Are Purgation OP?

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Antandron
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Are Purgation OP?

Postby Antandron » Mon 11 Mar, 2019 6:24 pm

Patch Notes:

Purgation Squad:
Squad no longer captures 50% faster than normal.
Squad no longer wields Nemesis Halberds and Storm Bolters in addition to a heavy weapon.
Squad now is equipped with 3 Incinerators or Psycannons.
Incinerator courage damage reduced from 25 to 20.
Psilencers damage per hit reduced from 60 to 31.
(as part of the transition back to 3 weapons)
Psilencers damage type changed from inferno_pvp to the new psilencer_pvp damage type.
(psilencer_pvp is the exact same as inferno_pvp except for vs vehicles is increased from .1 to .6 and vs garrisons from .3 to .6)
Rending duration increased from 10 seconds to 30 seconds.
Rending no longer increases or reduces damage against infantry, heavy infantry and vehicle targets.
Rending now increases the damage multiplier vs commanders from .75 to 1.25.
Rending now increases weapon range from 55 to 60 for the duration of the effect.

Purgation Squad:
Incinerator courage damage modifiers increased at short and medium ranges from 1.5/1.25 to 1.75/1.5.
(Short is 0-13 range, medium is 14-24 range. Weapon fires out to 30 range maximum.)
Purged by Fire duration increased from 5 seconds to 8 seconds.
Purged by Fire radius increased from 12 to 15.
Psilencers wargear and upgrade has been renamed to Psycannons.
(Only a cosmetic change, the weapon is the same.)
Squad now has the Conversion Beamer upgrade. Cost set to 75/0 and available at T2.
(Beamer and Psycannons are exclusive to each other.)

Conversion Beamer-
"Equip one member of the squad with a Conversion Beamer, effective against vehicles. The weapon requires to be set up
to use, but deals more damage the farther away from the target and can be enhanced by the user to snare targets on hit."

(The other crewmen wield Storm Bolters and Nemesis Halberds at half normal damage and no special attacks rather than Incinerators when the squad equips the Conversion Beamer.)

Current Beamer configuration:
(Mirrors SM Lascannon stats WITHOUT a default snare by default BUT gains +10% damage every 16 range away from the target.)

Beamer Damage Table:
165 dph from 0-16(x1)
181.5 dph from 17-32(x1.1)
199.65 dph from 33-48(x1.2)
219.615 dph from 49-65(x1.3)

Maxes out at 219.615 dph/42.9 dps.
(SM Lascannon is 33 dps, Chaos Lascannon is 40.24 dps.)

Conversion Beamer upgrade also grants the squad the Electropulse ability.

Electropulse-
"Channel psychic might into the Beamer, allowing the weapon to snare vehicles hit by 60% for 5 seconds each hit. Drains 5 energy per second of use."
(The ability is free to toggle on/off with a small cooldown between the states.)
---------------------------------
Vanilla (280/30): 1050hp HInf and 40% melee resist with Incinerators makes them upgraded Noise Marines (who are 1050hp with no melee resist) who shut down melee easily.

Psilencers (75/25): 25 Psilencer dps

For comparison:
DR 60dps inferno range 48 200hp HInf per model for 400/40 no melee resist
MoT CSM 56dps inferno range 38 350hp HInf per model for 525/30 + 40% melee resist.
Purgation + Psilencers 75 dps inferno range 55 350hp HInf per model for 355/55 + 40% melee resist.

However the Purgation have 0.6 modifier vs Vehicles which = 75*0.6 = 45 dps vs Vehicles at range 55 or range 60 with rending.

For comparison:
FD 42.5dps vs Vehicles range 24
Stormtroopers 48dps vs Vehicles range 20
Purgation 45dps range 55

So these Purgation with Psilencers are DR and FD rolled into one with more range, more hp and melee resist. The set up time is a negative ofc but does it outweigh all their advantages? They set up in 3.5s and tear down in 1.5s.

Conversion beamer (75/0): basically a lascannon with equal dps at short range and more dps at medium and long range and a toggled snare. But on a 1050hp unit with 40% melee resist for 30/0 more.
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Re: Are Purgation OP?

Postby LOCALgHOST » Mon 11 Mar, 2019 7:52 pm

no, they not
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Broodwich
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Re: Are Purgation OP?

Postby Broodwich » Mon 11 Mar, 2019 8:19 pm

I think the real question that needs to be asked is whether GK need all their other soft counters to vehicles now that they have a lascannon. Remember all their "soft" sources of AV came from them not having a lascannon. Many of them have become harder counters to cope with a lack of las:

Ops infiltrate + melta
Rhino lasturret
Vindicare
Purifier passive AV bonus damage + heavy melee leader
Dread

I like the effort to keep them different with the beamer mechanics, but GK now have a buttload of nasty ways to deal with vehicles. I'm not sure all need to continue to exist
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Oddnerd
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Re: Are Purgation OP?

Postby Oddnerd » Mon 11 Mar, 2019 11:46 pm

Seconding Brood - the absence of a lascannon was the whole reason for having soft AV spread out across the race's t2 and t3. Might be time to reconsider some of their current soft AV. I think it's too early to call purgs op; the issue isn't necessarily one unit being op but rather, having too many units that perform the same function.
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Re: Are Purgation OP?

Postby boss » Tue 12 Mar, 2019 7:49 pm

Im just going to say one thing remember why beamy deathgun lose abit of its damage? cos it was very high for av burst damage it got reduced in 2.6.1 Lootas:
Beamy Deffgun firing pattern adjusted from 240 damage every 5 seconds to 180 damage every 4 seconds.

SO MIGHT I ASK WHY YOU GIVEING GK A BEAMY DEATHGUN WITH A SNARE WTF they went from lots of sources of av to best av now........
This thing where damage loses out as it fires are shorter ranges is very odd nothing will want to close in anyways.

One last thing come t3 vs gk they have Interceptors this unit makes vehicles useless as it is and now with gk having a beamy deathgun with a snare it pointless to even try getting vehicles vs them now and yea atm gk av is broken as hell best av now.
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Re: Are Purgation OP?

Postby Atlas » Fri 15 Mar, 2019 5:23 am

Wow.... Beemys did 240 dph? Even at the best cases Purgs are currently pulling 220 dph and they get no infiltrate. Man, beemys were just BUSTED back then.

I'm a little scared of the armchair thinking on Purgs this early but there's a couple ways to tune them right now. Initial dph, the rate that the damage scales up maybe the snare energy costs are all pretty simple. Melee resist doesn't really affect the Beamer's AV ability itself but sure, easily doable.

Of the list Brood gave out, I think we could be due to rethink the Puris passive bonus. I don't really think the Vindicare of Ops really need those kinds of nerfs right now but maybe. The LasRhino would probably require deeper thinking than a simple removal or transfer to T3.

May I ask the OP why they think Purgs are OP? I didn't really see an argument either way so much as a readout of the Purgation Squad's attributes. Or is this simply a more literal question that is looking for feedback?
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Re: Are Purgation OP?

Postby Hutsy » Sat 16 Mar, 2019 10:50 am

As a long time OM player (I main them but I'm still terrible), I'd say they're in a good spot now.

2.8 / 2.8.1 it was extremely rare for me to get them as they went down to one incinerator which just ruined their suppression and melee units could still get in fairly easily. Also the one Psilencer didn't seem to do the trick, despite for both variants having changes to damage etc to compensate for only one ranged weapon.

Now I see them as a lot more of a versatile Dev squad but with the added benefit of 3 weapon choices if you include how they come out the box.

Don't forget they're still countered in the same way as all set up teams, with jump squads, burrow strikes, teleportation etc to disrupt / tie them up in melee.

I'm well aware I'm clueless at the maths involved to work out the damage etc so I can't comment on that in the slightest but I think it's just a lot more noticable they've gone back to Psycannons and their abilities have slightly changed.

On a side note, I do feel OM are fairly nice now in comparison and that's with a lot of changes in one hit.

Couple of things I'm still not sure of such as Psychic Lash in T2, and Purifiers "Silence" ability instead of Psychic Field. Perhaps if Silence was a targeted ability where you target a squad, single entity or vehicle. Failing that, even if units move outside the target area, they're still affected for the given time?
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Re: Are Purgation OP?

Postby boss » Sat 16 Mar, 2019 5:33 pm

Atlas wrote:Wow.... Beemys did 240 dph? Even at the best cases Purgs are currently pulling 220 dph and they get no infiltrate. Man, beemys were just BUSTED back then.

I'm a little scared of the armchair thinking on Purgs this early but there's a couple ways to tune them right now. Initial dph, the rate that the damage scales up maybe the snare energy costs are all pretty simple. Melee resist doesn't really affect the Beamer's AV ability itself but sure, easily doable.

Of the list Brood gave out, I think we could be due to rethink the Puris passive bonus. I don't really think the Vindicare of Ops really need those kinds of nerfs right now but maybe. The LasRhino would probably require deeper thinking than a simple removal or transfer to T3.

May I ask the OP why they think Purgs are OP? I didn't really see an argument either way so much as a readout of the Purgation Squad's attributes. Or is this simply a more literal question that is looking for feedback?




Get a Terminator Librarian for Shrouding and now purgs can infiltrate oh and also a nice 25% damage buff :twisted: easy combo = ded transports and dreads easily.

You can't have high dps and a snare for av for 1 unit otherwise it will make vehicles useless for there costs and as broodwitch already said gk got av everywhere as it is
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Re: Are Purgation OP?

Postby Mac » Sat 16 Mar, 2019 8:33 pm

No. Why would they? Also GK doesn't have more 'soft-AV' than SM. SM has lascannon, ASM meltabomb, Tactical missile, dread, plasma cannon and 2 of their heroes have amazing AV.
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Re: Are Purgation OP?

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Sat 16 Mar, 2019 8:49 pm

I would say they are UP, at least for their psycannons. They are just hopeless. Can't kill infanrty, can't kill tanks, can't even kill gens anymore. Why should I even bother to get psycannons? Rending is just a weaker Vengance Rounds in T2, which makes it useless. Hell, even T1 Vengance Rounds are doing better than Rending psycannons.
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Re: Are Purgation OP?

Postby Torpid » Sat 16 Mar, 2019 9:04 pm

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:I would say they are UP, at least for their psycannons. They are just hopeless. Can't kill infanrty, can't kill tanks, can't even kill gens anymore. Why should I even bother to get psycannons? Rending is just a weaker Vengance Rounds in T2, which makes it useless. Hell, even T1 Vengance Rounds are doing better than Rending psycannons.


What?

What are t1 vengeance rounds? Rending doesn't affect their damage vs vehicles, just makes them kill gens/turrets/shrines/heroes quicker.
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Re: Are Purgation OP?

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Sun 17 Mar, 2019 5:18 am

Torpid wrote:What?

What are t1 vengeance rounds? Rending doesn't affect their damage vs vehicles, just makes them kill gens/turrets/shrines/heroes quicker.


Well, either Rending is bugged or you are wrong. I'm pretty sure that rending did almost nothing to their damage against gens when I activated.

Third possibility might be that it gives a buff, but it is soooo little and so useless that even I couldn't notice.
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Re: Are Purgation OP?

Postby Torpid » Sun 17 Mar, 2019 5:27 am

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:
Torpid wrote:What?

What are t1 vengeance rounds? Rending doesn't affect their damage vs vehicles, just makes them kill gens/turrets/shrines/heroes quicker.


Well, either Rending is bugged or you are wrong. I'm pretty sure that rending did almost nothing to their damage against gens when I activated.

Third possibility might be that it gives a buff, but it is soooo little and so useless that even I couldn't notice.


Yeah, the third possibility is you're wrong.

I haven't used them in 2.9.1 yet, but in 2.9 they did very noticably more damage under rending to gens. It's about double or if I recall correctly.
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Re: Are Purgation OP?

Postby PianoMan » Sun 17 Mar, 2019 10:26 am

stop replying to turk's posts its obvious hes either 5 iq or just trolling
purgs could cost a little bit more req xd
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Re: Are Purgation OP?

Postby Element » Sun 17 Mar, 2019 4:01 pm

I think the real question that needs to be asked is whether GK need all their other soft counters to vehicles now that they have a lascannon. Remember all their "soft" sources of AV came from them not having a lascannon. Many of them have become harder counters to cope with a lack of las:

Ops infiltrate + melta
Rhino lasturret
Vindicare
Purifier passive AV bonus damage + heavy melee leader
Dread

I like the effort to keep them different with the beamer mechanics, but GK now have a buttload of nasty ways to deal with vehicles. I'm not sure all need to continue to exist


I agree with Broodwich in this sense, I don't have enough experience with the conversion beamer to make a comment, that being said people seems to be not recalling Ordeo Malleus also has access to "Mind Blades" also providing an extra 20% damage + Increase to a squad which is like the "For The Emporor" with a lascannon/which is extremely good. I was talking with Torpid about the Las rhino and if you ask me, While he did bring up the point the Las Rhino has becone rather synonymous with Taking G.K., I don't necessarily think it may be the most balanced outfutting for the faction with other other factions in T2. The major reason for its introduction in the first place, was due to a lack of A.V. in the O.M. roster;Now there seems to be a plethora of it. Operatives, Purgation,Vindicare Assassin, Purifiers, Dread, Interceptors, Paladins...The applicability of some of the newly introduced a.v. options has also indirectly
buffed the effective value of the others as well when used in tandem with one another to which we now see G.K. really performing well (maybe too well given your view of balance.); at least in pertains to the matter of how the synchonization of Multiple A.V. types as far as coordinative facilitation efforts is concerned gives the sense they are performing very well if not too well in that of ehat they should be ss far as the way in which they should perform regarding each of the respective attributes.

I personally still believe Interceptors should be a T2 option. without the ranged to start them out earlier and make there be a respective choice amongst them and purifiers. We would then grant them the option to buy A Psycannons upgrade in T3. like raptors.The problem before was purifiers were always a second choice based upon tier, now the reverse has been marketed. I think both should be made available at the same time so as to really call into question what you are looking for in either unit. Not to mention as far as Melee goes, Interceptors would be able to tack on some experience as they engage less so dedicated T3 Elite infantry in T2. where as in T3 if you buy them, it's for a specialist reason of sole primarily chasing down a tank, This may be what the community is looking for, but one could say that a haze of toxicity then begins to form around the matter, and one could say that Interceptors A.V. damage as it stands to be right now especially given they can jump is quite indeed perhaps slightly- indeed overperforming. If we know they will gain some earlier influence/experience--> levels we may be able to counter- balance the weapon output damage with field presence, field modification, multuplicity, synchronization, & synergy with other subject units in lower tier roster before terminator variants become available and overshadow them as a choice option.

Well, that's just my 2 sense upon the matter. My father has always expressed to me that "It is better to have to tone down than to have to tone up." and I absolutely agree with this statement. In one instance you have what you need, actually the statement you have here is expressed that you have more than what you need, but at least you have it, and just need to tone down that statistical measures of effort as opposed to find an outright non- concieved solution in the other; which means you are missing parts and have to go out and scavenge for all of them, where as in the other you just need to strip the car to make sure its light enough to run at the best Mass- Acceleration ratio so as to attain the greatest advents of Max Velocity.
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Antandron
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Re: Are Purgation OP?

Postby Antandron » Wed 03 Apr, 2019 5:53 pm

Atlas wrote:May I ask the OP why they think Purgs are OP? I didn't really see an argument either way so much as a readout of the Purgation Squad's attributes. Or is this simply a more literal question that is looking for feedback?


My approach would be this:
a. make a direct comparison to similar units in another roster.
b. ask if this unit deserves special treatment because of "faction asymmetry" or "compositional holes", if it does, then adjust the cost +/- some percentage to account for this.

Disclaimer: before I get flamed, step a. is only to get an estimate and uses some creative guesswork like +x % damage being worth about +x/2 % cost, same for hp. melee resist is like extra hp but not all damage received is in melee so I count this as half of what a similar increase in hp would be. e.g. +20% hp would be worth + 10% cost and +20% melee resist would be worth +5% cost.

I'll covert req/power to req using a 5:1 req:power ratio which is a scientific number pulled from my arse.

So base purgation:
a. Similar to Noise Marines (350/30 = 500/0) but with +40% melee resist and without Cacophany. I reckon +40% melee resist is worth about +10% cost [1] (+50req) and Cacophany could be worth 50req too so their cost would be about 350/30. No idea about how their flamer compares with Noise Marines, all I remember is that it suppresses melee units almost instantly. So 350/30 would be a fair price imo.
b. NM are a niche unit in the CSM roster and one of 3 T1.5 units while OM have only two T1.5 units which is a disadvantage so I'd give them a 50req discount because of this.

Final Cost = 300/30 so no complaints from me for once.

Lascannon Purgation (325/30):
a. vs LasDevs (325/30 = 475/0): +50% hp, +20% melee resist (LasDevs have 20% melee resist), more damage, toggled snare. +20% melee resist = +5% cost, +50% hp = +25% cost, the damage is about +20% on average = +10% cost, toggled snare = 5% discount, = 5% + 25% + 10% - 5% = +35% of 475/0 ~ 640/0 or 440/40.

Before I get abused for that 440/40 number consider that the +50% hp and + 20% melee resist is often the difference between getting wiped by retreat grenades, Stormboyz, Bloodletters, etc. and being able to retreat to base. Basically, +50% hp and +20% melee resist is a HUGE advantage and they currently only pay 30req for this advantage when compared to LasDevs.

b. Do Lascannon Purgation deserve special treatment? I don't know for sure but I doubt it.

Psilencer Purgation (325/55 = 600/0):
a. vs AT Devs (325/30 = 475/0): +50% hp, +20% melee resist. ATDevs are about 40dps vs Vehicles range 55 so Psilencers have the advantage here with 45dps range 55. vs Inf/HInf it's hard to tell because of the range modifiers for ATDevs. I'll assume that the weapons are similar strength so ultimately Psilencer Purgation are +50% hp = +25% cost and +20% melee resist = +10% cost = +35% cost = 475 +35% = 640/0 or 350/50
I suspect that Psilencers are worth more than 350/50 as they do about 75dps vs Inf and SHinf and about 82dps vs HInf at range 55 which is a lot more than comparable T2 units like DR, MoT CSM and plasma Tacs, but with the disadvantage of having to set up and tear down.
b. I doubt Psilencers deserve a discount.

In conclusion:
Base Purgation: 300/30
Lascannon: +190/0 or 140/10 to get the cost from 300/30 to 440/40. Unfortunately the 50req discount for base purgation doesn't apply here so the upgrade is +50req.
Psilencers: +140/0 or 50/20 to get the cost from 300/30 to 350/50. Again the 50req discount has to be paid back here.
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Re: Are Purgation OP?

Postby Atlas » Wed 03 Apr, 2019 11:13 pm

As a quick point of information, Mind Blades only affects melee damage. They wouldn't do anything to Purgs.

And no offense Antandron, but you've lost me. I don't exactly see where all these valuations come from nor do I particularly see why factions should have such 1:1 cost symmetry on each faction's unit equivalents.

But yeah, the general package does seem kinda strong. I can see nerfs being justified on Purgs.
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Re: Are Purgation OP?

Postby Antandron » Thu 04 Apr, 2019 11:47 am

It's not exactly 1:1 cost symmetry as some exceptions can be made for some units.

This is, imo, the easiest method to obtain reasonable unit costs and avoid units being OP or UP. It works for units, squad leaders, upgrades and wargear and anything else I've forgotten to mention.

The other alternative is sophisticated guesswork. This brought us 2.7 Falcons, 2.8 Purifiers and lots of other broken stuff.

If unit comparisons across rosters does not count for anything, then nothing can be said to be OP because "OP" is a relationship of one unit to another. If there are no valid relationships then nothing is OP, nothing is UP, everything is OK. But ofc that makes no sense, which is why unit comparisons are valid in most cases, to some degree.

Also, if a roster contains OP units then players just auto-buy that unit in most games and then the meta becomes stale. Players auto-buying units is a good indication that the unit is OP since if they were priced correctly, players would be forced to at least consider if the purchase was worth the cost or not. See Purifier Justicars, 2.7 Falcon, Ogryn Bone'Ead. Conversely, units/upgrades/squad leaders that are very rarely bought are often UP because most players aren't dumb and know not to waste req/power on crap units.

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