Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Elite (and related) releases.
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Fr33man1800
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Fr33man1800 » Sat 29 Oct, 2016 11:32 am

This is my list of things that should had been on the patch.

I’m not going to go over GK cause in my opinion specially with the new changes, they are beyond salvation. Few very good needed changes and some very very very questionable reworks.

Changes

I think I forgot some aditional changes so I will edit them in.

Revert nade damage to vehicles

Revert courage dmg reduction in heavy cover

Gates cost should be 75 red

WG without FoTM and just more HP with no new changes are going to be useless

WSE should only get 360 special with powerbldes

RA hive node should have a build time, the construction does not need to be channeled.

Beacons should go to t2

Spore mine mechanics are cancer, make them anti garrison not heretics worst nightmare

Tics are in a terrible state, remove combat regen. And buff the AC upgrade for them maybe buff melee damage or increase doomblast dmg. GL tics if anything are overperforming and regen will make them OP AF, especially with PC-

PM over perform massively, the change of upkeep is definitely not the right one, reduce DoT, health regen , slow , dmg vs inf…

CPM are a total joke and rotation does NOTHING to address their problem

Mekboy beam is a joke with nobz

HWT need to be back as they were, srly they are terribly broken and the change in price does nothing to address their problems. Sarg as long as they remain what their where imo is not the unbalancing factor here.

IG multilaser turrets need to cost 5 red, currently they are used just as a free excuse for the IG player to force flamers and get an easy VP lead or hold very comfortably a solo lane. Since IG almost always wins first engagements. Also is encouraging campy play which makes the game more boring for everyone. That change will only be significant for cancer multilaser rushing to vps early game , will still allow the use for bashing power or helping to reduce Req float , force off flamers or hold an area.

I’m not convinced on FDs just being 10 power more, that does not address their issue with their over performance, similar as HWT. Make them have less damage, lose their KB imunity etc….

Rangers need to be reworked.

Towers should have cooldown on the rippers and spore mines spwans.

IG leaders should have the change torpid proposed. ATM 3x GM build with reinforcement support is incredibly OP, especially with their repair speed and the heavy vehicle play of IG late game.

Lightning claws for the chaos lord should remain their old price

MoT dred change reverted. Vanilla dreds are already the most popular choice and nerfing MoT makes little sense when all the t3 tanks in the game are amazing, and besides chaos has amazing AV so you tend to see MoT very few times anyway.

Sorc buffs are totally uncalled for, the only buff it needs is fixing the bug in which it doesn’t fire the full volley with doombolts, even with the full energy bar. Dark flames for 125 power is way too cheap, especially considering that now is mostly used to kill structures or try to get squads in retreat. IMO the global itself could use some little extra initial damage, and less DoT on the ground.

Spirit stones should NOT give 2x XP upon revive, that is incredibly broken in 3v3 and you will see ppl sometimes get lvl 7 fs in t1. The wargear on its own is already very very usefull and certainly does not need that perk.

EDIT: Gaunts for Nids give way too much XP, considering that some patches ago the health was nerfed and they still give the same XP , and that is a massive problem in 3s. I would suggest reducing slightly the XP they give to make them more in line with the new health as well as endless swarm upgrade.

EDIT: Soc warp global shoudnt affect fallen comanders, basically gives XP and rez so becomes OP version of larraman

Considerations

Waaagh banners are wayyy to spamable and crazy strong on 3s, maybe increasing each new banner cost slightly or adding some red cost to them would be the way to go.

Lootas are perhaps too strong currently, free infiltration and two shooting transports is a little bit too strong. Especially in conjunction with commanders like MEK or CN. Maybe add 15 red cost for infiltration on lootas or reduce slightly the damage on beamy lootas and make it fire more often.

BCs are perhaps a little bit too good/cheap still.

Eldritch is a little bit OTT especially considering the bug that allows it to one shot stuff. With all of the nukes in this game having some weakness to them seems odd that the eldar one is just plain braindead. And on a race that has the best nuke setups.

Wraithlord maybe could use some love , I find now that it underperforms slightly , but maybe after the falcon nerfs we will see it more.

HT bioplasma is fairly useless atm , could use slight CD reduction or damage increase or something similar. Nids have zoans for blobs and HT already kinda counters setups with the right wargears.

HT charge + talons combo is way to strong on t1 , especially vs some races or MU such as chaos. In my opinion talons could use 5 power increase, especially considering that the weapon is crazy strong at retreat killing.

LC power sword and INQ holy brazier could use 5 power increase as well.

Reduce the XP for reviving commanders, you already save the 250 req and makes very little sense that loosing commanders is to an extent beneficial. And let’s not forget that you can get XP with 2 heroes so overall you gain more XP for being kill that the enemy gets from you.

Not convinced on the drain life buff. Armor is amazing is just that inferno is more popular cause it takes less thought. (just watch Nurland streams to see that armor used masterfully).

Without number is a braindead global, could use some req cost like 100, or just rework the global.

Not conviced on the Raveners rework.

Plasmas for the kasr could use some price reduction since plasma GM are way way better and you lose a lot of range. Also might be encouraging to add back the meltas since they did had some uses and would make the squad more versatile , hence making it more attractive to get over the leman spam. With the sarg new ability and meltas could be nice to use them vs defensive structures or just quick finishers of injured vehicles. – Maybe a cool experimental change could be that kasr could switch to any of the weapons at their disposal for free. Kind off like commanders do.
Last edited by Fr33man1800 on Sat 29 Oct, 2016 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby hiveminion » Sat 29 Oct, 2016 12:30 pm

+1 for pretty much everything Freeman said.

And for god sake give Nids their snare back. This idea of 'win in T1 or lose' being somehow a cool meta-whatever is beyond me. I don't see how it leads to fun games for either the Nid player or his opponent. Why even give Nids a T3.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Sat 29 Oct, 2016 1:07 pm

hiveminion wrote:+1 for pretty much everything Freeman said.

And for god sake give Nids their snare back. This idea of 'win in T1 or lose' being somehow a cool meta-whatever is beyond me. I don't see how it leads to fun games for either the Nid player or his opponent. Why even give Nids a T3.




Come 26:45 you will understand... 8-) EDIT: I KEED I KEED, I JOKE I JOKE

To the topic at hand: I also agree with almost everything what Freeman said.
Last edited by Adeptus Noobus on Sat 29 Oct, 2016 1:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby hiveminion » Sat 29 Oct, 2016 1:09 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:
Come 26:45 you will understand... 8-)


And all you need is 1 tank.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby jmcopel » Sat 29 Oct, 2016 5:19 pm

and Please Please Please fix the AI.

It's fun to vs AI every now and then, but now that they fail to take power points it kills the game.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Sat 29 Oct, 2016 9:43 pm

jmcopel wrote:and Please Please Please fix the AI.

It's fun to vs AI every now and then, but now that they fail to take power points it kills the game.

Since nodes are targetable again that should be a thing of the past. At least that was my first experience in a 2.6 test game.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Oddnerd » Sat 29 Oct, 2016 9:52 pm

All my ++++++ to Freeman's post.

Particularly the grenade AV damage. Conventional frag grenades are meant to be anti-infantry and will do negligible damage to a vehicle. Leave the AV to krak and melta grenades.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Wise Windu » Sat 29 Oct, 2016 9:53 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Since nodes are targetable again that should be a thing of the past. At least that was my first experience in a 2.6 test game.
They're not. Majority voted against it in the poll thread I made. It would certainly help with the AI.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Sat 29 Oct, 2016 11:29 pm

Wise Windu wrote:
Adeptus Noobus wrote:Since nodes are targetable again that should be a thing of the past. At least that was my first experience in a 2.6 test game.
They're not. Majority voted against it in the poll thread I made. It would certainly help with the AI.


Ah ok. I always thought it would be patched in. I remember though that somebody not too long ago posted a mod that enables that feature again and that alone.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby boss » Sun 30 Oct, 2016 2:49 pm

I agree with what freeman has said a lot of his changers would have fix what was wrong with 2.5 the nade damage to vehicles is just stupid for one.

Plague Marines should just be made heavy infantry with less damage to infantry. Chosen Plague Marines are just why lets give pc more ways for you to not go melee vs him i don't even no how to fix them cos why does a pc even need them.

i don't think that making the Tyrant Guard cost 5 more power will fix what was wrong with it shield wall can last for ages nerfing the health regeneration helps but still can just shield wall and tank for so long i was thinking that shield can be made like what the Wraithlord and wraithgaurd has Wraithbone where can heal for a bit and get vehicle armor for like 8 sec then leaves it with a cool down of like 30sec or more so this would fix that shield wont last for ever and takes abit more skill to use that's just what i think would fix the Tyrant Guard.

lootas are very strong with patch infiltration needs to go their not shit no more so infiltration loss will be fine. waaagh banners spam is gay and stupid 5 power cost should stop this. Boss pole cost increased is why no one get this angry bits is just better in 1s and teams make your wb not useless so he can flank easy and not only buff himself but knocking back enemies and just being a pain. it good to see the painboy being giving melee resistance aura now i can use him in some of my builds now. abit sad to not see stromboys buffs tho :cry:

One last think which worries me is that no zoan snare in 1s the snare it very important it wasn't the snare that was not op it was that how cheap and that the heath regan stacks with other zonas to crazy regan still not fix this. now these day you need in 1s you need to win in t1 as nids before vehicle come out or dread so good luck in killing any vehicle with out a snare.
Forums great more stuff to talk about.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby hiveminion » Sun 30 Oct, 2016 3:10 pm

boss wrote:
One last think which worries me is that no zoan snare in 1s the snare it very important it wasn't the snare that was not op it was that how cheap and that the heath regan stacks with other zonas to crazy regan still not fix this. now these day you need in 1s you need to win in t1 as nids before vehicle come out or dread so good luck in killing any vehicle with out a snare.


I completely forgot about this, but yes FIX THE ZOAN REGEN AURA. Just convert it to an additive value rather than a stacking multiplier.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby jmcopel » Sun 30 Oct, 2016 4:43 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:
Wise Windu wrote:
Adeptus Noobus wrote:Since nodes are targetable again that should be a thing of the past. At least that was my first experience in a 2.6 test game.
They're not. Majority voted against it in the poll thread I made. It would certainly help with the AI.


Ah ok. I always thought it would be patched in. I remember though that somebody not too long ago posted a mod that enables that feature again and that alone.


Why would people vote for keeping this issue? Dumbs down the AI big time.

I've tried using that patch but it's just a mission, you need to open up a separate instance of Dawn of War and then it doesn't work with online play.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Kvn » Sun 30 Oct, 2016 5:37 pm

jmcopel wrote:Why would people vote for keeping this issue? Dumbs down the AI big time.

I've tried using that patch but it's just a mission, you need to open up a separate instance of Dawn of War and then it doesn't work with online play.


Because it caused a lot of issues when not playing against the AI. For example, your units would prioritize shooting a power nod over enemies, and fights around enemy gen farms would become a serious pain and could potentially get your squads killed. Given that the AI battles are typically a lower priority than the main balance, it was a matter for discussion rather than an obvious change.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Tinibombini » Sun 30 Oct, 2016 11:15 pm

jmcopel wrote:Why would people vote for keeping this issue? Dumbs down the AI big time.




Please keep in mind that Elite is a modification aimed at improving competitive multiplayer - anything else is completely secondary with respect to Elite. There may be a mod somewhere that improves the AI for comp stomps (I have not idea) but that is not this mod's and community's focus.

Hopefully that explains why players voted against a change that had unintended consequences for competitive multiplayer.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Wise Windu » Mon 31 Oct, 2016 1:53 am

Tinibombini wrote:Hopefully that explains why players voted against a change that had unintended consequences for competitive multiplayer.
The removal of auto-target did have unintended consequences on the multiplayer. For example, the inability of turrets to damage power nodes. The consequences were just much more acceptable than having vehicles and AV weapons auto-fire at power nodes instead of useful targets. But at the time of the vote, no one had played with the hold fire command. I personally think it should at least be tried in one of these test patches before being completely dismissed.

Edit: And now that I look again, the poll is now actually in favor of the reintroduction by 3 votes, so it looks like we will at least try it out in one of the test patches :P

Edit 2: or maybe not. Myrdal tested it and it seems it's not great

3: ignore things I'm saying. Trying to figure something out.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby darthmisery » Mon 31 Oct, 2016 4:49 am

As we all know, the tm beacon has been an issue for some time. Just wanted to get people's thoughts on maybe making it a purchasable accessorie or even an ability of the tm's artificer armour instead of the mines. Just a thought. This may be stupid, but just wanted to put it out there.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Flash » Mon 31 Oct, 2016 2:41 pm

I also agree with a lot of what freeman said. For the parts I'm unsure about I don't think I have the chops to dispute them.

On ork lootas. I think the infiltration is neccissary due to requiring a completly separate unit to snare, and that ability costs red. I basically rely on the sneakiness to kill transports and tanks. Now the thing does do bonkers damage from out of nowhere, and thebeam is quick and doesn't command attention the way the laz cannons do. I'm perfectly ok with/would actually like a trade of fire rate vs burst damage. Each shot does a bit less, but shoots quicker like Freeman said.

I would agree that waagghh banners are too spammable in teams. Again I prefer we didn't add a red cost. Or at least it would depend on how much. I find at least one banner is basically neccissary as the warboss against the WSE. Squishy just get picked off. Still don't have a good counter for him, but that might be a strategy problem on my part.

I would still like the kustom shootah and the apo full auto abilities looked at. I got the shootah in 3-4 games this past weekend, and I think it actually knocked something over 25% of the time when targeting a commander. RNG abilities are bad imo.

I'm not sure if it was mentioned before but is it intended for the Apo heal aura and the scout Regen to stack?

Freeman, if I might ask your indulgence, what were your thoughts on GK/OM in terms of what direction they needed to go and why this is the wrong one?
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Ace of Swords » Mon 31 Oct, 2016 3:19 pm

- Blood Sacrifice Global red cost increased from 150 to 175.


The cost is fine as it is, care to explain the reasoning behind this?
- Nurgle Shrines no longer suppresses Nob squads under the effect of Frenzy.


this should be under bug fixes.

- Chaos Sorcerer bolt pistol with default sword and flame sword damage
increased from 14 to 21.
- Rod of Warpfire wargear cost reduced from 150/30 to 130/25.


These changes are fine however dark flames should stay 150 and the sorc has already strong wargear but it's expensive it lost strenght when the tics got nerfed as he relies on them more than the other 2 chaos heroes at the same the PC became stronger mostly due to retarded CPM so the sorc saw a decrease in popularity, I think just lowering the cost of some wargears OR just rebuffing tics is enough to make him a very very strong hero.
- Mark of Khorne upgrade cost reduced from 70/30 to 70/25.


Not really sure whats the point of this either, reasoning?

- Burst duration decreased from 3 seconds to 2.5 seconds.
- Damage decreased from 55 to 50.
- Weapon wind down decreased from 1 to 0.5.
- Reload frequency from 0 to 2.
- Reload duration from 0 to 1.


Looks decent

- Cost increased from 250/60 to 280/60.
- Experience yield increased from 500 to 600.


I'd rather just see it on 300 req and leave xp as it is.

- Blood Rage ability duration reduced from 15 seconds to 12 seconds.
- Frenzied Barrage ability flame damage removed.
- Mark of Tzeentch upgrade cost reduced from 100/30 to 80/25.


???

Chaos Predator:
- Population cost increased from 15 to 18.


About time it was normalized with the sm pred.


Falcon:
- Falcon Speed reduced from 8 to 7.

Energy Shield
- Falcon Energy shield upgrade cost reduced from 100/35 to 100/30.
- Falcon Energy Shield upgrade in T3 no longer reduces falcon speed by 1.
- Energy Shield conversion ratio decreased from 5:1 health to energy ratio to
3.5:1 health to energy ratio.


The problem with the falcon is how quickly it comes how out and for how little cost it provides a transport to avoid AoE, mobile reinforcement, strong AI and AV decent enough to threat walkers and kill other transports, as well as how quickly it regens energy in T3.
Supa Tuff Beam
- Supa Tuff Beam energy cost increased from 50 to 70.
- Supa Tuff Bean damage reduction reduced from 70% to 50%.


This is not enough it was still OP when it was 50%, it needs a cost decrese & removal of suppression immunity and a longer CD.





Now Im' grouping all of the following together:

Plague Marines:
- Acceleration decreased from 30 to 8.
- Upkeep increased from 10.2 to 12.75.(need clarification - now normalized)

+

CPM


+


Heretics


Dire Avengers:
- Dire Avenger hp reduced from 120 to 110.
- Dire Avenger Battle Equipment grants 10% hp increase for squad members.

Dire Avenger Exarch
- Hp reduced from 275 to 250.
- Dire Avenger Exarch Damage Resistance Aura ranged damage reduction changed from 20% to 10% at level 1/2 and 20% at Level 3/4.
- Exarch leap knockback type changed from light_weapon_pvp to weapon_pvp.
- Exarch leap domino strength reduced from 50 to 0.
- Exarch pop cost increased from 2 to 3.
- Exarch upkeep cost increased from 4.1538 to 7.65.


Wraithguard:
- Wraithguard can no longer fire on the move.
- Wraithguard health increased from 666 to 700.
- Wraithguard Exarch can no longer leap or knockback targeted units. (suggestion)


Land Raider Redeemer:
- Land Raider Redeemer courage damage removed from flamer weaponry.
- Land Raider Redeemer Heavy Flamer damage increased from 18 dps to 22 dps.


All of this needs to go back when they were considered fine there's no need to make pointless changes for the sake of fucking everything up.

For the rest outside of OM changes which are just an absurd mess I'm not even gonna bother to touch and the pointless termies change everything else looks acceptable.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Mon 31 Oct, 2016 3:48 pm

On the GK/OM changes (preliminary):

The most obvious change is also the most controversial one - Aegis now being a shield with the BC still having 1000hp. Why is that? Because Strike Squads now start with the Purify ability which can give the BC engery back to his shield. Double Strike Squads now also have their Psycannons back which I will still have to dive in deeper but it means they are not as useless anymore come T2. Add to that they now only cost 400 req instead of 450.
Crewfinity has mentioned the combination of Aegis + 2 SS with Purify is not hard to beat. Well I totally disagree. You are giving a unsupressable commander a shield and 2 of his heavy infantry follow up units the possibility to replenish his shield (the cooldown is also very low). Add to that the 50 red global. All in all, I'd call that a lot of T1 pressure potential.

To be continued...

P.S: +1 to everything Ace said
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Fr33man1800 » Mon 31 Oct, 2016 4:21 pm

Its imposible to cover GK ill just say the very very core changes , Cause ATM there is plenty wrong with GK. Mostly is the core units and some very cheesy cancer mechanics the race has.

Things that need to be changed.

-Terms should NOT retreat . EVER . Give more HP they lose retreat, they are already diferent enough to the other variants
-Palas shockwave needs to be nerfed
-New Pdev GK dread is going to be crazy with 55 range. Even with reduced damage.
- BC wargears for t1 are too good and too cheap
- IST sarg needs to have standard detection
- SS are fucked and they are the core unit of the faction


SS re-balance took the wrong aproach. Now they are even more OP than in 2.5 . Sure they have less ranged and melee damage but they are also cheaper, AND still have the special. The main issue with this unit in melee was not the damage was the crazy special they get. The burst ranged dps they had was obiously retarded so changing that was the right aproach. Their performance in T1 was crazy OP and their t2 transition was filled with worthless upgrades and massive req costs making them fairly useless in comparison with Tacs/CSM. And the worst ofender is that next patch they get FOR FREE and at the start with almost no cooldown the purify ability.

Not only that synergizes hyper well with the new aegis/shield mechanic, but also in 3v3 or 2v2 has a masive potential for imbalance with some energy intensive comanders or units in T1. Like FC w/ iron halo,lord general with catas, apo with asm...

In my opinion GK is already a mix between chaos and SM and while that might sound boring i rahter have a playable faction rather than a new one with broken unfinished and unpolished mechanics. In an ideal world i would redesign completly the faction like i.e making SS a t 1.5 unit. So if they are going to stay like a mix between the 2 , why not add similar mechanics and upgrades such as the other 2 factions ?

For example i would aproach the rebalance of SS that way: Make SS have the same extra melee damage that CSM get in t1 while mantaining the durability of tacs and the option for a special weapon in t1 in the form of the incinerator. That way you have a mixture between the 2. Rather than have a unit that excels at both. Obiously this would imply removing the melee special.

For t2 go again with the same aproach , give an upgrade called Nemesis forcus ( or something similar) and make the SS get the special and a charge kind off like the MoK CSM upgrade. That way you could use melee builds with purifiers or term libby. Perhaps to make them more different make them have an ability that slows enemy units at the costs of energy per second or any other perk that might seem desirable. Like I.e Slower than purifiers but more heavy hitting etc...

And as for ranged option remove the the amunition upgrade and have the psilencers just have similar DPS or the same of plasma guns, you can change the firing pattern so its constant like now , not burst like plasma. The justicar upgrade is fine but the model should get the special even if you go ranged.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Atlas » Mon 31 Oct, 2016 4:37 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:On the GK/OM changes (preliminary):

The most obvious change is also the most controversial one - Aegis now being a shield with the BC still having 1000hp. Why is that? Because Strike Squads now start with the Purify ability which can give the BC engery back to his shield. Double Strike Squads now also have their Psycannons back which I will still have to dive in deeper but it means they are not as useless anymore come T2. Add to that they now only cost 400 req instead of 450.
Crewfinity has mentioned the combination of Aegis + 2 SS with Purify is not hard to beat. Well I totally disagree. You are giving a unsupressable commander a shield and 2 of his heavy infantry follow up units the possibility to replenish his shield (the cooldown is also very low). Add to that the 50 red global. All in all, I'd call that a lot of T1 pressure potential.

To be continued...

P.S: +1 to everything Ace said


In playtesting, the Aegis shield has actually been pretty bad so far. (and Mantle too, but different gear here)

Even if you poured in ALL those resources into the BC that you have mentioned, AND popped a power sword enhanced WatH prefectly so that all of your hp/shield was under its effect (so basically, an absolutely perfect scenario), you would still end up with roughly 1,700 effective hp. Compared to a Force Commander with just an Iron Halo is already in the realm of 1,300 hp. Throw in the Artificer Armor and you get roughly 1,600 effective hp without even considering hp regen.

If the suppression immunity is the main sticking point, CL can STILL do this better. 1,500 hp just from the Halo, and 1,650 with the Harness + its hp regen.

Similar "Face is My Shield" styles of play are arguably putting up better tanks for cheaper, not needing red or the requirement of buying a second main combat squad. BC is already going to get a hp nerf as it is, and a better shield in exchange. The combination on paper sounds good, but in practice is pretty lackluster. You still are relying on the hp regen on Aegis, which shouldn't even be there :P

Look, I'll just be blunt on this. I started my rebuttal with "in playtesting" because that's important. Sure, I wrote up a bunch of numbers afterwards. But that's because I'm trying to explain why something I saw in game is just not that good. We can argue all day from just reading the changelog but good balance comes from practice. For every "why?" I can just say "why not?" otherwise.

The most convincing argument you can make is based off of experience with the change. I understand, I really do. The 2.6 test has bugs in it and it really sucks. Still, it's better than nothing imo. Give it a shot.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Cyris » Mon 31 Oct, 2016 4:56 pm

Super quick: I think the OM changes are wonderful. Are they balanced yet? Nope. But OM have suffered from extreme neglect. 6 months of 2.5 was a tragically bad patch for them. I want to see some mix ups and refocusing. The numbers will be off, but that's why we have a beta. I roundly reject this "OM is a failed experiment" meme. They are a work in progress that progress moved too slowly for. The iteration on that has been good, but too few steps. This next step looks exciting, and Atlas is being very forward with his goals and thoughts.
Atlas

Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Atlas » Mon 31 Oct, 2016 11:01 pm

No, I don't want people to lay off or anything. The crux of my previous post was to try and encourage people to give the 2.6 test patch a game or two and come back with thoughts instead of going on pure theorycraft. Theorycraft is ok to engage in at first, but the rubber needs to hit the road at some point. I just used the Aegis explanation as an example of an adjustment based off of what I saw in the game, followed by my own attempts to explain WHY it turned out like that and what is being done to fix it.

Fr33man1800 wrote:A lot of good stuff.


- I didn't put in any OM Term changes in the first changelog because frankly I wasn't sure exactly how to change them. OM Terms atm and imo are purposely overpowered to help make up for the lack of other real options in T3. I tried to alleviate that by making Ints and LRC more viable in their own ways. Is it enough? Idk, but either way term retreat is going. I can get behind that. I have some proposals in the background right now and I'm bouncing them off of people to see what they say. So far, the verdict is that it's pretty tough. There's no real consensus. Either way, I'll be putting something in for OM T3 when the bug-fixed version of 2.6 comes out. Look forward to it.

- PDread being at 38 range makes little sense when your basic Hurricane bolter outranges it and has a far more regular firing pattern which doesn't leave it as exposed for when you need to plant the PDread to get the shot off. If we wanted the PDread to be an artillery piece, as it was intended imo, then it needs to have the range to back it up. Right now, the cooldown reduction has made it ridiculous and that's getting reverted, but I think it's the general right direction for the unit. Some tweaks here and there and I think it'll be fine.

- As I mentioned with my post to Noobus, currently both BC armors are actually severely underperforming. I already talked about Aegis there so I'll talk Mantle here. The problem with Mantle is not that it's a bad wargear per se, but that the BC doesn't have any good abilities in T1 to really make use of. You get the super-gimped Lash and WatH. Arguably, you could say the sword is better if you want to abuse WatH as well. It either needs to go to T2 and get subsequently adjusted to accommodate, or it needs to become more useful in T1. Atm, I have my revisions with the latter option. I can talk more about the general direction of the BC stuff if you want in a separate post, so I'll leave it at that.

- I'm not really sure how to address IST sarg in the sense that you are talking about. I think this is more of a comment about Ops than anything?

- [Properly humbled by both Free and Black Relic on this one. Strikes do have a 360 special and it's getting nerfed.]

I think having Purify accessible in T1 should stay however. I can entertain the idea of it being behind and upgrade ala Battle Equipment or other sorts of upgrades. And yes, I can definitely look into Purify cooldown. It is fairly short as you have mentioned. Still, I want energy transfer to be a central theme of OM play. I think it's a unique idea that brings a good distinctive feel to the faction.

Really, my only major disagreement here is that "OM is a mix of CSM/SM". In what way do they have much to do with CSM? Their compositions are extremely different imo and I would argue that they are more of a mix of Eldar/SM with an emphasis on ability use from Eldar combined with being tougher like SM.

- For reference here:

CSM Melee DPS (without EW) : 22 dps
Strike Melee DPS : 23.08 dps

I think you might have gotten the wrong number from somewhere, because atm both Strikes and CSM have basically the same melee damage (arguably CSM deal more with EW if you count it). So Strikes in 2.6 is roughly equal or worse than both CSM and TSM in melee/ranged damage, with only the melee special and Purify being boons. I removed the incinerator due to it overlapping too much with Purgs, but I can definitely consider bringing it back.

[Corrected by Free and Black]. Strikes are basically OM's only T1 unit you can ask to fight an encroaching melee squad without getting utterly rekted. Even then, you can argue that even in 2.5 they still get rekted. Losing their melee special would make OM entirely incompetent at facing melee without just severely outplaying the opponent.

The only issue I can see, which might be what you are trying to raise, is their ability to fight ranged squads in melee and dominate. To that end, I hope that the ranged damage nerf helps to even out that matchup as it basically forces the Strikes to engage in melee, instead of just beating you both ways.

I can definitely consider Nemesis Focus back in T2. In fact, this idea has already been brought up in some form or another both by me and to me. It would have to be exclusive to the Psycannon stuff though, but that's obvious. Still, the biggest concern is how much it overlaps with Purifiers. Why buy 65 power Purifiers when an upgrade on Strikes will basically do the same thing and with arguably a better ability in Energy Burst vs Psychic Field?

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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Black Relic » Tue 01 Nov, 2016 4:34 am

Atlas wrote:- I don't really know what "crazy special" you are talking about here. It's the same special as basically any sword-wielding SM model.


The Strike Squad model actually has a 360 special attack. Which is why it nearly kills a whole sluggas squad and they instant retreat in t1. Which should have been changed by now tbh.

But as for the nemesis focus upgrade i would rather that be in t1. However it does NOT give a charge until t2. What it does is increase melee skill by 1 (reduce base SS melee skill by 1 the justicar stays at 70 though) and increases range and melee damage by 15%. For 65/15 Pretty much what eternal war does for Chaos but it is tailored to OM.

I want the base melee skill reduced so the OM early t1 doesn't have a squad that can sometimes go toe to toe with a melee dedicated squad in t1 and come out on top. IMO that should never happen without some extra investment.

Now give the incinerator back (with a cost reduction to 75/15 and a build time of 20-25 seconds) to the squad and remove the psybolt ammunition.
"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54
Atlas

Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Atlas » Tue 01 Nov, 2016 5:05 am

Free and Black Relic have both correctly humbled me on the Strike special. Well, that's getting nerfed. Still, I don't see a problem with Strikes having a special in general. I'll look more closely at all these angle, knockback and damage values on these specials then. Might be a way to make Purifiers more relevant as well.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Psycho » Tue 01 Nov, 2016 10:00 pm

Alright, apparently whining with multiple one-liners that didn't discuss in depth the issues and possible alternatives didn't do much, which is absolutely shocking to me, so I'll go in depth with one or two things.

Dire Avengers

This unit has been all over the place for me, but altering its base stats won't do much due to the inherent issue that it's a combat-capable ranged unit that is given to the player at the start for absolutely free. The other races who get free ranged units at the start get scouts, IST, and guardsmen, and as they are they just don't stand a chance against a dire avenger squad.

One idea I've had that'd do well to give a balancing alternative to the dire avengers is chopping their initial performance and restore it with an upgrade, following the same concept as guardsmen: IE the starting unit itself is weak, but with an upgrade it can get stronger to its intended stats, and since the unit itself is given for free at the start, the upgrade would also cause a 'cost' to the starting squad requiring the upgrade, since for guardsmen you get a squad worth 210 req for free, but you don't get the required upgrade for free, causing that starting unit to not be so free. The other starting ranged squads follow a similar 'get upgrades to be useful' idea like scouts (sergeant gives another model worth of dps + die last), ISTs (upgrade gives bonus damage + die last), and guardsmen (+~10dps and die last model + one free reinforce model). The player would also be left with the choice of leaving his units unupgraded for other things such as capping, or even a cheap repair unit should the others end up wiped and need replacement without much care for the combat ability.

The main disagreement I have with the current idea behind the hp reduction is that I believe it'd be best to lower its dps instead. To what value, that's up to discussion, I was thinking 7dps per model to match up with shootas as a basic idea but shootas aren't even a starting free squad, so looking at ISTs who are and have a 6.4dps, I'm guessing a dps between 6 and 7 would do the trick. The hp value should remain unchanged.

Another problem is that piling this all up with the Battle Equipment upgrade would en up with two possible results: Either the upgrade gives way too many things (FoF, nades, energy shield, now the +10%HP or bonus DPS if my idea goes through) for a measly 15 power, or it gets so expensive that you end up with the binary choice of keeping them half-useless like unupgraded GMs, or having to save up a ton of power to upgrade them, with nothing inbetween. A solution to this problem would be to go for two possible upgrade paths like banshees have, giving the player the choice of a cheap power upgrade for what he needs at the time, rather than having to buy the entire thing even though some abilities he may not need. An idea would be splitting the Battle Equipment into two upgrades, one defensive/utility that'd give FoF and Energy Shield, and the other offensive, giving nades and the dps boost. I don't imagine them being mutually exclusive like banshees, but anything can happen after enough testing, who knows.

TL;DR:

Dire avengers get a reduction in initial cost (down to 210 or so) with a reduction of dps per model (down to 6 or so), has the player use their resources to upgrade it back to shape rather than getting the whole thing for free at the start (seriously their tac dps is nuts, it's as if that one guy who suggested scouts getting tac dps due to using the same bolters getting what he wanted but for eldar instead)
Get defensive/support upgrade that grants FoF and Shield
Get offensive upgrade that grants grenades and dps boost back to normal
-Their price isn't my concern, I won't pretend to know a proper cost, but the main reason to divide them is so that one gets more ways to tinker with balance

Feel free to call me a retard and tell me why I'm wrong so that I can hopefully git gud instead of driving my head against a wall whenever I play against Eldar.

I'll see if I can collect my thoughts and formulate a post about banshees and the glitchfest of theirs in a bit

Also one little curiosity of mine, any chances of units like plasma devs and blastmasters getting an ability that is just a normal manually targeted shot? So as to avoid having to cancel the manual ground target order if you just want to shoot once rather than eternally. Actually now that I think of it it could fuck with the weapon cooldowns and stuff, so probably not.
Atlas

Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Atlas » Wed 02 Nov, 2016 4:13 am

In reverse order, just push S to stop your Pdev/Blastmasters from firing more and that should do it.

I think you're on the right track with DA even if I really disagree with the fixes. DA should be less potent out of the gate, but amazing with upgrades. Eldar should be like that in general, and patch iterations have really transitioned that out. It's a shame imo.

I would just bring it back tbh - you can keep it 270 fine. But gate a good chunk of hp behind the Aspect of Avenger upgrade again. This leaves the DA train a lot slower and more inhibitive to 3 DA strats when you have to add more and more resources to them to get to where they are now.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby appiah4 » Wed 02 Nov, 2016 10:25 am

Is this the build where the action now is? Should I install and play or wait for official release?
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Wed 02 Nov, 2016 12:48 pm

Psycho wrote:I was thinking 7dps per model

You are taking away from their ranged damage because....? Eldar were always very strong when it came to weaponry but at the same time very fragile. If you reduce their ranged dps, how will they even win engagements in T1 any longer or at least be able to stand up to certain other ranged units? The comparison with Guardsmen or IST is also misleading since you are comparing them in a vacuum. Guardsmen can hide behind their Sentinel which does not bleed at all and ISTs are not the main combat unit of OM (that would be Strike Squads which far outclass DAs). DAs may have almost the ranged dps of a Tac squad for less requisition but they also bleed a lot faster and thus drop their dps a lot faster. If you take a unit out of the roster and only look at that unit vs some unit x then yes, you might find inequalities but those are most likely per design and reasonable.
Also, splitting up their upgrades into more upgrades doesn't really fit the Eldar economy at all. Eldar already have to invest quite a lot of power to keep up in army strength and thus map presence so further introduction of upgrades only slows down their overall tech.
Let me also stop you from writing a post about Banshees. I can't really see why so many people hate them. Banshees are often the single reason why an Eldar player will lose a game because of the bleed inflicted by losing the Exarch over and over and over again. They are such a double-edged sword really. If you micro them correctly, yes, you can obtain some awesome results with them but that is ok like that because then you are also rewarded for your micro and tactical forsight (flanking, getting into retreat path, etc.). They are most certainly not an a-move unit alá click-and-win. Just play Eldar vs either Orks, SM, IG or Chaos and you will know what pain and bleed is.

My opinion on the matter of DAs is still: Revert them to a T2-Exarch state (the cause for all the trouble) and make Rangers great again (pre-Caeltos redesign). That would definitely solve a lot of the issues and solve the detection problem for Eldar.
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Re: Elite Mod 2.6(Test Version) Changelog and Feedback Thread

Postby Psycho » Wed 02 Nov, 2016 1:41 pm

Beh.

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Let me also stop you from writing a post about Banshees. I can't really see why so many people hate them.


Am I that one-dimensional that you'd predict what I'd talk about regarding banshees? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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