Tyranids units cost too high

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Devon
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Devon » Mon 09 Apr, 2018 8:51 pm

@Riku

https://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/ ... e-overview

"Behave more intelligently (i.e. Termagaunts in synapse will find cover quicker and will often try and keep at range, out of synapse they are slower to respond)"

This is one of the early forms of basic synapse, I don't think they ever removed it from the game. IG and Chaos are strong in tier 1 as well. Why do they need heavy AV? Since Torpid's game is not good enough for you. Maybe you should post some of your Tyranid game plays vs high level players.

Nid eco is horrible. You get a look at it around 23:38 of this game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10F9EAlsktk
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Adeptus Noobus
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Mon 09 Apr, 2018 9:28 pm



Since we are using videos from way back in the past when the meta and factions were not completely re-designed. Looks to me like Nids can deal with walkers just fine. And their eco allows for multiple T3 walkers even though they are being bled continuously.

Also, how can your read all you have about how synapse boosts their dmg and hp significantly and not rethink your point of view. If their mechanics were to remain the way they are now AND receive price buffs they would steamroll every match.

It is not that we are against you, it is just that we are trying to show you how you are misinterpreting and overlooking certain facts.
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Dark Riku
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 09 Apr, 2018 9:56 pm

A GR article from 2009. Even back then that info was most likely incorrect.

Most Nid games are over in T1 because they DESTORY the opponent.
Devon wrote:Nid eco is horrible.
ERMWERGAWD. Nid eco so hoorible. I only get 3 fexes out in my games. I want at least 6. baff plx, unplayable race.
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Devon
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Devon » Mon 09 Apr, 2018 10:43 pm

@Noobus

You're showing a glitched transport killed by melee, this doesn't justify that Tyranids has good AV. And Dread was killed by a T3 Fex with venom cannon. VC Fex does horrible vs infantry as it cannon hit infantry. Try killing a transport that kites you with Tyranids, see how much they bleed. How fast would a lascannon Pred kill a melee dread? And it can kite and shoot whereas VC Fex cannont.

@Riku

Most Nid games are over in Tier 1, then you post you had to get 3 Fex out. Which is the truth? Post some of your game plays then, don't bring us games vs against noobs.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Kvn » Mon 09 Apr, 2018 11:32 pm

Devon wrote:VC Fex does horrible vs infantry as it cannon hit infantry.


I'm sorry, but this is just plain incorrect. The VC Fex is one of the few dedicated AV weapons that is still able to hurt infantry thanks to doing minor splash damage. In fact, it was nerfed a while back because it was way too good against infantry to the point where it could insta-gib Heretic squads and other light troops.

Devon wrote:Try killing a transport that kites you with Tyranids, see how much they bleed. How fast would a lascannon Pred kill a melee dread? And it can kite and shoot whereas VC Fex cannont.


Venom Fex doesn't usually need to. It has huge melee damage on its own, and though it doesn't have melee resist, it can chunk down walker hp from range before it has a chance to close in. And that's ignoring the fact that it can upgrade to either a melee variant or a huge-splash AI variant that still does well against vehicles because plasma-cannon damage. In fact, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to call all three of the Fex versions an anti-all upgrade (with situational niches, at least).

Devon wrote:Most Nid games are over in Tier 1, then you post you had to get 3 Fex out. Which is the truth? Post some of your game plays then, don't bring us games vs against noobs.


He's saying they can do both. They can crush the early game if left unchecked, and still do exceedingly well in the late game. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

Devon, I would strongly suggest you take a moment to step back and reevaluate what everyone has told you. By this point you're ignoring factual advice (such as synapse...) and trying to nitpick out tiny details that are minor issues at best. If you still want advice on playing Nids to a higher level, people have already told you the tips and tricks to do so.

As for replays, honestly, if anyone should be posting them it should be you. You're the one trying to demand changes, so you need to be the one who proves it should be changed in the first place. It doesn't fall to the people here to go out to prove that everything is fine, but on you to show games where Nid eco is outclassed when it shouldn't be or other similar problems you've been bringing up.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Devon » Mon 09 Apr, 2018 11:38 pm

@Kvn

Telling me synapse exist doesn't do anything. Anything can sound good on paper but when you test it, it sucks. Watch Torpid vs Noisy game then tell me what he could have done differently? Why can Noisy lose a FP and still stay in the game then build WL + FP. Torpid lost 1 Fex and he can't rebuilt it. He used all the available synapses and towers.

He's the one giving out expert advice on how to play Tyranids so he should post some games. Not "everyone" in this thread thinks Tyranids are fine.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Dullahan » Tue 10 Apr, 2018 12:23 am

Dark Riku wrote:I was going to make a wall of text but nobody reads those ,will just be ignored and I decided it's really not worth the time investment.

So here goes in short.
Synapse is a big thing. So are the towers. Use them properly. (Like don't run in your synapse creatures first)
Tyranids T1 is amazing. Pretty much everything has above average speed. I'm pretty sure that's self explanatory...
Not to mention their redic starting DPS they have now in Elite. Don't even need the upgrades any more.
Tyranids anti-infantry is amazing. They need 1 "weakness". Let them have it. I still don't see how their AV is in any way shape or form bad though.
Stop with this bullshit about "bad" Nid eco. Since when is having an overabundance of a resource a bad thing?? Fex trains are also a real thing.

TL;DR: Nids Stronk, L2P.


Devon wrote:Yes, There's many forms of Synapses that are used by Tyranids and correct me if I'm wrong, lesser Tyranids are more responsive under synapse.
They are not.


Their AV has no burst damage and no crowd control. They have ONE slow (Zoanthrope) compared to other factions having multiple slows. (I.e Lascannon, Meltabomb, Mines) Their only ranged AV vehicle (VC Fex) can be tied up in melee unlike say Predators.

Their antivehicle is completely reliant on expensive niche units like Genestealers, Lictors and Tyrant Guards engaging in melee.

Something like a Dreadnought/khorne dreadnought absolutely demolishes Tyranids because of so much of their AV being melee units. The only way to beat vehicles is if you demolish the rest of their army and then clean up the vehicles after.

Nids have two other big prominent weaknesses: AoE damage and Synapse Feedback.


Floating power is one of the worst things to happen in DoW2 economy because it's an irreversible mistake. You've bled too much and built too many gens and now you're constantly starved for requisition and can't do anything with your power. You're better off spending less req on power and having a more balanced economy because you're not constantly waiting for requisition to build stuff. (It also allows you to field units earlier because you can save so much money that you wastefully poor into generators that avail you nothing.)
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby boss » Tue 10 Apr, 2018 12:28 am

Kvn
Venom fex lost is splash, along with its bio plasma damage got change from plasma cannon to anti_vehicle_pvp so unless your using it to melee to don't do anything to infantry so idk what your on about.

it's not a stretch to say fexs upgrade do good vs all tho venom cannon not anymore cos most tanks/fire prism does that to even with upgrades aka pred get lascannons you loss a lot of splash and less accuracy to infantry but does more damage per shoot same goes for most other stuff apart from nurgle preds you loss most av damage but you gain other plus's.
Forums great more shit to talk about.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Kvn » Tue 10 Apr, 2018 12:29 am

Devon wrote:Telling me synapse exist doesn't do anything.
Anything can sound good on paper but when you test it, it sucks.


...Are you serious right now? Do you not understand how huge the synapse buffs are? How vital they are for literally every Tyranid unit? If you think synapse sucks, honestly I don't know what to tell you. It is one of the defining assets of the Tyranid army.

Devon wrote:Watch Torpid vs Noisy game then tell me what he could have done differently? Why can Noisy lose a FP and still stay in the game then build WL + FP. Torpid lost 1 Fex and he can't rebuilt it. He used all the available synapses and towers.


For starters, that replay is years out of date (played in 2014) so any balance conclusions you might draw from it are going to be flawed at best.

In addition, just because synapse exists doesn't mean it is impossible to beat. You don't auto-win just by buying it, and there are a LOT more factors at play in a high level game than just "Tyranid eco UP" when it comes to things like that. Why can Noisy lose a FP and stay in? Because he lost it during the middle of the game when there was still time to recover, and when he had the means and map control to do so. Why did Torpid lose when his Carnifex went down? Because he lost more than just his Carnifex, and also lost almost all map control at that point while playing against an Eldar player whose mobility would ensure getting any of it back would be an uphill struggle. Add that to the fact that VPs were starting to wind down, and you get an idea of why things happened the way they did.

Pointing to a game like that one and trying to make leaps in logic is not going to get you anywhere.

Devon wrote:He's the one giving out expert advice on how to play Tyranids so he should post some games. Not "everyone" in this thread thinks Tyranids are fine.


You want the thing changed. You need to prove it should be changed. That's how these things work. Just as an example, if you were to accuse someone of doing something, it falls to you to prove they did, and not on them to prove they didn't.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Kvn » Tue 10 Apr, 2018 12:34 am

boss wrote:Kvn
Venom fex lost is splash, along with its bio plasma damage got change from plasma cannon to anti_vehicle_pvp so unless your using it to melee to don't do anything to infantry so idk what your on about.


Did it really lose all the splash? I could have sworn that it was just toned down, but I may be wrong. Will have to recheck that. Even so, it is still not terrible against infantry because of its burst-firing pattern. That I know for certain, as many of my squads can attest to. :P

boss wrote:it's not a stretch to say fexs upgrade do good vs all tho venom cannon not anymore cos most tanks/fire prism does that to even with upgrades aka pred get lascannons you loss a lot of splash and less accuracy to infantry but does more damage per shoot same goes for most other stuff apart from nurgle preds you loss most av damage but you gain other plus's.


I wasn't debating the fact that other factions also have anti-all upgrades, but disputing that he seemed to imply Fex was a single-focus upgrade path. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Devon » Tue 10 Apr, 2018 3:26 am

@Kvn

Synapse buffs may sound great when you look at the % multiplyer but the base values of each units receiving the buffs is also an important factor. Even though it's a game from 2014, units made in that game have receivied no major changes, if anything, Eldar units got their price lowered and Ravs/Termas have their dps lowered in the current Elite patch. There's no major mistakes from both Torpid and Noisy besides the fact that Torpid lost AG warrs by not paying attention to them but same thing with Noisy not paying attention to his FP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10F9EAlsktk

Look at the 23:38 time mark, Noisy has 89 pop cap vs Torpid has about 78 pop cap. Req income is about 235 vs 185 (add 30 for uncapped point). The performance of both armies are about the same and things can go either way. Why should the Tyranids upkeep so high? Also Noisy has double vehicle grenades.

As for your point of defending Riku, he can't make claims if he can't back it up. He's saying he plays so many games using Tyranids and they are fine then have him show replays. I know he may be a good player himself but his Tyranid play isn't up to his SM play. And certainly not on par with Torpid or boss level.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Kvn » Tue 10 Apr, 2018 4:02 am

Devon wrote:Synapse buffs may sound great when you look at the % multiplyer but the base values of each units receiving the buffs is also an important factor.


...And? Tyranid units perform on a lower than average level individually, and a higher than average level under synapse. Especially if that synapse is specialized for their focus (melee/ranged). That is the whole point of Tyranids. If Gaunts/Gants performed on an average-or-higher level on their own, they'd become ludicrously difficult to fight against once synapse hit the field.

Devon wrote: There's no major mistakes from both Torpid and Noisy besides the fact that Torpid lost AG warrs by not paying attention to them but same thing with Noisy not paying attention to his FP.


Did you watch the same game? Pay attention in the last engagement. Both the venom brood and the Carnifex went down, leaving Raveners, 2x Termas, and Hormas against DA, Banshees, 2x Spiders, a Wraithlord, and a Fire Prism. He had no AV left, no synapse left, and was up against a force that was highly mobile and very good at denying ground. That was the killing blow. He didn't have time to rebuild, and there was no way he was going to push against that. Even if he'd been 1000/1000, he'd still likely have lost from that point. It had very little to do with his eco from there.

Devon wrote:Look at the 23:38 time mark, Noisy has 89 pop cap vs Torpid has about 78 pop cap. Req income is about 235 vs 185 (add 30 for uncapped point).


For starters, because Torpid had a lot more units on the field. As has been pointed out to you multiple times, Tyranids have low pop values for their squads, so 78 pop of Tyranids is not the same as 78 pop of other factions.

Devon wrote:The performance of both armies are about the same and things can go either way. Why should the Tyranids upkeep so high? Also Noisy has double vehicle grenades.


If you're going by a weight-class appearance, Tyranids had a massive advantage in terms of squad number and model count. The reason Noise was able to make such a decisive blow was thanks to the fact that his composition was one of the best possible against what he was up against, as well as his micromanagement skills in that final engagement. He played it smart with his composition, and used them how they needed to be used, sniping the two biggest threats to his heavy hitters and ensuring there wouldn't be retaliation afterwards since he didn't physically have time to rebuild even if the money had been there. This had very little to do with Tyranid upkeep.

Devon wrote:As for your point of defending Riku, he can't make claims if he can't back it up. He's saying he plays so many games using Tyranids and they are fine then have him show replays. I know he may be a good player himself but his Tyranid play isn't up to his SM play. And certainly not on par with Torpid or boss level.


Look. I'm not known for agreeing with Riku. The two of us have had a fair share of less than civil discussions, but the point stands that he's one of the best players out there, period. Like him or not, that's not really up for debate. You don't get to show up and start demanding that he go out of his way to play a dozen games to showcase how powerful Tyranids are for your viewing pleasure. That's a very rude and narcissistic thing to demand he do when YOU are the one asking for things to be changed. It's not specific to him either.

As it is so far, I'm sorry, but I'm getting tired of debating this with you. You've made it abundantly clear that you won't listen, and you're sounding more and more like someone who's just looking for conflict. If you really think pointing to a single long outdated game is proof that Tyranids are somehow crippled in the economy department despite how notorious their eco is, I don't have anything else to tell you.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Antandron » Tue 10 Apr, 2018 7:33 am

Devon wrote:Why should the Tyranids upkeep so high? Also Noisy has double vehicle grenades.


I am quite sure that Tyranid upkeep is about right from memory of comparing the upkeep of all the units. There is a bizarre exception where the Zoan and Neurothrope are 10 pop when literally every other subcommander is 5 pop (Librarian, Autarch, Painboy, Weirdboy, Vindicare) but their upkeep/pop is doubled to 5.1 from 2.55 so the upkeep is the same at 25.5.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Tue 10 Apr, 2018 10:00 am

Final 2 cents: if you deliberately ignore a key mechanic of a faction to base your theory of „nid eco weak“ on then this is a pointless discussion. You are doing the same mistakes new players make by comparing and analyzing stuff in a vacuum. Yes Nids will underperform if singled out - fun fact: Nids are never to be singled out but always to be under synapse. It’s a fucking core fucking mechanic for this faction. It’s like saying: Hey GM can’t solo Tacs and bleed tons of models - yes, but they are dirt cheap and can reinforce 2 for 1 etc. Do you see the pattern?
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Devon » Tue 10 Apr, 2018 5:14 pm

@Antandron

That's only one unit! And 10 pop cap for zoan is fair so that doesn't need to be changed.

@Noobus

First of all I'm not ignoring how Tyranids work. If you read some of my previous replies, synapse and entire roaster have been taken into account. Before in Elite where a high upkeep Tyranids worked simply because Tier 1 units received HP buff upon teching to T2 and further into T3. Since AG warriors buff received a nerfed with only providing 40% HP and Gants themselves don't have a HP boost. The problem only came into being with other factions received unit cost reduction, new units, and HP buffs. Simply put, they are falling behind in T2 and T3.

It is true that Guardsmen have high upkeep and low reinforce rate, but gants don't scale as well as they do.

Guardsmen:
Best repair in game, 20 HP per sec instead of 10
Low reinforce with double leader works on DA/WS, ie can cost your enemy more than you lose. Termas lose
Have plasma guns that do good damage vs Heavy and Super Heavy
Have reliable and better reinforce than Tyranids, transport and bunker
Have better suppression and AV support than Tyranids

Termagants fall behind in T2 compare to other T1 units. It doesn't help that when you buy venom brood for 400 because of ranged synapse. The AV can only be used vs walkers decently because lack of slow. It's horrible vs transports, transports can damage them and VC cannot finish it off in high level play. I hope the lowering of the upkeep makes it into next patch and test from there.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Devon » Tue 10 Apr, 2018 5:24 pm

@Noobus

You think I'm a new player? I'm been playing this game since 1.4 There is only war patch. I've watched so many top players play this game but I didn't play 1v1s until end of Chaos Rising. I have seen players Riku and Vindicare play couple years back so I know how well (good or bad, won't be mentioned) they do vs top 100 players. You think Tyranids are OP? You haven't seen much. Back when drop pods one shotted Fex upon landing. VC Fex used to be called screamer killer and built in T3 and Fex was in Tier 2. I know Caeltos did a great job with Tyranid balance at the beginning of Elite, even tho he played SM/Chaos mainly. If you don't know who Caeltos is, here's a link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edpy1Ep1FMU

And Dullahan here has also been here for a long time, and his opinion is reliable as he's not biased behind a faction. You can still find his forum posts on GR. PS, he's got a ton of knowledge as well.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby egewithin » Tue 10 Apr, 2018 5:41 pm

Devon wrote:@Noobus VC Fex used to be called screamer killer and built in T3 and Fex was in Tier 2.


Yeah, I would like to put a pin on that @Atlas @Torpid
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Forestradio » Tue 10 Apr, 2018 6:13 pm

If you're at all familiar with what little competitive scene Elite had you'll know that tournies were full of players switching to nids from their main race and instantly roflstomping their way through the competition with 0 effort.

As a reference Riku had a ~70% win rate with his main, apo, in tournies. Starting playing LA and that win rate jumped to 95%, hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I wonder what happened?

Termas lose against ranged units for cost because they are designed against melee with high natural speed and a disable that can't be countered with suppression/kback immunity...

Nids are not going back to the way they were in 2.2, or 2.1. Ever.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Devon » Tue 10 Apr, 2018 6:49 pm

@Forest

Show some replays.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Forestradio » Tue 10 Apr, 2018 7:04 pm

Riku's old tourney gaems are readily there on indrid's and maestro cretella's channels
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 12:21 am

Dullahan wrote:Their AV has no burst damage and no crowd control. They have ONE slow (Zoanthrope) compared to other factions having multiple slows. (I.e Lascannon, Meltabomb, Mines) Their only ranged AV vehicle (VC Fex) can be tied up in melee unlike say Predators.

Their antivehicle is completely reliant on expensive niche units like Genestealers, Lictors and Tyrant Guards engaging in melee.

Something like a Dreadnought/khorne dreadnought absolutely demolishes Tyranids because of so much of their AV being melee units. The only way to beat vehicles is if you demolish the rest of their army and then clean up the vehicles after.

Nids have two other big prominent weaknesses: AoE damage and Synapse Feedback.

Floating power is one of the worst things to happen in DoW2 economy because it's an irreversible mistake. You've bled too much and built too many gens and now you're constantly starved for requisition and can't do anything with your power. You're better off spending less req on power and having a more balanced economy because you're not constantly waiting for requisition to build stuff. (It also allows you to field units earlier because you can save so much money that you wastefully poor into generators that avail you nothing.)
The zoan focused warp blast is very much burst damage, so is the venom cannon fex.
Zoans do not slow in Elite... Warriors have a 3rd upgrade now that gives them a meltabomb like ability on top of a small speed increase and an extra anti-infantry ability. Tyranids have forever had rippers to slow vehicles as well. People are just to fixed in their old ways to use them. You can build them from the amazing Elite added capillary towers.

You make it sounds like a straight up downside that the fex can be tied up in melee. But it's not that black and white. The fex still being a threat in melee is a boon imo, not a downside. A fex can hold it's own in combat while a tank could not. Not to mention the pathing for tanks is just straight up horrible in this game. Also while trying to micro your tank backwards it will fire at the closest target. Usually not the one you want to be shooting at. Also semi-fixed with the hold fire function. Path blocking is also a thing. Maybe not and intended "game feature" but something that is being used all the time. Capillary towers are also usable for this.

Their AV is not completely reliant on heavy melee. Venom warriors are amazing. Every hero also has a good AV option or an option to help dealing with vehicles. It's very unwise to get a melee vehicle vs Nids. It's so easy to deal with if you have some venoms.

Floating power is better than being starved out of power. But you are right. A better balanced eco is always preferable. But that's the fault of the player. The ingame Tyranid economics are definitely nowhere near as bad as some people falsely claim it to be.


Devon wrote:Synapse buffs may sound great when you look at the % multiplyer but the base values of each units receiving the buffs is also an important factor. Even though it's a game from 2014, units made in that game have receivied no major changes, if anything, Eldar units got their price lowered and Ravs/Termas have their dps lowered in the current Elite patch. There's no major mistakes from both Torpid and Noisy besides the fact that Torpid lost AG warrs by not paying attention to them but same thing with Noisy not paying attention to his FP.
I'm done arguing with you. All I'm going to say is, so much wrong...
And Tyranids upkeep is fine. Compare the numbers already.
Devon wrote:As for your point of defending Riku, he can't make claims if he can't back it up. He's saying he plays so many games using Tyranids and they are fine then have him show replays. I know he may be a good player himself but his Tyranid play isn't up to his SM play. And certainly not on par with Torpid or boss level.
Go to the ESL ladder or look up some past tournaments. I'm not spending any more time helping someone like you.


Forestradio wrote:As a reference Riku had a ~70% win rate with his main, apo, in tournies. Starting playing LA and that win rate jumped to 95%, hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I wonder what happened?
So much this :D
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Broodwich » Thu 12 Apr, 2018 8:32 am

Devon = Gorbles?

striking similarities
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Oddnerd » Thu 12 Apr, 2018 4:20 pm

Yeah I had wondered the same thing, the style of argument is uncannily similar.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Dark Riku » Thu 12 Apr, 2018 4:24 pm

@Devon?

LA Win vs Lomors WL Elderp. 2018
LA loss vs Vindi FC cuz horms are stuck in terrain. Pretty bad map for Nids anyway. 2017
LA loss vs Vindi FC. Don't remember, not gonna watch. Guess I got owned? 2017
La loss vs Vindi sorc. A game of me being sick (as in ill IRL) Not the best point of reference. 2016 After almost 4 months of inactivity too I have to add.
HT win VS Vinid sorc. 2016 After almost 4 months of inactivity too I have to add.
La win VS Tex Apo. 2016 After almost 4 months of inactivity too I have to add.

What's the point of you linking these?
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby egewithin » Fri 13 Apr, 2018 6:25 pm

Okay, no offence, but I am just putting this out there, maybe you are just bad with Tyranids? Ever thoughed about that before?

For example, I am bad with Eldar so I don't complain about DR are too fragile and stuff. So, I don't play Eldar. Problem solved.
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