Is OM a completed Faction?

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Qman
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Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby Qman » Fri 13 May, 2022 7:55 am

It's a very subjective idea

I like the 40k game but I don't know the details about the setting, so please understand that
Compared to SM and CSM is the most similar

OM is an elite mode original faction, so the unit balance seems strange
It might be because they're specialized in close-up attacks and they're in the same unit, but I'll tell you what I think

- Operatives are like an unnecessary unit, their primary weapon is a shotgun, but they don't have knockback skills
It is the only detection unit in OM, and its ability should be given to the Stormtrooper's squad leader,
the Smoke Grenade should be owned by Rhino, and the Melta bomb should be possessed by the Interceptor squad

- Let the purifier be an upgrade unit of the strike squad, not a production unit(Same thing in the post below)
Strike Squad and Purifier are units that perform the same role with different skills, only the Purifier is tougher.
You can think of it as an upgrade unit instead of a production unit for stunguard and vanguard veterans.

- Crusaders are an ambiguous unit. You can draw from Tier 1, but the actual time you can draw is about Tier 2,
and the skills can be used after upgrading to Tier 3.

-Terminator wields a heavy-military hammer, and Paladin uses a power weapon halberd.
OM, who lacks anti-armor weapons, thinks that the Terminator should have a heavy military.

- It would have been nice to have a Chaplains with unit buff ability and healing aura instead of a Librarian

I haven't played elite mode much, but it looks like this

Usually SM and CSM are popular and win rate is good, right? OM is not, I think the reason is the balance of the units
TSM's various war gear, CSM's powerful upgrade
Scout's shotgun, heretics self-destruct, worship
Even if you go to Tier 2, SM and CSM have many options depending on the situation, but for OM, Dreadnought and Assassin are the best, so if you're in a hurry, you'll need Rhino's Lascannon.
Tier 3... Even orcs have tanks

If it differs from my opinion, just think of it as a complaint from a noob
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SarDauk
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Re: Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby SarDauk » Sat 14 May, 2022 6:06 pm

You know there is a HI faction with:- shotguns that do KB
- default squad leader having detection
- jump squad having melta bomb
- a tank in t3
- a marine squad which can be upgraded into a new unit in t2
- a hero with healing aura
- terminators with heavy melee
- no operatives

This faction is called Space marines so why do you want OM to be exactly the same instead of playing them ?
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Re: Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby Qman » Sun 15 May, 2022 8:26 am

SarDauk wrote:You know there is a HI faction with:- shotguns that do KB
- default squad leader having detection
- jump squad having melta bomb
- a tank in t3
- a marine squad which can be upgraded into a new unit in t2
- a hero with healing aura
- terminators with heavy melee
- no operatives

This faction is called Space marines so why do you want OM to be exactly the same instead of playing them ?

--------------------------------------------------------------
So, do you think OM's unit and skill composition are good now?
Do you think the Strike squad in Tier 2 is on the same level as TSM and CSM?

I think it doesn't matter if OM is similar to Space Marine's composition, it's the same faction in the first place, only the chapters are different
And it's not the same, it's similar, it has OM's unique melee attack and Psychic concept.

-All other camps have t3 tanks, so I thought of them and tried them. If Gray Knight is a faction that doesn't have tanks, no complaints.
-Healing Aura was originally used in Paladin, so I thought about putting it into another unit.
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Dark Riku
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Re: Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby Dark Riku » Sun 15 May, 2022 1:47 pm

I just want to point out that OM do have a T3 tank.
If you don't have your facts straight then I wouldn't expect much helpful response.

In a nutshell. You want factions to be different. What's the point otherwise?
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Re: Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby Qman » Sun 15 May, 2022 2:18 pm

Dark Riku wrote:I just want to point out that OM do have a T3 tank.
If you don't have your facts straight then I wouldn't expect much helpful response.

In a nutshell. You want factions to be different. What's the point otherwise?


Was the Vortimer Razorback a tank? I thought it was a vehicle that took the place of the tank.

That's right, I want factions to be different.
do you want OM not to change?
Paranoid Kamikaze
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Re: Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Sun 15 May, 2022 6:26 pm

Strike Squad is very strong.
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Re: Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby Qman » Mon 16 May, 2022 12:30 am

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Strike Squad is very strong.


strong in tier 1
But after tier 2 it's like Chaos Heretics with squad leader

Compare it with TSM and CSM, which are units in the same class
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Re: Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Mon 16 May, 2022 2:09 am

Qman wrote:
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Strike Squad is very strong.


strong in tier 1
But after tier 2 it's like Chaos Heretics with squad leader

Compare it with TSM and CSM, which are units in the same class


No, they're also incredibly strong in T2. Stronger than TSM or CSM.
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Re: Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby Qman » Mon 16 May, 2022 2:56 am

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:
Qman wrote:
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Strike Squad is very strong.


strong in tier 1
But after tier 2 it's like Chaos Heretics with squad leader

Compare it with TSM and CSM, which are units in the same class


No, they're also incredibly strong in T2. Stronger than TSM or CSM.


Here are the units
- TSM + Sergeant + Plasma gun
- TSM + Sergeant + Missile launcher
- Sternguard Veteran squad
- CSM + Aspiring Champion + Eternal War + Mark of Khorne
- CSM + Aspiring Champion + Eternal War + Mark of Tzeentch

And here's the Strike squad you mentioned
- Strike squad + Justicar + Tomes of Titan

Do you really think Strike squad is stronger than TSM and CSM?
Or did you not consider upgrading from Tier 2?
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Re: Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Mon 16 May, 2022 4:35 am

Qman wrote:
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:
Qman wrote:
strong in tier 1
But after tier 2 it's like Chaos Heretics with squad leader

Compare it with TSM and CSM, which are units in the same class


No, they're also incredibly strong in T2. Stronger than TSM or CSM.


Here are the units
- TSM + Sergeant + Plasma gun
- TSM + Sergeant + Missile launcher
- Sternguard Veteran squad
- CSM + Aspiring Champion + Eternal War + Mark of Khorne
- CSM + Aspiring Champion + Eternal War + Mark of Tzeentch

And here's the Strike squad you mentioned
- Strike squad + Justicar + Tomes of Titan

Do you really think Strike squad is stronger than TSM and CSM?
Or did you not consider upgrading from Tier 2?


Considered it all. Strike Squad is really good.
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Re: Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby Qman » Mon 16 May, 2022 5:48 am

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:
Qman wrote:
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:
No, they're also incredibly strong in T2. Stronger than TSM or CSM.


Here are the units
- TSM + Sergeant + Plasma gun
- TSM + Sergeant + Missile launcher
- Sternguard Veteran squad
- CSM + Aspiring Champion + Eternal War + Mark of Khorne
- CSM + Aspiring Champion + Eternal War + Mark of Tzeentch

And here's the Strike squad you mentioned
- Strike squad + Justicar + Tomes of Titan

Do you really think Strike squad is stronger than TSM and CSM?
Or did you not consider upgrading from Tier 2?


Considered it all. Strike Squad is really good.


As you said, the Strike squad is an OP unit.
But I don't understand. Can you explain how good it is?
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Re: Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Mon 16 May, 2022 6:16 pm

Qman wrote:
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:
Qman wrote:
Here are the units
- TSM + Sergeant + Plasma gun
- TSM + Sergeant + Missile launcher
- Sternguard Veteran squad
- CSM + Aspiring Champion + Eternal War + Mark of Khorne
- CSM + Aspiring Champion + Eternal War + Mark of Tzeentch

And here's the Strike squad you mentioned
- Strike squad + Justicar + Tomes of Titan

Do you really think Strike squad is stronger than TSM and CSM?
Or did you not consider upgrading from Tier 2?


Considered it all. Strike Squad is really good.


As you said, the Strike squad is an OP unit.
But I don't understand. Can you explain how good it is?


They have 1796 health with upgrades and 2392 when lvl 4

144 melee dps and 192 when lvl 4. Justicar is also has power weapon

Energy Burst can be used be used to stop a unit from running or so you can run. Essentially you can choose your engagements

Energy Burst can also be used against commanders who use their energy to stop them using abilities. Against an energy shield that 1 energy is 5 health Energy Burst essentially does 200 damage

Banishment is a ranged burst and can half heath many squads with the click of a button

You can get 2 or more Strike Squads to abuse Energy Burst and Banishment

These guys are more like the T3 Vanguard ASM's except they can't jump but get cool abilities and are in T2
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Re: Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby Qman » Tue 17 May, 2022 2:12 am

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:
Qman wrote:
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:
Considered it all. Strike Squad is really good.


As you said, the Strike squad is an OP unit.
But I don't understand. Can you explain how good it is?


They have 1796 health with upgrades and 2392 when lvl 4

144 melee dps and 192 when lvl 4. Justicar is also has power weapon

Energy Burst can be used be used to stop a unit from running or so you can run. Essentially you can choose your engagements

Energy Burst can also be used against commanders who use their energy to stop them using abilities. Against an energy shield that 1 energy is 5 health Energy Burst essentially does 200 damage

Banishment is a ranged burst and can half heath many squads with the click of a button

You can get 2 or more Strike Squads to abuse Energy Burst and Banishment

These guys are more like the T3 Vanguard ASM's except they can't jump but get cool abilities and are in T2


From Tier 2, high-fire power units and vehicle units began to appear.
Strike squads can't resist or get equal firepower, but TSM and CSM can, because they can be upgraded with missile launchers or power melee weapons.

It's funny to compare it to tier 3 Vanguard ASM, tier 3 has Nob squad, Seer Council
Vanguard ASMs can be well side-by-side with those units, but strike squads can't.
If it's like ASM without jumps, I understand (Good Skills, Power Weapon Squad Leader)

I'm saying strike squad can't function as enlisted cadre from tier 2
Energy Burst - Mana Burn and Slow
Banishment - Powerful damage to Horde Army
Both are good skills, but these two skills don't make the strike squad that strong.

I think Strike Squad is like Chaos Heretics, which is a little stronger from Tier 2.
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SarDauk
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Re: Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby SarDauk » Tue 17 May, 2022 3:23 am

You asked if OM was completed except you have already an opinion on the subject and no matter what we say you're right and we are wrong ?

(Just asking to gain some time)
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Qman
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Re: Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby Qman » Tue 17 May, 2022 4:08 am

SarDauk wrote:You asked if OM was completed except you have already an opinion on the subject and no matter what we say you're right and we are wrong ?

(Just asking to gain some time)


Do you think you don't need to touch the current OM configuration anymore?
Tell me what you think about OM, not me
I'm not going to insist that I'm right and you guys are wrong

So Do you agree that Strike squad is like Vanguard ASM without jumps?
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Re: Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby GuruSkippy » Tue 17 May, 2022 8:09 am

SSs are like ASMs vanguards without jump now ?
That would be purifiers for me.

I think you overestimate SSs guys, especially after the last range damage nerf.

And remember that OM doesn't have 6.5 speed T1 unit, or 1.5 capping speed T1 unit, or reinforce drop pod, or stenguard/vanguard mechanic. All these abilities help SM a lot with their bleed. OM has none of them. And also, their non dying last leaders are standard upkeep cost, when all other factions non dying last leaders have cheaper upkeep cost.
Losing SS members is super hard on req for them.
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Re: Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby Qman » Wed 18 May, 2022 12:15 am

GuruSkippy wrote:SSs are like ASMs vanguards without jump now ?
That would be purifiers for me.

I think you overestimate SSs guys, especially after the last range damage nerf.

And remember that OM doesn't have 6.5 speed T1 unit, or 1.5 capping speed T1 unit, or reinforce drop pod, or stenguard/vanguard mechanic. All these abilities help SM a lot with their bleed. OM has none of them. And also, their non dying last leaders are standard upkeep cost, when all other factions non dying last leaders have cheaper upkeep cost.
Losing SS members is super hard on req for them.


That's right, closer to the purifiers than the strike squad

Strike squad is overrated by some people, I don't know how they played

I found out about the Squad leader upkeep after reading your post, modders need to fix it soon
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Re: Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Wed 18 May, 2022 1:46 am

Strike Squad is strong. Don't know why you think they're not.
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Re: Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby Impregnable » Wed 18 May, 2022 8:08 am

Qman. Since you say you are new, there are certain things you need to know before continuing the discussion.

1/ Elite Mod is fundamentally a 1v1 high skill balance mod. What it means is as follows.
a) Any lore-based suggestions are not accepted.
- This is a 40K game so we try to apply lore as best as we can for flavor purposes, but it has very strict limits. When game balancing and lore clash even in the slightest, the former always takes priority.
- The one who suggests lore-based changes must prove their suggested changes will not affect game balancing.
b) Balancing is done almost purely based on 1v1.
- Team games are not considered when patching. Only in very few exceptional cases in which said unit, upgrade, ability etc is exclusively used for team games, it can be patched based on team games.
- The one who suggests team game changes must prove their suggested changes will not affect 1v1.
c) High skill is where balancing happens.
- High skill games would be Elite League Division A matches specifically.
- Balancing is not done when something is a problem in non-high skill level while not being a problem in high skill level and vice versa.
- The one who suggests balance changes must prove their suggested changes are needed for high skill level balancing.

2/ The community mostly moved to Discord and not many people monitor forums as closely as they do for Discord.
- Not saying you should not use forums for discussion, however. Just want to inform you that you will receive way less attention by posting here.
https://discord.com/invite/vRQsfc8N4K
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Re: Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby Qman » Wed 18 May, 2022 11:12 pm

Impregnable wrote:Qman. Since you say you are new, there are certain things you need to know before continuing the discussion.

1/ Elite Mod is fundamentally a 1v1 high skill balance mod. What it means is as follows.
a) Any lore-based suggestions are not accepted.
- This is a 40K game so we try to apply lore as best as we can for flavor purposes, but it has very strict limits. When game balancing and lore clash even in the slightest, the former always takes priority.
- The one who suggests lore-based changes must prove their suggested changes will not affect game balancing.
b) Balancing is done almost purely based on 1v1.
- Team games are not considered when patching. Only in very few exceptional cases in which said unit, upgrade, ability etc is exclusively used for team games, it can be patched based on team games.
- The one who suggests team game changes must prove their suggested changes will not affect 1v1.
c) High skill is where balancing happens.
- High skill games would be Elite League Division A matches specifically.
- Balancing is not done when something is a problem in non-high skill level while not being a problem in high skill level and vice versa.
- The one who suggests balance changes must prove their suggested changes are needed for high skill level balancing.

2/ The community mostly moved to Discord and not many people monitor forums as closely as they do for Discord.
- Not saying you should not use forums for discussion, however. Just want to inform you that you will receive way less attention by posting here.
https://discord.com/invite/vRQsfc8N4K


I posted based on 1v1
But maybe I'm just saying what I see because the rating is low, so I'll try to play more.

Discord has a lot of people, so I thought it would be difficult for me to respond right away, so I posted it here.
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Re: Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby Inekura » Thu 19 May, 2022 12:30 am

Om is definetly on the weaker side of the spectrum (which is fine as one race needs to be the lowest winrate without initiating powercreep)
Optimally we'd see some minor nerfs to other races to bring them down a bit.
Om just needs q bit of finetuning by number pushing and a purg change and they are good to go.
You can see that they are totally playable as they are by their winrate of the previous elite league div A.

You compared them very closely to sm and chaos but while they obviously are a heavy inf race they play very distinct and different from both.
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GuruSkippy
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Re: Is OM a completed Faction?

Postby GuruSkippy » Thu 19 May, 2022 12:30 pm

Inekura wrote:Optimally we'd see some minor nerfs to other races to bring them down a bit.

I'm curious about that

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