Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Schepp himself
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Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Schepp himself » Wed 07 Mar, 2018 2:34 pm

Hej Elite-crowd,
How comes that some leader updates (NOBs, Aspiring champion) always die last and some (Exarchs, Tac sarge) don't have this feat?
Is there a balance reason for it? Mixed Armor getting the engine confused? I'd appreciate an answer.

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Psycho
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Psycho » Wed 07 Mar, 2018 2:44 pm

TAC ASM AND OGRYN DIE LAST WHEN GOD DAMMIT
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Antandron
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Antandron » Wed 07 Mar, 2018 2:46 pm

Psycho wrote:TAC ASM AND OGRYN DIE LAST WHEN GOD DAMMIT


I agree, the RNG for SM is rigged. Upgrading to Sternguard is good insurance against this.
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Toilailee » Wed 07 Mar, 2018 2:48 pm

Scout sarge, shoota nob and heretic AC die last because bC wanted to balance detectors or something. Apart from IG leaders those are the only ones that do die last, unless something was changed in elite that I'm not aware of.
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Phoenix » Wed 07 Mar, 2018 3:08 pm

Mostly a Lictor Alpha/Kommando Nob issue. In the past with the t1 detectors not being die last models he would flash hook them out of the squad and kill them, leaving you without detection against a LA and 25 power down. Same with Knob and his Assassinate.

Now it is questionable whether the current situation with hooking die last models and killing the whole squad by attacking the leader model is a better overall solution but at least you have to bring up more damage to do so.
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Kvn » Wed 07 Mar, 2018 3:25 pm

Antandron wrote:I agree, the RNG for SM is rigged.


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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Forestradio » Wed 07 Mar, 2018 5:01 pm

it has been previously discussed that rebuying squad leaders could happen for a lower price after the first leader loss, anywhere from 50% to 75% of the original purchase price

but it is YOUR responsibility to look at how the models on your squad are taking damage and react accordingly, as well as your responsibility to know when to buy the leader/not buy it and spend those resources on something else

inb4 this thread devolves into a bunch of feces throwing between players who only play one race and try to convince everyone else that only their leaders die after all
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Atlas » Wed 07 Mar, 2018 9:28 pm

Forestradio wrote:...

inb4 this thread devolves into a bunch of feces throwing between players who only play one race and try to convince everyone else that only their leaders die after all

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Schepp himself
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Schepp himself » Thu 08 Mar, 2018 1:00 pm

So it is a balance issue. Thanks for the answer, I can see that sniping the leader in T1 or T1.5 would be a serious blow in this situation.

Personally I would prefer it to be same with all the leader upgrades. Slicker design.

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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Nurland » Sat 10 Mar, 2018 10:33 pm

I rather not see die last leaders for all squads. Repurchasing leaders could be cheaper though
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby LOCALgHOST » Sun 11 Mar, 2018 7:13 am

Solution for squad killin' with fleshhook on leader is model switching like for upgrade weapons. Is it possible technically?
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Torpid » Sun 11 Mar, 2018 9:49 am

LOCALgHOST wrote:Solution for squad killin' with fleshhook on leader is model switching like for upgrade weapons. Is it possible technically?


Nooo that's terrible. It's immersion breaking since a leader is a leader and doesn't just randomly switch like a gun - which anyone can use if picked up by an ally.

Also the whole thing of preserving your leader and watching his hp is an important part of DOW. Sniping enemy leaders- waiting to use your master crafted bolter shot on those shees/sluggas for just the right moment where you do get the leader kill is part of the skill of things.

And it also is complicated because leaders usually have more hp than standard models so just spawning them in upon the death of an old one wouldn't work since the squad would gain more hp, so it would be a more complicated implementation. Plus it would look pretty bad since the leader models look so different. Again, it's more noticable than a bolter turning into a plasma gun.

On a different note though I do think encouraging small re-balancing of all the none-die-last heroes so that they are still balanced in spite of being cheaper to buy back would be a good call. It's just a little more 'fun' as random leader wiping is unnecessarily punishing but it still gives some reward to players who hunt the leader wipe without causing more issues as we all know you can often exploit die-last models for easy wipes (such as pulling a GM sarge out of cover and into double termagant fire forcing off the whole squad whereas on another squad that would just be a lost leader). And the horrors of knocking die-last leaders into melee...
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Schepp himself » Sun 11 Mar, 2018 4:31 pm

Torpid wrote:On a different note though I do think encouraging small re-balancing of all the none-die-last heroes so that they are still balanced in spite of being cheaper to buy back would be a good call. It's just a little more 'fun' as random leader wiping is unnecessarily punishing but it still gives some reward to players who hunt the leader wipe without causing more issues as we all know you can often exploit die-last models for easy wipes (such as pulling a GM sarge out of cover and into double termagant fire forcing off the whole squad whereas on another squad that would just be a lost leader). And the horrors of knocking die-last leaders into melee...


Just to specify: The damage of the leader gets transferred to the squad because the leader can't die but get's damaged? Never happened at my skilllevel that's why I'm asking.

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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Torpid » Sun 11 Mar, 2018 7:29 pm

Schepp himself wrote:Just to specify: The damage of the leader gets transferred to the squad because the leader can't die but get's damaged? Never happened at my skilllevel that's why I'm asking.

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Yep. That's exactly what happens.
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Psycho » Sun 11 Mar, 2018 7:58 pm

I take it the mechanism the LG has for repurchasable serg/commi/vox has some manner of coding shenanigans that can't be applied to normal squad leaders? Seems too logical a course for it to not have been aplied to squad leaders already.
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Oddnerd » Mon 12 Mar, 2018 2:38 pm

It might be an issue with GM squad leaders due to the extra models they add. Would be nice for other squads, especially banshees and ogryns.
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Mon 12 Mar, 2018 3:27 pm

@Torpid: How exactly do you watch your leaders health?
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Psycho » Mon 12 Mar, 2018 4:24 pm

Torpid confirmed using hacks
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Torpid » Mon 12 Mar, 2018 10:24 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:@Torpid: How exactly do you watch your leaders health?


Well by looking at how fast the squad hp is going down whilst also seeing the ranging animations hitting the leader model as opposed to any other model.

Psycho wrote:I take it the mechanism the LG has for repurchasable serg/commi/vox has some manner of coding shenanigans that can't be applied to normal squad leaders? Seems too logical a course for it to not have been aplied to squad leaders already.


Not really. Could have been implemented to lots of other laeders but it's a massive change both in terms of balance and design. I don't think it's a logical extension to do it with the LG and do it for all leaders. The LG is unique in that he's the only hero that bleeds. That's quite a unique incentive to give him a unique trait.

Oddnerd wrote:It might be an issue with GM squad leaders due to the extra models they add. Would be nice for other squads, especially banshees and ogryns.


I definitely don't think adding it to GM would be wise. They need to be tanky and letting sarges die would be really bad for their bleed and as you say with the +2 max model count it also create problems there...
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Psycho » Tue 13 Mar, 2018 1:35 am

What about the sternguard sergeant? It's a unique model able to die like any other, though the game recognizes it as reinforces it as if it was another normal model. Is there any chance that the coding shenanigans part of it can recognize a purchased model like that, so that in practice a tac sergeant can die but is automatically reinforced in base for the base price of a tac model? Not talking about it being implemented as such, but rather if it's possible at all.
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Nurland » Tue 13 Mar, 2018 3:17 pm

I would imagine it being possible to do if it was deemed a great idea.
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby LOCALgHOST » Wed 14 Mar, 2018 3:55 pm

Reinforce leader on non-dielast (tac, for example) leaders is shit.
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Antandron » Wed 14 Mar, 2018 4:33 pm

Removal of die-last mechanic where possible and 1/2 cost for replacement of leaders KIA would be a good solution imo. Of course would need a few cost adjustments to units affected and wargear that allowed sniping of squad leaders would become more powerful.
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby LOCALgHOST » Fri 16 Mar, 2018 4:51 pm

maybe just retarget ability to other nearest model? it would solve squad wipes by fleshhook instantly.
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby Torpid » Fri 16 Mar, 2018 8:49 pm

LOCALgHOST wrote:maybe just retarget ability to other nearest model? it would solve squad wipes by fleshhook instantly.


No way, that's the whole point of the flesh hook. Monitoring which models are getting hurt the most and sniping them with it, especialyl good vs stuff like tacs. And being able to direct target important models like barbed stranglers/heavy weapons/av weapons... Plus LA needs no more nerfs.
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Re: Why is it that some leader updates always die last?

Postby LOCALgHOST » Sat 17 Mar, 2018 3:40 am

Torpid wrote:
LOCALgHOST wrote:maybe just retarget ability to other nearest model? it would solve squad wipes by fleshhook instantly.


No way, that's the whole point of the flesh hook. Monitoring which models are getting hurt the most and sniping them with it, especialyl good vs stuff like tacs. And being able to direct target important models like barbed stranglers/heavy weapons/av weapons... Plus LA needs no more nerfs.


I totally agree with you in all facts. I'm just telling other thing. The die-last model is never "getting hurt the most" and you can't just snipe it and kill it, you just wipe whole squad of tics/gm/scouts. So if hook gets simple model - ok. if champion/sergeant/commissar - switch. That's my point. Nothing more. And if everyone continue to think that squad wiping is ok - let's switch the topic.

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