(Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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bolt_206
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(Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby bolt_206 » Tue 26 Mar, 2019 10:24 pm

Got a small encouragement to make a post about it here, after I made the suggestion on a YT comment on Indrid's casts, talking about a potential change to the Aspect of Tzeentch, CSM Aspiring Champions (a title that doesn't get easier to re-type); in short, the suggestion was to turn the Champions into 'mini-sorcerers', giving them a Force Staff and a single ability.

To follow this line of thought, I would first suggest that if this change be made, the Champion have *slightly less* DPS than their squad members - he's powerful in a different way, he doesn't need the raw DPS alongside an already all-around powerful ranged squad. As for the ability, it'd likely be one to fit the theme of being a Tzeentch-ian caster to start with, and as I don't want to make it an ability that is or provides a huge boost of damage, maybe a CC-like ability instead? Like a Chains of Torment but weaker, only able to target a single unit for a set and short time.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby SarDauk » Wed 27 Mar, 2019 2:08 am

well even if it's an interesting and lore friendly idea, there are still the two usual issues; first the modeling and animation (even if I guess the model of CS with his staff could be used) and two the balance, as putting a control ability on an already powerful range squad would be completely OP.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Nehkrosis » Wed 27 Mar, 2019 4:43 pm

i'd say keep it very straightforward.

make it a doombolt attack, but maybe only two bolts, similar to the Tzeentch Shrine.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Oddnerd » Thu 28 Mar, 2019 7:16 pm

It's a neat idea from the immersion and lore perspective, but there is no need for this balance-wise. TCSM are meant to be an a-moving damage dealer unit and they are worth the price for that alone.

The chaos roster already has good crowd control from its heroes and other units.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Atlas » Thu 28 Mar, 2019 9:42 pm

Well I have heard cries that the MoT AC is "just another guy" so I'm willing to hear ideas on this and bring them back. Not sure a control ability would be the way to go but I can see what we have in our model stock. It would probably just use the CSM animations and be fine on that.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Torpid » Fri 29 Mar, 2019 5:45 am

Oddnerd wrote:It's a neat idea from the immersion and lore perspective, but there is no need for this balance-wise. TCSM are meant to be an a-moving damage dealer unit and they are worth the price for that alone.

The chaos roster already has good crowd control from its heroes and other units.


I disagree tbh. I think the MoT AC is pretty horrendous and the main reason you don't want to go MoT is because the AC is so bad. The base MoT marines vs the base eternal war bolter marines or base khorne marines is fine, those are good. But when you consider a fully upgraded squad, or if you already have the AC prior to getting a mark the MoT is much less attractive since, well, the MoK gives a pretty nice buff to the AC and the basic AC is so damn good as it is.

I also think more broadly MoT are probably the worst performing T2 CSM variant atm. Yes they do very nice damage at range to HI. But it isn't in bursts like the comparable plasma tacs (nor do they have kraken rounds making them very inferior to plasma tacs at killing HI), and they lose huge chunks of that damage with each model loss, get no abilities to help them vs melee and do really quite terrible damage to heroes for their cost - something chaos struggles vs.

I think a chaos sorceror model with a pistol doing slightly less damage than the AC but with inferno damage, something like 10dps,as well as a power sword inflicting power melee, something like 30dps, would be nice for the MoT AC. He could justifiably get a spell for that cost too though I dunno what it should be and it would have to be fairly weak. A 2 bolt doombolt on a longer than average cd could do it. Or... an AoE debuff on enemy accuracy (as TCSM seem to be a ranged superiority option). Or a single model snare to help vs heroes.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Indrid » Fri 29 Mar, 2019 1:04 pm

I like the idea of a mini-Sorcerer fella with a staff shooting purple Tzeentch lightning stuff. Maybe with a debuff ability that can only target heroes and sub-comms to help Chaos deal with single entities, draining some energy and causing them to hurt themselves with their attacks for a duration.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Oddnerd » Fri 29 Mar, 2019 9:01 pm

Torpid wrote:
Oddnerd wrote:It's a neat idea from the immersion and lore perspective, but there is no need for this balance-wise. TCSM are meant to be an a-moving damage dealer unit and they are worth the price for that alone.

The chaos roster already has good crowd control from its heroes and other units.


I disagree tbh. I think the MoT AC is pretty horrendous and the main reason you don't want to go MoT is because the AC is so bad. The base MoT marines vs the base eternal war bolter marines or base khorne marines is fine, those are good. But when you consider a fully upgraded squad, or if you already have the AC prior to getting a mark the MoT is much less attractive since, well, the MoK gives a pretty nice buff to the AC and the basic AC is so damn good as it is.

I also think more broadly MoT are probably the worst performing T2 CSM variant atm. Yes they do very nice damage at range to HI. But it isn't in bursts like the comparable plasma tacs (nor do they have kraken rounds making them very inferior to plasma tacs at killing HI), and they lose huge chunks of that damage with each model loss, get no abilities to help them vs melee and do really quite terrible damage to heroes for their cost - something chaos struggles vs.

I think a chaos sorceror model with a pistol doing slightly less damage than the AC but with inferno damage, something like 10dps,as well as a power sword inflicting power melee, something like 30dps, would be nice for the MoT AC. He could justifiably get a spell for that cost too though I dunno what it should be and it would have to be fairly weak. A 2 bolt doombolt on a longer than average cd could do it. Or... an AoE debuff on enemy accuracy (as TCSM seem to be a ranged superiority option). Or a single model snare to help vs heroes.


I agree that their lack of burst is a deficit when compared with tac plasma, and I can see why the AC is considered a lackluster upgrade (considering he brings nothing to the table other than 18 or so dps with painful bleed potential), but wouldn't a more simple solution be to give TCSM a new firing pattern and an increased DPH? Last time I saw Thousand Sons played on tabletop I believe they had single shot weapons with insane damage and armour piercing. Would be a possible way to rebalance them and be lore friendly. You could also fix the AC by making him the sole squad member with a bursty high DPH weapon while the other dudes remain the same - or even let him provide a damage buff. Might make him stand out and be more than just an expensive 18 dps.

I dont play enough 1v1 to say the sorc suggestion is terrible, but it feels like the more complex a change you make, the more you risk unforeseen imbalances or OP nonsense happening. Simple firing pattern changes to the AC or whole squad might make up for their failings while allowing them to remain the same at the core.
Last edited by Oddnerd on Fri 29 Mar, 2019 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Shroom » Fri 29 Mar, 2019 10:01 pm

Oddnerd wrote: there is no need for this balance-wise

disagree, something needs to be done with mot ac, hes even worse than melta raptor ac after the latest patch.
simplest solution might (dont know the technical stuff) just be making him cheaper. 75/25 for an extra model with a bit more hp is super bad.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Black Relic » Sat 30 Mar, 2019 5:53 am

Wait so if a pistol and powersword model was introduced with lower DPS would the other model gain an increase to their damage to offset the lose of DPS?? Because if so then the problem is still the same and the change does nothing. From the points mentioned with damage fall off when a model is lost and there still is no burst damage and, unless the ability involves control instead of a doombolt thing, the MoT AC still offers nothing to the player and would just make base MoT CSM with no AC better. Assuming the lose in DPS is made up for.

A simpler option is to change the inferno bolter to be equip to one model and increase the DPS a fair bit and the other models keep their bolters. That way you are addressing the DPS fall off issue and when the AC is purchased he is equip with an inferno bolter as well. Addressing the issue of the AC not being worth it at all. While yes the AC still has no control and is just an increase in damage but it would make a single MoT AC CSM squad actually good an dealing with single entities. Plus this would do something most leaders cannot do. Which is have the ability to limit the damage fall off for a squad.

What I mean is normally without the AC for this change it would be two bolters and one Inferno bolter. A lost in a single model would be 1 bolter and one inferno bolter. Still retaining most of the DPS like a plasma gun tac. But with the AC having the inferno bolter as well. When a single model is lost its one bolter and two inferno bolters making the lose of the single model's dps hardly be felt much at all and the squad will still hit hard. Loses two models but the AC is still around? STILL hitting extremely hard but slightly noticeable DPS lose. Unlike plasma tacs where the damage fall off is defiantly noticeable.

So i would like the above change since he would have the "ability" to limit DPS fall off of the squad when a model is killed when he is around which is a BIG deal and would make is completely worth it imo. Maybe even OP to a point.

Personally i dont want the MoT AC to have a sword giving the ability to make special attacks. They need a solid weakness and they still are "ok" in melee when push comes to shove vs other ranged squads.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Asmon » Sat 30 Mar, 2019 8:46 pm

It's not because it's chaos that we have to create offensive abilities. You could add to the AC a defensive bonus, either passive or active, for example -15% damage taken when in cover or anything which might lead the squad towards a less braindead playstyle.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby SOLID SQUIG » Sun 31 Mar, 2019 9:24 pm

I love the ideas being thrown around here.

My idea is a sorcerer staff doing psychic dps with maybe a debuff at the targets it hits, like maybe lower dps or a slow or something.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Atlas » Sun 31 Mar, 2019 10:13 pm

Torpid wrote:I disagree tbh. I think the MoT AC is pretty horrendous and the main reason you don't want to go MoT is because the AC is so bad.

Also, what? Huh?

I'm actually confused as to what people want here. Feels like people are just all over the place on suggestions. Honestly, most of them sound like complete reworks instead of alterations.

From what I've read here, just eqipping the MoT CSM AC with an inferno_pvp bolt pistol and a chainsword might be the easiest change. I would personally need more convincing as to why adding a control ability would be necessary.

Another option we can do is just allow Slaughter to still be used while using MoT.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby SOLID SQUIG » Sun 31 Mar, 2019 10:27 pm

I think the universal thing here is people agree the champion upgrade on MoT is lack luster. I personally also think it’s lackluster on MoK also.

The only time I think it’s pretty good is on EW upgraded cam cause the ability to just flip into a melee unit then back to range is nice.

So I think we all agree it needs some changes, not sure what but we know it needs it.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby boss » Sun 31 Mar, 2019 11:03 pm

Would like to see an aspiring sorcerer for them tbh tzeentch csm are thousand sons even gave them the models for them in elite idk why its still called mark of tzeentch upgrade, aspiring sorcerer could gave a small damage reduction along with a skill.

Same thing for of mark of khorne csm should be called Khorne berserkers cos that's what they are and its a cheap upgrade as it is atm can't buff them while its cheap.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Mon 01 Apr, 2019 12:28 am

I would be okey if that Sorcerer has a ranged attack that has like 25% chance on knockback on hit, just like Warlock has with Merciless Witchblade.

And tbh, if we are thinking about reworking (not buffing) mark champions, we should also look at MoK champion too.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Black Relic » Mon 01 Apr, 2019 6:04 am

I do not want MoT AC to have any melee weapon at all that changes their melee dps. Because their melee capabilities is not is what is in question here. It is fine. They are a range squad purely and can still be used in melee if necessary.

It would make the units imo too versatile. If peoples issue is about melee or control with chaos then i think melee heretics in t2 need to be looked into and not MoT since that is not their field of expertise.

I'll be honest giving the MoT any sort of ability or way to control the enemy is weird and is not needed.

You want the AC to be better and make the upgrade actually worth it? Look at what peoples main issue. The Damage fall off when you lose a model. Its way Plasma Tacs and Plasma Guardsmen are soo good. They keep that high plasma dps when a model does die. Have MoT do something similar and let the AC have the weapon too. Now is is actually useful and people will actually want him since he double the inferno damage output and keeps it that way if him and a single CSM model is alive. That is actually a huge deal. Yes it is brain dead but the upgrade is just reworked to make it more reliable damage.

I think it is worth a shot. If if its not liked can easily be reverted. But it would solve the issues of the upgrade and the uselessness of the AC imo.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Broodwich » Mon 01 Apr, 2019 8:01 am

You could just make the AC cheaper and increase the cost of the marks to compensate for bleeding. MoT is somewhat underwhelming in most matchups anyway though, it's not only the AC that's the issue
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Zeno » Mon 01 Apr, 2019 9:34 am

Just reduce the cost of the AC down to 70/20 like the Tac Sarge. I have no idea why Chaos had to pay more for a squad leader which is inferior in most situations anyway. Don't increase the cost of either of the marks to compensate because then you'll effect the balance of the 3 man squad, which is what most players stick with anyway, and which I don't think anyone is arguing needs to be nerfed.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby boss » Mon 01 Apr, 2019 2:12 pm

Tzeentch champion atm is the same as the other marines but with 75 more heath that's shit for a squad leader for his cost and add to the fact he often the first one to die as well it like why bother getting him at all just a resource dumb.

If you not going to make him a useful squad leader would rather just remove the champ and just have 4 marines
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Atlas » Mon 01 Apr, 2019 6:44 pm

I mean ok, if you guys just want them to be better shooters just doing something basic like MoT CSM damage x 1.5 on his bolter is fine. Sargeant costs and mark costs are all very simple.

Also, I'd like to just be clear that plasma and inferno damage have different damage profiles. They are being talked about almost interchangeably from what I can see. Plasma damage is far more specialized towards heavy infantry whereas inferno damage is a very versatile profile.

As far as Sorceror swap-ins and the like yeah, that would need more thinking involved.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Black Relic » Tue 02 Apr, 2019 6:27 am

NONNONONONONO

I didn't bring in plasma guns in because of their damage type but because of how the weapon upgrade works. Where you always have the plasma gun up period allowing you to keep that high amount of plasma damage regardless of how many models (unless sarge is alive) died.

My suggestion was make the inferno bolter function JUST like the plasma gun. Where the one bolter does ALL of the inferno damage in the squad regardless of models lost. And the AC gets a inferno bolter too. Practically doubling the amount if inferno damage being pumped out. That's all!!! I thought i made that clear. Guess not.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Zeno » Tue 02 Apr, 2019 3:27 pm

Making TCSM into a clone of Plasma Tacs with a slightly different damage type is boring. And the idea of a 4 man Plasma Tac squad with double plasma guns sounds OP as hell, so I can't see a MoT CSM version being very balanced either.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Torpid » Tue 02 Apr, 2019 4:24 pm

Agreed with the above. Besides there's a reason plasma tacs are better - they can't be buffed with worship. Still, MoT are clearly lacking and most of that falls on the AC w/ MoT being really really cost ineffective. And that's the case whether plasma tacs existed or not.

It was fine in retail because the AC was 15 power. So w/e. But at 25 he is just so not worth it.

We need to figure out what MoT are for. Shoudl they be entirely vulnerable to melee akin to fire dragons of the eldar? Or hold their own like tacs w/ plasma+sarge. Are they ranged superiority generically, or are they specifically just for countering HI/SHI? Should they be good vs heroes?
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 02 Apr, 2019 5:32 pm

Considering that non-marked CSM already fill the niche of general combat unit, I think TCSM should be a dedicated ranged unit with no additional melee potential. KCSM are dedicated melee beasts, and vanilla CSM with slaughter are monsters in their own right; I dont see why the firepower-oriented TCSM should also have serious melee/anti-melee, above and beyond the fact that they are CSM who are already very melee-comptent by the standards of ranged units.

Since making them analagous to plasma tacs isnt popular, how about making the AC provide a kraken rounds-like buff(either active or passive) which increases damage against S/HI? Vanilla CSM are already strong ranged combatants for taking on light infantry, so why not make the AC for TCSM solidify them as the anti-S/HI CSM vatiant? Their inferno damage type and high raw dps means they would fit in between the niches of pure anti-S/HI specialist and general ranged unit - capable of dealing respectable damage to light infantry, but more cost-effective against S/HI (since the upgrade to TCSM would mostly be wasted against light infantry). This would make the AC more cost-effective, but the unit would still be distinguished from plasma tacs by retaining their steady fire pattern, as opposed to the bursty plasma gun.


EDIT - As for commanders, aren't they already pretty good at peeling HP off a commander who isnt tying them up? I think that should remain constant, as taking down single model units can be difficult for chaos. The hypothetical buff I suggested could also apply to commander armour if people think their anti-commander firepower is lacking.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Atlas » Tue 02 Apr, 2019 5:35 pm

FFS Torpid let's not over-complicate this!

People are saying the MoT CSM AC is bad and needs buffs, that's it! We're not talking about unit design here! They already have their role as a ranged superiority squad. People just want a reason to buy the AC which means making it better in some way.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Black Relic » Tue 02 Apr, 2019 11:37 pm

Idk I feel Torpid touch on something tbh. Yes it seems complicated but i feel it is necessary to answer what we want MoT to do. Because MoT CSM is underwhelming unless you get the AC. But its a resource dump that is cost inefficient.

So i think we need to answer what we think MoT should be. I want them to have no anti-melee or control abilities.

They need to be a range superiority unit imo. They are CSM so they can perform in melee. Where they can handle themselves a bit (they are a distance from the main army but not far enough to support or from) but not be a lone skirmisher too like MoK (which can be a flanker, counter initiation or skrimisher) which can be a unit that can perform well alone.

We could go a different route too. And slightly address the slowness of the faction and have MoT fundimentally stay untouched. But the AC caps 50% faster. With MoT.

But again i feel having a general consensus on what MoT CSM's role is the first step.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Atlas » Wed 03 Apr, 2019 12:52 am

Quick show of hands. Who here DOESN'T think MoT is meant for ranged superiority?

I'm willing to bet basically no one will say otherwise. There's no debate here about what role MoT CSM are supposed to have. It's just a question of if the AC does it good enough. I know I'm repeating myself, but don't over-complicate this!

I personally don't see a problem if MoT CSM w/AC lose to Plasma Tacs as PlasTacs are extremely specialized towards fighting HI whereas inferno damage is fairly versatile and the costs are basically the exact same. In that sense, I don't think they're a good comparison really. It's when they start losing to general ranged units that I start to show concern.

But this isn't about MoT, but the AC on that upgrade.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Crewfinity » Wed 03 Apr, 2019 8:26 am

Atlas wrote:Quick show of hands. Who here DOESN'T think MoT is meant for ranged superiority?

I'm willing to bet basically no one will say otherwise. There's no debate here about what role MoT CSM are supposed to have. It's just a question of if the AC does it good enough. I know I'm repeating myself, but don't over-complicate this!

I personally don't see a problem if MoT CSM w/AC lose to Plasma Tacs as PlasTacs are extremely specialized towards fighting HI whereas inferno damage is fairly versatile and the costs are basically the exact same. In that sense, I don't think they're a good comparison really. It's when they start losing to general ranged units that I start to show concern.

But this isn't about MoT, but the AC on that upgrade.


+1 to this.
CSM already have a clearly defined, understood, and accepted role in all three forms:
CSM - flexible anti-infantry unit that can hold its own in melee and ranged, especially good vs light infantry
MoK - melee brawlers with high mobility and dps
MoT - ranged superiority unit that deals high sustained damage to all infantry

I don’t think we need to redefine their roles and do any sort of redesign of the unit. The request in this thread and the issue at hand is quite simple - the MoT AC is significantly worse than the other two variants, therefore the 25 power cost is hard to justify on that model:
CSM AC - provides the amazing frenzy ability
MoK AC - provides a Melta pistol, and an extra model in a melee squad is a massive impact by itself, since it’s another model that can be generating melee specials. Damage is generally more evenly distributed in melee fights, so the MoK AC doesn’t die too often.
MoT AC - essentially just another CSM model with an (admittedly very good) inferno bolter and extra hp. If you are unlucky in how the CSM models position themselves in cover, you end up having to spend 75/25 on a model loss instead of 66/0 which feels awful.

The question here is simple - do we think that the MoT AC is underperforming, and if so what is the best way to bring him in line with the other two AC variants?

Personally, I think that model could use some love. He’s a bit bland (I can’t even pick him out from the rest of the squad) and really doesn’t feel worth the investment.
Potential fixes (in order of preference):

-Replace MoT AC with a sorcerer model, give him a staff with base AC melee dps and autofire a doombolt as a ranged attack. This is thematic with rubric marines, makes the AC significantly more exciting than just another bolter marine, and retains the overall role of the unit

-buff the AC’s performance in some way; maybe a flat damage increase, or some sort of aura to the squad. This would address the cost/benefit issue of the MoT AC without making any significant or risky changes

-reduce the purchase cost of the AC from 75/25 to 70/5 once MoT has been purchased. This would leave the model in its current state, and embrace the fact that it’s basically just another marine. I would be much happier to purchase and repurchase the MoT AC if it didn’t have the 25 power price tag.
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Re: (Suggestion) Tzeentch CSM Champion alteration

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 03 Apr, 2019 11:15 am

If you want to buff the AC in a way that improves the units' general ranged superiority, you could make him have a dmg buff, weapon range buff, or provide ranged DR like a DA exarch. Or make him a stronger combatant.

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