Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Element
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Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Element » Sun 24 Jun, 2018 3:46 am

My question is very simple. Can we nerf the melee skill of banshees by like 5 so that they can't attain 3 specials in a row in a single engagement. Really though this is like not even counterable other than never allowing them in but they have to some time. The problem is they overperform when they do. I've literally seen them counter a squad of a full health tacs with 2/5 hp remaining. That's just completely bonkers to me and really problematic for the purposes of being able to make plans to generator bash when you know they can essentially be completely not even countered but on the verge of being wiped if you send them. Idk what is the community's opinion upon the matter. I just am not in favor in 3x knockback. I just can't be.
Last edited by Element on Sun 24 Jun, 2018 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Torpid » Sun 24 Jun, 2018 4:12 am

But it's no different to ASM/raptors or other elite t1 melee squads? I recall dual AG horms losing the other day really badly to a single burna slugga which half way through the fight got ssome support from shootas. How? The sluggas procced 3 specials instantly on my horms as they were leaping in. Did shit-loads due to the aoe and kb.

If, and I am not saying they are, shee specials are OP, surely that is a reason to nerf the actual special itself, the damage, the kb strength, the kb radius, rather than the frequency of the specials?
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Element » Sun 24 Jun, 2018 4:20 am

Perhaps that may be the way to go. All I know is that the matter the needs to be addressed. because 3x knockback with massive damage is just really imbalanced.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Vindicarex » Sun 24 Jun, 2018 5:17 am

Pretty sure ASM/raptors aren't scoring retreat kills left and right tho
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Black Relic » Sun 24 Jun, 2018 6:27 am

OR you can try and nerf the melee skill reduction of units that are moving. Because thats normally how shees get their specials. A Squad gets suppressed by their shout and then they lose melee skill giving the shees an edge.

But i dislike that tbh

There is another thing we can do to lower the retreating power of the shees and allow only their exarch to leap into combat. That alone will help tremendously in lowering their retreat killing power. Although she would need some range damage resistacne to help her from being instant sniped OR change the formation which can be done by allowing one other model of the shees to become a "leader" (she wont actually be a leader) and this will put the exarch at the back of the squad instead of the front. This would make her (the exarch) jump in as the other shees are in combat already (or pretty much already there).
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Phoenix » Sun 24 Jun, 2018 8:22 am

With 65 MS Banshees could still special tacs 3 times in a row, it is just slighty less likely. :P
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby oLev » Sun 24 Jun, 2018 8:55 am

Some melee commanders and units have specials which hinder more than help against units that are just moving away and do nothing but let them gain a lead. Banshees however have a MLG 360 spinning back kick special which reliably knocks down the models walking away at a considerable distance and seals their fate as the rest of the shees will inevitably all mob and kill it. The large radius 360 degree specials are probably the worst offenders, anyone remembers when nemesis strike squad was intolerably OP with their 360 degree special and it had to be tuned down to 180 or something?
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Nurland » Sun 24 Jun, 2018 9:01 am

65 MS Banshees would also be a rather shitty unit vs pretty much any other melee squad.

Strikes were also a strong ranged squad. They had better than Tac dps, Tac hp and were about as good as Shees in melee. Their melee performance wouldn't have been an issue if they weren't great in T1 ranged firefights as well.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby PianoMan » Sun 24 Jun, 2018 9:37 am

Element wrote:Perhaps that may be the way to go. All I know is that the matter the needs to be addressed. because 3x knockback with massive damage is just really imbalanced.


I wouldn't be calling things imbalanced if I didn't know how to properly use SM
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby LOCALgHOST » Sun 24 Jun, 2018 10:15 am

Element wrote:My question is very simple. Can we nerf the melee skill of banshees by like 5 so that they can't attain 3 specials in a row in a single engagement. Really though this is like not even counterable other than never allowing them in but they have to some time. The problem is they overperform when they do. I've literally seen them counter a squad of a full health tacs with 2/5 hp remaining. That's just completely bonkers to me and really problematic for the purposes of being able to make plans to generator bash when you know they can essentially be completely not even countered but on the verge of being wiped if you send them. Idk what is the community's opinion upon the matter. I just am not in favor in 3x knockback. I just can't be.


You just don't give a tac to a shees in melee. It's a core mechanic of the whole game: melee skill matters.
Ranged units got less, than 70, (some, like DA and termagaunts are 50MS), and Melee units got 70+ MS. You move - u got -1 ms, so... movin' tacs decay fast on power melee. But you got solutions: shotguns, grenades, focus fire, bionics, mines, BattleCry, Purification Rites, ASM, all of it works well.
Even apo's Vials will give that shees a "special" :) my lovely purification vials :)

I would see how shees go in melee vs stikkbommaz and genestealers/warriors with 65 MS and how they fly over the map in this case :)

PS: I miss the times Bionics got +10 MS :)
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Asmon » Sun 24 Jun, 2018 5:44 pm

Yea another nerf shees post.

Lowering MS is really stupid as it breaks the balance between melee squads.

Shees are meant to do specials, that's actually their only chance to win fights as their damage is average and their hp is lower than most dedicated melee, especially come T2. Now you can look at the caracteristics of their specials and compare it to others, but all I see at the moment is someone raging at banshees because he cannot counter them properly.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby boss » Sun 24 Jun, 2018 7:16 pm

Banshees are more or less fine atm I've not seen them do anything too broken for a long time anyways ;)
the knockbacks come to 2 or 3 thinks mainly she levels, oppent levels and luck same goes for all melee squads that can special shes only have 180 degree special I know it looks 360 but it not they just want to show off same goes for strike squads.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Cheekie Monkie » Mon 25 Jun, 2018 2:20 pm

I think chain knock backs are an inherent problem of the game and can't be easily fixed, it doesn't always happen but when it does it does make you rage.

It just happens more often with banshees due to the speed and area of their special - one little twirl and that 1 ton space marine goes flying.

If I could change anything, it's be to make all models who have been hit by weapon knock back to be immune to further weapon knock backs for x seconds, though I'm not sure if that can be implemented and it ruins a bunch of stuff like battle cry
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Atlas » Mon 25 Jun, 2018 8:27 pm

Cheekie Monkie wrote:If I could change anything, it's be to make all models who have been hit by weapon knock back to be immune to further weapon knock backs for x seconds, though I'm not sure if that can be implemented - though that ruins a bunch of stuff like battle cry


This is an interesting idea. My gut tells me this can probably happen as most jumps squads are temporarily immune to kback after landing and we might be able to copy that template as a reference. +1.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Oddnerd » Mon 25 Jun, 2018 9:04 pm

I've always hated specials... people in this community will use RNG as a dirty word but don't have any problem with random proccing specials. Madness.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Cheekie Monkie » Mon 25 Jun, 2018 9:16 pm

Oddnerd wrote:I've always hated specials... people in this community will use RNG as a dirty word but don't have any problem with random proccing specials. Madness.

I think it's what people consider between 'acceptable' and 'unacceptable' RNG. Not dropping models even at <50% HP, squad leaders randomly getting shot to pieces are all within the realms of the game we play, same with random proccing specials.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Black Relic » Tue 26 Jun, 2018 5:33 am

Well melee combat in 40K has had its random moments were someone who wouldn't have been able to overcome a powerhouse do so by pure chance. Like when the emperor was battling Horus on Vengeful Spirit (i think that is Horus' ship). When one Guardsmen is all it toke from the Emperor to turn the battle around. People shit on Guardsmen all the time but each one has pretty big balls. But that Guardsmen in particular, fucking massive balls.

I like to look at a special attack as a "heroic act" or a "WAAAGH" from an ork model for example. There is a way to make sure that the specific model that was knocked back wont be done so again for like 1 second as to not break anything in the game. But that is really tedious and boring.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Broodwich » Tue 26 Jun, 2018 5:54 pm

it doesn't happen super often, i'm fine with it as is. like boss said, shees haven't been doing anything bonkers for a while
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Codex » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 8:09 pm

I appreciate that this a partial necro, but I think it's worth mentioning:

Unless they've recoded the game (which I doubt), melee specials are only one-way, i.e. a 71 MS unit cannot be specialed by a 70 MS unit. You gain 1 MS for every level, think level 4 gives +2. (Nope it doesn't, it's 73)

Anyway, -5 is too much. It means that banshees could never special ASM or raptors, even with level 4.

Secondly, melee skill and specials are inherently random. They aren't implemented with pseudorandom distribution, and with true randomness, you can always get some BS chains. Like if I flipped enough heads, I could flip 10 heads in a row. This is despite the probability being 1 in 32 squared i.e. 1 in 1024 which is very small, less than 0.1%. But it will happen somewhere sometime.

3 specials in a row in a fair MS fight is like 5% to the power of 3, which is 1 in 20 cubed, 1 in 8000. Okay, that's bullshit, but only as bullshit as getting 13 heads in a row. Which will happen somewhere sometime.

Either we get rid of randomness entirely or accept that MS will fuck you sometimes. Nerfing banshee MS makes 0 sense considering how the mechanics work.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 9:44 pm

Codex wrote:Unless they've recoded the game (which I doubt), melee specials are only one-way, i.e. a 71 MS unit cannot be specialed by a 70 MS unit.
Most of the time but not always. You do lose 2 MS while moving. This doesn't apply when a unit is charging.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 11:32 pm

Their fast attack animations coupled with chain knockback rape any unit without support;

which is ok, Eldar should be good at what they do;

Their hp could be nerfed a bit or their cost upped, if any
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Atlas » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 12:49 am

TE | NoSkill wrote:Their fast attack animations


^ Is what is really the problem. As people are noting, it's not entirely random there's a basic formula for it.

If your MS is lower than the opponent's MS, you will never special them. If your MSs are equal, then each strike from both squads have a 5% to proc a special. If your MS is higher than the opponent's MS, your chance to special is 5% x the difference in your MS. So if your MS is 74 and theirs is 70, it's 20% to proc a special from an attack. A moving target has -2 MS and every level gained grants the squad +1 MS.

Where banshees just beat a lot of squads on though is attack speed. They just get more rolls on the dice than most other squads do and one special easily turns to more dice rolls for them vs the kback'd melee squad and it snowballs from there.

If this is really a problem, perhaps we can retune their attack speed and dph.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Asmon » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 12:53 am

Then if you decrease their attack speed they'll get more damage per hit and so more retreat kills... pick your poison :>
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Atlas » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 2:18 am

Asmon wrote:Then if you decrease their attack speed they'll get more damage per hit and so more retreat kills... pick your poison :>


Maybe we should just nerf them entirely :P
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby TE | NoSkill » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 3:49 am

Atlas wrote:
Asmon wrote:Then if you decrease their attack speed they'll get more damage per hit and so more retreat kills... pick your poison :>


Maybe we should just nerf them entirely :P


Which kind of?

Dmg nerf?

Hp nerf?

Both things would allow to combat them better.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Codex » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 6:32 am

Long story short, nerfing MS is not the way to go.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Atlas » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 7:10 am

TE | NoSkill wrote:Which kind of?

Dmg nerf?

Hp nerf?


Yes.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Psycho » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 8:22 am

No mention of the speed of the special itself? It makes quite a difference when the atrocious ASM special misses so many times vs a moving oponent while banshee special is so quick that it can hit a tac moving away.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Codex » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 11:58 am

I mean are we gonna recode the game so banshee specials behave completely differently?

I'm no modder but that seems like a weird thing to change with regards to animations syncing up.

And if it's not something we can change we should keep the discussion focussed on the other things.
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Re: Banshees Melee Skill too high?

Postby Cyris » Thu 12 Jul, 2018 4:09 pm

God I miss you Codex.

Banshees are mostly fine imo. Their attack speed is average for melee btw, 1.3s per attack. Sluggas and Warriors are 1s, KCSM and ASM are 1.3s. If anything, I agree their hp could go down a bit.

The 360 special is pretty nuts. Maybe a little less knockback distance or damage on just it?

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