Plague marine bolter damage

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Yabbaman
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Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Yabbaman » Thu 08 Mar, 2018 4:13 pm

Hi,

Is there any reason why bolters on plague marines do so little damage? I suggest this could be buffed, since the unit is very underused and is generally a poor choice in T2. It's underperforming both against vehicles and especially against infantry. It's totally incomparable to tac squad upgrade in overall utility and costs 40 fuel. I'd like to hear some higher skill level opinion on the matter too.

Thanks
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Kvn » Thu 08 Mar, 2018 5:22 pm

Yabbaman wrote:Hi,

Is there any reason why bolters on plague marines do so little damage? I suggest this could be buffed, since the unit is very underused and is generally a poor choice in T2. It's underperforming both against vehicles and especially against infantry. It's totally incomparable to tac squad upgrade in overall utility and costs 40 fuel. I'd like to hear some higher skill level opinion on the matter too.

Thanks


Plague Marine bolters deal little upfront damage because they have a lot of damage over time (which stacks, making it very dangerous as it does full damage on retreat). In addition to that, they have soft anti vehicle damage in the form of their rocket, which also snares targets, and a melee deterrent in the form of their death explosions. Buffing their damage would make them too lethal. Anti-all units in general are rare enough, and having all those assets working together on a unit which costs 40 power is over the top.

Not sure why you would think they're underused, as Plague Marine spam was/is a pretty common thing, usually in the lower level games where mobility and map control is less focused on than the actual battles. I'm not as up to date on Chaos strats as I used to be, but I know they used to feature quite regularly.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Yabbaman » Thu 08 Mar, 2018 5:38 pm

Kvn wrote:
Yabbaman wrote:Hi,

Is there any reason why bolters on plague marines do so little damage? I suggest this could be buffed, since the unit is very underused and is generally a poor choice in T2. It's underperforming both against vehicles and especially against infantry. It's totally incomparable to tac squad upgrade in overall utility and costs 40 fuel. I'd like to hear some higher skill level opinion on the matter too.

Thanks


Plague Marine bolters deal little upfront damage because they have a lot of damage over time (which stacks, making it very dangerous as it does full damage on retreat). In addition to that, they have soft anti vehicle damage in the form of their rocket, which also snares targets, and a melee deterrent in the form of their death explosions. Buffing their damage would make them too lethal. Anti-all units in general are rare enough, and having all those assets working together on a unit which costs 40 power is over the top.

Not sure why you would think they're underused, as Plague Marine spam was/is a pretty common thing, usually in the lower level games where mobility and map control is less focused on than the actual battles. I'm not as up to date on Chaos strats as I used to be, but I know they used to feature quite regularly.


I didn't know about the stacking damage thing. As for the spam, I've seen that a few times and it doesn't win games, so don't know why bring this up as counterargument.
Last edited by Yabbaman on Thu 08 Mar, 2018 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Kvn » Thu 08 Mar, 2018 5:59 pm

Yabbaman wrote:I didn't know about the stacking damage thing. As for the spam, I've seen that a few times and it doesn't win games, so don't know why bring this up as counterargument.


For starters, because you said they were underused. A unit cannot be spammed on a semi-regular basis and still be underused. As for winning games, they can and do, usually in the lower to lower-mid tier games where people have a harder time dealing with them.

On their own, Plague Marines are not meant to be a high-end killing unit. They're a generalist pick that can supplement other units and can deal damage against all targets. It would be very OP to have them deal as much damage as an anti-infantry specialist as well as having their other perks on top.

In addition, 40 power is not a steep price tag for a T2 unit, especially given that most other T2 units have power-heavy upgrades in addition to their initial purchase price.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Forestradio » Thu 08 Mar, 2018 6:48 pm

pms are already too strong in the meta, what is this thread?

they never bleed unless engaged for 20+ seconds by a hero with a big scary melee weapon, they have stupid high health regen that means unlike other squads with low models they are always on full hp
and they have infantry armor so you can't even kill them with plasma which usually has much higher dps than piercing
AND they apply a slow aura permanently to nearby enemies which is very useful for screening against dangerous melee or stopping your other units for being tied up
the fact they can even hurt infantry is a bonus... they apply a permanent snare to enemy vehicles and don't lose av dps even if they do lose models

pms+autcannon is already a deadly combo to transports walkers and tanks while still retaining a ton of AI dps

pms need 0 buff, if anything they should go back to 4 models from 3, and they have always been a big part of how chaos t2 can fight against enemy t3
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Yabbaman » Thu 08 Mar, 2018 6:57 pm

Kvn wrote:
Yabbaman wrote:I didn't know about the stacking damage thing. As for the spam, I've seen that a few times and it doesn't win games, so don't know why bring this up as counterargument.


For starters, because you said they were underused. A unit cannot be spammed on a semi-regular basis and still be underused. As for winning games, they can and do, usually in the lower to lower-mid tier games where people have a harder time dealing with them.

On their own, Plague Marines are not meant to be a high-end killing unit. They're a generalist pick that can supplement other units and can deal damage against all targets. It would be very OP to have them deal as much damage as an anti-infantry specialist as well as having their other perks on top.

In addition, 40 power is not a steep price tag for a T2 unit, especially given that most other T2 units have power-heavy upgrades in addition to their initial purchase price.


It isn't being spammed on semi-regular basis. I've seen it spammed only twice-thrice-at-most in my 146 hours on this game and both times it failed miserably. Also, we hardly ever get truly low-level games on this mod. I am low-level and I wouldn't do it or be pressured by such a strat.

My point is that for a "generalist pick" their 7dps bolter damage in T2 is practically useless. But, like I said, I didn't know about the stacking damage thing and the huge difference it makes, so maybe I'm totally wrong here. I also failed see how giving their 2 models regular csm bolters would turn them into anti-everything steamrollers.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Yabbaman » Thu 08 Mar, 2018 6:59 pm

Forestradio wrote:pms are already too strong in the meta, what is this thread?

they never bleed unless engaged for 20+ seconds by a hero with a big scary melee weapon, they have stupid high health regen that means unlike other squads with low models they are always on full hp
and they have infantry armor so you can't even kill them with plasma which usually has much higher dps than piercing
AND they apply a slow aura permanently to nearby enemies which is very useful for screening against dangerous melee or stopping your other units for being tied up
the fact they can even hurt infantry is a bonus... they apply a permanent snare to enemy vehicles and don't lose av dps even if they do lose models

pms+autcannon is already a deadly combo to transports walkers and tanks while still retaining a ton of AI dps

pms need 0 buff, if anything they should go back to 4 models from 3, and they have always been a big part of how chaos t2 can fight against enemy t3


Didn't know this. Thanks for the input.

Actually, I don't know what meta you referring to, but suit yourself. The thread is just a thread, the forums aren't too busy.
Last edited by Yabbaman on Thu 08 Mar, 2018 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Kvn » Thu 08 Mar, 2018 7:24 pm

Yabbaman wrote:It isn't being spammed on semi-regular basis. I've seen it spammed only twice-thrice-at-most in my 146 hours on this game and both times it failed miserably.


And in my 1000+ hours of gameplay experience, I've seen it numerous times with varying levels of success. In lower skill matches or team matches where mobility isn't as heavily focused on, I've seen it do quite a lot of work. There's a reason that multiple threads have opened up in the past asking for nerfs to Plague Marines.

Yabbaman wrote:Also, we hardly ever get truly low-level games on this mod.


I'm afraid that's not true. There aren't a lot, but it's about knowing where to look, and communicating in the general chat. There are a decent number of low-level players out there. They're just not as immediately visible.

Yabbaman wrote:I am low-level and I wouldn't do it or be pressured by such a strat.


As someone who had to deal with it quite often during their early days, you are underestimating how difficult it can be when you're not prepared. Even when you are, You'd be surprised at how effective several squads of PM can be, especially in team games when you've got other support.

Yabbaman wrote:My point is that for a "generalist pick" their 7dps bolter damage in T2 is practically useless. But, like I said, I didn't know about the stacking damage thing and the huge difference it makes, so maybe I'm totally wrong here. I also failed see how giving their 2 models regular csm bolters would turn them into anti-everything steamrollers.


The stacking dps is massive. One of the biggest killers in 1v1 is losing squads, and that damage over time is excellent at wiping units on retreat. In addition to that, it takes people off guard because of how slow it appears to start out. As for the other things, if you can't see the danger of giving them the same dps as a CSM squad on top of all their other perks for the relatively low price of 40 power (CSM are also 40 power when upgraded before getting Marks, I'd like to add), you might want to take a minute to rethink that.

Long story short, they're not supposed to be a high-impact game ending unit. They're a slow-grind attrition based generalist troop that can deal damage against most anything.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Yabbaman » Thu 08 Mar, 2018 8:28 pm

Kvn wrote:
Yabbaman wrote:
Yabbaman wrote:I am low-level and I wouldn't do it or be pressured by such a strat.


As someone who had to deal with it quite often during their early days, you are underestimating how difficult it can be when you're not prepared. Even when you are, You'd be surprised at how effective several squads of PM can be, especially in team games when you've got other support.


You sure you aren't referring to retail version of the game here?

Kvn wrote:
Yabbaman wrote:My point is that for a "generalist pick" their 7dps bolter damage in T2 is practically useless. But, like I said, I didn't know about the stacking damage thing and the huge difference it makes, so maybe I'm totally wrong here. I also failed see how giving their 2 models regular csm bolters would turn them into anti-everything steamrollers.


The stacking dps is massive. One of the biggest killers in 1v1 is losing squads, and that damage over time is excellent at wiping units on retreat. In addition to that, it takes people off guard because of how slow it appears to start out. As for the other things, if you can't see the danger of giving them the same dps as a CSM squad on top of all their other perks for the relatively low price of 40 power (CSM are also 40 power when upgraded before getting Marks, I'd like to add), you might want to take a minute to rethink that.

Long story short, they're not supposed to be a high-impact game ending unit. They're a slow-grind attrition based generalist troop that can deal damage against most anything.


The codex doesn't mention their stacking damage for some reason.

Long story short the way I see it, is that they get spammed when noobs lose all their army late game and struggle to deal with some vehicles. Obviously plague marines suck against everything and aren't too great against falcons/chimeras either and so they aren't a high-impact mid-game unit either unlike tacs who can be respecialized many times over. But like I said I am a low level player and the devs know what's right.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Nurland » Thu 08 Mar, 2018 8:39 pm

Plague Marines are a very potent squad. They are a meat shield unit that provides great utility for killing vehicles or at least deterring them. They do plenty for their price tag.

They used to have better anti infantry dps but then people started spamming them and they just shat on basically everything. Extremely hard to counter and the spammer could basically play with one hand.

This coming from a player who mained chaos for a very long time.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Kvn » Thu 08 Mar, 2018 8:41 pm

Yabbaman wrote:
You sure you aren't referring to retail version of the game here?


I'm referring to both. It was much more prevelant in retail, but it still happens here plenty.

Yabbaman wrote:The codex doesn't mention their stacking damage for some reason.


The codex, unfortunately, doesn't have 100% of the in-game statistics in there. Even so, Plague Marine DoT has been in the game since the beginning, and is quite visible thanks to the green mist it leaves on targets who've been hit by it.

Yabbaman wrote:Long story short the way I see it, is that they get spammed when noobs lose all their army late game and struggle to deal with some vehicles.


No. They're not. You don't seem to be getting the fact that they're a supplemental unit. They don't replace anything. They support your army with anti-all utility.

Yabbaman wrote:Obviously plague marines suck against everything and aren't too great against falcons/chimeras either and so they aren't a high-impact mid-game unit either unlike tacs who can be respecialized many times over. But like I said I am a low level player and the devs know what's right.


No... they don't. They don't "suck" versus transports. They are VERY dangerous to transports thanks to their snare, because you will almost certainly have another av source to do the heavy damage. Namely the Autocannon. Tacs are not a high impact unit, and you seem to be forgetting that when re-equipping them, you need to pay a considerable fee for each weapon change. Tacs pay 40 power for a missile launcher that is objectively inferior to the one that Plague Marines get. If you want to switch out to plasma after getting it, you need to pay another 30 power out of pocket. If you then decide you want the rocket back, you need to pay 40 power yet again. They can't just switch out on the fly the way Sternguard can.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Yabbaman » Thu 08 Mar, 2018 9:41 pm

Ok. I am persuaded.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Schepp himself » Thu 08 Mar, 2018 10:02 pm

Yabbaman wrote:Ok. I am persuaded.


Seriously didn't see that coming. One post before this one I thought: "It seems like this Yabbaman creates a thread with a question and then continous to argue his point without taking into account all the good arguments presented."

Thanks Yabbaman, you get one cookie and one internet for being a good one.

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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Oddnerd » Thu 08 Mar, 2018 11:04 pm

Yabbaman wrote:Hi,

Is there any reason why bolters on plague marines do so little damage? I suggest this could be buffed, since the unit is very underused and is generally a poor choice in T2. It's underperforming both against vehicles and especially against infantry. It's totally incomparable to tac squad upgrade in overall utility and costs 40 fuel. I'd like to hear some higher skill level opinion on the matter too.

Thanks


They are actually an insanely powerful unit and are frequently the butt of jokes for being so. Lets look at what you are getting for that price:

-They have an AV attack with a snare and no setup time.

-They have a damage-over-time weapon effect just like the hellfire rounds on Sternguards, which combines with their base DPS to give reasonable anti-infantry damage and great unit wiping potential, since the DOT is not affected by retreat. This lessens the trade-off most people make when purchasing hard AV because most other hard AV units are poor or outright useless against infantry.

-They have a massive pool of HP, infantry armour, and probably the highest base regen of any unit in the game - meaning that no kind of weapon is particularly effective against them - piercing/plasma/inferno/melta weapons all take a long time to whittle them down.

-They explode on death and heal allies - this is where light infantry armour races really struggle. If they didn't have this ability, then a dedicated melee unit could tie them up in melee and cut through them reasonably quickly; however, with this explosion, they damage and knockback enemies around them, and heal the remaining models plus nearby allies. A slugga/shee/hormagaunt squad trying to kill them in melee is going have a rough time because if they are taking damage from this explosion and supporting fire from other chaos units, they will not last long.

-They slow enemy units around them, further shitting on melee units.

-They continue to fire normally even under suppression (I'm assuming the codex is still up-to-date here)


At most levels of play they are very strong. People who spam them end up becoming known to the community and the butt of jokes, which is why they are sometimes called Mark of Aminion Marines.

Also, welcome to Elite, please don't let shitty comments deter you from posting questions, every thread of this kind has a background level of them. All it takes is a few insightful responses and you can learn a lot about them game that you didn't know before (the game has many subtle or hidden mechanics that you will only learn about from people who are experts - such as the plague marine DOT), and appreciate the thought process of the people balancing it.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Psycho » Fri 09 Mar, 2018 12:34 am

Oddnerd wrote:however, with this explosion, they damage and knockback enemies around them, and heal the remaining models plus nearby allies.


This part in particular only applies to Chosen Plague Marines. Normal plague marines don't heal the other models of their own squad, as far as I'm aware.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Oddnerd » Fri 09 Mar, 2018 1:08 am

The codex says they do, but who knows how out-of-date that info is.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Fri 09 Mar, 2018 7:14 am

They don't self-heal any longer.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Yabbaman » Fri 09 Mar, 2018 8:46 am

Schepp himself wrote:
Yabbaman wrote:Ok. I am persuaded.


Seriously didn't see that coming. One post before this one I thought: "It seems like this Yabbaman creates a thread with a question and then continous to argue his point without taking into account all the good arguments presented."

Thanks Yabbaman, you get one cookie and one internet for being a good one.

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My question was more of a rhetorical one and I could have kept arguing my point if there was much point to it. No thanks to you and you know where to shove that cookie.

Feel free to delete shit posted in the second and third responses too.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Schepp himself » Fri 09 Mar, 2018 10:02 am

Yabbaman wrote:
Schepp himself wrote:
Yabbaman wrote:Ok. I am persuaded.


Seriously didn't see that coming. One post before this one I thought: "It seems like this Yabbaman creates a thread with a question and then continous to argue his point without taking into account all the good arguments presented."

Thanks Yabbaman, you get one cookie and one internet for being a good one.

Greets
Schepp himself


My question was more of a rhetorical one and I could have kept arguing my point if there was much point to it. No thanks to you and you know where to shove that cookie.

Feel free to delete shit posted in the second and third responses too.


Ah, so you are a regular internet person impervious to honest and kind words. I prefer to eat that cookie myself then, you clearly have no clue how to use it (pro tip: it goes into your mouth. nomnomnom.)

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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Yabbaman » Fri 09 Mar, 2018 1:00 pm

As for the balance matters, I just tried plague marine spam against ai, and so I do think that the damage sponge and AT arguments hold true, but the stacking damage thing appears nonexistent or its effects is negligible and it takes ages even killing scouts. Health regen is present.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Oddnerd » Fri 09 Mar, 2018 1:33 pm

What is your definition of a bullet sponge then? The only other non-vehicle unit that is comparable to them is Chosen Plague marines, their melee counterpart. Can you name a unit that actually is a bullet sponge by your definition?
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Crewfinity » Fri 09 Mar, 2018 3:35 pm

From this thread (which includes lots of other stats not found on the Codex):
https://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewto ... f=2&t=1261


Plague Marine Bolter:
Radius: 0 - 0
Angle: 0 > 0
Effect: DoT
Knockback: None
Damage: 1.35
Damage Type: piercing_pvp
Duration: 5 seconds
Targets: Enemy

So in total, PM bolters will deal 12 damage on hit and 6.75 damage over time, so they end up dealing 18.75 damage with each hit.

For comparison, Sternguard hellfire bolters will deal 22 damage on hit and 6 damage over time.

PM's are great and need no buffs.
Last edited by Crewfinity on Fri 09 Mar, 2018 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Fri 09 Mar, 2018 3:44 pm

Nothing like math and numbers. Well put, Crew. Plague Marines were nerfed several times now because their anti-all capabilities were/are deemed too strong for the longest time.

You also have to look at them in the context of the Chaos army roster. Like Forest said, many times there is nothing you can do about Khorne worshipped Bloodcrusher + Plague Marines combo. They are basically infantry armor, high hp, low model count, not setup time having, snaring Las-Tacs. Those two units often end the game early T2 because of how Chaos eco works and how strong they are.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Yabbaman » Fri 09 Mar, 2018 6:02 pm

Oddnerd wrote:What is your definition of a bullet sponge then? The only other non-vehicle unit that is comparable to them is Chosen Plague marines, their melee counterpart. Can you name a unit that actually is a bullet sponge by your definition?


I wasn't arguing with that post really, just underlining my latest impressions with your commentary. Bullet sponge in this game is something that will absorb damage without affecting your economy in reinforcement costs. So yes - Plague marines are a bullet sponge, chosen plague marines - are awesome imho, when the right conditions for their deployment are met, works every time, they are a bullet sponge too. Nobz are a bullet sponge as well I guess.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Nurland » Fri 09 Mar, 2018 7:33 pm

Ehh... This has to be one of the weirder reactions to a compliment I have seen... If someone offers you an "e-cookie" and a thumbs up in a non-sarcastic way. You might not want to tell that person to fuck off.

Anyhow. Is the anti-infantry permomance of the plague marines your main gripe Yabbaman? As they are not supposed to be a high or even medium dps against infantry.

Also you shouldn't really try stuff against AI to gauge balance.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Yabbaman » Fri 09 Mar, 2018 8:26 pm

Nurland wrote:Ehh... This has to be one of the weirder reactions to a compliment I have seen... If someone offers you an "e-cookie" and a thumbs up in a non-sarcastic way. You might not want to tell that person to fuck off.


That's not what happened.

Nurland wrote:Anyhow. Is the anti-infantry permomance of the plague marines your main gripe Yabbaman? As they are not supposed to be a high or even medium dps against infantry.

Also you shouldn't really try stuff against AI to gauge balance.


I don't have any gripes. Just played a game the other day, plague marines felt quite ineffective, checked the codex, saw the damage, figured I'd create a thread ask some questions. That's all.

Also, you can try stuff against ai, since if a particular strat sucks even against ai, it's certain to suck against anyone with at least 100 hours of pvp experience.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Yabbaman » Fri 09 Mar, 2018 8:58 pm

lol, some community you have here..
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Oddnerd » Fri 09 Mar, 2018 9:28 pm

He's mocking the dumb comments that are typical of these kinds of threads.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Atlas » Sat 10 Mar, 2018 12:12 am

Right, you are all stupid now. Commencing Exterminatus.
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Re: Plague marine bolter damage

Postby Nurland » Sat 10 Mar, 2018 10:32 pm

The armor type makes them not take extra damage from a lot of the anti chaos damage types that are beought out in t2. Like pladma_cannon, plasma, inferno and psychic.

That coupled with large hp pool, high hp regen and low model count make them excellent for soaking up some of the damage that would destroy your expensive T1 units like CSM, Havocs and Raptors.
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