is ok as a unit, but great for the aura. Fire Prism is no Leman Russ, but its alright. D-Cannon is...there.

Some more specific unit ideas:

WARP SPIDERS:
- New Ability - Spider's Lair: Throws a trap on the ground that slows enemies in its AOE.
- Cut jump recharge rate in half
- Nerf damage from 30 to 25
- Buff upkeep from 10 to ~7


Like so many other units in this game, they are mediocre by themselves and become more and more powerful as you get more and more of them. I'd like to see some of their raw power turned into utility. It would allow their upkeep costs to be reduced to saner levels, and make single squads feel more useful. Eldar also only have one real gadget squad right now, Rangers, and outside of kinetic blasts and stealth fields, very little combo potential. With that in mind:

Warp Spiders would still perform the anti-melee role, but go about it in a different way. Instead they can now act as an impromptu suppression team, or even throw the ability into a melee, allowing their own squad to escape. The lower upkeep would make them more practical to get, while the reduced damage and jumps would limit their potential in groups.

D-CANNON:
- Singularity range increased to 82. Warp Tear affect now applies for 5s where the singularity was cast.
- auto attack removed.


I'm of the opinion that every race should have something like the Manticore in their roster to help break fortified positions. Preferably via dedicated ability rather than auto attacks. The D-Cannon likewise has an amazing ability, but frustrating auto attack. I'd like to see the platform refocused entirely on the ability, using it to break fortified positions or shut down large blobs. With that in mind:

FALCON:
- Forward Reinforce Point Removed
- Movespeed increased from 7 to 8
- Jump ability added. Range 50, Min Range 15.
- T3 Upgrade cost increased from 100/30 to 150/50. T3 upgrade now lets the Falcon reinforce in the Field.


The Falcon just doesn't feel like a Falcon. Tabletop version when DoW2 came out matched a Predator Destructor in Firepower, (arguably even outgunned it) was twice as fast, and similar in toughness while still carrying a squad. But because they wanted to give everybody a reinforce point, they had to make the Falcon fit. Now the 'speed' faction has the slowest transports in the game, so it mostly serves as a gunship with forward reinforce capability.

With these changes, the Falcon would lean more into its transportation and gunship roles, but Eldar forward reinforce would take a big hit. Falcons could now Leap Banshees into close combat without them getting shot up on the way in, or be used to go gen bashing with Fire Dragons. Ranged squads like Dark Reapers and Wraithguard could use a Falcon to hide in when the enemy gets to close and then quickly reposition them at max range.

I'd honestly like to go further with the T3 upgrade, turning it into something similar in power to a Tank while the Fire Prism provides support from behind it, but these changes are enough for now, and do a good job of getting the point across.

BRIGHT LANCE PLATFORM:
- Damage lowered from 90 to 80.
- Each hit of the Bright Lance applies a 10% scorch effect, stacking up to 5 times. (effect lasts 5 seconds, and is refreshed if hit again)
- Scorch effect applies even if the attack misses.
- Scorch Ability Removed.


Coming from DoW1, Scorch is just disappointing. Its gone from a 75% damage boost *with* the auto attack damage to an optional 20% buff.

I'd actually like an effect like this on all Bright Lances, giving them inferior damage to other AT weapons, but great scaling with each other and strong supporting potential.


There are further changes I would consider, but I think I'm pushing beyond what anyone would consider anyway.

I'm not going to pretend I think all of this would be balanced. Its mostly more to suggest alternative ideas and open the game to new builds and strategies. I'd like to see something similar to this for all the factions really. Elite Mod isn't really just a balance patch anymore and has slowly moved to becoming its own game. With the introduction of OM, its become a standalone game as far as I'm concerned, and shouldn't let historical designs from DoW: Retribution limit it.
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Broodwich » Sat 25 Jun, 2022 7:16 am

IntoTheRain wrote:QUICK NOTE ABOUT VEHICLES:
- I think the game should consider making vehicles more useful.


And like that you've lost me
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