2.9 Update and Patching Stream Announcement.

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Atlas

2.9 Update and Patching Stream Announcement.

Postby Atlas » Fri 19 Oct, 2018 9:57 pm

Hey guys o/

I apologize for the radio silence, but things have been pretty crazy. I'd like to get you all up to date, though some may already know.

Cyris was our appointed Balance Head, but he got into a pretty big car accident and has been basically radio silent ever since. This happened right around October 1. I can't tell you too much because I only got a small message myself, but at a minimum it ended with his family's car completely totaled and them struggling to get things back together as far as I know. I don't know if anyone is hurt, but I'll just assume not for now.

I've waited about two weeks at this point but I think that's enough time. For the remainder of the 2.9 patch, I'm going to just take it over and push it out as we've been sitting on it for too long at this point. What happens after, we'll see. I presume we'll just move on to a next Balance Head but maybe Cyris comes back or something. We'll see.

Which brings me to the second-half of what I want to talk about. You guys have seen the 2.9 Beta log, but before it goes into total production it was in need of revisions. Normally, Balance Head handles this but well yeah. So, as a substitute, I think it would be good to have myself streaming and working on the changes and allowing people to directly feedback to me during the work. Otherwise I'll just be doing this stuff "offline" on my computer but if it interests you, you can watch like this.

I think you guys will be able to more easily respond rather than leaving comments in a Google Doc and it'll give you guys a much better idea of how changes work under the hood.

Instead of asking "is X possible?" you can just see me manipulate Cope's on stream to just show you.
"What if we did X?" could just be me doing the change and streaming/testing it live.
At the most public-oriented, I can hand out a quick quasi-beta to have you guys play it. It'll be super dirty, but it's better than nothing right?

I was thinking I could do a stream marathon of this tomorrow, October 20th as doing all the changes at once will be pretty time consuming. If you guys have another date in mind, I could hold off a little and do it almost any Thursday, Friday or Saturday.

Thank you! Let me know either here or in Discord!
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Re: 2.9 Update and Patching Stream Announcement.

Postby Broodwich » Fri 19 Oct, 2018 11:18 pm

Well i hope Cyris and co are ok. If they all got out of it without major injury, then that's great news, even if financially it sucks.

I would like to request two things that more or less were in play before:

1. Keep balance discussion on the forum. I don't care to jump around to twitch or discord or AIM etc to keep track of what random people are thinking. That style ends up in big WTF changes like we saw with Cyris's patch notes.

2. Give a reason for said changes. A good first step is a clear consensus that unit x under/overperforms in given situations. Then follow with suggestions. If you don't have the first part, then the second will probably be crap

My 2c
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Torpid
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Re: 2.9 Update and Patching Stream Announcement.

Postby Torpid » Sat 20 Oct, 2018 5:43 am

Broodwich wrote:Well i hope Cyris and co are ok. If they all got out of it without major injury, then that's great news, even if financially it sucks.

I would like to request two things that more or less were in play before:

1. Keep balance discussion on the forum. I don't care to jump around to twitch or discord or AIM etc to keep track of what random people are thinking. That style ends up in big WTF changes like we saw with Cyris's patch notes.

2. Give a reason for said changes. A good first step is a clear consensus that unit x under/overperforms in given situations. Then follow with suggestions. If you don't have the first part, then the second will probably be crap

My 2c


Nobody on the discord's was suggesting the style of changes Cyris proposed. He kinda just did that on his own. And the lack of justifications was very bad.

Transparency is utterly crucial.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
Atlas

Re: 2.9 Update and Patching Stream Announcement.

Postby Atlas » Sat 20 Oct, 2018 6:18 am

Right, so I'm going to go ahead and do the stream tomorrow then and we'll see how it goes. I'm looking to start somewhere in the noon to 1 pm EST time which is in the afternoon out in Europe. Anywhere form 6 - 9 pm depending on where in Europe you are.

It'll be a long one. At LEAST 3 hours even if I did nothing but the changes already listed, but I hope there to be a lot of feedback and conversation for revisions. I'll see you all then!
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Re: 2.9 Update and Patching Stream Announcement.

Postby Impregnable » Sat 20 Oct, 2018 6:53 am

Nobody on the discord's was suggesting the style of changes Cyris proposed. He kinda just did that on his own. And the lack of justifications was very bad.

Transparency is utterly crucial.

Can't agree with you more.
In order for a balance change to go through we need agreement on 3 steps.
1. Recognize something is a problem
2. Figure out why it is a problem
3. Find out solution to the problem

Less agreement the community has on each step less likely that balance changes will be justified. Especially getting a majority agreement on step 1 is crucial for if someone does not agree on step 1, no matter how hard you try to justify step 2 and 3, it won't be accepted. How can you persuade someone who does not even agree on that there is a problem to accept reasoning and solution behind the balance change? That is why the most effort of the balance lead should be focused on reaching a consensus on step 1.

Imo the bottom line for a balance patch to get through is to have majority consensus on step 1 on so called inner circle players of top 1v1 players. Since most changes for this mod is based on 1v1, persuading top 1v1 players is crucial for a patch. The problem i have with Cyris as balance lead is that he is not even getting past bottom line for step 1. He skips all the majority consensus that has to be reached on each step and just put out patch notes and i don't believe that is how it should be done.
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Re: 2.9 Update and Patching Stream Announcement.

Postby MaxPower » Sat 20 Oct, 2018 9:27 am

Impregnable wrote: In order for a balance change to go through we need agreement on 3 steps.
1. Recognize something is a problem
2. Figure out why it is a problem
3. Find out solution to the problem


I guess doing balance would be better if it would be a PDCA circle, wont you agree?

1. Plan - Recognize something is a problem
2. Do - implement the planned solution to said problem
3. Check - check if the solution is workin as intended or if another solution might be more beneficial
4. Act - Check if the balance is better compared to what you had prior to the implementation of said solution during the Do-Phase, if yes, keep it, if not, start the planning phase again.
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Re: 2.9 Update and Patching Stream Announcement.

Postby Impregnable » Sat 20 Oct, 2018 10:33 am

MaxPower wrote:
Impregnable wrote: In order for a balance change to go through we need agreement on 3 steps.
1. Recognize something is a problem
2. Figure out why it is a problem
3. Find out solution to the problem


I guess doing balance would be better if it would be a PDCA circle, wont you agree?

1. Plan - Recognize something is a problem
2. Do - implement the planned solution to said problem
3. Check - check if the solution is workin as intended or if another solution might be more beneficial
4. Act - Check if the balance is better compared to what you had prior to the implementation of said solution during the Do-Phase, if yes, keep it, if not, start the planning phase again.


Although balance leads up to now didn't specify that way, i think they were following pdca circle steps. Problem was Cyris was 1st lead that didn't. As Torpid pointed out, majority of changes Cyris went for were on things that not many players recognized as a problem at all. That is why there were extreme hostile reponses towards patch notes. If there is no persuasive arguments for P step, how good you do on DCA steps won't matter.
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"I'm going to California!"
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MaxPower
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Re: 2.9 Update and Patching Stream Announcement.

Postby MaxPower » Sat 20 Oct, 2018 11:02 am

Impregnable wrote: Although balance leads up to now didn't specify that way, i think they were following pdca circle steps. Problem was Cyris was 1st lead that didn't. As Torpid pointed out, majority of changes Cyris went for were on things that not many players recognized as a problem at all. That is why there were extreme hostile reponses towards patch notes. If there is no persuasive arguments for P step, how good you do on DCA steps won't matter.


True, true, but the problem with your 3 step solution is that you didn't check if the solution brought forth is better or worse compared to the initial situation (the A - part of the circle).
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Re: 2.9 Update and Patching Stream Announcement.

Postby Aetherion » Sat 20 Oct, 2018 3:07 pm

At least remember to sellout your twitch url XD

https://www.twitch.tv/atlastheinquiring

ur welcome
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Re: 2.9 Update and Patching Stream Announcement.

Postby Impregnable » Sat 20 Oct, 2018 3:59 pm

MaxPower wrote:True, true, but the problem with your 3 step solution is that you didn't check if the solution brought forth is better or worse compared to the initial situation (the A - part of the circle).


I think I phrased my answer wrongly. I do agree on your point. PDCA circle is a more than adequate solution and there was never a case before in which a balance lead didn't follow that method up until recently. 3 steps i proposed was just for explaining why players were so against Cyris' way of doing things. Checking whether patch worked as intended is important indeed.
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Re: 2.9 Update and Patching Stream Announcement.

Postby boss » Sat 20 Oct, 2018 4:13 pm

First off when you put random players in change of balance no wonder patchs take half a year to get going. Cyris should never been in lead guy barely even fucking played the mod let alone understand it no wonder 2.9 looks like a pile of shit put together. I just hope this time you use comon sense when you pick the next balance lead but then one can only hope.

Since 2.4 this mod have not got much better at all only good thing to come out since then is new maps other than that only some changes here and there on units. One reason why this is cos the changes don't go on the forums and get done in fucking google docs in hidden from most of the players till the last minute why is this we have the forums for a reason you know maybe we should use them other than bitching at each other.

Then we might see this mod move along instead of being in the same spot for 2 years we not come very far since 2.4 and its very sad :cry:
Forums great more stuff to talk about.
Atlas

Re: 2.9 Update and Patching Stream Announcement.

Postby Atlas » Thu 25 Oct, 2018 5:52 pm

Aetherion wrote:At least remember to sellout your twitch url XD

https://www.twitch.tv/atlastheinquiring

ur welcome


You're the best :P

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