Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
The Paladin
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby The Paladin » Fri 13 Jul, 2018 5:40 am

Codex wrote:I mean are we gonna recode the game so banshee specials behave completely differently?

I'm no modder but that seems like a weird thing to change with regards to animations syncing up.

And if it's not something we can change we should keep the discussion focussed on the other things.


What about reducing the size of the unit?
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Re: RE: Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Nurland » Fri 13 Jul, 2018 5:41 am

Atlas wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:Their fast attack animations


MS, your chance to special is 5% x the difference in your MS. So if your MS is 74 and theirs is 70, it's 20% to proc a special from an attack. A moving target has -2 MS and every level gained grants the squad +1 MS..


The special chance is 5% + 1% x the difference in melee skill

They do get more dice rolls in since out of higher melee skill T1 squads, they have the most squad members with Storms. Technically Storms have a better special chance since they have actually a good attack speed per model unlike Shees (Shees are average). But they have a shittier special I believe? Also Storms are a lot more niche purchase than Shees etc etc.

Lowering Banshee dps would be silly. Their damage isn't that high to begin with (damage type is good though). Even now Shees will lose to Sluggas (T1) if they don't get specials. T2 Sluggas more or less own Shees anyway.

Melee fights are inherently random in this game and Shees are one of the squads that kinda depend on it to win fights since they aren't super durable or have crazy high raw dps and that's kinda their thing. Ofc the power melee makes them scary against commander armor and (S)HI.

I see no reason in general to change how Banshees are.
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Codex
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Codex » Fri 13 Jul, 2018 6:01 am

Yeah, shees have a quality special which means that they can dominate squads by knocking down 3 or 4 models with a single special. But at the same time they rely on their specials to be cost efficient in melee.

As a rule of thumb they will crush anything that isn't a melee specialist 1v1, but they won't necessarily be cost efficient against any other dedicated melee squad.

But I'll leave you to decide, I've got to play more to be more sure of my exact opinion of shees.
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Re: RE: Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby The Paladin » Fri 13 Jul, 2018 6:45 am

Nurland wrote:
Atlas wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:Their fast attack animations


MS, your chance to special is 5% x the difference in your MS. So if your MS is 74 and theirs is 70, it's 20% to proc a special from an attack. A moving target has -2 MS and every level gained grants the squad +1 MS..


The special chance is 5% + 1% x the difference in melee skill

They do get more dice rolls in since out of higher melee skill T1 squads, they have the most squad members with Storms. Technically Storms have a better special chance since they have actually a good attack speed per model unlike Shees (Shees are average). But they have a shittier special I believe? Also Storms are a lot more niche purchase than Shees etc etc.

Lowering Banshee dps would be silly. Their damage isn't that high to begin with (damage type is good though). Even now Shees will lose to Sluggas (T1) if they don't get specials. T2 Sluggas more or less own Shees anyway.

Melee fights are inherently random in this game and Shees are one of the squads that kinda depend on it to win fights since they aren't super durable or have crazy high raw dps and that's kinda their thing. Ofc the power melee makes them scary against commander armor and (S)HI.

I see no reason in general to change how Banshees are.


Agree with this post and Asmon' s posts. Think appropriate counter is more viable than editing Banshees.
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Re: RE: Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Atlas » Fri 13 Jul, 2018 6:59 pm

Nurland wrote:
Atlas wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:Their fast attack animations


MS, your chance to special is 5% x the difference in your MS. So if your MS is 74 and theirs is 70, it's 20% to proc a special from an attack. A moving target has -2 MS and every level gained grants the squad +1 MS..


The special chance is 5% + 1% x the difference in melee skill


My bad, ty for the correction. On a second look, that seems way more plausible than what I said. :P
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Asmon » Sat 14 Jul, 2018 3:53 pm

But it's not 360 (in response to Cyris).
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Black Relic » Sat 14 Jul, 2018 5:30 pm

I think shees are fine. I have been considering just removing their domino strength for their special attacks in my mod for them and ending it there. The same might be reasonable here.

Since the AoE Special attacks actually pretty serious kb distance. And since it is 360, the odds are actually fairly high that a model that got knocked back hit will hit another model in a different in the same or different squad. That allow the shees to be able to effect two squads with their shout if only one model in a squad hit smacked over via domino kb.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Codex » Sat 14 Jul, 2018 5:47 pm

Asmon wrote:But it's not 360 (in response to Cyris).



Black Relic wrote:And since it is 360, the odds are actually fairly high that a model that got knocked back hit will hit another model in a different in the same or different squad. That allow the shees to be able to effect two squads with their shout if only one model in a squad hit smacked over via domino kb.



Oh my which is it?!

I don't even...
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby boss » Sat 14 Jul, 2018 5:56 pm

No it's 180 they don't kb behide them
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Torpid » Sat 14 Jul, 2018 5:56 pm

It isn't remotely 360...

It does have quite a long range on it though.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Black Relic » Sat 14 Jul, 2018 6:49 pm

OO yea my bad. Either way what i said stands though. Would hardly change much about them other than making double shees worse. If there is a good build like that (farseer maybe?)
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby lomors » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 5:43 pm

Leave banshees alone. It's taken a lot of balancing to make them in the position they are now and it's a delicate thing to do anyway. It's a risky thing for SM player to try fight shees on low health with tacs and it should feel that way in my opinion. It doesn't always turn out for banshees super good.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Thibix Magnus » Wed 18 Jul, 2018 11:42 am

Black Relic wrote:OO yea my bad. Either way what i said stands though. Would hardly change much about them other than making double shees worse. If there is a good build like that (farseer maybe?)


It's the only early T1 squad that we never ever see in pairs actually, unless anyone has an example. I absolutely love the 2x shees farseer but it doesn't win me games...

If anything, build diversity should be encouraged. The trap to avoid would be to accept to hurt double shees build because it's considered sub-optimal. If one day someone finds a play style that allows for 2x shees, the door should be kept open.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Codex » Wed 18 Jul, 2018 1:12 pm

I'm in the camp of banshees are fine. They're on the edge of if they get into melee in good shape they're good else they just die and feed.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby LOCALgHOST » Wed 18 Jul, 2018 2:47 pm

Banshees are good. period. not "too good", just good. Leave poor ginger babies alone. Melee skill is ok.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Asmon » Tue 24 Jul, 2018 12:44 am

Thibix Magnus wrote:blablabla double shees


Well you can play 2x shees with WL, channeling runes in t1 then CoS in t2. It works vs nids for example, you can try it against SM (not FC).

Also WSE with mass teleport loves several shees, though that's more of a teamgames' strategy.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Nurland » Tue 24 Jul, 2018 7:01 am

2 Shees is generally super risky especially now that their retreat killyness isn't quite what it used to be.

I think Shees have their strenghts ans weaknesses in a decent balance right now. They are just one of those units that can feel like utter op bs when you get a bit lucky with them and like utter garbage if you get a bit unlucky.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Codex » Tue 24 Jul, 2018 7:18 am

Lacia went 2 shees against me with FS on a big map. It's really not that bad a build in 1v1. As a rule of thumb in 1v1 melee heavy builds are just more generally
viable.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Nurland » Tue 24 Jul, 2018 10:28 am

Didn't Mathis use to do 3 DA, 2 Bansheemales?
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Codex » Tue 24 Jul, 2018 11:35 am

Not sure but it sounds viable if you have good micro and can get ahead. Also why bother with bansheemales, just sheemales will do.

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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Thibix Magnus » Wed 25 Jul, 2018 9:51 am

Asmon wrote:
Thibix Magnus wrote:blablabla double shees


Well you can play 2x shees with WL, channeling runes in t1 then CoS in t2. It works vs nids for example, you can try it against SM (not FC).

Also WSE with mass teleport loves several shees, though that's more of a teamgames' strategy.


I love 2shees+CoS in 3v3 wide maps but I've heard "never 2 shees" from team mates for so long... glad to hear it could work in other modes.

and if someone has the mindset for a melee-focused eldar build it must have been mathis indeed
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby boss » Tue 11 Sep, 2018 8:45 am

Mathis did 2 she's and 2 da mainly with wl tho don't see why it won't work with the other hero's.
Melee builds generally are easy to deal with since no range damage so if you can solve that don't see why not go down more melee rout
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Xen0tech » Mon 17 Sep, 2018 1:08 pm

Shees are fine. They have weakness to compensate what they do well.

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