TE | NoSkill wrote:
MU: Orks vs SM
Build; scouts with shotguns, 2x tacs with flamers/seargents, devastators into dreadnaught /plasmadev, then Termies or tanks
vs Waaghboss, 2x shootas and sluggas fully+ painboy, tankbustas and deffdread and wartrukk into nobz.
vs Mek, 2x shootas + sluggas fully, lootas, deffdread, stickbommaz and tankbustas into nobz or tanks/battlewaggon
vs Commando Nob, 2x shootas 2x sluggas fully, 2x tankbustas and wartukk into flashgitz or kommandos.
Ok ASM are kinda needed vs orks as APO imo. And Rites are good but Vials with enough good control (it can be hard to manage that) it pretty devastating.
Flamers??? No sir! Sluggas are fire resistance infantry. Better to save that money and spend it somewhere else.
2 devestators can be REALLY hard to deal with for orks in t1. An option could be 3 scouts into Dev, ASM, Dev. But you have to play defensively. And only get one shotguns and be VERY good about focus fire and using cover. IMO can only work vs warboss (maybe mek only if stormboys are being fielded though).
Dread with AC should be an Auto- purchase. Multimelta is also pretty god since then Orks cannot be too aggressive with Truck play. So long and the Dread is being supported.
Pdevs opens you up too much I'm. Whirlwind can work pretty well because it is mobile and can do some damage vs the Truck.
TE | NoSkill wrote:
Apo; SC in T1, then pack and stims.
scouts as anti-melee and dmg dealers with tacs and apo trying to tie up supported by devs in T1. Flamers work well against orkz, coz they have relatively low health and can supplement a powerbash.
In T2, pack would allow apo to get on shootas or tankbustas/stickbommaz and tie them up or duel the pain-/weirdboy and draining their energy in the worst cast. Meanwhile Assault Dread would decimate sluggas and waaghboss and plasma dev lend support, effectively overpowering the orcs with the apo disturbing the backline and facilitating a fast advance of the tacs into close range or melee.
Apo can hunt weirdboy/dok or mek, combo with assasins knife prolly not tho.
Can drain energy from weirdboy/dok or warboss or combat flash gitz and peel a bit extra dmg on nobs.
Sluggas would be focused down by tacs an eat KB from scouts, if needed. Waaghboss will get kited, Kommando/Mek/Dok tied up, same with Shootas.
Devastators for better control, Advanced targeting, if extra dmg is needed. Lascannon only, if orcs "spam" vehicles.
Dreadnaught as anti-slugga/Waaghboss/deff-dread, plasma devs to constantly pressure orcs.
That would rely on some good control work tho.
Nobs in T3 would need to be dragged down by massed fire and controll, apo jump disruption would help here and power melee can be nice.
Flash Gitz blob would need to be charged and tied up with sluggas focused down, jumpdisruption would help here.
Battlewaggon/tank then with lascannon supported by stims or heal in case of Zzap or explosive shot.
Tankbusters are kinda bad vs SM without Truck support. Plus Weirdboy. That one purchase will destroy a melee Jumping APO. Yes the Axe will drain his energy. But only 10 energy. And the Weirdboy gains energy mainly from the use of the ability Waagh!! So the Weirdboy will ALWAYS have energy. the APA will not stop the abilities from the Weird boy too much.
Warboss gets Special Shoota or Big Stomp. Melee APO is dead. Plus. You are in t2 with melee APO do you REALLY want to fight Ork melee in t2??? Are you REALLY sure you want power klaws to the face of your APO? You can to be shanked by the K nob? You want to be swarmed by Sluggas with their nob? Are you REALLY sure you want a deffdread to smack him in the face? Truck will save Shootas btw. You wont hit them with the APO much and if you get ASM with Bomb are going to be murdered by the focus fire and t2 Sluggas.
You are telling me you are join to jump the APO in to Nobs for disruption when Rites to that better and does not put the APO at risk of dying. Are you really sure that's what you want the melee Apo to do with his time? You are not going to convince me ever to have the APO melee a squad of t3 nobs. No fucking way dude. No fucking way is that something you should ever do. Even if there is only 2 models left and under 600 HP. Fuck no dude. APO will probably lose even that fight.
TE | NoSkill wrote:
Against Eldar apo is really risky, against warlock it is suicide. After getting raped, I think stormbolter is the best option here, except maybe against farseer (tho doombringer is nearly as big as an fuck you as merchiless blade).
Apo is no risky. Melee Apo is not too bad vs Eldar. But You have to have Rites. Stormbolter is best option though. Jump Pack Bolter APO is best option period. Melee Apo is bad if you are trying to be aggressive. Stormbolter is better because you can still support ASM but you can reposition the APO to be behind cover and be flanking the enemy. Plus he can still force melee. Melee Jumping APO = Bad.
TE | NoSkill wrote:So an jumppack would amplyfy the effectiveness of the bolter. Bolter has high dmg and stun ability, which denies the eldar momentum and plays on their low health.
Yep it will be best. But keep in mind it come in t2 too though. Are you 100% sure you want a support commander in t2 jumping behind elder to support ASM just to get piercing damage on DA's?
TE | NoSkill wrote:
SM vs Eldar
Build 1-1-1 with shotgun-scouts into assault cannon dread and/or Whirlwind and sternguards ; then termies with flamer.
Apo with purity armor and stormbolter, then jumppack. MAAAAAYBEEE the SC.
vs warlock with merciless
farseer with doombringer
WSE with advanced targeting
Ok so ASM is an iffy choice. Can work vs Warlock and Farseer. But IMO rites is a must. Stops shees for a bit and heals the momentarily stops the MASSIVE amount of damage they are going to take from Eldar.
BTW WSE will almost always get Heavy Gadge vs Apo. The KB to keep the Apo from healing effectively.
TE | NoSkill wrote:Initial engagement is lost anyway vs warlock. Vs Farseer prolly doable, put all dakka on banshees, then DA´s. Vs WSE it would only be slightly better then Warlock.
Huh? Shotguns needs to be your first purchase and you have to start the fight. Not wait for the Warlock to sprint. It is possible to win though, you need another scout though. Farseer? Easy. You see guide go off? Back off. Farseer can fleet in but she wont do any damage with APO aura around. Wait for Shotguns. WSE? You might lose here too. Warp Spider is going to tie up scouts or tacs as Shees move in. DAs will focus scouts or APO.
TE | NoSkill wrote:If Eldar goes heavy ranged with 2x platforms and or rangers, Apo goes Bolter and ASM, then Devs. Scouts with shotguns are mandatory to deal with shees and can flank and look for rangers.
If Eldar goes 2 Shurican you go one scout sniper imo. They will respond with a Ranger or play statically with DA's energy shield. You can then maneuver.
Ok dude you a mentrioned ASM WAY too much as am I though. Devestators are a unit dude. If they go 2 Shurican and you go scout sniper and Devs you dictate a lot if they play statically. You will bleed them pretty hard. You don't have to target Set ups. You see those nice looking DA's? Your tacs flamers are constantly trying to hit their power. (only if you both went that heavy t1).
TE | NoSkill wrote:healing Aura will help a bit at least.
If Eldar goes shooty with 3x DA´s, Apo could go melee, tho bolter would still be better to pick of models.
Um no. 3 DA's will shred apart APO. You do know he has 600 Hp level 1 right? If he uses Heal on himself you lost the first flight. Sometimes that is not the case though. Rarely but it does happen.
TE | NoSkill wrote:
In T2 Apo would support ASM or Tacs to stay alive or deal more dmg, aswell as emergency melee to tie disrupt things and tie them up for Sterns/dread to shoot it or other support to arrive.
Every time you mentioned a build ASM have been here. I asked you to not mention ASM with your builds and tactics etc. But they are here. I can accept one the first time you mentioned them. But you did so twice. I conclude right here that ASM are required for the Melee APO to be useful. That judgement of mine as not changed the moment I saw the Jump Pack Suggestion.
Now lets say you didn't have the ASM here. Different story right? What would you do instead? That's is something you need to answer too. Not Just focus on the Jump Pack. Again, I mentioned this and ill quote myself
"1: I want why you would get the Jump Pack over other wargear options and WHY they fall short. You would get the Jump Pack verse what because of WHY.
You have hardly done this. This was the BIGGEST test to see if you really understood your suggestion or not.
The other two point were for you to elaborate on the 1st point. Because that is how you really start to see what the core of a suggestion it. You cannot only look at the wargear and what it does. You have to look at the hero and what that hero COULD do in that situation you are struggling with. Is the Jump Pak the best option. Is there something better? Would a Jump Pack actually be impactful and change my disadvantage to an advantage and put me into the lead. Those are what I wanted.
Now I do acknowledge what you have done though. I think it was a step in the right direction. What you did in responding to me is I think the best response you have made yet. While it was not perfect it was more insight full toward the direction you wanted the APO to go. rather than just saying "I like to hit thing in the face." I think you next thing you could work on is also put in your arguments how the enemy will react to a purchase.
Or at least how you would expect them to react.
TE | NoSkill wrote:Btw, do flame dmg more dmg the closer u get ?
No. It doesn't increase.
Ill say this at the end for those who don't want to read this ENITRE thing. I don't think the Jump Pack Apo is necessary and I can't be swayed anymore. It relies too much on ASM to get work done and the wargear option comes out too late in t2 and won't have enough impact at all for the desired effect