Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Elite (and related) releases.
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Deuce Bigalow
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Deuce Bigalow » Tue 22 Dec, 2020 6:30 pm

In addition to what is being discussed:

1. I would like to see ravener (squad) firing pattern changed to not do so much damage in a single, quick burst. Maybe increase the burst duration a little or adjust the health damage stat and play with cooldown/windup/reload etc. Something such that their damage is more over time and less all-at-once.

2. Spore mines should only be anti-garrison imo (reduce cost).
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Maromar
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Maromar » Tue 22 Dec, 2020 8:59 pm

Deuce Bigalow wrote:In addition to what is being discussed:

1. I would like to see ravener (squad) firing pattern changed to not do so much damage in a single, quick burst. Maybe increase the burst duration a little or adjust the health damage stat and play with cooldown/windup/reload etc. Something such that their damage is more over time and less all-at-once.

2. Spore mines should only be anti-garrison imo (reduce cost).



Not sure about the Ravener. It's pretty squishy so it needs the burst damage to be combat effective against other ranged units.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby LOCALgHOST » Wed 23 Dec, 2020 6:32 pm

Maromar wrote:
Deuce Bigalow wrote:In addition to what is being discussed:

1. I would like to see ravener (squad) firing pattern changed to not do so much damage in a single, quick burst. Maybe increase the burst duration a little or adjust the health damage stat and play with cooldown/windup/reload etc. Something such that their damage is more over time and less all-at-once.

2. Spore mines should only be anti-garrison imo (reduce cost).



Not sure about the Ravener. It's pretty squishy so it needs the burst damage to be combat effective against other ranged units.


300 hp per model is not "squishy"
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby PianoMan » Thu 24 Dec, 2020 7:16 am

LOCALgHOST wrote:
Maromar wrote:
Deuce Bigalow wrote:In addition to what is being discussed:

1. I would like to see ravener (squad) firing pattern changed to not do so much damage in a single, quick burst. Maybe increase the burst duration a little or adjust the health damage stat and play with cooldown/windup/reload etc. Something such that their damage is more over time and less all-at-once.

2. Spore mines should only be anti-garrison imo (reduce cost).



Not sure about the Ravener. It's pretty squishy so it needs the burst damage to be combat effective against other ranged units.


300 hp per model is not "squishy"

It is squishy, but not to the units it's supposed to trade with in ranged.
50 pesos say maromar is another indrid balance expert
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Shroom
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Shroom » Thu 24 Dec, 2020 1:13 pm

PianoMan wrote:50 pesos say maromar is another indrid balance expert

ill add another 10 to that bet
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Maromar » Thu 24 Dec, 2020 10:24 pm

PianoMan wrote:
LOCALgHOST wrote:It is squishy, but not to the units it's supposed to trade with in ranged.
50 pesos say maromar is another indrid balance expert



Shroom wrote:
PianoMan wrote:ill add another 10 to that bet


Are we really doing this? Really?

Okay.

All this vitriol is laughable, especially coming from you, Piano. After seeing you heckle another user for their concerns about an inferno pistol bug, I know the level of regard I should have for any of your appeals to legitimacy. So you stoop to "I have X hours in the game Y rank and would totally have a letterman jacket if Elite ESL was sport." Whenever the situation calls for a disagreement. Good to know. :lol:

I never claimed to be an expert, but one doesn't need to be when you note that Raveners are a three unit squad with infantry armor. The other units they compete with are better at attrition or are more survivable, even against the burst dps. Ranged ravagers need support to do big damage. They're not in a terrible spot right now.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby PianoMan » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 8:37 am

raveners directly fight with guardians, tacs, csm and rarely with ig units, neither case is more survivable, ranged raveners do not do a lot of damage, they are the support unit to your damage dealers
and one does have to be good at the game to be able to tell how a unit highly dependant on positioning works, listening to beginners leads to horrible changes such as interceptors having to wait 2 seconds before jumping
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Maromar » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 12:21 pm

PianoMan wrote:raveners directly fight with guardians, tacs, csm and rarely with ig units, neither case is more survivable, ranged raveners do not do a lot of damage, they are the support unit to your damage dealers
and one does have to be good at the game to be able to tell how a unit highly dependant on positioning works, listening to beginners leads to horrible changes such as interceptors having to wait 2 seconds before jumping


Raveners also cost more than all of those basic ranged infantry units and serve as an alternate t 1.5 choice, they're like lite stormtroopers if you take them as a ranged option, the burst is fine. In situations where you have them out, they obviously won't be tanking gunlines by default, as I mentioned earlier. And they do a rather good amount of damage when protected.

I also never claimed to be a beginner. Just not an expert. I've been playing this game for years, I just don't usually post on the forums. In the case of listening to even a beginner's ideas, all you have to do is have a roundtable discussion to rule out what stinks and what doesn't. Kind of like we're doing right now. Discourse.

Being good at the game isn't a requirement for having a say in regards to balance. It helps, sure. But all it really takes is a nose for pattern recognition and logic. Bowing to the opinion of just the top players can result in lopsided changes meant to give them an edge as well as a community more toxic than an underhive. Curb your elitism.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby OceansAteAlaska » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 1:38 pm

My man compared creeping barrage to vials and is talking about logic
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby PianoMan » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 3:12 pm

pattern recognition and logic coupled with having 2 hands leads to being a top player, so why am i one and you're not
you are a beginner, having a lot of hours doesn't mean anything if you do not improve
you've compared vials to creeping barrages and now you've compared storm troopers to raveners, ridiculous
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Maromar » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 3:34 pm

PianoMan wrote:pattern recognition and logic coupled with having 2 hands leads to being a top player, so why am i one and you're not
you are a beginner, having a lot of hours doesn't mean anything if you do not improve
you've compared vials to creeping barrages and now you've compared storm troopers to raveners, ridiculous


You assume much.

You're one (though given the size of the community it's not as hard as other games) because you have more hours and likely started before me, while I play on and off. Additionally there's rote memorization, reaction time, and playing against opponents of similar and greater experience. But if you want to sell yourself short, that's fine :D.

Neither of which matters enough to disqualify what I've said. You're just posing a "nuh uh" argument at this point and ignoring a large swath of everything to make quips, it's embarrassing. Stop being disingenuous if you have anything of merit to say.

The difference isn't ridiculous at all; fragile specialist burst infantry with relatively low unit counts when taken as ranged.

I'm not directly comparing vials and barrage as if they serve the exact same function, and vials isn't even the only thing I brought up. We both know that. I was talking about costs, cooldowns and field presence in regards to IG matchups. You refused to engage the argument on those grounds for some reason. But you do seem to take every opportunity to say you're a top player. I'm not impressed, stop trying.

At this point I have to ask you if you're a troll or someone who puts all of their worth into being a L33T buzzard over the corpse of a decaying game.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby OceansAteAlaska » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 3:40 pm

You can stop trying to sound smart brother, we already know you're not the brightest guy after you compared vials to creeping barrage :)
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby OceansAteAlaska » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 3:41 pm

Maromar wrote:
PianoMan wrote:
Maromar wrote:do not compare niche artillery units to insta win engagement anywhere on the map and steam-roll your opponent type of globals



I don't see it. Creeping barrage has enough of a tell and windup to be reliably dodged unless units are on a point or attacking a static position (in which case the just have to sidestep). Compare that to purification grenades', noxious clouds, and the foot of gork which all deal more damage and have more presence to be insta win buttons.


Thats a direct comparison btw :)
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby OceansAteAlaska » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 3:43 pm

Maromar wrote:
Shroom wrote:creeping barrage is one of the best globals in the game and cannot be compared to vials or foot of gork



But it can be. As a ranged hero, the LG doesn't have ready made options to provide knockback, and possesses only minimal melee counter-engage. Combine this with the above mentioned abilities effectiveness against guardsmen, and you can see why creeping barrage is an essential part of the LG's kit. Raising the cooldown like this coupled with the recent retinue melee scaling reduction (a change that I think works tbh, he shouldn't be good in melee) leaves a gap where the LG can be abused mid-game.

I'm taking into account the foot and vials effectiveness against the guard and not other races for the purpose of this discussion because that's where it is relevant.

On a side note, if you're telling me that you're struggling against creeping barrage and not against the other abilities which have more kill potential, are harder to doge and have more field presence, maybe you just need to learn how to crabwalk.


But i am sure that your argument of "haha just dodge better" is very good because you tried so hard to make yourself sound smart :)
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby PianoMan » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 3:47 pm

then stop complaining about the game if it's dead and stop contradicting yourself, before you said you have years of experiences and now you're backpedalling????
I do refuse to acknowledge anything you say because it's wrong from the beginning and you have 0 background as a player
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Maromar » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 3:50 pm

OceansAteAlaska wrote:
Maromar wrote:
Shroom wrote:creeping barrage is one of the best globals in the game and cannot be compared to vials or foot of gork



But it can be. As a ranged hero, the LG doesn't have ready made options to provide knockback, and possesses only minimal melee counter-engage. Combine this with the above mentioned abilities effectiveness against guardsmen, and you can see why creeping barrage is an essential part of the LG's kit. Raising the cooldown like this coupled with the recent retinue melee scaling reduction (a change that I think works tbh, he shouldn't be good in melee) leaves a gap where the LG can be abused mid-game.

I'm taking into account the foot and vials effectiveness against the guard and not other races for the purpose of this discussion because that's where it is relevant.

On a side note, if you're telling me that you're struggling against creeping barrage and not against the other abilities which have more kill potential, are harder to doge and have more field presence, maybe you just need to learn how to crabwalk.


But i am sure that your argument of "haha just dodge better" is very good because you tried so hard to make yourself sound smart :)


No one's trying to sound smart, just looking at the deets as they are. Maybe the issue is in connotations? By direct comparison, I meant seeing the skills things that could fill the exact role as each other, which they don't. You're also taking this out of context, as I just got done explaining how the ability is easier to dodge. If I'm wrong in regards to that, fine, I'm wrong; but I'd expect a better argument then "no it isn't".

PianoMan wrote:then stop complaining about the game if it's dead and stop contradicting yourself, before you said you have years of experiences and now you're backpedalling????
I do refuse to acknowledge anything you say because it's wrong from the beginning and you have 0 background as a player



Where did I backpedal?

I've been playing the game since 2014, just not as often as people who've made this game a large chunk of their lives. Not being the best at the game and not being a beginner aren't mutually exclusive. Again, you assume much.

I'm not complaining about the game, I'm telling you how ridiculous you sound and pointing out that most of your arguments have been you saying "I'm good". I don't understand what you don't understand about all of this.
Last edited by Maromar on Fri 25 Dec, 2020 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby OceansAteAlaska » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 3:56 pm

That's where the difference is between people who backseat and actual players. In theory, to you at least, creeping barrage is easy to dodge. But in practice most players would probably agree that its not easy to dodge especially when youre in the middle of an engagement and you have set up teams.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Maromar » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 3:58 pm

OceansAteAlaska wrote:That's where the difference is between people who backseat and actual players. In theory, to you at least, creeping barrage is easy to dodge. But in practice most players would probably agree that its not easy to dodge especially when youre in the middle of an engagement and you have set up teams.


Anything is hard to dodge under suppression. I shouldn't have to explain that to you.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby OceansAteAlaska » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 4:00 pm

I meant when hes using creeping barrage on your set ups... Maybe instead of trying to be a smartass you actually think 5 seconds before typing something
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Maromar » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 4:03 pm

OceansAteAlaska wrote:I meant when hes using creeping barrage on your set ups... Maybe instead of trying to be a smartass you actually think 5 seconds before typing something


The way it was worded could have gone either way. The one being a smartass is you, I'm afraid. Setup teams also can't avoid the other abilities well while deployed, so I don't think your point works either way.

Unless you mean to tell me that creeping barrage is so much more effective against setup teams or other positional units than other abilities or in combination with the LG's kit that it justifies the CD increase. In such a case, pose that argument instead.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby OceansAteAlaska » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 4:05 pm

But you said it yourself that it's hard to dodge anything when suppressed and that you shouldn't have to explain it to me so isn't it obvious that that is not what i meant?:)
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Maromar » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 4:06 pm

OceansAteAlaska wrote:But you said it yourself that it's hard to dodge anything when suppressed and that you shouldn't have to explain it to me so isn't it obvious that that is not what i meant?:)


No. And again, a deployed setup team isn't dodging any of those skills, mate :). I'm not dating you, I can't read your implications between the lines. Just like the confusion over what a "direct comparison" is which, admittedly, was probably a fault of me not making my language clear.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby OceansAteAlaska » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 4:09 pm

What skills ? If you move fast enough you can run away from a noxioud cloud , or split. You can also see an incoming vial throw from a mile away :)
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Maromar » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 4:10 pm

OceansAteAlaska wrote:What skills ? If you move fast enough you can run away from a noxioud cloud , or split. You can also see an incoming vial throw from a mile away :)


But that setup team won't tear down the equipment in time to run in most cases.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby PianoMan » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 4:13 pm

Maromar wrote:
OceansAteAlaska wrote:What skills ? If you move fast enough you can run away from a noxioud cloud , or split. You can also see an incoming vial throw from a mile away :)


But that setup team won't tear down the equipment in time to run in most cases.

press X then
just stop brother
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Maromar » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 4:14 pm

PianoMan wrote:
Maromar wrote:
OceansAteAlaska wrote:What skills ? If you move fast enough you can run away from a noxioud cloud , or split. You can also see an incoming vial throw from a mile away :)


But that setup team won't tear down the equipment in time to run in most cases.

press X then
just stop brother


Same thing against creeping barrage. Even then, those skills remain more dangerous on retreat than creeping barrage unless you preempt them or are playing a race that isn't as squishy as the guard.

Just stop brother.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby PianoMan » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 4:17 pm

Maromar wrote:
PianoMan wrote:
Maromar wrote:
But that setup team won't tear down the equipment in time to run in most cases.

press X then
just stop brother


Same thing against creeping barrage. Even then, those skills remain more dangerous on retreat than creeping barrage unless you preempt them or are playing a race that isn't as squishy as the guard.

Just stop brother.

barrage forces off your entire army, setup team is one unit
and anyway nobody buys vials because they're overpriced and pale in comparison to rites which directly support how apo wants to play
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Maromar » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 4:26 pm

PianoMan wrote:
Maromar wrote:
PianoMan wrote:press X then
just stop brother


Same thing against creeping barrage. Even then, those skills remain more dangerous on retreat than creeping barrage unless you preempt them or are playing a race that isn't as squishy as the guard.

Just stop brother.

barrage forces off your entire army, setup team is one unit
and anyway nobody buys vials because they're overpriced and pale in comparison to rites which directly support how apo wants to play


Vials can decimate nids and ig, it's a situational pick. It's also not the only skill I brought up or should be considered. Nice cherry-picking though.

The setup team is indeed one unit, but it's more vulnerable to the barrage and the barrage does less damage. Far less. The potential to force off an entire army is the reason it's a global and not an ability that can be spammed like the others. Again, the argument isn't a direct comparison of the abilities, just an inquiry as to the justification for the cd increase. I said if the reason for the cd increase is just the ability to disrupt, then in the face of other options available to other races, and the LG's lack of natural on demand knockback on a large scale or ability to force units off with non-globals alone, then I don't see it.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Cyris » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 6:48 pm

This thread is like watching anti-vaxxers argue with doctors.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby PianoMan » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 7:34 pm

nids current meta against space marines is very resistant to vials, you simply need purification rites to be able to hold and against IG you do not have the spare resources to buy vials, it's a very niche upgrade
greets best apo and ra main himself

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