Apothecary things

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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TE | NoSkill
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 10:25 pm

PianoMan wrote:
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Purification Vials is hard to hit and Purification Rites isn't very useful. Those are the main problems with Apo wargear.

Maybe add 100 health to RItes and lower the throwing animation of Vials to a normal grenade. Less damage also on Vials since it can be landed more easily.

rites aren't very useful?
https://dawnofwar.info/esl/match/34598315 nid player literally can't do shit because of rites, same thing happens in chaos vs apo match ups and the wargear helps a lot against eldar/catachans and orky melee stuff
vials aren't hard to hit if you combo it with something, they're just niche

@noskill i think you should be able to beat low level players before making such threads


Yeah, good thing it s tied to the heal, which you can get max 2 off on lvl 1; It factors in too smal in big engagements
Nids generally shoot apo to hell, even more so if he goes melee.

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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 10:28 pm

Cheekie Monkie wrote:Lore wise, I'm disappointed that no SM hero has the jump pack option, it makes so much more sense than teleporting in power armour. Balance wise, ehhh...



Why, apo would be perfect for this! Trade support for melee power and mobility; Apo has not that much potent weapon options or tankyness, so can t be that much abused
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Cheekie Monkie » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 10:35 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
Cheekie Monkie wrote:Lore wise, I'm disappointed that no SM hero has the jump pack option, it makes so much more sense than teleporting in power armour. Balance wise, ehhh...



Why, apo would be perfect for this! Trade support for melee power and mobility; Apo has not that much potent weapon options or tankyness, so can t be that much abused

The thing with jump packs is that it's both offensive and defensive, hence why I suggested the 'offence only' jump pack in my post, with the main concern being that it makes him too hard to nuke (which definitely should be his weakness).

But then again, if it's on the accessory slot and a jump costs 55-60 power it's not like he can spam his abilities without the axe anyway...
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby xXKageAsashinXx » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 11:04 pm

Do apothecaries even use jump packs?
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 11:24 pm

xXKageAsashinXx wrote:Do apothecaries even use jump packs?
Yes.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 11:32 pm

Every single commander with teleport (vanilla or through wargear) is an insufferable cunt to deal with in many matchups and maps. If apo gets a jump ability then you will be seeing a lot of "no apo" lobbies.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Atlas » Tue 10 Jul, 2018 11:34 pm

Hey, maybe swapping teleporter for jump pack on FC might finally be the telehammer nerf we all want :P

EDIT: Shot in the dark, but what if Armor of Purity gave extra healing amounts to the Apo if he casts it on himself? That might make melee Apos a bit more viable and the Purity armor a bit more useful in T1. Ranged Apos tend to go for Stims or the AoA in big team games instead so it might work.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 12:26 am

Oddnerd wrote:Every single commander with teleport (vanilla or through wargear) is an insufferable cunt to deal with in many matchups and maps. If apo gets a jump ability then you will be seeing a lot of "no apo" lobbies.


An jumppack is no teleport.

Besides as I said, what bullshittery could the apo possibly do?
Jump an vials? Not possible
Jump and purification? Not possible
Jump and go melee? Possible, but limits the support he can lend through aura and heal, if too far away.
Defensive jump with stormbolter? Less energy for the abilities he has.

Also jump has smaller range (I think) and costs more ( if teleports are streamlined to 35e).

Apo just has not the cheese power to be annoying enough.

Also if one would think of making melee apo more likeable, why not making combat stims upgrade grant him more melee dmg?
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Broodwich » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 12:30 am

there is just so much wrong here i can't even
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 1:31 am

:)
Broodwich wrote:there is just so much wrong here i can't even


Talk, act, think, eat ???
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Psycho » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 2:29 am

Atlas wrote:Hey. maybe swapping teleporter for jump pack on FC might finally be the telehammer nerf we all want :P

EDIT: Shot in the dark, but what if Armor of Purity gave extra healing amounts to the Apo if he casts it on himself? That might make melee Apos a bit more viable and the Purity armor a bit more useful in T1. Ranged Apos tend to go for Stims or the AoA in big team games instead so it might work.


JUST IMPLEMENT THE WALL OF TEXT I SUGGESTED TO YOU TIME AGO GOD DAMMIT
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 7:26 am

Atlas wrote:Hey, maybe swapping teleporter for jump pack on FC might finally be the telehammer nerf we all want :P


Say you're going to nerf his disruption and then add more :lol:
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 8:53 am

:D
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:
Atlas wrote:Hey, maybe swapping teleporter for jump pack on FC might finally be the telehammer nerf we all want :P


Say you're going to nerf his disruption and then add more :lol:


Teleports don t do disruption on impact, do they?
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby PianoMan » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 1:15 pm

Atlas wrote:Hey, maybe swapping teleporter for jump pack on FC might finally be the telehammer nerf we all want :P

EDIT: Shot in the dark, but what if Armor of Purity gave extra healing amounts to the Apo if he casts it on himself? That might make melee Apos a bit more viable and the Purity armor a bit more useful in T1. Ranged Apos tend to go for Stims or the AoA in big team games instead so it might work.


maybe ask people that actually play the apo and are good at it instead of this lobby which is just random 3v3 players talking about what they'd really like to see next xd
also melee apo is great, purity armor is good too and rites are in no way bad and obviously you wont go full melee apo in a 3v3 game just the same way you wont use ht charge to run into a 3v3 blob
noskill please play some games against actual high level players before you make such suggestions and no itchyjeve isn't good xd
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 3:07 pm

PianoMan wrote:
Atlas wrote:Hey, maybe swapping teleporter for jump pack on FC might finally be the telehammer nerf we all want :P

EDIT: Shot in the dark, but what if Armor of Purity gave extra healing amounts to the Apo if he casts it on himself? That might make melee Apos a bit more viable and the Purity armor a bit more useful in T1. Ranged Apos tend to go for Stims or the AoA in big team games instead so it might work.


maybe ask people that actually play the apo and are good at it instead of this lobby which is just random 3v3 players talking about what they'd really like to see next xd
also melee apo is great, purity armor is good too and rites are in no way bad and obviously you wont go full melee apo in a 3v3 game just the same way you wont use ht charge to run into a 3v3 blob
noskill please play some games against actual high level players before you make such suggestions and no itchyjeve isn't good xd


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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 6:28 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote::D
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:
Atlas wrote:Hey, maybe swapping teleporter for jump pack on FC might finally be the telehammer nerf we all want :P


Say you're going to nerf his disruption and then add more :lol:


Teleports don t do disruption on impact, do they?


Nope.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Atlas » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 6:47 pm

Meh, I don't see a reason why not to talk to whoever is here. 3v3ers are people too, my friend. But Parainoid did bring up a good point about Jetpack FC :P
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby PianoMan » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 7:31 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
PianoMan wrote:
Atlas wrote:Hey, maybe swapping teleporter for jump pack on FC might finally be the telehammer nerf we all want :P

EDIT: Shot in the dark, but what if Armor of Purity gave extra healing amounts to the Apo if he casts it on himself? That might make melee Apos a bit more viable and the Purity armor a bit more useful in T1. Ranged Apos tend to go for Stims or the AoA in big team games instead so it might work.


maybe ask people that actually play the apo and are good at it instead of this lobby which is just random 3v3 players talking about what they'd really like to see next xd
also melee apo is great, purity armor is good too and rites are in no way bad and obviously you wont go full melee apo in a 3v3 game just the same way you wont use ht charge to run into a 3v3 blob
noskill please play some games against actual high level players before you make such suggestions and no itchyjeve isn't good xd


Some "random" 3v3 players; I htink you made boss sad.

You say everythings fine and git gud. To that I´m not listening; elaborate more, if you want to achieve something

boss obsing your games or pounding one of your teammates doesn't mean shit
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Codex » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 7:53 pm

PianoMan, I can tell you're getting frustrated with the conversation. So maybe take a breather.

All things considered your arguments have boiled down to: "these wargears are fine, just watch these replays and people using apo properly." Which is what it is, if unsatisfying. You're just not convincing anyone on the other side with arguments like these. What the other side is noticing is that Apo has very 1-Dimensional build options in 3v3. This is an indisputable fact, and addressing their concerns directly is your best option for progressing this thread instead of "it's fine duh."

I believe that this isn't a play or a skill thing, it's merely a 3v3 thing. Everyone and their mother knows that you want to focus down the Apo, especially since F2 doesn't rez on the spot like in Vanilla. That means that melee builds are inherently very risky in 3v3. They are less so in 1v1 and 2v2 because the focus fire potential is very limited compared to 3v3. As a result I'm a pretty big fan of the Sanguine Chainsword (although take this with a pinch of salt: I haven't played in a few patches.)

Also bear in mind that Apo is a snowball hero in addition to SM being a snowball race as well. Do well early on, and you are far less likely to bleed models and give away a crapton of xp trying to get to your excellent lategame. Apo as well is an energy hungry hero, and his heal ability improves with every 2 levels. Basically, unnecessary Apo deaths can mean the difference between a level 3 apo and a level 9 apo. And to be fair the Apo is very vulnerable to getting run down in a melee retreat if he gets overcommitted, meaning there's all the more reason to go for ranged build.

If you want to make the builds more diverse for Apo in 3v3, your best shot is to give him a wargear that makes him more difficult to focus fire but doesn't particularly improve his synergy with his army nor his ability to heal. Perhaps something that gives him a disruptive influence just from his melee presence. But then that might just overlap in role with rites.

*shrugs*

I'm not convinced that we need to have increased melee apo viability in 3v3.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby PianoMan » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 8:28 pm

thanks codex i guess xd
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 8:55 pm

Thanks, that s what I asked for in an conversation.

An wargear, that does not improve synergy with army nor healing ?

Maybe an jumppack....
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Codex » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 8:59 pm

I strongly disagree. Jump pack as a disruptive influence would highly synergise with ASM.

ASM jump into Apo jump into merciless strike into Purification Rites is a lot of knockback and very hard to deal with without T2 vehicle units.

And Apo would be able to jump out of very bad situations, which might be too much utility for a hero that's supposed to be countered by focus firing him at range. I mean it's a fun concept but I just don't agree that it wouldn't synergise with his army.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby boss » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 9:23 pm

Jump pack on apo would only help to drain his energy and take away a wargear slot he already struggles to get heals off often without improved medical equipment.

You don't see his melee weapons cos without asm he just get gib all the time,with asm they take the pain not the apo so he might live to use his power axe for once

Apo snowball is shit compare to tm or fc sm is a race that can already get away with few losses if you can play well, only diffence is tm and fc can do inflict losses by themselves apo can't and only get a shit heal off which alot of the time he has to use on him self so yea and if your oppent got half a brain he just mass click and press apo.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Codex » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 9:53 pm

The issue isn't that the wargear would work too well in 3v3, but that it might work too well in 1v1, where mobility is even more important.

Yes, focus fire for apo is an issue. I even said so in my first post. But in 1v1 you already have ways to spread the play and lessen the overall ranged firepower that any unit has to eat. Besides, in any SM composition the frontline doesn't actually do that much damage, it's the shotguns and the grenades and the buffed tacs that are doing your staple damage. TM is an exception, but even then he needs investment and has weaknesses.

I definitely feel like power axe is a meh option but I have felt for a long time for SC has a place in 1v1 because it frees up his heal for himself, especially against more melee heavy compositions. This remains true even against ranged compositions because you can just stick the apo in heavy cover and let him heal off his bolt pistol.

Apo snowball is shit compared to FC and TM... mmmm I don't have the data from playing to support either way, but it's worth bearing in mind that Apo brings snowball in a different way but that doesn't necessarily mean worse. The way that Apo plays is to minimise time spent in base, and you can push your army just that bit further and longer. You can make big plays by baiting a bad fight from your opponent and swinging it with. a heal or a clutch rites. One of the worst things you can ever do with these sort of map control games is to retreat completely off the map, and Apo is very good at staying on the map. Is Apo a vulnerable pick in 3v3? Yes. But this game isn't only 3v3, nor 2v2, nor 1v1.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 11:29 pm

Codex wrote:I strongly disagree. Jump pack as a disruptive influence would highly synergise with ASM.

ASM jump into Apo jump into merciless strike into Purification Rites is a lot of knockback and very hard to deal with without T2 vehicle units.

And Apo would be able to jump out of very bad situations, which might be too much utility for a hero that's supposed to be countered by focus firing him at range. I mean it's a fun concept but I just don't agree that it wouldn't synergise with his army.


Yeah, an aggressive apo with less support cabability;

You can max get stims and heal off, cot jumppack occupies wargear slot.

If the jump costs 55e and you start at 120, you can max get 1 heal off immediatly and then without anointed axe, it takes an loong time, till you can support again with abilities and you only have your aura.
Rites can t even be equipt simultaniously with the pack then.


So an Aall-in tactic, you could say; Death Company-style.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Codex » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 6:34 am

Yeah but if jump pack existed, it would crowd out purification rites in terms of role. Potentially it would become the best wargear in slot, hands down, which as we've discussed is problematic.

I mean why wouldn't I pick up jump pack? Disruption on demand, escape for the apo, ability to close distance without taking damage. Sounds pretty awesome to me.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 9:49 am

Codex wrote:Yeah but if jump pack existed, it would crowd out purification rites in terms of role. Potentially it would become the best wargear in slot, hands down, which as we've discussed is problematic.

I mean why wouldn't I pick up jump pack? Disruption on demand, escape for the apo, ability to close distance without taking damage. Sounds pretty awesome to me.


Coz apos support capabilities go massively down, coz of energy use?
Even with anointed axe, Apo can t stick too long in melee and then he can only wait, till energy slowly crawls up.

Also no access to advanced med nor vials.
With jumppack, you cannot play apo with armor of apothecarion and even with combat stims it will get dicey, how often you can use it with then presumeably 120 energy.

As I said, jumppack drags apos broader support capabilities down and he could only support single targets, while beeing aggressive.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Codex » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 10:25 am

I mean that would depend on the stats you gave the jump pack. Would it really cost that much energy? If it does, then ofc no one will use it.

In the end, it feels like a t2 upgrade, where it is more than possible than apo is already levelled and getting some energy efficiency going.

Think about it from a 1v1 perspective. Unless you're going to make jump energy prohibitive, it's a better purificatiom rites. You've also got good reason to go sanguine chainswprd in t1 which helps apo get levels, which will help offset the energy usage.

Is vials that good past a certain point? Especially in t2?

I mean in my mind sanguine chainsword, armor of purity and jump pack sounds super solid. Yeah it's there to support one unit on point, but that's fine if you've been building some momentum in t1 and just reserving your heals for efficient heals onto asm instead of yourself.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Cheekie Monkie » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 10:29 am

Atlas wrote:Meh, I don't see a reason why not to talk to whoever is here. 3v3ers are people too, my friend. But Parainoid did bring up a good point about Jetpack FC :P

Finally, a champion of the common folk!

A jump pack need not necessarily be op or outshine the other wargears. Too much disruption and utility? Why not make it 60 energy and simply suppress the target zone like raptors.

But in making suggestions for new additions to the game we need to consider what makes elite great in the first place. The first thing is balance, especially in comparison to retail.

The second thing is that the most successful new additions have been necessary changes which flesh out the omissions and weaknesses of the different factions e.g. Raptors and ig mortar teams. The 'cool but unnecessary', for example dark reapers have been far less successful. Even grey knights are still vastly underplayed, cool in theory that they are!

On this basis, I don't really support adding in the jump pack, in the same vein that I don't think we should give him an AV weapon.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Cyris » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 4:04 pm

I fucking love the idea of swapping FC teleporter for a jetpack.

A lot of very reasonable points about the Apo brought up here, though I'm personally not in favor of him getting enhanced mobility.

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