Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

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Shroom
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Shroom » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 10:09 pm

ok so here's how creeping barrage works

IG buys a chimera, you buy a set up team for AV.
You set up your set up team.
Ig uses creeping barrage on your set up team, facing towards himself.
Now you're left with the choice of A. press x, or B. let your setup team be knocked forwards into his army.
If you press x then you lose, if you don't press x then you lose because you will then have nothing to damage the chimera.
If you fight then you'll just bleed models, if you don't fight then the ig will take the map/bash your power.
It can't be compared in any way to foot of gork, or pdevs, or lmao apo vials.
If the ork has a vehicle then he won't have a weird boy.
Comparing it to other units like pdevs is pretty hilarious, but if the sm has a vehicle then he won't have a pdev squad.
Additionally other KB abilities will typically give your lascannon a chance to resetup, rather than knock it too far back to be of use, or knock it into the ig army.
Lastly its about timing. You say that other units have "better" (lul not really) disruption abilities, but that they're tied to a unit purchase. You frame it as not a big deal, only it is. Units have req/power and build time costs, whereas creeping barrage is free in those regards. For some reason dow2 players either never learned or forgot what timing pushes were, something that's pretty important in rts games.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Shroom » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 10:15 pm

oh and it can't be compared to vials because vials is a grenade that you have to get your apo(squishy support hero) close to the enemy army to use. you telegraph its use from 10 miles away. he will just get focused down and even if he manages to throw his nade it will be dodged. it's only good for deterring melee squads
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Fri 25 Dec, 2020 10:35 pm

Vials isn't used against IG because it requires him to get close to a ranged army. It's mainly used for anti-garrison or against melee squads. Combo it from a knockback like from shotguns so it'll hit.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Maromar » Sat 26 Dec, 2020 1:52 am

Shroom wrote:ok so here's how creeping barrage works

IG buys a chimera, you buy a set up team for AV.
You set up your set up team.
Ig uses creeping barrage on your set up team, facing towards himself.
Now you're left with the choice of A. press x, or B. let your setup team be knocked forwards into his army.
If you press x then you lose, if you don't press x then you lose because you will then have nothing to damage the chimera.
If you fight then you'll just bleed models, if you don't fight then the ig will take the map/bash your power.
It can't be compared in any way to foot of gork, or pdevs, or lmao apo vials.
If the ork has a vehicle then he won't have a weird boy.
Comparing it to other units like pdevs is pretty hilarious, but if the sm has a vehicle then he won't have a pdev squad.
Additionally other KB abilities will typically give your lascannon a chance to resetup, rather than knock it too far back to be of use, or knock it into the ig army.
Lastly its about timing. You say that other units have "better" (lul not really) disruption abilities, but that they're tied to a unit purchase. You frame it as not a big deal, only it is. Units have req/power and build time costs, whereas creeping barrage is free in those regards. For some reason dow2 players either never learned or forgot what timing pushes were, something that's pretty important in rts games.


If if if if, geez.

The fact that your argument requires an Imperial Japanese Navy level of "just as planned" to hold merit is very telling.

AV options exist outside of set up teams, you know? You can bait abilities, divert units, split your army if the ig is massing behind a chimera and use so many more big brain pro gamer moves to not be stuck in that kind of situation, you know? For some people that claim to be so much better than me that it precludes all need for a logical argument, you two really aren't putting much thought into anything.

Creeping barrage costs 200 red which isn't a resource you're recouping as quickly as req or power, unless you're murderizing your enemy. It may not cost hard resources, but it isn't "free" by any means. You frame red economy as not a big deal "only it is".

Other KB abilities will indeed give setup teams a chance to get back up, if there isn't followup (which there usually is, let's not pretend here) which benefit greatly from the damage already done, and threaten a wipe if they don't retreat. Not all of them are even tied to unit purchases. In the case of another global that doesn't even provide KB, noxious cloud will force ig setup teams away and alone offers more catastrophic results under the right conditions. This is why I said they weren't being directly compared. It's all asymmetrical.

The difference between creeping barrage and pdevs/FoG/'nade heritics and any other unit tied KB is that they will continue to use their disruptive abilities thoroughout the game. Creeping barrage already occurs less often and takes resources away from the LG's leman russ call in and bunkers if the game is close enough, he's forced to make a decision. Just like any other choice of wargear or red use or skill throw in the game. Adding additional cd time on top of that may widen the gap in the ability's usefulness to much if it isn't done without raising creeping barradge's effectiveness.

And you keep saying these abilities can't be compared, but that's literally how you balance a game. Is the interaction between one parties tools and another giving one side an unfair advantage/making for frustrating games? If so, how can they be altered in a way that leaves them competitive? That's the core question. You have to look at the game holistically. Like the recent change in hormagaunt speed that was reverted iirc.

Come on. :|

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Vials isn't used against IG because it requires him to get close to a ranged army. It's mainly used for anti-garrison or against melee squads. Combo it from a knockback like from shotguns so it'll hit.


The situation might be different for higher skill ratings then. IG has a lot of high model low hp squishy stuff to die in droves to vials, the same reason doom bolts and destructor are so effective against their infantry squads. An early vial investment can cause an ungodly amount of bleed even when the target isn't garrisoned. It's also not as though the apoc is charging through no-man's land without help or disruption it's a high risk high reward play.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Shroom » Sat 26 Dec, 2020 3:37 am

I didn't just pull those ifs out of my ass, I pulled them from my experiences of playing vs top level ig players in this game. Its just how the ***timings*** work. IG typically hits tier 2 first, you see the chimera, you build a lascannon cuz you need AV right that instance and you don't have the time to wait for the resources for plague marines, or a dreadnaught, or insert more expensive av option here, and you don't have the spare resources to waste on bad AV like tac missiles because you're about to get bashed. Barrage makes the most cost effective AV options in the game useless in a way that other abilities and other globals don't.

And again, stop comparing units to globals. Units cost requisition, power, and build time, and need to be in position to use their attacks/abilities. Globals(most of them anyways) cost nothing in terms of req and power, and can be used on a whim providing you have enough red.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Sat 26 Dec, 2020 4:27 am

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Vials isn't used against IG because it requires him to get close to a ranged army. It's mainly used for anti-garrison or against melee squads. Combo it from a knockback like from shotguns so it'll hit.


The situation might be different for higher skill ratings then. IG has a lot of high model low hp squishy stuff to die in droves to vials, the same reason doom bolts and destructor are so effective against their infantry squads. An early vial investment can cause an ungodly amount of bleed even when the target isn't garrisoned. It's also not as though the apoc is charging through no-man's land without help or disruption it's a high risk high reward play.


Doombolts and Destructor are long range abilities while Vials is a short range ability. The Apo has low health, a heal that does more for squads than single units and a regen aura that only affects his army and not himself. If you bring him forward you're exposing him and your enemy focus fires because if the Apo is forced to retreat the SM army loses its sustain. Vials has no knockback so you can easily walk out of it, which is why you need to knock them into it. You can tell an Apo has Vials by the grenade icon indicator and you can tell he's going to use it by looking at his energy bar go down.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby PianoMan » Sat 26 Dec, 2020 8:14 am

Maromar, it's not "if" it happens always because that's how IG is designed, it's not just as planned, it's either do this or lose the game
vials have 1 use and that is to prevent units from exiting chimera
pdevs are a unit that traps your economy in t2 where you eventually lose because you decided to miss all your powerspikes to buy a stationary unit that only helps if you play super passive, which nobody good does except indrid's 3v3ers
"Creeping barrage already occurs less often and takes resources away from the LG's leman russ call in and bunkers if the game is close enough" too lazy to quote but w/e, you saying this proves you have absolutely zero idea how IG works once again, nobody uses bunkers or leman russ calls in games where players have above 50 iq because these abilities have their uses long after the IG player has hit his timings, leman russ calls are incredibly niche and if you haven't ended the game as IG before that point you've probably lost anyway and bunkers are overrated garbage used by noobs that afk in the middle of 3v3 maps
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby PianoMan » Sat 26 Dec, 2020 8:19 am

also try to notice that literally everyone so far disagrees with you, might be a reason behind that one, even a former balance lead lol
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Maromar » Sat 26 Dec, 2020 2:03 pm

PianoMan wrote:Maromar, it's not "if" it happens always because that's how IG is designed, it's not just as planned, it's either do this or lose the game
vials have 1 use and that is to prevent units from exiting chimera
pdevs are a unit that traps your economy in t2 where you eventually lose because you decided to miss all your powerspikes to buy a stationary unit that only helps if you play super passive, which nobody good does except indrid's 3v3ers
"Creeping barrage already occurs less often and takes resources away from the LG's leman russ call in and bunkers if the game is close enough" too lazy to quote but w/e, you saying this proves you have absolutely zero idea how IG works once again, nobody uses bunkers or leman russ calls in games where players have above 50 iq because these abilities have their uses long after the IG player has hit his timings, leman russ calls are incredibly niche and if you haven't ended the game as IG before that point you've probably lost anyway and bunkers are overrated garbage used by noobs that afk in the middle of 3v3 maps


It is "if", the ig was indeed designed for mass gunlines with reinforcement support, but there was also assumptions of the barrage hitting and the exact unit composition of the other side, and that the other side isn't putting map pressure elsewhere, allowing the ig to fight exactly where it wants to with a binary outcome for a game in which the number of moves available are rather vast. That doesn't sound very >50 iq, to be honest.

You speak like someone who doesn't understand how a timing attack works, or your trying to blow the effectiveness of creeping barrage out of proportion to justify the cd increase. Of course it remains effective beyond the optimal timing, so do several other units and abilities. The concept of a timing attack revolves around using a tool in a window where it'll be most effective/the opponent has the least amount of tools to answer it.

If your argument is that bunkers are overrated garbage, you don't have an argument at all, hardly evidence to me not knowing how the ig works. And even in such a case, that would make the barrage cd increase threaten to over nerf the LG if he already has a useless global.

Wipe the salt off your keyboard.


Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Doombolts and Destructor are long range abilities while Vials is a short range ability. The Apo has low health, a heal that does more for squads than single units and a regen aura that only affects his army and not himself. If you bring him forward you're exposing him and your enemy focus fires because if the Apo is forced to retreat the SM army loses its sustain. Vials has no knockback so you can easily walk out of it, which is why you need to knock them into it. You can tell an Apo has Vials by the grenade icon indicator and you can tell he's going to use it by looking at his energy bar go down.


Yes, I'm aware. Hence high risk, high reward. I've seen it happen in my games often enough, but like I said, it's likely diffrent at higher skill levels. I was highlighting the ability's damage potential against fragile mass units.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby PianoMan » Sat 26 Dec, 2020 2:20 pm

I have 74% winrate on IG yet I do not know how the race works, weird.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby PianoMan » Sat 26 Dec, 2020 2:23 pm

also the way you described the race works end with you losing the game by having your economy crumble to nothingness by sacrificing models like a complete noob, you don't even understand how the economy works in this game lol
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Maromar » Sat 26 Dec, 2020 2:29 pm

PianoMan wrote:also the way you described the race works end with you losing the game by having your economy crumble to nothingness by sacrificing models like a complete noob, you don't even understand how the economy works in this game lol


That result also lies in an assumption and doesn't even take into account the options for indirectly dealing with mass infantry.

Even for direct options, 2 guardian 2 shuriken resists creeping barrage in fixed position battles.

Never said you didn't know how the race works, and I've already told you that I don't consider your win rate to be a deciding factor in a discussion regarding whether or not adding 30 seconds to creeping barrage's cooldown is an overnerf. You're just retreading ground at this point and putting words in my mouth. Don't find it strange if I don't hold what you say in high regard.

Creeping barrage isn't the instant win button you're making it look like.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby OceansAteAlaska » Sat 26 Dec, 2020 2:35 pm

but winrate matters when discussing these things lol or are you telling me someone with 30%< winrate knows a race as well as someone with over 70% wr lmao. You're literally just saying "no i dont consider valid reasons and arguments why someone would know this race better than me."
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby PianoMan » Sat 26 Dec, 2020 2:37 pm

Winrate with a certain strategy shows how effective it is, if you feel that your way is so much better, why don't we just play-test it?
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Maromar » Sat 26 Dec, 2020 2:40 pm

OceansAteAlaska wrote:but winrate matters when discussing these things lol or are you telling me someone with 30%< winrate knows a race as well as someone with over 70% wr lmao. You're literally just saying "no i dont consider valid reasons and arguments why someone would know this race better than me."


Not when discussing the reasons behind a change or strat. It matters some, but isn't an end all be all. At best your winrate just means you're good at the game, it shouldn't be taken as an argument in itself. Again, I didn't say I knew the race better than anyone, I was posing my opinion on the change in creeping barrage's cooldown with additional observations.

PianoMan wrote:Winrate with a certain strategy shows how effective it is, if you feel that your way is so much better, why don't we just play-test it?


The skill level of the player behind the strat needs to be taken into account as well. And I didn't pose any "way" over another. Where are you even coming from at this point.

Creeping barrage. Cooldowns. That is the point of discussion.

If the esl stats are current, ig has a 46% winrate while the strongest race in the rankings at the moment (nids) is at 56%. Nerfing creeping barrage might sink that winrate even lower. I could understand if LG was winning every game on the abuse of creeping barrage alone, but I'm not seeing that.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby OceansAteAlaska » Sat 26 Dec, 2020 2:48 pm

your argument relies on some very odd theoretic gameplay. Piano is offering to test out your argument in practice, why dont you take that chance and show him that you are correct.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Maromar » Sat 26 Dec, 2020 2:51 pm

OceansAteAlaska wrote:your argument relies on some very odd theoretic gameplay. Piano is offering to test out your argument in practice, why dont you take that chance and show him that you are correct.


Test out what? There was no detailed strategy I posed. And even if I had one, Piano is already biased towards a viewpoint and couldn't be part of any legitimate study if we were going to put that kind of investment into all this. Global win ratios is also how most competitive games are balanced with an additional eye for cheese and gameplay flow. It's not odd.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Broodwich » Sat 26 Dec, 2020 9:28 pm

Cyris wrote:This thread is like watching anti-vaxxers argue with doctors.

Or like a balance lead suggesting inferno ravs
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby PianoMan » Sun 27 Dec, 2020 10:35 am

Broodwich wrote:
Cyris wrote:This thread is like watching anti-vaxxers argue with doctors.

Or like a balance lead suggesting inferno ravs

why not? definitely wouldn't be worse than half the changes we had last patch
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Fri 01 Jan, 2021 12:00 pm

Somebody equated Vials to Creeping Barage:

Image

On a more serious note:
Vials can not be compared to a Creeping Barage for reasons which have been mentioned before (squishy hero, not intended as ranged counter, etc.).

The scenario that Shroom described regarding Chimera + CB is pretty much what high level (even above beginner level) IG play looks like. It has been across all patches that I have seen and that are quite a few. That is a solid indicator that this is no mere "If, if, if" scenario but pretty much set-in-stone IG meta.

On a more general note:
Why not use a seperate thread to discuss this topic? This is the hotfix release thread.

EDIT:

To add to the Vials vs Creeping Barage idea - you can focus fire the Apo, you can't focus fire Creeping Barage. Single greatest difference when it comes to available counters that come to mind.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Torpid » Fri 01 Jan, 2021 4:48 pm

There's also a 20 second tell when the apo starts walking over to your blob whereas creeping basilisk barrage can hit an entire army spread out in a line instantly with 0 tell and 0 counterplay when timed correctly. When you compare vials to CBB, I assume you're a troll...
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Asmon » Fri 01 Jan, 2021 5:36 pm

Just use AoD! Instant counterplay! Then retaliate with the SM equivalent of creeping barrage, ie vials! 100% success guaranteed!
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Broodwich » Fri 01 Jan, 2021 6:38 pm

Torpid wrote:There's also a 20 second tell when the apo starts walking over to your blob whereas creeping basilisk barrage can hit an entire army spread out in a line instantly with 0 tell and 0 counterplay when timed correctly. When you compare vials to CBB, I assume you're a troll...

Well he did get 2 pages of rage on a dead forum, i'd call that pretty successful
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby LOCALgHOST » Sun 03 Jan, 2021 3:34 pm

Asmon wrote:Just use AoD! Instant counterplay! Then retaliate with the SM equivalent of creeping barrage, ie vials! 100% success guaranteed!


i do it every day. works fine :)
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby Maromar » Sun 03 Jan, 2021 9:33 pm

That's the thing though, I didn't equate the two, and it was one of several skills mentioned. I compared the ability's effectiveness and field presence, particularly against the guard, when someone brought up that vials weren't all that effective I conceded that maybe it's different for higher skill levels. I'm not nearly as unga bunga as your making it sound.

And all of that was just background for my original question. Is the cooldown increase on creeping barrage necessary? Guard is already tied with SM for the lowest winrate in ESL. That doesn't usually translate into a nerf in most competitive games unless it's part of an exploit or egregious cheese.

As for the hypothetical, I wasn't arguing that it doesn't happen, the chimera anchored play is what the guard is good at. I was griping about the binary decision of fight and lose vs run and still lose that was presented, as if the guard is unbeatable.
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Re: Patch 2.9.5.1 Hotfix Released !

Postby PianoMan » Tue 05 Jan, 2021 12:47 pm

Maromar wrote:That's the thing though, I didn't equate the two, and it was one of several skills mentioned. I compared the ability's effectiveness and field presence, particularly against the guard, when someone brought up that vials weren't all that effective I conceded that maybe it's different for higher skill levels. I'm not nearly as unga bunga as your making it sound.

And all of that was just background for my original question. Is the cooldown increase on creeping barrage necessary? Guard is already tied with SM for the lowest winrate in ESL. That doesn't usually translate into a nerf in most competitive games unless it's part of an exploit or egregious cheese.

As for the hypothetical, I wasn't arguing that it doesn't happen, the chimera anchored play is what the guard is good at. I was griping about the binary decision of fight and lose vs run and still lose that was presented, as if the guard is unbeatable.

do you even play the game

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