Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Khoronis
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Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Khoronis » Fri 01 Apr, 2022 7:18 pm

I've been playing DoW2 since vanilla and my favorite race are Eldar. However they do have big problems in Tier1 that other races have not.

Main Tier1 Eldar balancing problems:
1. Eldar Units+Commanders are way weaker than other races' Units+Commanders (for example: Warlock+Guardians+Banshees < Chaos Lord+Heretics+CSMs),
2. Eldar Units+Commanders require a lot of expensive upgrades to get even (not even stronger than other races but just even),
3. Guardians are supper squishy (even with their upgrade) and deal very little damage (8.75 not-armor-piercing DPS WHAT!?) (they lose to everyone 1v1 except SM Scouts maybe),
4. No Jump Infantry in T1 leaves Eldar with little to no tools to deal with Heavy Weapons Teams (especially Warlock - he should have Warp Throw Upgrade available in Tier1)

Once you get past Tier1 into Tier2 Eldar start to get even, however in Tier1 they are in massive dissadvantage from the get-go because they need to spend a lot money on upgrades for their Units+Commanders to do anything and not fall to far behind.
However there needs to be done something about their Tier1 gameplay as they have no real chance in early Tier1.

The best example of that is Indrid's DoW2: Elite replays on YouTube. I've seen every Eldar replay (or those that have an Eldar player) and Eldar tend to lose like 80-90% of the replays there.
Last edited by Khoronis on Fri 01 Apr, 2022 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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GuruSkippy
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Very Weak

Postby GuruSkippy » Fri 01 Apr, 2022 9:22 pm

sorry but....



git gud
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Khoronis
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Very Weak

Postby Khoronis » Fri 01 Apr, 2022 9:28 pm

Well, that explaines a lot. Thanks for constrictive comment.
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GuruSkippy
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Very Weak

Postby GuruSkippy » Fri 01 Apr, 2022 9:45 pm

You didn't ask for any help.
You just stated some facts, well facts, for you.

So yeah, 1st post wasn't constructive, 2d post is not either.
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GuruSkippy
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Very Weak

Postby GuruSkippy » Fri 01 Apr, 2022 9:53 pm

Guardians are highest dps for cost in T1, by a large margin. They have only like 1dps less than a TSM squad.
Banshees are highest dps.
Both of them have higher than standard speed.

Guardian upgrade is insanely cheap for what it gives : +33%hp, Fleet of foot, grenade, and shield.
Banshee upgrade is great, and not overpriced at all

Guardians have same HP as sluggas. And with cheap upgrade, have +33% hp, that's huge. Sluggas need burnas (+20%) AND the slugga nob (+15%) to have the same HP bonus. But guess what, you have warlock in T2, who is also cheaper, and gives new great ability, and ranged damage resistance to your squad.

Shuriken platform is the best suppression team.
Rangers are your standard setup team counter. But shuriken, and FoF on your standard units are more than enough to deal with them anyway.

And if you think their heroes are bad... then I don't know...
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Khoronis
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Very Weak

Postby Khoronis » Fri 01 Apr, 2022 9:56 pm

Ok, so I need to end the post with "Please share your opinions" then in order not to get insulted.
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GuruSkippy
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Very Weak

Postby GuruSkippy » Fri 01 Apr, 2022 10:05 pm

oh, and last but not least
Indrid doesn't cast high level games, or very rarely nowadays.
Go watch this one if you want to see high level game, with great commentaries about tactics etc
https://www.youtube.com/c/SenpaiTorpidDOW
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Khoronis
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Very Weak

Postby Khoronis » Fri 01 Apr, 2022 10:47 pm

I've checked Senpai Torpid DOW - the channel you sent.
In last 12 months there have been 20 games that involved [eldar vs other races].
The winrate for [eldar vs other races] is [7:13]... It's almost 35% winrate for the eldar - if eldar are competitive then that's pretty weak.
If that's high level, then high level players can't make eldar work in high level games - whatever tactics they are using.

What you said about eldar units/commandes being decent with upgrades (and their upgrades being good) is actually my point. You have to buy upgrades to make them even with other races - while other races get good units/commanders from the start
Even with IG for example a commissar gets a shield that eldar Warlock has to pay for in Champion's Rope.
Or the fact that a Warlock has to pay 245req and 65energy to have a fighting chance against for example unupgraded Chaos Lord/Hive Tyrant/Force Commander/Warboss/Brother-Captain.

The problem is that they require a lot of energy which means you cannot buy upgrades you need when you need them - which is from the very beginning. Until that Eldar are very likely to lose early fights which just gives other races more opportunity to capture resourse points.

However the point about rangers+shurikens is pretty valid but again... They still require energy which is sparse at the beginning - especially for Eldar as they have so many necessary upgrades to buy in Tier1.

And I don't say that Eldar have weak heroes. They can become powerful in time but at the beginning for example: Warlock+Guardians+Banshees < Chaos Lord+Heretics+CSM, etc.

But I don't say one cannot win with Eldar. It's just so much easier with other races.
Last edited by Khoronis on Fri 01 Apr, 2022 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kocha
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Very Weak

Postby Kocha » Fri 01 Apr, 2022 11:14 pm

This is straight up deranged.
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Khoronis
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Very Weak

Postby Khoronis » Fri 01 Apr, 2022 11:17 pm

What's deranged?
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Broodwich
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Very Weak

Postby Broodwich » Fri 01 Apr, 2022 11:20 pm

while as fun as it would be to bash this noob, I just took a big dump so i'm feeling good

Eldar are the only faction that doesn't have to pay to upgrade their damage output on their basic units. Upgrades give utility and health, which are both useful, but also not necessary to win engagements. Work on positioning your units and supporting them with one or two shuris, which eldar are heavily reliant on.

Eldar heroes are among the most trolly in the game, i don't see how you could think they were weak.

Lastly, unless you watched the matches all the way through, instead of just looking at the outcome, you might answer a few of your own questions.
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Khoronis
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Very Weak

Postby Khoronis » Fri 01 Apr, 2022 11:28 pm

Lastly, unless you watched the matches all the way through, instead of just looking at the outcome, you might answer a few of your own questions.

What does it matter what tactic do you use if the outcome is 35% winrate for eldar in high level games (Senpai Torpid DOW's channel) and like 10%-20% in lower games (Indrid's channel) seen on YT.

Work on positioning your units and supporting them with one or two shuris,

Like other races can't do that too and get even better results. Not to mention other races can do ok even without it in T1 at least when compared to eldar.

Eldar heroes are among the most trolly in the game, i don't see how you could think they were weak.

Trolly doesn't mean outright strong. And I don't say they are weak late game. A Warlock with Kurnous Witchblade+Providance+Warp Throw is pretty strong.
But early on a Warlock has to pay 245req and 65energy to have a fighting chance against for example unupgraded Chaos Lord/Hive Tyrant/Force Commander/Warboss/Brother-Captain. That's a cost other races offensive heroes don't have to pay and if they do, they become even stronger. And this is just upgrade cost for commander.

Not to mention at the very start of the game when there is not enough energy to buy upgrades yet the fight will go like that:
Warlock+Guardian+Banshee vs Chaos Lord+Heretics+CSM = Eldar lose
Warlock+Guardian+Banshee vs Warboss+Slugga+Shoota = Eldar lose
Warlock+Guardian+Banshee vs Force Commander+Scouts+Tactical SM = Eldar lose
Warlock+Guardian+Banshee vs Borther Captain+Inqusision Stormtroopers+Strike Team = Eldar lose
Warlock+Guardian+Banshee vs Hive Tyrant+Horma+Terma = Eldar lose
Warlock+Guardian+Banshee or Warlock+2xGuardian vs Commissar+Guardsmen+Sentinel = Eldar lose
Last edited by Khoronis on Sat 02 Apr, 2022 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kocha
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Kocha » Fri 01 Apr, 2022 11:48 pm

Literally the only fight there Eldar have even a chance of losing are the IG and ork ones. If you are losing WL, gu, shee to cl, tic, csm you need to get your brain checked. WL can literally delete a tic squad with a button press.
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Broodwich
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Broodwich » Fri 01 Apr, 2022 11:49 pm

i regret previously trying to help. Good luck not sucking!
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Kocha
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Kocha » Fri 01 Apr, 2022 11:51 pm

Obviously strong players like you and Guru are morons.
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Khoronis
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Khoronis » Fri 01 Apr, 2022 11:52 pm

Whatever. Believe what you will. I gave numbers. You gave insults. Whatever.
This conversation is over.
Inekura
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Inekura » Sat 02 Apr, 2022 2:59 pm

you seem to like statistics:
esl stats
https://dawnofwar.info/esl/stats
league 7
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0
league 8
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

judging winrates by watching casts might not be the best idea
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Torpid
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Torpid » Sun 03 Apr, 2022 1:37 am

Furthermore it is well known in the community that eldar are in constant contest for being considered the best race.

That alone should make you wonder, hmm, maybe I've got something wrong here. Or maybe I'm miraculously just better than all the best players even though I can't come close to beating them :thinking.
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Adila
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Adila » Sun 03 Apr, 2022 2:07 am

He posted it on April 1st, guys pls thats like a max level bait there ))
Cry this Crysis
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Cry this Crysis » Sun 03 Apr, 2022 11:02 am

If it is true, this is the most genious April fool’s joke I ever seen
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Broodwich
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Broodwich » Sun 03 Apr, 2022 11:20 pm

i dunno, that's a lot of effort for a few git guds
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LOCALgHOST
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Very Weak

Postby LOCALgHOST » Tue 05 Apr, 2022 2:19 pm

Khoronis wrote:Ok, so I need to end the post with "Please share your opinions" then in order not to get insulted.


no, you just don't get HOW MANY posts like these we saw from the guys who like their race but lose CAUSE IT NEEDS TO BE BUFFED! immediately!
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Dark Riku
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 05 Apr, 2022 4:48 pm

:lol:
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Element
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Element » Thu 07 Apr, 2022 1:09 pm

@OP
-The best offset to what you have stated is what I found out to be running 3x dire avengers. 1 da doen't get the job done, 2x- makes it decent but not good enough, 3x- allows you to excel in outshooting just about any t1 build the other faction can muster outside of shennanigans.
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"Because I choose to."

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TheTenso
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby TheTenso » Sat 09 Apr, 2022 3:21 pm

Everybody got baited on an April fools joke...
Venjitron
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Venjitron » Fri 10 Jun, 2022 4:28 am

eldar are the weakest faction by far t1 t3 in my 45k hours they are the weakest by far thier heroes in t1 without upgrades lack dmg
guardians dont beat any ranged infantry
banshees dont beat and melee squads
for a mobile race to camp behind easily countered shuri is counter intuitive
its not a case of git gud a ork will base lock eldar tier one cos shooters counter all thier t1
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby PianoMan » Fri 10 Jun, 2022 11:20 am

banshees are pretty meh lately tbh
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Dark Riku
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Dark Riku » Fri 10 Jun, 2022 9:11 pm

Guys, April 1st has long passed :lol:
PianoMan
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby PianoMan » Sat 11 Jun, 2022 10:33 am

Dark Riku wrote:Guys, April 1st has long passed :lol:

well the full opinion is that banshees are meh but guardians warp spiders fire dragons wraithlord and globals are imba, which i think you maybe might agree with
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Re: Eldar Tier1 Are Weak

Postby Venjitron » Sun 12 Jun, 2022 2:20 am

firedragons are shite....wraithlord is fine....guardians need either health or dps and warpspiders are shite

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