CSM Marines

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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CSM Marines

Postby CSM Emperor » Thu 10 Sep, 2015 1:33 pm

I was told the idea Mark of Khorne and Tzeentch marines should be a call in like chosen plague marines, this is a great idea and as the chosen plague marines have the ability plague of the undying the Khorne Berzerkers should have the ability Bloodlust which affects that particular squad and will be buffing rest squads, Rubrik Marines should have the ability warp portal which reinforces nearby csm units while the Rubric marines cant move or attack while this ability is active. Both Bloodlust and Daemonic summoning abilities are to be replaced by Khorne Berzerkers and Rubric Marines call in. More abilities should be added to core chaos units. The Rubric / Khorne / Chosen Plague marines should come to a squad of 3 but an aspiring champion purchace should be an option for each squad.
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby DandyFrontline » Thu 10 Sep, 2015 1:51 pm

Balance? Pffff... who cares - let's just add cool stuff.
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby Crewfinity » Thu 10 Sep, 2015 3:00 pm

agreed.

CSM are fine where they are right now, and you didnt back up your proposal with any arguments or points about balance issues.


it would be cool.

just not in this mod.

:)
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Thu 10 Sep, 2015 5:17 pm

It would be cool, but, it would be balanced?

Chosen Plague Marines was a new unit given to PC because the old global (Plague of Undeath) was a good-in-paper-but-awful-in-action ability. An army of undead its awesome, but not if that undead are the worst version of that unit when it wasalive (A killed lvl 4 EW TCSM model turned into a lvl CSM without without upgrades) and even less if that ability could cause you problems. (lololol upkeep lolololo)
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby xXKageAsashinXx » Sat 12 Sep, 2015 5:08 pm

Rather than balanced, minus the rubrick marine, I'd say the question is "Why add more redundancies?" instead, since all those units are basically slightly better versions than the marks, yet you're paying red for them.
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby egewithin » Sat 12 Sep, 2015 5:33 pm

If only we change names with '' Rubric Marines '' and '' Berzerkers '' we can finially make an and to these kinds of ideas. But then it may hurt the lore.

Also, balance please...
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby ChrisNihilus » Mon 14 Sep, 2015 11:39 pm

There will always be this problem.

Chaos has so much stuff in lore and here it's all in one faction (both CSM and Daemons), and in the Codices all this stuff is set in a way that is not the best for a videogame translation.

4 Marks, endless variety and plenty of units are cool when you are building a miniature army, but it's a nightmare for DoW2.

We just need to accept the fact it's impossible to have that.
... or we can always kick out the Daemons and replacing them with CSM variants. It's a start.
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby Paradise Lost » Thu 17 Sep, 2015 9:05 pm

I made a thread like this a few months ago, though I gave a little more thought to balance than you. But unlike most people here I think it can actually be done without being (too) redundant. Berzerkers could be a T3 option for CL only, and Rubrics T3 for CS only. Make zerkers like MoK CSM with slightly more health and more melee skill and damage and either a Bloodlust or Furious Charge ability (which would need an upgrade similar to AC to unlock). For Rubric Marines, make them tankier, slower MoT CSM with an Aspiring Sorcerer upgrade that can cast Doombolts. Limit them to 1 unit per army and make them cost red.

There would still be redundancies, though.
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby ChrisNihilus » Fri 18 Sep, 2015 11:24 pm

But what's the problem of them coming out as an upgrade from CSM, like it is now?
They don't have the name, but they are Berzekers and Rubricae.

In older Codices, cult marines were basically an upgrade for CSM anyway.
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby Codex » Sat 19 Sep, 2015 12:12 pm

Look at tac spam of old, back when drop pods were super cheap ways of getting MOAR tacs, and plasma damage was good anti-all damage. The problem was that tacs were TOO versatile for cost... you need to be careful when making a unit have too many decent upgrade paths because you simply up the viability of spamming said unit.
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby Paradise Lost » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 7:18 pm

ChrisNihilus wrote:But what's the problem of them coming out as an upgrade from CSM, like it is now?
They don't have the name, but they are Berzekers and Rubricae.

In older Codices, cult marines were basically an upgrade for CSM anyway.

Well technically they're not, fluff/tabletop Berzerkers and Rubricae are very different. For example Berserkers are meant to be an assault unit that excels on the charge, instead of counter-initiating jump squads. Rubric Marines have about the same purpose as MoT CSM, but they are tankier and have Slow And Purposeful which, as the rule says, slows them down but suffer no fire on the move penalties (or something like that, it's been a while since I've even touched the tabletop).
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby ChrisNihilus » Mon 21 Sep, 2015 11:53 pm

Paradise Lost wrote:
ChrisNihilus wrote:But what's the problem of them coming out as an upgrade from CSM, like it is now?
They don't have the name, but they are Berzekers and Rubricae.

In older Codices, cult marines were basically an upgrade for CSM anyway.

Well technically they're not, fluff/tabletop Berzerkers and Rubricae are very different. For example Berserkers are meant to be an assault unit that excels on the charge, instead of counter-initiating jump squads. Rubric Marines have about the same purpose as MoT CSM, but they are tankier and have Slow And Purposeful which, as the rule says, slows them down but suffer no fire on the move penalties (or something like that, it's been a while since I've even touched the tabletop).

I know the rules, i play Tabletop.

Still, it's a good middle way between gameplay and lore.

Also, this game was made with the 4th edition codex, the 6th edition wasn't out yet.
MoK was a generic +1 Attack back there, instead of the bonus on charge and countercharge alone.

Slow and Purposeful on a squad with no heavy weapons (like rubricae) is a drawback. They lose overwatch, the ability to run and the sweeping advances but receive no bonus.

Not a perfect rendition of these two units, but it's as close as this game can get.
Also, Noise Marines aren't even close to their Tabletop rules, but i don't see you complaining about them.
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby Dullahan » Tue 22 Sep, 2015 12:12 am

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:It would be cool, but, it would be balanced?

Chosen Plague Marines was a new unit given to PC because the old global (Plague of Undeath) was a good-in-paper-but-awful-in-action ability. An army of undead its awesome, but not if that undead are the worst version of that unit when it wasalive (A killed lvl 4 EW TCSM model turned into a lvl CSM without without upgrades) and even less if that ability could cause you problems. (lololol upkeep lolololo)



Plague of Undeath was great. It was just too expensive compared to plague cloud and both were force retreat buttons. It was especially powerful against Tyranids.

Imagine how strong it would have been at 150 or 175 red instead of 250?
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby Paradise Lost » Tue 22 Sep, 2015 6:18 pm

ChrisNihilus wrote:
Paradise Lost wrote:
ChrisNihilus wrote:But what's the problem of them coming out as an upgrade from CSM, like it is now?
They don't have the name, but they are Berzekers and Rubricae.

In older Codices, cult marines were basically an upgrade for CSM anyway.

Well technically they're not, fluff/tabletop Berzerkers and Rubricae are very different. For example Berserkers are meant to be an assault unit that excels on the charge, instead of counter-initiating jump squads. Rubric Marines have about the same purpose as MoT CSM, but they are tankier and have Slow And Purposeful which, as the rule says, slows them down but suffer no fire on the move penalties (or something like that, it's been a while since I've even touched the tabletop).

I know the rules, i play Tabletop.

Still, it's a good middle way between gameplay and lore.

Also, this game was made with the 4th edition codex, the 6th edition wasn't out yet.
MoK was a generic +1 Attack back there, instead of the bonus on charge and countercharge alone.

Slow and Purposeful on a squad with no heavy weapons (like rubricae) is a drawback. They lose overwatch, the ability to run and the sweeping advances but receive no bonus.

Not a perfect rendition of these two units, but it's as close as this game can get.
Also, Noise Marines aren't even close to their Tabletop rules, but i don't see you complaining about them.

That's why I didin't mention SaP as an advantage, but rather a balancing factor. And about Noise Marines, I guess it's because they are actually there instead of just being 'Mark of Slaneesh CSM'. True, MoK and MoT behave differently here than in the tabletop, but I don't see a need to replace them. Rather, make it closer to what they do in the tabletop and add the actual Cult Units as T3 elite-but-not-quite-superunit squads, sorta like Karskins, Lictor/Neurothrope or Interceptors. Of course, they would depend on the commander and perhaps be limited to 1. At the same time, this would make CSM more like their tabletop counterparts.

I'm not saying, nor think, this should or must be added, nor that it would fit this mod.

But that it is doable without gangraping the balance with a cactus? Certainly!
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby xXKageAsashinXx » Thu 24 Sep, 2015 5:18 pm

Paradise Lost wrote:gangraping the balance with a cactus

If we could like posts, I'd have mashed teh button a million times just for this line alone.
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby ChrisNihilus » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 3:37 pm

[quote="Paradise Lost]T3 elite-but-not-quite-superunit squads[/quote]
Or we could have something we don't have yet, like Chosens or Possesseds, that definitely feels like they belong to T3.
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby ChrisNihilus » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 3:37 pm

Paradise Lost wrote:T3 elite-but-not-quite-superunit squads

Or we could have something we don't have yet, like Chosens or Possesseds, that definitely feels like they belong to T3.
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby Paradise Lost » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 8:07 pm

ChrisNihilus wrote:
Paradise Lost wrote:T3 elite-but-not-quite-superunit squads

Or we could have something we don't have yet, like Chosens or Possesseds, that definitely feels like they belong to T3.

How would chosen/possessed work though?
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby ChrisNihilus » Sat 26 Sep, 2015 12:30 am

Paradise Lost wrote:How would chosen/possessed work though?

That I cannot say.
This we are talking about is more wishlisting, Chaos don't really need any more units in reality.

Chaos T3 is still pretty forgettable respect other factions, but its more of an lacking of T3 upgrades thingy.
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby xXKageAsashinXx » Sat 26 Sep, 2015 1:54 am

Paradise Lost wrote:How would chosen/possessed work though?

Simple. Stern/van upgrade. It's copying SM, yeah, but when you think about it, that's all they are. Compared to plague, rubrick, berzrkers, chosen and possessed are just normal CSM (can they even be called normal?) that are better than the rest in a similar fashion that the first company is better than the rest of the chapter. To add onto that, I can even see chosen and possessed being separate upgrades that you have to choose from like with the marks that give different buffs that are better in certain situations than others. Possessed would give suppression resist and more hp or something while chosen would give a damage buff and damage resist... or something. Though obviously one upgrade would work better with a certain mark than the other i.e. possessed MoK and chosen MoT if we used what I proposed.

As for the different units altogether, I'd still love to see berserkers and rubricks running around if nothing more than for diversity. When I first got on here I ended up making rosters for specific CSM bands like world eaters and thousand suns. They had the rubrick marine and berserkers somewhat fleshed out in case you want a starting point.
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby Paradise Lost » Sat 26 Sep, 2015 3:35 am

xXKageAsashinXx wrote:
Paradise Lost wrote:How would chosen/possessed work though?

Simple. Stern/van upgrade. It's copying SM, yeah, but when you think about it, that's all they are. Compared to plague, rubrick, berzrkers, chosen and possessed are just normal CSM (can they even be called normal?) that are better than the rest in a similar fashion that the first company is better than the rest of the chapter. To add onto that, I can even see chosen and possessed being separate upgrades that you have to choose from like with the marks that give different buffs that are better in certain situations than others. Possessed would give suppression resist and more hp or something while chosen would give a damage buff and damage resist... or something. Though obviously one upgrade would work better with a certain mark than the other i.e. possessed MoK and chosen MoT if we used what I proposed.

As for the different units altogether, I'd still love to see berserkers and rubricks running around if nothing more than for diversity. When I first got on here I ended up making rosters for specific CSM bands like world eaters and thousand suns. They had the rubrick marine and berserkers somewhat fleshed out in case you want a starting point.

Kage you just gave me an amazing idea. How about replacing the Tzeench and Khorne marks for Posessed and Chosen upgrades? And then we implement Berzerkers and Rubricae to make Chaos T3 actually interesting. Otherwise I think having those two extra upgrades would give CSM a little too much versatility if the Marks are kept there in their current form.
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby Nurland » Sat 26 Sep, 2015 9:17 am

I do think Chaos roster is pretty much fine atm. CSM are in a good spot with their upgrades. Some other stuff might actually need to be nerfed imho.

The only thing I could support is a subcommander.
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby Indrid » Sat 26 Sep, 2015 9:56 am

The role of Possessed and Chosen would be best assigned as versatile elite T3 troops I think. Chosen CSM using combi-weapons, giving them access to a variety of damage types for a short duration. Possessed having morphing melee weapons for different damage types, but being locked in place while mutating. Should Chaos have these extra versatile in options in T3 though? No. I'd like to see them get a 4th Slaaneshi hero.
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby saltychipmunk » Sat 26 Sep, 2015 7:44 pm

at some point there will be such a thing as too many units. at that point (assuming we actually make it there) it may be prudent to consider making certain super units leader specific much how chosen are only for the plague champ.
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby CSM Emperor » Thu 01 Oct, 2015 5:13 pm

ChrisNihilus wrote:There will always be this problem.

Chaos has so much stuff in lore and here it's all in one faction (both CSM and Daemons), and in the Codices all this stuff is set in a way that is not the best for a videogame translation.

4 Marks, endless variety and plenty of units are cool when you are building a miniature army, but it's a nightmare for DoW2.

We just need to accept the fact it's impossible to have that.
... or we can always kick out the Daemons and replacing them with CSM variants. It's a start.


i understand your point.
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby CSM Emperor » Thu 01 Oct, 2015 5:16 pm

Indrid wrote:The role of Possessed and Chosen would be best assigned as versatile elite T3 troops I think. Chosen CSM using combi-weapons, giving them access to a variety of damage types for a short duration. Possessed having morphing melee weapons for different damage types, but being locked in place while mutating. Should Chaos have these extra versatile in options in T3 though? No. I'd like to see them get a 4th Slaaneshi hero.


yes Slaaneshii hero is more important. The thing is Khorne worship is like Slaanesh's in the lore, as Slaanesh is considered first strike and speed. Khorne worship should buff damage and Slaanesh when is made should buff movement speed !
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Tue 06 Oct, 2015 8:49 pm

CSM Emperor wrote:yes Slaaneshii hero is more important. The thing is Khorne worship is like Slaanesh's in the lore, as Slaanesh is considered first strike and speed. Khorne worship should buff damage and Slaanesh when is made should buff movement speed !

Not necessarily. In combat, Khorne and Slaanesh are similar but not equal. Think on Khorne as a immune to pain Berserker and Slaanesh as a masochist duelist. Both kill stuff, both resist damage, but not in the same way.
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby ChrisNihilus » Wed 07 Oct, 2015 12:16 am

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:Think on Khorne as a immune to pain Berserker and Slaanesh as a masochist duelist. Both kill stuff, both resist damage, but not in the same way.

Resisting damage is not for Khorne.
He likes the blood of everybody and, in fact, his soldiers and daemons are typically the most fragile in all Chaos. He likes it brutal.

Slaaneshi warriors can be quite tough, instead, when required.

Khorne worship should buff damage and Slaanesh when is made should buff movement speed !

Agreed
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby xXKageAsashinXx » Fri 09 Oct, 2015 5:08 pm

ChrisNihilus wrote:
Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:Think on Khorne as a immune to pain Berserker and Slaanesh as a masochist duelist. Both kill stuff, both resist damage, but not in the same way.

Resisting damage is not for Khorne.
He likes the blood of everybody and, in fact, his soldiers and daemons are typically the most fragile in all Chaos. He likes it brutal.

Slaaneshi warriors can be quite tough, instead, when required.

Khorne worship should buff damage and Slaanesh when is made should buff movement speed !

Agreed

You'd think that Khorne warriors would be the most damage resistant, since the more damage they take, the more they bleed, and the more time they have to make others bleed before they die and add their skulls to the skull throne, but that might just be my common sense talking.

As for what seemed to have become the topic here, if we have a Mark of Slaanesh CSM for melee, to put in the masochistic trait of theirs, couldn't we just give them buffs according to their hp? The lower it goes, the faster and more damage they do? If an ability is needed, then have a damage reduction one that also debuffs when activated for like 5 seconds or so.
Khorne worship should buff damage and Slaanesh when is made should buff movement speed !

Agreed

Definitely, though what about the shrine? Buff damage resistance for allies and debuff for enemies?
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Re: CSM Marines

Postby Paradise Lost » Fri 09 Oct, 2015 10:54 pm

Slaneesh troops and daemons are not damage resistant. In fact, Khorne champions are only second to Nurgle Champions in resilience. A Cadian once said about killing World Eaters:

''The only way I know how to kill one of these guys is to stick a grenade under their helmets. Can't fight if you don't have a head. Only works 50% of the time though''.

You'd think the guys who charge mindlessly into fortified positions should be able to take some shots before going down. It is also a scientific fact that frenzied people/animals have much greater pain resistance. Slaneesh troops are more about using their improved senses to dodge attacks, because they in fact feel much more pain than anyone else (even though they enjoy it).

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