(6p) Estia Province

[Indrid]

(6p) Estia Province
by Indrid



Background

Urban environment, home to the wealthy trade guild leaders that control the surrounding industrial districts. Estia Province now sees the beginnings of conflict from all sides.

Layout

Two natural, one contested VP configuration. Natural VPs located along the eastern edge, contested VP on the west. Natural power points mid and west, contested points along central east-west main road.

Design

Defined by the main crossroads, the west side offers some advantage to mobile melee-focused play; using the heavy_crush walls to flank and harras. You do not need to push far to bash power and decap the natural req on the west, but mobility is rewarded if you can flank in from the centre blocking off retreat paths. All paths lead to the relatively open contested VP in a park on the west side.

The mid and east are dominated by the main roads, leading to lots of open cover-to-cover firefights. Cunning commanders will be rewarded with melee forces if they can exploit the LoS blockers that are dotted around, especially at the very centre of the crossroads. The mid player will be able to flank the west using the walls to their advantage, or support pushes and defences in mid and east.

The far east is where the natural VPs sit, overlooked by garrisons. The eastern player must decide whether to play defensively, and try to hold the eastern contested power for a tech advantage, or push on to pressure the natural VP. Or a combination of the two. The eastern player must always be aware of mid, and be ready to assist power bashes or defences there when needed, rewarding mobility.

Enjoy!

1.0

• Initial release

1.1

• Placed some more shot-blockers near the western VP and along the central road to help general map balance
• Removed the excessive use of lights on the east side

1.2

• Placed some extra shot-blockers and a little more cover to certain power points to aid against the potential proliferation of movement in those areas
• Updated loading screen to reflect changes

1.3

• Fixed pathing issue related to the houses
• Some misc changes to the mid

1.3.1

• Re-done lighting

1.4

• Bases pushed up slightly, approx. 16m
• Natural VPs moved to north-south road
• Natural power moved to east side
• Extra shot-blockers added/adjusted
• Misc. cover and cosmetic changes

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Very good map.

Only one thing: in the natural and contested power nodes i have the feeling there is too much open space and few cover. In essence, i have the feeling it's a too much open map, which could help to vehicles to avoid path problems, but not sure against melee builds :/

[Indrid]

Added some extra shot blockers and a little more cover to some power points (mid natural, contested west, contested east) to aid against the potential proliferation of movement in those areas. You gotta remember that you can't pack power points too tightly or you'll block generator construction, especially if players try to exploit an already tight space by building their own stuff to block it.

Also: open areas with cover are generally good against melee armies since you can see them coming and they have to run around your cover.

The west natural powers were left untouched.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

My mistake. I wrote too much quickly and i didn't read again my post before post it.

When i said:
"In essence, i have the feeling it's a too much open map, which could help to vehicles to avoid path problems, but not sure against melee builds :/"

I meant that too much open areas can harm you if you play WITH melee builds (lack of cover, things like walls...), and of course, open areas are very good AGAINST melee builds.

But, well, you added more cover so I have nothing more say. Great map

Sorry again for the misunderstanding.

[Indrid]

np!

In general I like open maps, but was sure to dot around some LoS blockers to reward some melee play through the mid.

[MaxPower]

Well Indrid, first of all I think it is a good map layout wise, but I think that it lacks details. It doesn't fell look like a "real" city, the industrial parts on the eastern side look way too clean, no rust splats and stuff.

Yes you told me that you added some grime_straight or was it straight_grime splats on all the walls, yet it still fells way too clean, even for a just vacated city.

Anyways I took your map and tweaked one place, showing you how I think it feels more realistic.



The things I've changed:

- replaced 1 texture layer (was 1 of the metal bar ones, sad side effect nearly all the places on the east look like dirt now, well that would require some more work, but thats beside the point)
- replaced some splats, added some splats
- replaced some plants, added new plants
- added some different grasses (like ferns, always remember that ferns look good in corners, also a natural place where you gonna find ferns in rl)
- added some little details like rubble so the destroyed benches feel more realistic

I know that this would take a lot of time to tweak the map so it might look like this, but trust me the result is worth the effort.

[Indrid]

I appreciate your splat fetish Max, and it does look good, I just wanted the map to look like it had only seen fighting for a day or so. Supplies hastily dropped in, some rudimentary defences erected, etc.

[MaxPower]

Uh, splat fetish, eh, that is new.

[Indrid]

Updated to 1.3.1, final version unless some major issue is discovered.

[Castle]

Uh, splat fetish, eh, that is new.

awesome


I have not yet tried the map, I will take a look today. Based off of the images thus far, and your map designs from previous--and Max's feedback above--I figure I will reply much the same as Max has after testing....

Open maps are okay, especially for 3v3 play. But in my experience it really only rewards "spam" type play where heavy T1 builds will almost always excel. Thus, matches tend to fall out of balance for one side or another because resources start to fall off quickly once teams are pushed off. Or the match just isn't that interesting, watching blobs and mobs double and triple across the map. Even Argus Desert Gate lacks detail and more skilled play requirements. IMO, Golgotha Depths and Medean Cliff Mines are some of the better maps for various options of play: lots of flank options, lanes are solid, there are some height changes and platforms to fire from and you can't double too easily because there is lots of space between player spawns. Plus you can ambush fairly well from the edges or corners; Depths is still a bit straight forward though, as almost all the retail maps are. It takes time and a lot of planning to really work through better details and expand on play options for maps.... the answer seems best found in working with the terrain very accurately. It is also easy to over-do details, so I appreciate the 'less is more' approach you tend to have Indrid.

As for your concern on "crowding" power nodes: if the node will build 3 gens, it will build 3 gens in my experience. Whether or not a player builds structures in the vicinity, 3 gens will drop. I have spent hours and hours testing all ma gens in ma map, that's just how it goes. Gens may however change their configuration in how they drop. My map has some rather tight power node placement in regards to environment restrictions etc. So far, all gens still drop, even when shrines or turrets or Waagh banners are built near. The worst that can happen is a path is blocked by a gen or two, or partially blocked. But honestly, that is a part of the game. If a player decides to crowd a node with structures, so be it. The player can remove the structures if need be, and the change(s) to the map are another part of play.... so long as it is not drastic. I would worry more about what will make a good map interesting and exciting, less about how gens drop down. So long as 3 gens do drop from a node without screwing the function of the area, all is working as it should be.


Thanks for all the work man! Will add more after testing!

[Indrid]

Make sure you use the updated 1.3.1 link in the first post.

Generators can and do get blocked by tight places and additional structures. Having tight gen areas also makes bashing and/or defending power a chore.

Please test the map before commenting on how it does or doesn't play.

[Castle]

Finally got some time to test yer map.


Playing the map is pretty fun. Reminds me of Return to Golgotha in size, with Argus Gate and Kasyr Lutien type progression here and there. I like the cover building you have done in the mid, but I kept feeling like it was just too open, like it was chaos and messy for general game-play and combat everywhere, most of the time.

I am sure I will get my barrings in time, but I had to check the mini-map a lot to be sure I knew where I was; terrain feels a bit too uniform or repetitive in the middle in particular. Players need ques from all sorts of factors, thus good map design (details etc) in RTS are crucial so players can maintain their barrings well.

Why a power node in a highly contested area in the West? Between the two natural VP's? No one will ever hold it long and it would be foolish to build on it. Not to mention the node occasionally being targeted prime. Which brings me to the next point: power seemed to take forever to come in, even when my team held 4 nodes fully setup, with one bare but capped. The travel times alone will mean team resources will fall off easy as soon as one team pushes off and burns gens. Thus one team will be able to buy upgrades well ahead of others etc. etc., thus becomes the 'spam' cycle that many complain about.

I would see about getting at least one more power node in for a 3v3 map.

Gen bashing and decapping happens, but it really shouldn't be too easy to do by the design and the terrain of a map in the first place. You should be forced to go past a comfortable position tactically, to take out nodes and gens in the other teams half of the map. In this case, it's quite easy with so much power being out on flat ground and with the nodes so far out in the mid. At a guess, the two main nodes for each side appear to be some 100m's from the nearest HQ's, and with no blocking from sight or fire from the opposite side. Matches in this map are gonna be either very long rounds of dragging it out, or very quick rounds of pure own-age from one side upon the other I figure.

The heavy walls are cool, but I think they add to the chaos that ensues the way they are broken up. Perhaps make them longer and more substantial in some way? and some should be turned for blocking West/East.

The Power Node, between the nat VP's to the East, is also right in the middle of troop movement, and can be reached by simply walking down the corresponding ramp either north to south, or south to north. So, time for more constructive criticism: blocking the direct north/south path--from the nat VP areas, with say an elevated deck would be good, with a barracks or at least good cover at the edge. That way the nat VP is protected some and the team that holds the power node can attempt a suppression crew etc. to hold their investment(s). This focuses combat toward the mid and the contested VP and reduces congestion by focusing direct travel away from the power node that sits directly in a major area of travel. The team that wins the opposing natural VP certainly deserves to bash the gens and/or flip the power node etc.

There's a lot to think about in map design, try to break away from so much structure and typical approach.

Nice work otherwise, though I do need to leave off with my last post here: that such terrain is pretty boring and allows for very straight forward play overall. Flanking, teleporting and stealth all have very basic practices for tactical use. Hiding Eldar gates more than their own ability to hide will be a little tricky for instance. Also, you have tons of room around those Power Nodes, not sure what you are so worried about...

*Just to counter your comments over on my map thread, I was confused myself for a few on not being able to click and use the barracks to the East (non playable area). It happens until you know the map... and sometimes new things are hard bud So, touche .

I actually found the non-playable area to the East to be generally distracting, since the camera practically moves right into the region, because it is so close to the edge of the playable area. And the long wall is quite boring to the eye, adding further to a loss of barrings when looking around. I say put something tall at the edge.... or break up the wall and do something about the barracks looking accessible at least. Not sure why there would be barracks not accessible for a major conflict, in an area so close by?

[Indrid]

Thanks for the feedback. The map is generally simple and linear, as I want to get my maps into the game and not spend many months making them. I think it's good looking and fun to play, which is what I aim for. It may not do anything new or exciting, but the best and most iconic 3v3 maps in DoW2 are the simple ones generally. I am trying to emulate that.

More power nodes? There are six, four natural and two contested. 5-6 is typical for 3v3 maps, 7 being very rare. In fact I can't think of any that have 7. Yes, the contested nodes are in the middle of the map, just as they are on Argus and the single on Typhon etc. Generators are rarely built on contested nodes on any map, just the way it is.

Your other points are all valid, but I think come down to personal preference. I generally prefer maps where the power is not too safe as I find them dull, and the generally open and "uniform" layout in the middle is due to the fact that it is a civilian road littered with things because of conflict. I couldn't really put a building in the middle of it. This is also the reason why it's generally flat. I did agonise a lot over adding more protection for the natural power nodes, but decided to have them vulnerable. There is ample cover to defend them from though.

I wasn't being bitchy, but you started the post with saying you hadn't tested it and then went on to form opinions and compare it to other maps, and then went on to talk about those other maps. Stop taking everything so personally and being so sensitive, nothing has "gone to my head" (celebrity? lulz?) and I'm the first to see the layout shortfalls in my maps (ask Max). This is getting silly and sounds like juvenile forum "drama". Nobody is taking shots at anybody's map for fun or to be spiteful or anything like that. So let's lay off making anything personal as you are beginning to. Making it seem like I am some kind of DoW2 diva is ridiculous and very far from the truth, and I don't really appreciate the accusation.

I am astonished that you don't think any of the feedback I gave about your map was constructive. I made specific points about specific things, that is the definition of constructive feedback.

[Lulgrim]

Please test the map before commenting on how it does or doesn't play.

This is a bitchy response and not appreciated.

Seems like a reasonable idea to me.

casting matches and being a DOW2 celebrity go to your head m8? Cuz yer acting like it

This is a retarded response and not appreciated.

[Major Richard Sharpe]

Castle, you are being bloody uncouth with that damnable curt and random response, Indrid made a perfectly valid statement (if a bit obvious) and you apparently decided to use it as a judgment call of his character??!!

[MaxPower]

Oh this is good stuff (the drama that is),

anyways the things I still would change about ur maps are ofc the lack of splines and i think u should us a ligther yellow for them lamps, other then that it looks and plays fine (well okay it doesnt have the awesome Max Power detail level going for it, but hey, thats my trademark - okay im joking).

And to be honest, just from the looks of it, your map (indrids that is) looks infinitely better than castles. But I'll post some feedback about ur map (castle) tonight.

[Ace of Swords]

I kept feeling like it was just too open, like it was chaos and messy for general game-play and combat everywhere, most of the time.

This is good, Am I the only who finds argus so fucking boring?

[Kvek]

This is good, Am I the only who finds argus so fucking boring?

Well if you play the map 5056412x yeah it's boring :p

[Castle]

Castle, you are being bloody uncouth with that damnable curt and random response, Indrid made a perfectly valid statement (if a bit obvious) and you apparently decided to use it as a judgment call of his character??!!

Oh please... I am not attacking anyone's character. Please do not make things worse. I did call things as I felt I saw them. Indrid has been very curt here, in other posts in my thread and I have experience as much in the past. I do not appreciate it and said as much.

Why others are getting involved is beyond me, nor is it helping.

Anyway, sorry for the drama and poor comments guys. I guess I got too involved here. Lesson learned

[Batpimp]

I almost never find it boring. best map evar!

Also Castle in having conversations with both you and Indrid I would say you are the one whom is sensitive. Every response has to come out with smile from us for you to not take it personally. Indrid never attacked your character or being as you have done to him. He specifically stated his opinion on your map and left it at that. I appreciate you trying to make a map that you find more appealing but honestly. I WAY prefer the "boring" tried and true maps than zonky terrain angles and super laney highways. I want an attack to come from any direction as in argus

[hiveminion]

I've played the map a couple of times and I think it's pretty good. One thing I did notice was that the raised platforms at the natural VPs have railings that seem to block line of sight. I've seen an eldar weapons platform sitting on the ledge unable to fire at troops beneath. Dunno if this is intentional but I thought I'd mention it here.

Good job Indrid!

[Indrid]

That was intentional; to stop people using turrets to shoot up/through the walls into the VPs. However, it's causing behaviour that players don't expect (as you pointed out) and there is ample opportunity to flank such turrets I think. It has been removed/fixed for the next build, as well as some other minor changes here and there.

[FiSH]

i like playing this map. just one thing, the covers on the raised vps don't seem crushable, and vehicle pathing can be pretty bad because of that. can you make them crushable?

[Torpid]

I played a game earlier and I was at the left hand side of the map, with the contested central VP, I was dominating my foe all game (literal base locking basically) but my ally on the opposite of the map (the lane with the contested power and the two victory points) was doing equally as bad as my foe, he couldn't hold his natural VP. The problem was that the map is so wide that it was nearly impossible for me to be able to support that area without losing my vp; both middle players were already fighting more or less exclusively on that side of the map, I had took out both of natural farms, but on most other maps - argus,typhon,calderis this issue wouldn't have happened. In the end we lost.

My solution would be to change the positioning of the VPs somehow, maybe squeeze them all together. Then again that would really mess with map design, so am I going to have to just suck it up that this happens and hope for competent allies?

[FiSH]

maybe just send one setup squad or something like that over to that side? there's bunch of garrisons on the vp side so you don't have to worry about them too much.

[MaxPower]

Well the map kinda looks okay (too clean though + add more splats [go beserk with them splats] and add more dirt_rubble 1 i guess) and the nonplayable area looks kinda boring too.

I also think that the map is a bit too wide, making it virtually impossible to support both sides as a slow faction like sm.

And maybe u should get rid of the bunkers near the contested vp.

[Indrid]

Initially the natural VPs were gonna be on the central north-south road where the natural powers are, and the powers moved to the east. I asked around the first test lobbies and every said to keep it like this. It is a wide map, but if you totally dominated your side and bashed both powers and still lost I'd say your allies were just badly outplayed.

@FISH unfortunately you can't choose the cover/crushable values of objects, you just have to make do with whatever Relic arbitrarily decided they would be. I did not realise those low walls would be uncrushable though, and they've already been replaced since.

[Torpid]

Well I was tyranids to set-up teams weren't much of a thing, but I needed to flank with my entire army but the width of the map meant me and my foe were constantly crawling around the southern edge of the map near their bases and I had no opportunity to move further east without losing my VP, sending a smaller force off to the other side was futile as this was the late game and they had baneblades and kasrkins and lemans and the whole shizz. Basically the issue is that that side lane is really really important. If I had got that lane we would have won because it would have likely took two foes to move my force off that nat VP of theirs leaving my allies to double the other guy at the contested.

Could the natural VP at the east edge be a power for one side, and then their power at the centre becomes a natural VP? Basically work it out so that each player either loses a power and a VP but not two VPs? See on argus the middle has two vps 0 power but it is FAR easier to support the middle player if somebody is camping on that VP.

Edit: noted what you said about the initial VP positioning. Not sure whether I agree with the tester's consensus however. Also, I'm gonna check if I can get a replay of that game. Damn, nobody else has it and despite what I initially thought it seems I did play a game after that one, oh well.

[Indrid]

@Max you already made your point about "add more splatz!" in this thread, no need to do so again. I don't think the map lacks in detail personally.

@Torpid, the distance from natural to contested VPs is a valid concern and I may choose to move the VPs to the mid, but you can't have it asymmetrical as you suggest I don't think.

[Helios]

I think the map's aesthetics and layout are very nice. The raised natural VP's are a nice touch. I mean, honestly, there's only so many ways you can place 3 distinct points in a symmetrical fashion fair to both sides. It will basically come down to the layout and locations of the rest of the captureable points.

The one thing I don't like though is there is a lot of useless space. If it could be shrunk horizontally (I forget which end is north... when I say horizontally I mean from one team's side to the other) that would be nice. Let's say you're in the bottom lane with the single VP. Getting to that first requisition and power node seems to be miles away, relatively speaking. Then there's the large open spaces in that same lane off to the side of the player with not much except a garrisonable building. Could probably streamline the map a little and edge that stuff out. Also the giant road ways make sense given that IG would need to move lot of armor and vehicles, but perhaps some sandbags here and there would work well to make it look a tiny bit less barren? Kinda like how you see the occasional cover on Angel Gate. But that I don't have an issue with really. If you were going for a map with an "untouched" look that wasn't expecting a battle it makes sense for it all to be clear.