2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Adeptus Noobus
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Sun 04 Nov, 2018 12:07 pm

Can Symbiosis be cancelled once casted? Can you retreat out of it?
Why reduce Wraithbone so drastically?
Is Psychic Lash knockback strength still the same (it is really high)?

Very good job on finally acknowledging that the TM's Axe build needed some love!

Instead of giving the FC's teleport a delay I would suggest a higher recovery time after the teleport. The problem with the teleport is that once he is (god knows where) among your army, there is no time to react because his Thunderhammer is already winding up. That was the real issue with his teleport imo. Giving him a higher recovery time gives you time to at least react to the new situation. It would also force you to be more cautious with your teleports since you can not autopilot him into entire armies any longer without at least some risk.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby oLev » Mon 05 Nov, 2018 1:40 am

Telos wrote:This doesn't seem very true in practice. It could be true that they have a role in every MU but it seems pretty 11situational to see them in high level play, it's hardly every game anyway.


Where are you getting your high level tyranid experience without zoans?
Mechanically, zoans let tyranid survive in the field against transport compositions that would otherwise chip and bleed them to death.
They passive heal like apo, improving with vet which makes kiting engagements feasible, that plus its long range attacks gives you options beyond yolo rushing before your units are too depleted to do anything.
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Re: RE: Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Nurland » Tue 06 Nov, 2018 10:41 am

Telos wrote:[quote="boss"]Zoans are already needed in each matchup and always have been tyranids t2 very basic to understand
Venom brood to buff termagunts and ravs,also give more synapse.
Tyrant Guard to tank and line break.
Genestealers to be your elite melee unit would be nice if they were that again :(
Zoans to be your aoe damage at long range, also only range damage that's not piercing other than bs fexs along with more synapse and heal synapse very important for t3 for your fexs unless you want to be walking for 5 mins just to heal oh and also there also your best av you got till venom fexs come out so yea zoan are always needed and always will be.
Its very sad tyranids don't get more units in t2.


This doesn't seem very true in practice. It could be true that they have a role in every MU but it seems pretty situational to see them in high level play, it's hardly every game anyway. On the otherhand, all the repair units of other races appear in every game. In any case I still dislike them being pinned into such an essential role on such a fragile single unit when I'd rather just get out a second (or third) fex.

I'm just unclear if the reasoning for having it on the zoan is practical (from the nature of the mod) or thematic (it makes "sense" that it's on the zoan).[/quote]Nobody is forcing you into getting a Zoan any more than it is forced right now. Other nid units aren't getting magically nerfed into oblivion. They are as viable as ever.

And yes. Zoans are already bought almost every game by most decent players so it doesn't really change the meta. There are very few reasons not to get one.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Soberson » Tue 06 Nov, 2018 3:20 pm

Not a balance question but is Catachan ability bug (energy spent to no effect) even fixable at all? It's still there after all these years...
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Toilailee
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Toilailee » Wed 07 Nov, 2018 2:03 am

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Why reduce Wraithbone so drastically?


Because it's absolute BS right now :x
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby LOCALgHOST » Wed 07 Nov, 2018 6:44 am

Oddnerd wrote:I'm not sure how I feel about making all of these abilities no longer affect allied races. Everyone knows that 3v3 is a balance shitshow, but one of the fun things that separates 3v3 from 1v1 is finding ways to make abilities and globals from 1 race synergize with another, and a lot of these changes seem to remove this aspect from the game. I understand that some abilities should never be used on other races for balance reasons (ie - inspire determination on sluggas or hormagaunts), but some of these seem overly harsh. On some maps, your typical 3v3 sometimes feels like 3 concurrent 1v1s, these changes might just make that even worse by making interfaction synergy less of a deciding factor.


yeah, they've just killed the spirit of this game. i'll never go 3v3 after that
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Re: RE: Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Telos » Wed 07 Nov, 2018 7:22 am

Nurland wrote:Nobody is forcing you into getting a Zoan any more than it is forced right now. Other nid units aren't getting magically nerfed into oblivion. They are as viable as ever.


I think my question is being misunderstood, and that could be my fault. I'm not trying to argue that the zoanthrope doesn't have value, my question is why the zoanthrope being chosen for the very important role of repair? If it's for functional reasons of the mod then sure that can't be helped. If it's being chosen for other reasons and the role could be put into another unit, my question is why? I commend the mod for giving tyranids this very vital ability, but why must Tyranids alone face the tactical decision of building a unit that can repair? And by no means a cheap, fast, or sturdy unit. It's certainly possible there are considerations that must be addressed with giving nids the ability to repair in the field, that's all I'm asking about. Regardless of how often they're made in games, it's not the 100% time that gaunts see gameplay nor the 99% of games that see capillary towers. But again, this may be functional reasons of the mod that I'm not aware of.

Nurland wrote:And yes. Zoans are already bought almost every game by most decent players so it doesn't really change the meta. There are very few reasons not to get one.


Let me clarify what I mean when I say "this doesn't seem very true in practice".

My basis for choosing the videos below were 1) videos are easier to reference than replays 2) these games were all relatively recent 3) I consider all these players skilled at nid use (if this is contended than I would argue they're competent at the least):

Elite league show #4 vs SM T3 no zoans
Elite league show #5 vs SM T3 no zoans
Elite league show #6 vs SM T3 no zoans
Elite league show #7 vs Eldar T3 1 zoan 2 fex
Elite league show #11 vs SM T3 1 zoan no fex
Elite league show #12 vs Eldar T3 no zoans

I only referenced games that went to T3 and didn't consider the neurothrope in the same category. Of those that featured the zoanthrope, only 1 of the 6 also had Carnifexes. I'd hardly consider this "almost every game". Even if it were to be argued that there are far more games in the league that featured T3 with zoanthrope and carnifexes, not seeing T3 zoans is hardly a remote occurrence.

But sure it's possible that these games from the league were just flukes and zoanthropes are considered so important to the nid meta that players should be further encouraged to put them into every build in every match-up? If that's the case then it's also fine, if that's the case then I don't see why it isn't just given as the reason? However, I would say there are certainly instances where you don't want to build them. If you'd rather dedicate your resources to tyrant guards, or teching, or getting out more carnifexes. If your opponent specializes in long range assassin units, or strong melee units that are able to close the distance rapidly comes to mind. If a zoan is knocked back, or caught in retreat by melee it will probably die. If it's caught in almost any nuke it will probably die. Couple that with synapse backlash and there are certainly cases where they can be considered a liability.

I'm not trying to be nitpicky here, I'm just trying to understand the methodology behind decisions. The mod team is certainly free to balance nids however they see fit, I just think understanding why certain decisions are made can help everyone better understand the goal and accept those changes as the best given the circumstances.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby boss » Wed 07 Nov, 2018 2:51 pm

Idk what to say to this but not many people even play tyranids no more' there only 3 players who main them these days me floid and hiveminion and least from my view sooner or later you need a zoan to add there diffent traits to your army, maybe they will put there views on here about zoans.

Zoan already has a passive heal so it makes sense to give it a channeling heal it either that or give fexs a heal like what the wraithlord as a upgrade but I bet people will cry fexs op cos can heal so zoan get a heal repair.

And only me do changers for tyranids since no one bothers with them hence why they been getting mostly buffs last few patch since 2.4 where they got nerf hammed. And mostly for the other races I been doing changes aka fixed dumb patch notes for since again not many people bother yet im not balance lead :shock:
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Nurland » Wed 07 Nov, 2018 3:44 pm

Nids having poor healing/repair support for their Carnifexes has been one of their factional traits. Just because they get something to lessen the effect doesn't automatically mean it should be easily and cheaply accessible... The whole point of the buff seems to be to reward you for keeping your Zoan alive into T3 which is especially impactful for team games where artillery is more common than 1v1.

Boss pretty much summed up why you very often want a Zoan in your composition. Your playstyle and army compositions also affect on your decision to go or not go for a Zoan. Also enemy army compositions can sometimes be unfriendly for a Zoan but usually it is a very solid purchase that helps out a lot.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Aetherion » Wed 07 Nov, 2018 6:41 pm

Never played nids ever, but here's my crazy idea. Maybe give fexes a consume ability àla sorcerer except for HP rather than energy? Eat a terma or horma for a snack with a reasonable cooldown (idk whats the time value of healing X amount instantly rather than going back to base or HP regen auras). Although its lore heresy since Hive Fleets divide the fighting and eating parts.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Yabbaman » Wed 07 Nov, 2018 6:54 pm

Aetherion wrote:Never played nids ever, but here's my crazy idea. Maybe give fexes a consume ability àla sorcerer except for HP rather than energy? Eat a terma or horma for a snack with a reasonable cooldown (idk whats the time value of healing X amount instantly rather than going back to base or HP regen auras). Although its lore heresy since Hive Fleets divide the fighting and eating parts.


Great idea.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby boss » Thu 08 Nov, 2018 5:14 pm

So when next stream atlas?
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Atlas » Fri 09 Nov, 2018 5:49 am

boss wrote:So when next stream atlas?


My time is currently getting super crunched by research papers now. The absolute earliest would be this Saturday but that's only if I make great progress on Friday. It's more likely I'll go again during Thanksgiving Break the week after.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Thu 15 Nov, 2018 4:05 pm

Toilailee wrote:
Adeptus Noobus wrote:Why reduce Wraithbone so drastically?


Because it's absolute BS right now :x

No disagreement there, but why reduce it by that high amount? Surely, a more cautious approach would be fine as well.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Torpid » Thu 15 Nov, 2018 5:24 pm

Not remotely convinced it is bullshit anyway. It's a t3 upograde that immobilises a vehicle in place for a long period of time.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Atlas » Thu 15 Nov, 2018 7:31 pm

Kk, schedule is on for this Saturday! Just some more refinement and probably a LOT more live testing. As always, come if you want. I'll be looking through chat and the forum/discord notes!
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby boss » Thu 15 Nov, 2018 8:29 pm

Torpid wrote:Not remotely convinced it is bullshit anyway. It's a t3 upograde that immobilises a vehicle in place for a long period of time.



Yea it been this way since retail I don't think it got buff in elite so why cry about it now and want it nerfed?

Atlas wrote:Kk, schedule is on for this Saturday! Just some more refinement and probably a LOT more live testing. As always, come if you want. I'll be looking through chat and the forum/discord notes!


Cool still think all this upkeep stuff is not needed only ones were ask for was tyranids from me the rest should stay the same.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Asmon » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 11:49 am

Wraitbone was buffed by caeltos in elite, a while ago. It's quite good now.

I wouldn't say it's op, it just forces to invest into several av sources to deal with the WL, since it gained melee resistance. You cannot beat it to death like before so some players who didn't adapt are upset.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Toilailee » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 5:07 pm

70hp/s is bonkers, It is a get-out-of-jail-free-card that WL doesn't deserve to begin with even in T3 and it doubles as a way to heal up your walker without having to devote much time to repairing it. For comparison the dark age of technology is pitiful for almost the same cost.

Asmon wrote:I wouldn't say it's op, it just forces to invest into several av sources to deal with the WL, since it gained melee resistance. You cannot beat it to death like before so some players who didn't adapt are upset.

Oh shut it you dirty eldar abuser.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby boss » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 6:08 pm

I would increase it cooldown inbetween each use so it can't repair as fast its 490hp whiles disables, Cooldown 60 seconds to 80s

Should not compare wraithlords to sm dreads
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Broodwich » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 11:45 pm

Filthy OM Main wrote:Oh shut it you dirty eldar abuser.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Torpid » Sat 17 Nov, 2018 6:01 am

Toilailee wrote:70hp/s is bonkers, It is a get-out-of-jail-free-card that WL doesn't deserve to begin with even in T3 and it doubles as a way to heal up your walker without having to devote much time to repairing it. For comparison the dark age of technology is pitiful for almost the same cost.

Asmon wrote:I wouldn't say it's op, it just forces to invest into several av sources to deal with the WL, since it gained melee resistance. You cannot beat it to death like before so some players who didn't adapt are upset.

Oh shut it you dirty eldar abuser.


How is dark age pitiful? A gigantic boost to its inspiration effect (20% -> 35%) is very influential and the extra max hp helps it beat other walkers. Take it over wraithbone every day!

I'd also argue that dreadnoughts are much more likely to survive into t3.

I don't think wraithbone needs a nerf.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Toilailee » Sat 17 Nov, 2018 6:53 am

Torpid wrote:How is dark age pitiful?

By comparison. Dark age is a decent upgrade and worth the cost but wraithbone is 5 times better for 5 more power. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I have a feeling that people who defend this haven't seen it in action even once since it is fairly rare, just like all the other T3 vehicle upgrades.

Torpid wrote:I'd also argue that dreadnoughts are much more likely to survive into t3.

Debatable, but even if that's true it's only if it has an assault canon.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby boss » Sat 17 Nov, 2018 10:34 am

The reason people defend this cos there another better vehicle in t2 for eldar its called a falcon and it's better buy in almost all ways and yea wraithlords are not seen much so nerf it more and you won't at all.
Last edited by boss on Sat 17 Nov, 2018 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2.9 Balance List as of 10/28/18

Postby Asmon » Sat 17 Nov, 2018 4:28 pm

As I said before the ability is quite good so a slight nerf would be ok. To halve it is too much.

And it's true we see more falcons than WL so I understand toil when he says people haven't seen it in action. Once more we're reminded that falcon is just a safer vehicle choice and very good at power harass, which is something eldar can't always do in t1 so often you feel like you need to hit enemy's gens asap when you reach t2 and certainly won't buy a WL for this (even if with shuriken upgrade WL's alright at harassing).

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