2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Psycho » Tue 15 May, 2018 6:41 pm

egewithin wrote:- IG has walking medical bunkers

So just adding heal aura to the chimera?
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby egewithin » Tue 15 May, 2018 7:01 pm

Psycho wrote:
egewithin wrote:- IG has walking medical bunkers

So just adding heal aura to the chimera?


No, just gonna replace the Chimera model with the bunker.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby boss » Tue 15 May, 2018 7:17 pm

Reg9678 wrote:Coming back from vacation and it's impossible to quote or mention everything which was discussed before. Though it is nice to see this lively and mostly factually discussion here. I think we can conclude that there is a number of people not feeling to good about the Falcon while it's likely the best to wait for the changes coming in 2.8. Maybe some problems concerning it will be equalised once the Falcon's gen bash ability will be cut in half.

No comments on the changes to blind nades?



WTF ARE BLIND NADES?
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Rostam » Tue 15 May, 2018 7:21 pm

exactly
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Aetherion » Wed 16 May, 2018 2:24 am

Adeptus Noobus wrote:The scorch beam indicator should not be controversial at all since its always good to reveal hidden mechanics. That is not just about quality of life but balance actually.


Then I respectfully request that the tyranids indicators be given the same treatment as the eldar ones, so you know whether its spore mines, endless swarm, warriors or raveners or neurothrope's knockback thinggy. Also the space marine indicators as to whether it is a drop pod of nothing, tactical marines, ven dread, ranged or melee terminators. Of course, that will take up a great deal of the mod team's technical expertise so of course that will be subject to feasibility.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Reg9678 » Wed 16 May, 2018 12:40 pm

boss wrote:
Reg9678 wrote:Coming back from vacation and it's impossible to quote or mention everything which was discussed before. Though it is nice to see this lively and mostly factually discussion here. I think we can conclude that there is a number of people not feeling to good about the Falcon while it's likely the best to wait for the changes coming in 2.8. Maybe some problems concerning it will be equalised once the Falcon's gen bash ability will be cut in half.

No comments on the changes to blind nades?



WTF ARE BLIND NADES?




The ASM blind grenade. Like I wrote earlier: -A more or less experimental suggestion for ASM is to give them use to their blind grenade on T1. It's a heavily underused ability which may be because of it is locked behind a 20 energy upgrade(which no one will get for blind nade) and drains energy which could be otherwise used for a jump/melta. [There too different apporaches here: Either letting them start with this ability or bring them in line with Raptors(400/40) and give it as an upgrade(50/10)]. Being very similar to the Spotters smoke nade the blind nade itself certainly would fit well into T1 and it would also be balanced by it's energy drain and the often very wacky way squads in melee react to an order for a nade throw.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Rostam » Wed 16 May, 2018 1:14 pm

Blind nade has situational usage hence making it mostly garbage , why on blue berry balls would u throw those instead of jump or melta
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Swift » Wed 16 May, 2018 2:04 pm

Reg9678 wrote:
boss wrote:
Reg9678 wrote:Coming back from vacation and it's impossible to quote or mention everything which was discussed before. Though it is nice to see this lively and mostly factually discussion here. I think we can conclude that there is a number of people not feeling to good about the Falcon while it's likely the best to wait for the changes coming in 2.8. Maybe some problems concerning it will be equalised once the Falcon's gen bash ability will be cut in half.

No comments on the changes to blind nades?



WTF ARE BLIND NADES?




The ASM blind grenade. Like I wrote earlier: -A more or less experimental suggestion for ASM is to give them use to their blind grenade on T1. It's a heavily underused ability which may be because of it is locked behind a 20 energy upgrade(which no one will get for blind nade) and drains energy which could be otherwise used for a jump/melta. [There too different apporaches here: Either letting them start with this ability or bring them in line with Raptors(400/40) and give it as an upgrade(50/10)]. Being very similar to the Spotters smoke nade the blind nade itself certainly would fit well into T1 and it would also be balanced by it's energy drain and the often very wacky way squads in melee react to an order for a nade throw.

I think you'll find this is a common joke.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Phoenix » Wed 16 May, 2018 3:42 pm

I mean I wouldnt mind giving them a seperate Blind Grenade upgrade in t1 but who would purchase that? The rare occasions in that they are used are vs garrisons and turrets. SM t1 is already very capable to deal with garrisons (flamer/sniper scouts/grenades/apo vials/etc.). I guess you could use it to get out of an entrenched turret situation? Then again spending another 10 (?) power in t1 for a luxury perk as SM is risky.

Oh and lowering ASM base cost for that upgrade is a big no no. In fact that would be a huge ninja buff to ASM, I don't even know how you come up with that; do you think ASM are underperforming?
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Reg9678 » Wed 16 May, 2018 5:36 pm

Rostam wrote:Blind nade has situational usage hence making it mostly garbage , why on blue berry balls would u throw those instead of jump or melta


There are situations where you'd like to use it. For example if you couldn't force a setup team to retreat while your ASM already have to leave the field, they could throw the blind nade even on low energy for helping the rest of your forces to deal with suppression. However you're right that most often you want to use their energy to jump. Which is why this would make a subtle change imo.

Phoenix wrote:I mean I wouldnt mind giving them a seperate Blind Grenade upgrade in t1 but who would purchase that? The rare occasions in that they are used are vs garrisons and turrets. SM t1 is already very capable to deal with garrisons (flamer/sniper scouts/grenades/apo vials/etc.). I guess you could use it to get out of an entrenched turret situation? Then again spending another 10 (?) power in t1 for a luxury perk as SM is risky.

Oh and lowering ASM base cost for that upgrade is a big no no. In fact that would be a huge ninja buff to ASM, I don't even know how you come up with that; do you think ASM are underperforming?


No i don't think at all they're underperforming. It's just an idea to make an interesting ability seen more often, essentially bringing something new to experimentate with while seeming balanced. So basically stuff which helps a game staying alive. :) You're right about the cost changes, therefore I put in the brackets. Antandron already pointed out that this wouldnt't work.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Ace of Swords » Wed 16 May, 2018 5:44 pm

Separating blind nades from melta would be a huge nerf to them imo, unless you reduce the cost of meltas, I'd leave them as they are.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Broodwich » Wed 16 May, 2018 9:39 pm

i think of it as the melta alone is worth the upgrade, the blind nade is just a freebie you'll almost never use
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby newtonia » Wed 16 May, 2018 9:45 pm

Can Kaskrins have the repair ability?
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Black Relic » Wed 16 May, 2018 9:54 pm

make units hit by the blind grenades be unable to get back into a building once they get out of the building. Or make units caught by the grenade unable to get out of the building.

I didn't know you could use this to target turrets...then that means they are actually good but the ability is in the wrong place due to its availability only in t2. I wonder if people would be pissed off if ASM got it by default and ASM cost went up by like 10 or so to 485/50. I bet we would see the ability alot more if that was a change implemented. But it really is not necessary imo because they already have ways to quickly deal with garrisons and buildings (when flanked).
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Reg9678 » Wed 16 May, 2018 10:02 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:Separating blind nades from melta would be a huge nerf to them imo, unless you reduce the cost of meltas, I'd leave them as they are.


That's true and would be only possible with an initial cost reduction which isn't justifiable as we concluded. The only possibility left would be to let them start with the blind grenade as an additional goody while the Melta upgrade in T2 still costs 20 energy and basically gives you the same AV option. Imo that wouldn't be a nerf to the T2 upgrade as most people will only get it for the Melta Bomb anyway. Though I agree it's more difficult to implement this idea than I thought.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Rostam » Thu 17 May, 2018 12:40 am

how about replacing the plasma kasrikin with Melta kasrikin
Instead of Plasma kasrikin u can get Plasma GM which literally do same dmg, so why even bother geting pg kasrikin
Also nade launchers is their best option, basically the reason people should get kasrikins
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Swift » Thu 17 May, 2018 2:04 am

Rostam wrote:how about replacing the plasma kasrikin with Melta kasrikin
Instead of Plasma kasrikin u can get Plasma GM which literally do same dmg, so why even bother geting pg kasrikin
Also nade launchers is their best option, basically the reason people should get kasrikins

We had melta Kasrkin before and encouraging more Kasrkin spam is probably not the most entertaining thing in the world. Also, nothing wrong with plasma kasrkin, if IG want to lay down some fire vs HI/SHI late game then kasrkin are a good late game option for it (unlike Stormtroopers).
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Oddnerd » Thu 17 May, 2018 2:22 am

The comparison of Kasrkin and GMs isn't just about raw DPS comparisons. Kasrkin are also faster, have two grenades, an ability with speed boost and suppression immunity, and can get increased capping speed (also, I could have sworn they have decent melee damage for an IG ranged unit - not massive, but enough that I have sometimes wiped a low hp retreating model after activating their ability) . Unless you are purchasing Kasrkin as a strictly stand-and-shoot raw DPS unit, the comparison doesn't automatically render them redundant with GMs.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Black Relic » Fri 18 May, 2018 12:02 am

Wait hold on a minute. They have built in ability that grants a speed boost and suppression immunity???????? WTF? That's stupid though since it sounds like they performed so badly they needed a speed buff and suppression immunity in order to perform well. Most units that have an ability to ignore suppression and/or damage resistance have something taken away to compensate. Tacs move slower, nobs and sluggas their ability is locked behind red usage. Every Eldar unit have their damage output reduced when under the effects of Fleet of Foot (which make the global swift movement so good since it give every squad Fleet of Foot without the damage reduction). The only abilities that offer this things, or similar buff, without a negative should only be a hero ability or if the units role is to be a line breaker but they get one or the other.

How about instead when they are in cover they take no courage damage instead. Would have a reason for people to use build able cover form GMs late game. And then instead of a speed boost ability they just have a chance to dodge a range attack, say 10%. Making even light cover beastly. Fits the hold the line theme of IG. With the grenades, and capping speed they are still good skirmishers. Maybe even increase their speed to 5.5 to match the IG heros (although the LGs retinue is still locked in at speed of 5 when the LG himself is 5.5) to further emphasize their better training or expertise compared to other GMs.

Idk i just don't like the thought of a range unit having both of those things. Just sounds ridiculous to me and the only excuse for this is, again, because they were under performing and hard countered by suppression.



Also is there a reason as to why Sternguard is still limited to one? I get the reason for it in t2 but can we increase the cap by one in t3? I understand why Vanguard veteran squad is limited to one but not Sternguard.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Swift » Fri 18 May, 2018 12:11 am

Black Relic wrote:Wait hold on a minute. They have built in ability that grants a speed boost and suppression immunity???????? WTF? That's stupid though since it sounds like they performed so badly they needed a speed buff and suppression immunity in order to perform well. Most units that have an ability to ignore suppression and/or damage resistance have something taken away to compensate. Tacs move slower, nobs and sluggas their ability is locked behind red usage. Every Eldar unit have their damage output reduced when under the effects of Fleet of Foot (which make the global swift movement so good since it give every squad Fleet of Foot without the damage reduction). The only abilities that offer this things, or similar buff, without a negative should only be a hero ability or if the units role is to be a line breaker but they get one or the other.

How about instead when they are in cover they take no courage damage instead. Would have a reason for people to use build able cover form GMs late game. And then instead of a speed boost ability they just have a chance to dodge a range attack, say 10%. Making even light cover beastly. Fits the hold the line theme of IG. With the grenades, and capping speed they are still good skirmishers. Maybe even increase their speed to 5.5 to match the IG heros (although the LGs retinue is still locked in at speed of 5 when the LG himself is 5.5) to further emphasize their better training or expertise compared to other GMs.

Idk i just don't like the thought of a range unit having both of those things. Just sounds ridiculous to me and the only excuse for this is, again, because they were under performing and hard countered by suppression.



Also is there a reason as to why Sternguard is still limited to one? I get the reason for it in t2 but can we increase the cap by one in t3? I understand why Vanguard veteran squad is limited to one but not Sternguard.

If you're only just saying "wait that ability is stupid" after reading about it on the forum, it clearly wasn't bad enough that you even noticed it in game.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Black Relic » Fri 18 May, 2018 12:17 am

I haven't played Elite in 2 years until recently and i haven't even seen the unit used yet, nor do i play IG much and when i do get tanks. Because tanks.

If they have an ability like that and people chose overlook them in nearly every scenario then something is wrong. Since in that case they aren't a bad unit. They have suppression immunity AND a speed buff. Whats going on would be my question then?
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Torpid » Fri 18 May, 2018 1:00 am

I'd say kasrkin are really poorly designed atm. No obvious purpose and mish mash of all kinds of abilities.

I liek the idea of greater effect from green cover but I doubt it will be used as kasrkin are mainly used as skirmishing side cappers as in the main GM blob you use lemans.

Still deployable cover should have more utility. And kasrkin could use more direction...

Don't forget kasrkin are uniquely heavy infantry unlike every single other imperial guard ranged infantry. Usually more of a good thing since you don't get anti-HI vs IG unless ogryns are a huge problem, even then that's usually more power melee than plasma/inferno.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby SarDauk » Fri 18 May, 2018 1:17 am

What about a rework of kasrkin with the system of kit of stormtrooper ?
one making them range support for the main fight with grenade launchers and something like blindnade, sergeant give them a defense bonus, like range damage reduction or better green cover protection.

The other kit allowing them to do skirmishing, with a sprint capacity and the sgt offering the faster cap trait and better melee combat stats.

just a proposal.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Black Relic » Fri 18 May, 2018 1:42 am

That bring up the question of should Storm troops be the skirmisher type unit or should Kasrkin do so? In fact i would go so far as to say should catachans gain something to fit that role in t3 since they are,in my opinion, supposed to be a skirmisher after t2 since they are not a reliable line breaker after that point.

Once that question is answered then Kasrkin should come next because we have to flesh out units in earlier tiers and come to a consensus on those before Kasrkin come the topic, and a design can be made for them.


The Kasrkin are the elite of the already skilled Cadian planetary military forces and are chosen to serve in the Imperial Guard when they are still serving as Whiteshields (new recruits) in the Cadian Planetary Defence Forces. Their training is more than a match for that provided to the elite Imperial Storm Troopers (Kasrkin are the Cadian equivalent of the Storm Troopers) and they are utterly dedicated to the preservation of Cadia, whereas Imperial Storm Troopers are indoctrinated to provide for the defence of the entire Imperium of Man. Kasrkin soldiers are well-known amongst the Storm Trooper regiments assigned to Cadia, and are renowned for their ability to remain cool under fire in combat situations where even many other veteran Cadian Guardsmen would break.


http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Kasrki



Kasrkin are highly trained in the use of numerous heavy weapons, and are entrusted with special equipment of high quality and rare craftsmanship such as their Hellguns and Hotshot Lasguns, which are much more powerful versions of the normal Lasgun used by regular Guardsmen. They wear Carapace Armor and helmets sealed for hazardous environments. This armour also deflects and absorbs incoming projectiles far better than standard Imperial Guard Flak Armour. Kasrkin are also given minor biological modifications to allow them to move quickly despite their heavier gear. Kasrkin sergeants often wield rare and powerful equipment more commonly used by Imperial Guard officers such as Power Swords and hot-shot Laspistols. The Kasrkin often carry special weapons suited to their assault role on the battlefield and exceptional marksmanship, including Plasma Guns, Meltaguns, Grenade Launchers, and Flamers. Much like the elite Grenadiers, the Kasrkin carry both Frag Grenades and Krak Grenades and are extensively trained in the use of these weapons. Some chroniclers amongst the Tactica Imperialis have recorded a number of difficult fire fights in the Kasrkin's history that were resolved by the creative application of grenades.

The Kasrkin also have an ethos of duty and honour that is impressive for members of the Imperial Guard, who are usually far more interested simply in staying alive. Whereas the standard Storm Trooper is looked down upon by many different regiments of Imperial Guardsmen for their elite status, the Kasrkin are looked upon with great favour among the standard regiments of Cadian Shock Troops. They are the ultimate warriors of the Imperial Guard who fought against the Forces of Chaos, and they led the charge in the defence of Cadia from the Chaotic forces of Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade in 999.M41 that is currently still occupying much of the Fortress World's surface. To be a Kasrkin is to hold a position of honour, and all Cadians recognise this truth and the role they play in defending their world.



http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kasrkin


Its always good to read up on some lore behind a unit in 40K.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby egewithin » Fri 18 May, 2018 6:03 am

I always wanted to see Kasrikin as anti HI option with massive plasma damage. But for now, they only do one or two dps more than GM plasma guns at total. I don't like the idea that Leman Russ is a o brainier choice in T3 since you know, you either wait for a Baneblade or get a Leman Russ.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Nurland » Fri 18 May, 2018 10:35 am

They do roughly one third more plasma damage than GM and have extra range as well. The damage is also.more focused due to lower model count. So they are pretty decent against heavy infantry.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby TE | NoSkill » Fri 18 May, 2018 2:36 pm

Btw, is it intended for Kasrkin to give less red(12) then stormtroopers(14) ?
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Swift » Fri 18 May, 2018 9:57 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:Btw, is it intended for Kasrkin to give less red(12) then stormtroopers(14) ?

Probably not, and they were added so long ago that I don't know if anyone remembers why.

Perhaps because come tier 3 there's so much wipey stuff around that Kasrkin models dying here and there would give away too much red.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby LordKira007 » Sat 19 May, 2018 12:52 am

Chaos Space Marine Squad:
Upkeep cost increased from 1.92 to 2.55.
Can someone tell me what is the thinking behind this ? :(
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby newtonia » Sat 19 May, 2018 4:08 am

The Kasrkin are the elite of the already skilled Cadian planetary military forces and are chosen to serve in the Imperial Guard when they are still serving as Whiteshields (new recruits) in the Cadian Planetary Defence Forces. Their training is more than a match for that provided to the elite Imperial Storm Troopers (Kasrkin are the Cadian equivalent of the Storm Troopers) and they are utterly dedicated to the preservation of Cadia, whereas Imperial Storm Troopers are indoctrinated to provide for the defence of the entire Imperium of Man. Kasrkin soldiers are well-known amongst the Storm Trooper regiments assigned to Cadia, and are renowned for their ability to remain cool under fire in combat situations where even many other veteran Cadian Guardsmen would break.


http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Kasrki



Kasrkin are highly trained in the use of numerous heavy weapons, and are entrusted with special equipment of high quality and rare craftsmanship such as their Hellguns and Hotshot Lasguns, which are much more powerful versions of the normal Lasgun used by regular Guardsmen. They wear Carapace Armor and helmets sealed for hazardous environments. This armour also deflects and absorbs incoming projectiles far better than standard Imperial Guard Flak Armour. Kasrkin are also given minor biological modifications to allow them to move quickly despite their heavier gear. Kasrkin sergeants often wield rare and powerful equipment more commonly used by Imperial Guard officers such as Power Swords and hot-shot Laspistols. The Kasrkin often carry special weapons suited to their assault role on the battlefield and exceptional marksmanship, including Plasma Guns, Meltaguns, Grenade Launchers, and Flamers. Much like the elite Grenadiers, the Kasrkin carry both Frag Grenades and Krak Grenades and are extensively trained in the use of these weapons. Some chroniclers amongst the Tactica Imperialis have recorded a number of difficult fire fights in the Kasrkin's history that were resolved by the creative application of grenades.

The Kasrkin also have an ethos of duty and honour that is impressive for members of the Imperial Guard, who are usually far more interested simply in staying alive. Whereas the standard Storm Trooper is looked down upon by many different regiments of Imperial Guardsmen for their elite status, the Kasrkin are looked upon with great favour among the standard regiments of Cadian Shock Troops. They are the ultimate warriors of the Imperial Guard who fought against the Forces of Chaos, and they led the charge in the defence of Cadia from the Chaotic forces of Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade in 999.M41 that is currently still occupying much of the Fortress World's surface. To be a Kasrkin is to hold a position of honour, and all Cadians recognise this truth and the role they play in defending their world.



http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kasrkin


Its always good to read up on some lore behind a unit in 40K.[/quote]


Given that, I would like to table two suggestions to give players incentive to choose kaskrins from the other two options. Either give them the ability to repair or enable them to switch their gear for the same cost akin to how tacticial marines works or both. The reason why kaskrins are so rarely utilized is due to how underwhelming it performs given the kit it has. its a long range unit that has grenades as its source of utility which demands situations wherein kaskrins aren't in long range. You could you run them in, losing 50 energy, while being open to damage and knockback which makes them poor initiators, the nades only gets used as a counter against a push and honestly it doesn't even do that well. A frag could be easily dodged and wouldn't do much against units that the enemy would likely use to charge at you (nobs, seer council, asm, raptors, etc), and its hard to utilize the blind grenade since you want to put it at an opponents range squad which is rare given that its definitely better for you to just skirmish the enemy's range squad given the range of the kaskrins. the only nade that has great utility is the krak grenade as its easy to use and could surprise unwitting vehicles whom don't have any way to stun/knockback an infantry squad . When you compare them to ork commandos, who have a really good instant knockback ability, an area denial ability that does good dot, conceal ability, fast capping trait, can have great anti-tank capability while retaining their strong piercing damage and all the while could be called in using red, the ork commandos provide the ork t3 roster with a responsive versatile option and more importantly, a great unit to replace wiped leveled up ork shootas/tank bustas
By giving kaskrins the ability to repair and/or the ability to switch war gear (via repurchasing). They could finally act as the versatility t3 option that IG players would choose, especially in situations wherein 1 or 2 of his/her guardsmen got wiped.
I would even raise their cost by 150 rec and 15 power more power out of the gate as compensation.

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