Understanding IG vs Eldar match up

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Impregnable
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Understanding IG vs Eldar match up

Postby Impregnable » Sat 21 May, 2016 10:52 pm

This is the follow up post from IG VS SM match up. My friend wishes to know how much meta has moved on in Elite compared to retribution.

IG vs Eldar
IG is considered to have an upper hand against Eldar in 1 v 1 but since all its advantage comes from sentinel, IG player should preserve it no matter the cost. Inq and LG are recommended but not LC. This is because LC specializes in large scale combats and it doesn't occur so often in vs Eldar match up. Also he goes down way to fast under enemy fire. In comparison, LG's ability to break suppression on demand and to buff firepower and health of IG units in various ways is really effective vs Eldar. In case of Inq, she is very good at countering Eldar guerrilla warfare. So don't go for LC.

Tier 1
Sentinels are quite resistant to fire from Dire Avengers and shurikens thanks to their heavy infantry armor. Also, they are fast unlike SM units so they are in no danger of getting chased down by banshees with their power melee. This is probably the only time having heavy infantry armor actually benefits a unit properly. All Eldar player has to counter sentinels in T1 are Rangers and Plasma nades. This means Sentinels are a hard counter to DAs. Ork shootas are very dangerous to sentinels if they are equipped with big shootas but its not the case for Eldar DAs. Dire Avengers are a unit that relies on shield and plasma nade. Sentinel can dodge nades and crush shields or even flank easily so it will bleed DAs crazily.

Las turrets GM field also can give IG an advantage early on. Although its health is quite low compared to SM or Chaos turrets, dps wise its on par with them. Eldar does not have anything that can take buildings down reliably in T1 except Warlock's flame sword. Thus, if you put one around a VP, you can keep it for free until about mid T2. Eldar can try to take turret down with WSE mass teleport and banshees but it is too cost inefficient method so its in your favor even if they do so. Moreover, if you are confident that you can bait Warlock to keep using that flaming ground skill on other units like GM instead of the turret, you can use turret even against Warlock.

As I have mentioned earlier, all that IG player has to watch out for in T1 vs Eldar is shuriken, ranger and Warlock. WSE is nothing more than a fast capper and not much else in this match up. It can try to bleed GM but if he doesn't manage to wipe out a squad, its not worth it either. In case of Farseer, she doesn't have anything to do until Wraithguard comes out. She will put guide on Shuriken and will tank some damage but that is about it. Rest of the things would be easy since all an IG player has to care about at this point is managing sentinels well so they don't go down to Ranger fire. You need to know that Eldar player produced Ranger just to keep sentinel from running amok and its your fault if Sent gets killed from it since Ranger's fire rate is quite slow although it has good damage. As long as you start running away after first or second shot, it will survive. You must remember that getting 3 or 4 shots from rangers is entirely your fault.

Sometimes Eldar will try to melee GM with DA in the very first engagement. Surprisingly enough, DA with no upgrade has three times the dps of GM with no upgrade and will win that engagement. Since there is no actual danger of getting wiped, Eldar player will willingly send DA in for melee. So in this case, bring Sent or hero for assistance, using GM rashly before having squad leader upgrade is not in your favor. When Eldar player attempts to stop your hero or GM using shuriken, flank with sent or blow it away with ol'reliable. Also, purchasing a shrui means there is no ranger so exploit that fact by using sent more aggressively around the map. However, don't try to force your way through 2 shuri or 1 shur + 1 ranger because its not in your favor. Having set up teams is always a minus in terms of mobility anyways so don't fight it. Remember that IG has the initiative in T1. If you are so desperate to deal with 2 shuri, try to force your opponent to spread them out. You always can manage to somehow force off 1 shuri using things like sentinel, cata or Hammer of the witch from your Inq. In case of LG, he can just use anti suppression buff and shoot the crap out of shuri in the front while blowing away the one in behind with Cata.

It will be a great T1 as long as you harass the crap out of DA and bash some gens with flamer GM. This may doesn't sound like much but even though its quite hard to wipe squads, that harassment from Sent really bleeds DA like crazy in T1. DA cost as much as 2 GM without a Sgt upgrade so keep on bleeding them. Recommended build would be 1 sent, 3 GM, 1 cata. Cata is the king of small engagements and will win most of such fights so its good vs Eldar. Eldar can't win against Cata without upgraded Banshees but the very fact that you forced a Banshee out from Eldar gives you massive advantage in terms of economy lead because Banshee is always cost inefficient VS IG unless it is meleeing Ogryn or ST. The thing that really matters is destructor, immolate combo from Warlock. Just make sure to keep Warlock in check with your hero and sent for he will do massive damage to your GM if you don't do so. All in all, do not use your GM too carelessly before they get squad leaders.

Tier 2
Once both players reach T2, the fight becomes quite even. DAs start to have their squad leaders which allows them to stand their ground vs Sents and that dreaded WG comes out in the field. WG just absolutely destroy GM which are slow and Falcon is very efficient. However, WL is a very bad choice for Eldar. WL is not that cost efficient vs IG and the match will be lost if Eldar player somehow misplays and lose his WL to IG AV. Despite that, WL can be very dangerous if combined with autarch who can disrupt your las cannon HWT. In that case, you need to face them as if you are facing Assault Termy. They are not that efficient in killing GM quickly so just run around and round and delay them until you have other AV out. The more proper usage of WL would be to guard WG against Ogryns. Since Ogryns cost a lot too, Eldar player can also safely invest in WL. It is very difficult to face both WL and WG running around together so try to separate them by doing guerrilla warfare or go T3 or keep on poking at WL with las cannon HWT. If you are gonna stay in T2 and spend more resource as Inq, just do Crossbow or excruciator into manti combo and it will send it off instantly. LC can put inspire terror on WG warlock to stun it and make it less effective at killing GM.

T2 is all about how IG picks off enemy units and commanders who are trying to guard WG and how you exploit that slow mobility of WG to keep up in capping war while preserving chimera and Manti. WG is way too strong in terms of firepower and health to be tackled in ranged fights so chimera is a must to keep your GM alive and stay active on the field. Even though GM are really cheap to reinforce, you will lose the map control totally if your GM has to run back and forth from the base so frequently. In case of LG, he can fight head on with WG cost efficiently with various buffs as long as he has chimera so keep it alive. Manticore can be used to put some pressure on slow WG but it must not be hunted down. Things like powerblade WSE, webway gate ambushes can hunt down mantis pretty quickly so use catas to plant IED everywhere around the map and get some vision. This way you can see them coming beforehand and move manti to safe place. Heroes should mark Warlock as much as they can. T2 Warlock spells are powerful and he can go full jedi build as well. Therefore keep him in check. To sum it up, do not get your GM wiped, preserve your vehicles and focus on forcing off other guys beside WG in engagements.

If you have chosen Inq, you can make Eldar suffer like hell. She can infiltrate Ogryns to sneak up on Falcons and WG and Eldar can't do anything about it cost efficiently but don't do this and purchase Banewolf if Eldar possess banshees. Ogryn will win in 1 v 1 vs Banshees but most likely Eldar player will bring up hero as well. ST can hunt Falcon with melta or get Assault Kit to do infiltrate and harass cappers. Inq can summon ST cheaply anywhere around the map with some vision and their guerrilla warfare is really annoying for Eldar to deal with since Eldar has given up on mobility by purchasing set up team and WG. Sent + AT ST guarding a side line VP far away from main line of defense is very hard to force off and they can even do some guerrilla warfare to make matters worse for set up team oriented Eldar. And that damned Banewolf is so much effective vs Eldar if it is well managed. Eldar infantry just melts before it and that slowing down ability makes chasing by AV units so difficult. Eldar doesn't have any reliable snare beside Warp Spiders' haywire grenade so well managed Banewolf will do massive damage to Eldar.

There is also a possibility that Eldar will field Warp Spiders. This means your opponent is trying to use distort field or fortune on WS to throw haywire nade safely but there it no reason to worry about it. It is way too costly investment compared to what it gives Eldar as it only fills up pop cap while not being that useful of a combat unit which weakens Eldar army as a whole. Moreover, even though WS has scary dps, it will bleed so much when they try to tackle GM squad supported by Chimera. GM vs WS is always in favor of IG economy wise. In case of autarch running amok among your GM, you need to exploit the fact that now your opponent has to field only 1 WG instead of 2 which matters a lot in terms of firepower you have to counter. Also, autarch can't win against Cata despite its high cost. Just get into Chimera and autarch will have to leave.

Tier 3
There is not much to be wary of in T3 except D cannons and commander wargears from Eldar. However, you will be in trouble if Eldar gets Seer Council as Farseer when you were relying heavily in Ogryns. Seer Council reaps through Ogryn and GM alike and is not so slow like Assault Termy either and also quite tanky. Expert usage of chimera is needed in this case. Good thing is Inq can cc the crap out of Seer council and LC can buff Cata and fight alongside with them to force off Seer Council. Moreover, Eldar will just get second WG anyways so it doesn't really matter. Well, it is easier said than done. WG is such a powerful unit that it can effectively punish your misplays and cost you a game anytime during the match. IG is strong vs Eldar but it is like that under the condition that you are able to multi task your key units such as Sentinel, Cata, ST along side main army consisted of chimera and GM. But if you can do that properly, you will definitely have an advantage over Eldar.
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Re: Understanding IG vs Eldar match up

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Sun 22 May, 2016 9:21 am

This matchup is very much Eldar favored at the moment. 3 Dire Avengers and the Warlock are such a pain for IG that even the best IG players will testify that the matchup is broken. Dire Avenger Exarch can be purchased in T1, changing the dynamic drastically in favor of Eldar. With the Immolator keeping GM from repairing and 3 DA focus fire on the Sentinel, it can go down in the blink of an eye. There is no need for Rangers to kill a Sentinel. Catachans' IEDs are now useless because the Exarch has keen sight from T1 onwards, making them absolutely useless vs capping squads, unless its Banshees.

Every Eldar hero has a counter to Ogryns, be it Grav Blades, Rune armor, Warp Throw or Entangling Web. They will also either employ Dark Reapers or Wraithlords to fend off Ogryns effectively.
Every Eldar hero has an option to Support WG to maximize the hurt. Enhance, Guide, Crackpot, all which synergize very well with the fire on the move trait (especially Enhance).

Eldar have undergone some major changes since your friend played last. There are far too many to list here. New units, abilities and cost changes, etc. The most impactful changes are the addition of Fire Dragons (extremely fast AV melta unit), Dark Reapers (long range anti-HI and SHI unit) and major cost adjustments to Banshees (350 req) and Dire Avengers (270 req) and the moving of the Dire Avenger Exarch into T1 in addition to giving him detection.

In my opinion you better take the last few changelogs about Eldar and translate those because it will give him an idea of what Caeltos changed. Furthermore should he download replays of good players that played the mentioned matchups and observe how the games are playing out.
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Re: Understanding IG vs Eldar match up

Postby Torpid » Sun 22 May, 2016 4:59 pm

In a lot of these the biggest changes are as follows:

Ogryns don't fare half as well vs walkers due to melee resist addition, but they are actually quite a lot more economical now vs infantry due to higher combat hp regen and cheaper costs.

Sentinels are not as strong in T1 especially in this MU due to the presence of the DA exarch and the fact that it now no longer has such a good stomp, nor does it start with it.

Rangers suck. Nobody gets them. Shurikens are just as good as ever, in fact better, because now they can get a BL in T2. So most typical builds vs IG now in elite are 3x DA, 2x SCP. It is not easier than retail and retail felt impossible for me as an IG. This is even harder. It's beyond fucked lol.

You have spotters to counter shuri spam now though and GM have far lower upkeep to counter DA spam to an extent. If DA did not have their exarch in t1 this MU would undoubtedly be far easier in elite than retail. GM >>> DA. Just be wary that catachans aren't half as good. They probably can't solo an autarch anymore for example whereas they did it easy before. Nor can they solo shees if they don't get all their abilities son them in t1 and they just can't in t2 so countering them may rely on more heavy weapon team play.

HWT play is something you friend must get used to as it is no longer bugged and actually a freaking amazing unit between the buffed autocannon, the shield which doesn't need a bleedy sergeant to get... Really good squad, especially in t2!

Manticores got buffed too as they come out onto the field earlier and for cheaper yet do their job of forcing off SUTs from all over the map just as well.

Due to the fire on the move WG and the presence of new threats like dark reapers and fire dragons the strength of the chimera and ogryns in this MU has diminished since retail. Still, they are a strong choice. But you may find yourself relying more on assault kit stormtroopers and autocannon hwt as well as sheer spams of guardsmen (due to their lower upkeep) and even manticores vs eldar now, at least compared to how much you would use such things in retail.

It's true that eldar T3 isn't that scary. Fire prisms are easily killed with melta stormtroopers, las-HWT (which cannot be knocked over by the prism due to the shield lol) and even missle sentinels. Seer council won't beat guardsmen/hwt lines. Nor will an avatar. D-cannons got nerfed so they won't insta-wipe stormtroopers now. T3 isn't an issue. It's T2 spams of wraithguard+falcons (which wraithguard can now get into as well) that will be a real bother. Then you might see fire dragons/dark reapers to follow it up alongside the triple avengers and double/triple shurikens (they can get so many since shurikens can be turned into a brightlance at any time).

Typically an IG will go 3 gm, sent, spotters. Or 2gm, sent, hwt, spotters Or 2gm, sent, cats, spotters. All work tbh. Then in T2 usually a chimera if you have the lead. Otherwise getting some AV out such as melta storms, missle sent or las-hwt is a priority to deal with falcons. If they rush WG you still go ogryns. Commys on your guardsmen are a no-brainer now as they are amazing in combat and unlike retail have literally no upkeep. Then usually after those purchases are a made more hwts will come out as autocannon ones or if a more mobile force is needed (for example one is behind on VPs) then assault kit stormtroopers will be chosen. If spotters alone cannot deal with the SUT spam a manticore may be bought.
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Re: Understanding IG vs Eldar match up

Postby Impregnable » Sun 22 May, 2016 7:05 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:This matchup is very much Eldar favored at the moment. 3 Dire Avengers and the Warlock are such a pain for IG that even the best IG players will testify that the matchup is broken. Dire Avenger Exarch can be purchased in T1, changing the dynamic drastically in favor of Eldar. With the Immolator keeping GM from repairing and 3 DA focus fire on the Sentinel, it can go down in the blink of an eye. There is no need for Rangers to kill a Sentinel. Catachans' IEDs are now useless because the Exarch has keen sight from T1 onwards, making them absolutely useless vs capping squads, unless its Banshees.


I don't play 1 v 1 so I didn't realize this match up went that bad for IG. OMG no wonder my friend said to me that something seems a bit off after watching about 10 IG vs Eldar match up on streams. Thanks for constructive advice. Will certainly translate these for my friend. Also if you guys know anything about IG vs SM match up changes, please do post them too.
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Re: Understanding IG vs Eldar match up

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 24 May, 2016 7:33 pm

3 DA will melt a sentinel (Tactical marine squad dps for 270 req). Throw in a Farseer's guide on one of the squads, a warlock hero with his destructor and melee damage to drive away the GM sqauds, or a WS with his own beefy ranged dps, and the IG character will not be able to hold against an aggressive play by the eldar - assuming roughly equal skill levels.

The exarchs only worsen this by adding substantial ranged damage reduction (which is, of course, the only form of damage that an IG army has in T1). Not to mention that he has a nice leap and increases melee dps from ~33 to ~58. Not that DA are a melee unit, but I frequently use them to tie down weaker ranged units, and the damage increase can make the difference between tying down a unit and actually peeling off some models ( I think he can also perform specials against low melee skill units, which is a huge pain in the ass).

It isn't game breaking, but the matchup in its current state favours the eldar player.
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Re: Understanding IG vs Eldar match up

Postby Lesten » Tue 24 May, 2016 10:36 pm

Oddnerd wrote:The exarchs only worsen this by adding substantial ranged damage reduction (which is, of course, the only form of damage that an IG army has in T1)
They don't get the damage reduction in T1.
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Re: Understanding IG vs Eldar match up

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 25 May, 2016 1:50 am

Lesten wrote:
Oddnerd wrote:The exarchs only worsen this by adding substantial ranged damage reduction (which is, of course, the only form of damage that an IG army has in T1)
They don't get the damage reduction in T1.

:o

I guess thats why you shouldn't skim read tooltips. Still, the RDR hurts in T2, since IG still rely primarily on ranged damaged throughout the game.
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Re: Understanding IG vs Eldar match up

Postby Tex » Wed 25 May, 2016 3:16 am

Its still a crazy hard matchup for IG any way you look at it.

I remember when I switched over to retail, and I bitched for a long time about the SWP/brightlance becoming the best platform in the game (it gets an ability which gives it even more utility than simply being able to be upgraded, where as before eldar actually had to buy the brightlance). The punishment of having to buy a brightlance was directly related to the strength of the haywire grenade. Also, it gave you a power free AV squad in T2.

Anyway, IMO, this match up is not favored for IG at any point in the match if the Eldar decides to build 3x DA's and pushes you off the contested VP in early T1. You have literally no way to break his lines. Further, once the SWP comes out, you are in damage control mode until you have a chimera answer in T2. Then the wraithguard or falcon comes out. Then you generally lose.

I will say though, if you get a good split on your GM's, having dual plasmas reinforced by a chim can put a shit ton of hurt onto WG that are pushing forward.
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Re: Understanding IG vs Eldar match up

Postby PhatE » Thu 26 May, 2016 3:14 pm

Tex wrote:...


The only time it becomes a real nuisance is when the autocannons come out. But essentially with T1 leaders for DA then it becomes a lot more relaxing. With DA exarchs not in T1 then it was definitely a lot harder.

Even just two DA with both upgrades can be a real nuisance and when suppression teams come out then heroes like the LC really suffer, as you've noted in other threads.

The one thing that becomes such a sore is the sentinel but that has to be micro'd so well for it to have the lasting impact that you need. I suppose we should be used to the idea that some units are mandatory for certain matchups by now...

A lot of the MU relies on the T1 since recovery is substantially harder for IG due to the aforementioned units that Eldar have.
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Re: Understanding IG vs Eldar match up

Postby Asmon » Thu 26 May, 2016 7:39 pm

I wouldn't say sentinels are mandatory against Eldar. Inq can do well without them. I could think of some LC shenaningans also. Perhaps LG is the only hero in dire need of them.
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Re: Understanding IG vs Eldar match up

Postby Torpid » Thu 26 May, 2016 8:08 pm

They're mandatory for an optimal build.
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