Tyranids units cost too high

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Devon
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Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Devon » Tue 03 Apr, 2018 3:09 am

Generally I play random in retail and Elite. Tyranids particularly in Elite cost too much compare to other factions.

Almost all units in tier 1 got a cost reduction (Retail into Elite) but gants with upgrades are still high and endless swarm was nerfed from adding two members to 10%. This results in other factions fielding more units. On top of Tyranids bleed most (highest number per squad). You simply fall behind.

SM can scale so well into T3 but gants have so much trouble even in T2. Every time I play Tyranids, I feel like I have hard time engaging in T2 unless I build zoans. But This never happens with other factions.

It just simply doesn’t make sense that SM gets free tac plus brood best for 300/100 while without number call in doesn’t scale and cost so high.

At the moment two tac two scout counters so many units of Tyranid T2. Similar feeling when it’s tyranids vs other factions. For example 2Da + Shees vs Horma + 2Terma.

I suggest reduce req cost of most Tyranids, particularly Gants and some of T2 units.
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Forestradio
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Forestradio » Tue 03 Apr, 2018 1:45 pm

Gaunts/gants are already cheaper than retail

nids are meant to be a req-dependent race, it's how their eco works

the old endless swarm was rofl op, 25% hp and dmg for 15 power that also didn't add upkeep or population? it was literally impossible to kill nid blobs without something like dark flames+curse of tzeentch

Devon wrote:On top of Tyranids bleed most (highest number per squad)
That's not how squad reinforcement costs are calculated...

Devon wrote:For example 2Da + Shees vs Horma + 2Terma.
2 DA+shees is already more expensive than horma+2 termas as well as being slower so as the nid you shouldn't take that fight unless you're sure you can win it...



come back with some matchup specific stuff that's not just throwing units together...
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Blood Dragon
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Blood Dragon » Tue 03 Apr, 2018 2:18 pm

Most of nids player claiming that nids is utterly shitty faction and cannot win any match up especially vs ig (most of the time i see that nids players claming ig to be op) maybe nerf ig and buff nids so that flow of whining will stop.
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Dark Riku
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 03 Apr, 2018 3:17 pm

Maybe The Tyranid playstyle just isn't your thing?
Tyranids should definitely not have much trouble against SM.

Don't compare 2 things in vacuum. I'll reverse it around.
Why can Nids put down a brood nest for only 100 red while Space Marines have to call down a tac squad and pay 300 req without even having a healing aura?! ;)
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Torpid
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Torpid » Tue 03 Apr, 2018 5:42 pm

Devon wrote:Generally I play random in retail and Elite. Tyranids particularly in Elite cost too much compare to other factions.

Almost all units in tier 1 got a cost reduction (Retail into Elite) but gants with upgrades are still high and endless swarm was nerfed from adding two members to 10%. This results in other factions fielding more units. On top of Tyranids bleed most (highest number per squad). You simply fall behind.

SM can scale so well into T3 but gants have so much trouble even in T2. Every time I play Tyranids, I feel like I have hard time engaging in T2 unless I build zoans. But This never happens with other factions.

It just simply doesn’t make sense that SM gets free tac plus brood best for 300/100 while without number call in doesn’t scale and cost so high.

At the moment two tac two scout counters so many units of Tyranid T2. Similar feeling when it’s tyranids vs other factions. For example 2Da + Shees vs Horma + 2Terma.

I suggest reduce req cost of most Tyranids, particularly Gants and some of T2 units.


Retail has gaunts costing 270 for terms and 300 for horms IIRC whereas both are 240 in elite. So... not sure why you think they are too expensive in elite? Nids don't bleed a lot, with synapse they are incredibly tanky per model for their req cost, comparable to IG. Futhermore due to gaunts being so low in pop cost you will float excess req since very few of your units are taxed on their upkeep. 3 gaunts = 24 pop = no req tax until t1.5. No other race has a viable opening composition that does this. And the gaunts get 2 upgrades which don't add leaders. Synapse is a buff for them that doesn't add leaders. This makes their pop effiiciency even better. AND on top of that nids are the fastest race in the game. Termagants being speed 6 and horms being speed 6.5 outspeeds literally every race meaning more map control which is compounded by the fact that their low pop cost per squad means they have more squads than other races therefore they have more capping power than other races.

Personally I think in elite the TG is the way to go in T2 in most MUs except perhaps eldar. Gives you amazing staying power and dps increase for so cheap. But yes, your gaunts need synapse in order to beat upgraded t2 units. That's fair since otherwise even with their eternal swarm upgrade they still are a 8 pop low upkeep squad. Remember melee/ranged synapse doesn't add pop.

Just get a barbed strangler vs 2 tac/2 scout and the SM can't really do anything. Then if they get ASM on top of that you get a 2nd horm, if they get devs you get ravs.

Try the comparison between 2 horms and 2 terms vs 2 da and 1 shee because that is similar pop cost and upkeep. You will find even without synapse buffs that the gaunts easily beat the eldar in such a fight even head-on, nevermind if you flank with the horms into the DA and catch the shees alone to crippling poison in which case the eldar loses VERY badly.

Additionally at an equal skill level a tyranid should -always- vs every single race be ahead in tech. Tyranid should never fall behind in tech or you are playing poorly. By the time your TG spawns in your base in T2, or your zoan, venom or T2 ravs, your opponent should only be 50% of the way teched to T2.

Blood Dragon wrote:Most of nids player claiming that nids is utterly shitty faction and cannot win any match up especially vs ig (most of the time i see that nids players claming ig to be op) maybe nerf ig and buff nids so that flow of whining will stop.


No because the game is asymmetrically balanced and bad MUs do exist. Though I very rarely see people adapting. Vs IG you obviously need to go triple terms -> BSWB -> venom + zoan in T2. Yet I still see horms with upgrades, 2 terms, ravs even and sometimes Tgs in t2! Bizarre. Or charge on the HT when improved synapse is far better.

If we were to nerf IG to make nid players happy then IG players will be unhappy because they will useless in hard MUs for them like eldar and SM.
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Schepp himself
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Schepp himself » Tue 03 Apr, 2018 7:06 pm

Torpid wrote: [...]
No because the game is asymmetrically balanced and bad MUs do exist. Though I very rarely see people adapting. Vs IG you obviously need to go triple terms -> BSWB -> venom + zoan in T2. Yet I still see horms with upgrades, 2 terms, ravs even and sometimes Tgs in t2! Bizarre. Or charge on the HT when improved synapse is far better. [...]


...have you watched my games?! Guilty as charged. The hardest thing for me as a beginner is to analyse all the different options the enemy throws at me and change my build order accordingly. Or just stick to a general "good" BO against a certain race.

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Devon
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Devon » Tue 03 Apr, 2018 11:00 pm

@Forest

It isn't fair to say it was a flat 25% increase (10 models instead of 8) as more model counts mean Tyranids are more vulnerable to AOE than just increasing HP by 25%. What I meant by Tyranids bleed most is that they have one of the highest model count factions, not their reinforce cost was higher cause its reinforce cost is based on base cost of the squad.

Banshees/2xDA is a fair comparison because it's not far off. The DA dps is super high without upgrades and even with upgrades, DA still outdps terma. Banshees having higher melee skill makes Hormas bad vs them. So Eldar has range dps advantage and melee advantage, on top it's easier for 5 model to get in cover than 8. Although this match up is less of a problem if you're HT but what about the two other commanders?

@Riku

300/100 is too low for a tac, most factions have req unit call in close to their regular req cost but not tacs ( ST are 200 req). I do fairly well in Retail with all factions but just not Tyranids in Elite.

@Torpid

The current cost for terma is actually 260 in Elite and toxins are 75/15. In Retail they are 270 plus 50/15 for toxins. So Elite termas are 335/15 vs 320/15 in Retail. Their overall dps is actually decreased by about 2 I believe. The biggest problem is that almost all units req cost are decreased across the board but Tyranids only have hormas decreased. In Elite, both ravs and catas have their upgrades combined into the unit but ravs cost are higher than catas, so fielding unit is harder and reinforce cost is higher.

To sum it up, most units got their cost reduced but not Tyranids with the exception of Hormas (they also received slightly dps nerf).
Last edited by Devon on Tue 03 Apr, 2018 11:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Oddnerd
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 03 Apr, 2018 11:08 pm

Like Torpid said, the nid eco is so powerful in the early game because of how little population it requires.

Take the standard 1 hormagaunt and 2 termagant opening. You can buy fairly inexpensive upgrades that make them both strong enough to compete with other races' T1 units and neither upgrade increases their pop cost (unlike sargeant upgrades for other races). This brings you to 24 population. This means that if your build order is to upgrade the three gaunts/gants before getting any T1.5 units, you are spending that whole time completely upkeep free.

Then when you get a warrior or ravener brood, your pop comes out to either 39 or 36, respectively. If you calculate the upkeep for the 9 points of warrior population or 6 points of ravener population, it comes out 22.95 or 19.125 req/minute respectively.

EDIT - For comparison: a SM player who gets 2 scout squads with sargeants, a tac squad, and a dev, will have an upkeep of 53.55. If he gets ASM instead of devs, that comes out to 61.2 req/min upkeep. I'm basing my calculations off the codex so my info is only as correct as the current data. Don't take my word for it because I'm not a good 1v1 player, but in 3v3 a Hive Tyrant or RA with 3 gaunts/gants and a single T1.5 unit could fight either of the SM armies that I have calculated here.
Last edited by Oddnerd on Wed 04 Apr, 2018 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Torpid
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Torpid » Tue 03 Apr, 2018 11:33 pm

@devon

We buffed termagant starting dps to compensate for the fact that the upgrade costs more req. Termagants in elite mod perform significantly better out of the gate than on retail meaning you actually do have a chance in those first engagements especially vs tanky melee heroes and the difference in dps w/ toxin sacs in current elite vs retail is negligible, it's about 0.2 of a dps for the entire squad.

I think given that their starting price and the price on toxin sacs is pretty fair tbh. I'd pay 90/15 on toxin sacs for the starting dps in elite rather than the pitiful starting dps of terms in retail and only paying 50/15. I want more squads out ASAP as nids and I don't want to feel like I have to waste my first bit of power on my initial gaunt squads.
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Forestradio
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Forestradio » Wed 04 Apr, 2018 1:38 am

Devon wrote:It isn't fair to say it was a flat 25% increase (10 models instead of 8) as more model counts mean Tyranids are more vulnerable to AOE than just increasing HP by 25%
ah yes the famed AoE weakness of nids, if only they had some kind of natural high speed to move away
perhaps Elite could have further helped them by adding a global ability that gives even more speed. perhaps such a global could have a very low cost and extend the buff in a very large radius?

Devon wrote:What I meant by Tyranids bleed most is that they have one of the highest model count factions, not their reinforce cost was higher cause its reinforce cost is based on base cost of the squad.
they lose more models and the models cost less so it all adds up to the same anyways? the bleed from gaunts/gants is low and constant, compared to other units their bleed is higher and happens in spikes

Devon wrote:Banshees/2xDA is a fair comparison because it's not far off. The DA dps is super high without upgrades and even with upgrades, DA still outdps terma. Banshees having higher melee skill makes Hormas bad vs them. So Eldar has range dps advantage and melee advantage, on top it's easier for 5 model to get in cover than 8. Although this match up is less of a problem if you're HT but what about the two other commanders?
reread what i already wrote, you have the speed advantage and can choose exactly when you want to engage
it's not a fair comparison and i have no idea what you mean by far-off
yes, shees counter hormas and da counter terma before power. Hormas counter DA and termas counter shees...
RA is very fast and has a very bursty high dps ranged attack that murders DA models and does heavy damage to shees plus he has a melee charge and can tie up DA if need be
LA hook is devastating to shees and his infiltration and high speed let him stay right on top of DA--usually instantly forcing them off if he surprises them
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Devon » Wed 04 Apr, 2018 3:08 am

@Torpid
Was Terma at one point 240 req? If we were paying 90/15 for toxins. Definitely won’t see more squads out.

@Forest
Think of it this way. Heroes do a good job of bleeding in units without having to replenish him/her without req because commanders are one entity so it’s fairly hard to lose them. So the chance of retreating tacs at 40% with 3 models surviving is higher than 8 model gants. Because there’s scatter in the game and 6 model sluggas are not all going to concentrate on one model. Thus higher number squads tend to bleed more.

It feels bad when you can stomp the same player over and over then when you get Tyranids from going random, you feel like you have to be super careful in T1/T2.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby boss » Wed 04 Apr, 2018 6:02 am

Its not the fact that tyranids units cost a lot, its the fact that they pay more upkeep than other races that I know.

When you go over 30 population you tax's the highest upkeep per pop from what atlas has told me now from what I know only gaunts and sub hero are diffent standard upkeep is 2.55,gaunts have 3.825 for some reason and what oddnerd has said is wrong you pay the highest not the lowest from when you go over 30 pop and since warriors and raveners have standard upkeep they won't pay and from what I know no other t1 starting units have more upkeep per pop.

So as the game goes on and you add more units you pay for them all and since they don't have standard upkeep you have a lot less rec income than you should unless you have more rec points to cover this up unless you lost all your gaunts and cos of this encouragers you to lose them :(

So from this tyranids units are not high cost just for some reason you are playing more rec income then you should be.

As for match's up I hate ig as tyranids on an same skill level there's not much you can do unless they fuck up somehow
eldar depends what they do but most eldar players just go falcon and let that carry them to a win since nids tyranids have such great av :lol:
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Crewfinity » Wed 04 Apr, 2018 11:11 am

That seems like an incorrect assesment. Some tyranid units have higher than average upkeep per population, but in general the tyranid faction has low population values per squad. So overall you're paying higher than average upkeep on lower than average population, so they have a big early game advantage (before any big upkeep values start to apply), and a slight disadvantage in the late game (once they have maxed out population). Its just the faction dynamic, it doesnt make them weaker than other factions because they have better timing windows (very fast T2 and T3) and they can field more units.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 04 Apr, 2018 2:17 pm

Devon wrote:@Riku

300/100 is too low for a tac, most factions have req unit call in close to their regular req cost but not tacs ( ST are 200 req). I do fairly well in Retail with all factions but just not Tyranids in Elite.
First, you're missing my point which is sad. Tyranids are very powerful in Elite.
And second, what you are saying is just false. Look up warp spider, Kommandos, etc. Not only are they cheaper in req, they also don't cost you power.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Devon » Wed 04 Apr, 2018 2:26 pm

@Crew
Termas definitely deserves some love as far as cost comparing them to other ranges units, especially DA. It just doesn’t make sense.

@boss
Somehow ripper call in or zoan slow was op. They could have lower the damage of zoan shot to 100 and kept the slow. SM gets so many forms of AV slow and yet Tyranids shouldn’t have rippers. Putting them on warriors are a major nerf because it’s easier to connect with ripper call in or zoan shot. Warriors are so much more vulnerable and plus venom broods were already high list for being taken out first.

Big problem is that Tyranids have limited AV as TG is slow and even with synapses he can’t catch things. Only RA have dependable AV since HT gets kited and genes bleed badly with horrible infantry armor.

Current Tyranid meta encourages you to buy two zoanthropes but if their AV damage shot was toned down to 80 or 100 then reintroduce 60% slow (originally was 75%) and make zoan slow not stackable. Warrior slow range is bad and there’s so many ways of killing them. Any experienced player would know they are only slow in Elite at the time and target them first then their vehicle has free reign on the field.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Devon » Wed 04 Apr, 2018 3:00 pm

@Riku

Order from most to least love received for call ins going from Retail into Elite.

Tactical Squad call in
Retail: DOES NOT EXIST!
Elite: 300 req/ 100 red (requires tier 1)
Build from base: 450 req (33% reduction)

Stormtrooopers call in
Retail: 300 req / 150 red (requires tier 2)
Elite: 200 req/ 125 red (requires tier 2)
Build from base: 400 req (50% reduction)

Warp spiders call in
Retail: 350 req/ 200 red (requires tier 2)
Elite: 325 req/ 175 red (requires tier 2)
Build from base: 440 req/ 40 pwr (26.1% reduction)

Kommandos call in
Retail: 300 req/ 200 red (requires tier 2)
Elite: 300 req/ 200 red (requires tier 3)
Build from base: 400 req/ 50 pwr (25% reduction)

Tyranids Without Number call in
Retail: 50 req/ 100 red spawns a ripper (requires tier 2)
Elite: 300 req/ 200 red spawns 1 Horma + 1 Terma (requires tier 3)

The percentage reduction is how much cheaper from call in divided by build from base, the higher the reduction the better (cheaper). Clearly all other factions get their call in unit when reaching to the tier which they could build the unit. For some reason as Tyranids, I want to call in Horma/Terma in tier 3 because there's not other better place to spend my requisition. Horma/Termas are the best units in tier 3 because they counter everything. Kappa :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Crewfinity » Wed 04 Apr, 2018 3:53 pm

Devon wrote:@Riku

Order from most to least love received for call ins going from Retail into Elite.

Tactical Squad call in
Retail: DOES NOT EXIST!
Elite: 300 req/ 100 red (requires tier 1)
Build from base: 450 req (33% reduction)

Stormtrooopers call in
Retail: 300 req / 150 red (requires tier 2)
Elite: 200 req/ 125 red (requires tier 2)
Build from base: 400 req (50% reduction)

Warp spiders call in
Retail: 350 req/ 200 red (requires tier 2)
Elite: 325 req/ 175 red (requires tier 2)
Build from base: 440 req/ 40 pwr (26.1% reduction)

Kommandos call in
Retail: 300 req/ 200 red (requires tier 2)
Elite: 300 req/ 200 red (requires tier 3)
Build from base: 400 req/ 50 pwr (25% reduction)

Tyranids Without Number call in
Retail: 50 req/ 100 red spawns a ripper (requires tier 2)
Elite: 300 req/ 200 red spawns 1 Horma + 1 Terma (requires tier 3)

The percentage reduction is how much cheaper from call in divided by build from base, the higher the reduction the better (cheaper). Clearly all other factions get their call in unit when reaching to the tier which they could build the unit. For some reason as Tyranids, I want to call in Horma/Terma in tier 3 because there's not other better place to spend my requisition. Horma/Termas are the best units in tier 3 because they counter everything. Kappa :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



Not even sure what to say to this, because you dont seem to be making any coherent points...
Upgraded hormas and termas cost 650/30, so you end up getting a 53% reduction in req price. Thats higher than the 33% you get from tacs :P

You also get free AOE reinforcement, so if you use it well you can get a significantly bigger req advantage.

Its also rather pointless to simply compare call-in abilities, because they are all drastically different in timing/cost/context of use.

HT also has a warrior call-in in T2.
LA also has a spore mine call-in in T2.
RA also has a ravener call-in in T2.

Whats your point?
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby boss » Wed 04 Apr, 2018 4:01 pm

You can't compare callings so don't bother.

I tried to get old snare back for tyranids but torpid wouldn't have it cos they be so op kappa even tho he was fine for zoan to just kill tanks and shit when they got 2x the damage on fwb and cooldown buff so :lol:
Tyranids will have better av that much I say cos right now it shit to say the least.

Also my assessment not wrong crewfinty hell I posted a while ago about it, they don't have a big advantage early game just you don't pay upkeep till you get your t.5 units out then you pay more as the game goes on so also count in bleed which I didn't even add
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Devon » Wed 04 Apr, 2018 4:38 pm

@Crew

Why should warriors and ravs a tier 2 call in when you can build them in tier 1? Tac call ins are tier 1.

Why should warriors ravs pay full/almost full req for their call in when you can get stormtroopers for 200 req (build from base is 400)?

Of course you can compare call in in terms of how much cheaper you get the units for and WHEN you get them.

You're not getting much of benefit out of 300 req/200 red call in(without number for homa+terma) for price of 650 req when you can save and buy fex or lictor. Pay 350 req/ 100 red more you get TERMINATORS! Terma+Horma does not scale in tier 3, not by a mile. This simply does not make any sense whatsoever the way things are right now.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Forestradio » Wed 04 Apr, 2018 5:03 pm

these threads with funny little percentages and neat comparisons and omg one thing has a 33% value and another has 25% and it's so unfair! buff plz, nerf plz, look at my brilliant math it shows we should just equalize everything and balance will be fine right?

too bad this game doesn't function like that, if you want anything changed you'll have to show something other than random lists
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 04 Apr, 2018 5:52 pm

If you want symmetrical balance, play a symmetrically-balanced game.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Antandron » Wed 04 Apr, 2018 6:39 pm

Devon, for what its worth, comparisons to retail are not necessary. Just compare to "build from base" and go from there. Pretend for a moment that 1 red is worth about 2 req and 1 power is about 4 req.

Tactical Squad call in: 300 req/ 100 red (requires tier 1) = 500 + reinforce point + impact value + green cover
Build from base: 450 req

Stormtrooopers call in: 200 req/ 125 red (requires tier 2) = 450
Build from base: 400 req

Warp spiders call in: 325 req/ 175 red (requires tier 2) = 650
Build from base: 440 req/ 40 pwr = 600

Kommandos call in: 300 req/ 200 red (requires tier 3) = 700
Build from base: 400 req/ 50 pwr = 600

Tyranids Without Number call in: 300 req/ 200 red = 700 + mycetic spore explosion + free reinforcement
Build from base: 240 / 0 + 75 / 15 + 260 / 0 + 75 / 15 = 650 / 30 = 770

I would assume the idea was to have the red cost equivilent to req somehow. 2:1 red:req looks about right considering that the units are deployed immediately and are therefore slightly better than those built at base.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Devon » Wed 04 Apr, 2018 7:00 pm

@Forest

Making fun of someone doesn't win you the argument. Try to come back with something more sounding.

@Oddnerd,

COH2, a game is a perfect version of asymmetrical balanced game, whereas Allies have early infantry advantage and Germans have late game tank advantage. DOW2 is FAR from symmetrical balanced game. Nearly all suppressions do about similar dps but eldar is slightly faster, orks can cloak, havocs, Devastators have heavy armor and IG has more models but they all are similar cost and similar dps. Likewise Dreadnoughts have similar hp and slightly different role but all melee dedicated walkers have melee resistance and splash damage. Same thing can be said about lascannons, 50% slow, needs setup and similar range and arc. DOW2 is a game with units playing similar roles but with their own unique way of doing it. It is not asymmetrically balanced.

@Antandron

Requisition is still the main way you field more units onto the field so red/power doesn't necessary equal requisition. Again, why would I pay for horma + terma in tier 3 for 60% price of a terminator squad when terma/horma get rekted by almost every tier 2/tier 3 units? Terminators have opposite effect.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Antandron » Wed 04 Apr, 2018 7:44 pm

I doubt anyone knows what the right answer is for the question of how valuable req, red and power are. Maybe they all have different values in relation to one another at different times in the game, or for different factions, or whatever other reason. All of this makes any sort of sound argument about anything near impossible. So I guess at req:red:power in an attempt to make some sense of it all.

And to answer your question, maybe if all your hormagaunts and termagaunts get killed? It does appear to be a sh!t callin for T3.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Devon » Wed 04 Apr, 2018 7:48 pm

@Antar

What I mean is that requisition is a resources required to field units because without it, no matter how much power or red you have you can't build anything. That doesn't mean red and power is useless, just that requisition is main limitation of building units.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Torpid » Wed 04 Apr, 2018 8:19 pm

@devon

The stuff to do with asymmetrical balance vs symmetrical, coh2 etc is purely semantics. You mean the tanks in coh2 are entirely unique and don't have relative roles? No tank-killer tanks? No mainline battle tanks? No set-up teams, no flank-retreat killers? Etc, etc.

This is deeper than that. The whole nids strong in early game, more units, more speed, more flanking.

Orks do more damage and are more aggressive, with endless timing pushes but being unable to hold ground.

IG are the masters of holding ground and out-bleeding. But again can't be permanently static or they lose to set-up teams, blah blah blah.

On a different note though I do think there is truth in the analyses here with regards to without number being baaad. It is.
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Devon
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Devon » Wed 04 Apr, 2018 8:45 pm

@Torpid

Glad to see you play COH2 too :) Anyways, COH2 is a perfect asymmetrical game as in terms of infantry and tanks. Almost every single Allie infantry has more damage, cost more early advantage and German Tank Destroyers cost more but have more hp, armor and damage. :P
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Dark Riku
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 04 Apr, 2018 11:25 pm

Forest has a point. The races are designed differently.

I've won games with without number in it's current state fyi. Map presence is no joke.
But what do I know about this game.
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Blood Dragon
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Blood Dragon » Thu 05 Apr, 2018 1:52 am

@Devon

COH2, a game is a perfect version of asymmetrical balanced game, whereas Allies have early infantry advantage and Germans have late game tank advantage.


As coh 2 player i say no, not anymore allies td were buffed a lot, ally inf scales very well into late game, axis heavy tds were nerfed kt was nerfed pretty hard, and on top of that balance team revamped vets for okw inf. So coh 2 become balanced and axis doesn't have advantage in late game.
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Re: Tyranids units cost too high

Postby Devon » Thu 05 Apr, 2018 4:43 am

@Riku

Let me know when you want to play hide and seek next time. You hide I seek.

@Blood Dragon

The current balance is by modders not relic. The game itself has been asymmetrical balanced for majority of its life to model the real life tank development race during WW2 and thus it makes sense to do same thing with infantry. At the time, balance is one sided and if you look closely tournament (top 10 ranked) winning players struggle horribly against same level of skill (when playing specific faction), ie players like HelpingHans and Luvnest. Same thing happens in top 1v1/2v2 ranked games. I myself can reach rank 35 with one side and struggle to stay rank 200 on the other side. So COH2 is actually not balanced at all.

On topic, here are some of my suggestion to make Tyranids more cost effect.

1. Reduce cost of termagant to 240 and toxin sacs to 50/15.
2. Reduce Ravs from 400 req to 375.
3. Bring back retail rippers for Without Number as Tyranid AV slow.
4. Bring back zoan AV slow but nerf its AV damage to 100 and make zoan slow not stack if you get two of them.
5. Remove the new upgrade on warriors and keep AG/BS upgrades.

I personally do not think reducing some early unit cost would make Tyranids OP in any way shape of form and Tyranids need some sort of AV slow as they need it in T2. 4/6 Factions have many forms of slow/disable and Orks don't need it as much. If anyone else has any suggestions feel free to add in.

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