Unit Guides

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egewithin
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Unit Guides

Postby egewithin » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 6:26 pm

I used to write guides how to use each unit in Dawn of War wiki. Then they didn't like those and edited mostly by 246 users.

http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Retribution/A ... d/Strategy

This is how it generally looks. Is it possible to add a strategy button on codex for each unit? I mean, I can help about this thing. So we can finially get rid off explaining a new player how a units works for tons of posts. Insted, we just give them this link and it is done! What do you think about it?
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby The Licking Boogyman » Mon 01 Aug, 2016 8:54 pm

well i was hoping for such a thing, i mean i bet even mid players could learn something from it like combos and whatever, instead of telling it over and over or watch every cast ever, when you want a direct information source. :)
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Mon 01 Aug, 2016 9:13 pm

What about discovering some things for yourself? Every single bit of neccessary information is out there. Just try stuff out yourself.
In theory your idea sounds like a good but what immediately pops into my mind is: everybody will learn to play this game the same way, making for a very boring community. I like the fact that every single player has his own unique playstyle and way of going about engagements.
Take for example Adila and Riku. Both know very well how to play as Eldar (although Riku is no Eldar main at all but it works for SM as well if you want to) but their playstyle is completely different because they utilize units in an entirely different way. This can only arise from trial-and-error games and analyzing what you did and why you did it. Combine that information with the Codex (which most new players are too lazy to read) and you will progress very fast in this game and develop your own playstyle.
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby egewithin » Tue 02 Aug, 2016 6:42 am

We will write just how do they work. There are players that doesn't know what are Dark Reapers are. Also, this teach will grealty decrease the noobness in our community.
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby Soberson » Tue 02 Aug, 2016 8:16 am

Adeptus Noobus wrote:What about discovering some things for yourself? Every single bit of neccessary information is out there. Just try stuff out yourself.


Scrap entire education system then! That will make tons of unique and extremely ignorant individiuals. I know that's your style to waltz into threads dropping "get gud" here and there but there is a difference between spoonfeeding and providing information you know? Figuring out your own mistakes is also not quite easy especially for a new player who struggles even with basic notions. After all what separates "a solid player" from "a master" is how well do they execute fundamental plays - and this is exactly what firatwithin wants us to cover
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby fe_ » Tue 02 Aug, 2016 4:05 pm

I agree with Tarre on this one.There are a lot of hidden things in this game and as long as it's exciting to discover them on your own it just slows down progression of new players. Just some general tips for each unit can greatly help with that (don't fight melee dreadnought with genestealers, banshees are not so great in Eldar vs IG MU, you can use scouts as a counter to set-up teams and so on)
Adeptus Noobus wrote:In theory your idea sounds like a good but what immediately pops into my mind is: everybody will learn to play this game the same way

Honestly, this sounds like "new people should get rekt before they earn the right to be good".
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Tue 02 Aug, 2016 4:18 pm

Way to go on the hostility. I simply uttered my opinion. If you disagree, you are free to rebut but do so in a well-mannered fashion.
I did not imply "git gut" but to read the Codex as it contains all the units' stats and abilities. Then go and try the unit in a match. Since you completely grased over my main point I will rephrase: Firats opinion on what unit X should/can do might be different from what others think it should/can/is supposed to do. This is only natural as we each have more or less different playstyles and thus utilize units differently. Look at the discussion about Scouts for example. I see people use them mainly as infiltrated initiation unit, as purely defensive counter-initiation and also as part of a very aggressive ranged blob. Now should we include all possibilities in that post for Scouts or is there only one possibility? THAT is what I had in mind. If you show players only a limited range of things you can do with unit X then this is all they will learn. If on the other hand you give them the information contained in the Codex, they will eventually develop an understanding themselves that might even be different from yours or mine (albeit for some units there isn't much wiggle room).

P.S: Having a different oppinion on this topic or disagreeing with you two is not akin to implying "git gud" but there is a reason why Wise Windu urges us to read the Codex first in his signature.
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby Tinibombini » Tue 02 Aug, 2016 4:30 pm

Tarre wrote:
Adeptus Noobus wrote:What about discovering some things for yourself? Every single bit of neccessary information is out there. Just try stuff out yourself.


Scrap entire education system then! That will make tons of unique and extremely ignorant individiuals. I know that's your style to waltz into threads dropping "get gud" here and there but there is a difference between spoonfeeding and providing information you know? Figuring out your own mistakes is also not quite easy especially for a new player who struggles even with basic notions. After all what separates "a solid player" from "a master" is how well do they execute fundamental plays - and this is exactly what firatwithin wants us to cover


Did you actually read the ASM article that Firat linked in the OP before you decided to jump down Noobus' throat and write this hyperbole? It contains information that is either: (1) just taken from the codex stats (ASM have heavy armor, ASM have a jump ability, ASM have melta bombs that snare vehicles, ASM sergeant gives a power sword) reproduced in another section; or (2) really vague information ("Apothecary players will typically get one ASM, while FC and TM players might or might not, depending on the matchup." Oh really? Depending on the matchup, well that's helpful....).

If that is the content that is going to be linked to the codex, I don't think it really adds anything to the codex itself. Players who "don't know what Dark Reapers are", don't use the codex anyway b/c the answer is right there. Not seeing how adding another tab in a webpage that they already don't use will help.

The idea might have some merit, but the example provided does not provide any information that isn't already in the codex.
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Tue 02 Aug, 2016 4:42 pm

Ok, now that I have actually read it more carefully, I agree with Tini. It barely offers extra information that could not be inferred from reading the Codex itself. In addition it shows exactly what I have been talking about the entire time. Firats oppinion on how ASM and when ASM should be used differs not only between the players but is also dependant on the matchup. Let me give you an example. The T1 IG roster is mainly range oriented which would imply that ASM work wonders vs IG. Well if you are up against the LG that might be the case but as Freeman has taught me in many painful matches, the LC and Inq will counter ASM so hard that you will lose the game just because of the bleed they will cause you. Now here comes the fun part: while the Inq will troll ASM hard, I had a discussion with Ace of Swords once wo said that, and I quote "if you know how to approach the mu, ASM are fine". There is just so much room for interpretation and individuality that it is very difficult to say that unit x should be doing that and it should not be doing that. You say TM almost never gets ASM, I almost always get them in certain mus as TM.
That is why I say: read up first, realize what this information actually means and then apply in matches. "Dark Reapers deal Inferno dmg at great range, hmmm, lets see how they will do against double Tacs. If I always stay behind shields at maximum range, I should definitely win ranged fights." That is ideally what people will take away from reading the Codex.

EDIT:
I will give you yet another example. In the video below, Torpid showcases a replay between him and Dark Riku. He will get double Devs with Libby support to beat Rikus LA Nids with a Zoanthrope. Now everybody will tell you that Riku clearly has the upper hand but watch how Torpid explains why his build worked so well against Riku despite Riku having all the right units to combat setup teams.

Last edited by Adeptus Noobus on Tue 02 Aug, 2016 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby Cyris » Tue 02 Aug, 2016 4:50 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Way to go on the hostility. I simply uttered my opinion. If you disagree, you are free to rebut but do so in a well-mannered fashion.

I hope this is polite enough:

I think you are being a buzzkill curmudgeon for no reason. Someone basically said "I used to preform this community service, should I do it again?" and your response boils down to "helping people is bad". You are entitled to that opinion of course, but geez is it unnecessarily negative.

Which all surprises me. I have a rather high opinion of you Noobus. I understand and appreciate that figuring things out on your own leads to deep understanding, but there are many paths to understanding. What value is added by telling people on a different path to give up before they start? I gained a lot of my knowledge, skill and enjoyment of DoW2 by reading things people better then me wrote. I take these things, compare them to my own experiences, and iterate from there.

DoW2 is an incredibly overly complicated game with edge cases and special knowledge required all over the place. Sharing information makes us all better. Unit guides would be greatly appreciated. Whoever wants to start writing, do so. If it's good work, and people like it, I'm confident we'll find places to put it.
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Tue 02 Aug, 2016 4:54 pm

I am not saying it should not be done, Cyris. I am trying to say that the way Firat has envisioned it right now bears the risk of what I have mentioned before. If you are to write such a strategy guide then it should reflect multiple points of views, that is all I am saying.
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby fe_ » Tue 02 Aug, 2016 4:55 pm

Codex can be completely overwhelming for a new player (source - me the new player). I spend hours reading stuff before my first game, and still didn't learn much. Each faction have a dozen of units and a couple of wargears for each - it takes a lot of time to learn them all. I spend more than 300hrs in multiplayer and still don't know a lot of stuff.
One simple tyranid guide from Floid (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2160) was my bread and butter in my first 50 games or so. Getting something like this for all factions would be great. This is what new players need, not a load of sterile codex information.
As for playstyles, yes they can differ. But you start develop your own after a lot of games, not in your first dozen. Showing a limited range of things you can do with unit X is better than showing nothing, excluding a bunch of stats and numbers in the codex.
Don't get me wrong, I love the codex.
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Tue 02 Aug, 2016 4:58 pm

Fair point.
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby Cyris » Tue 02 Aug, 2016 5:00 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:I am not saying it should not be done, Cyris. I am trying to say that the way Firat has envisioned it right now bears the risk of what I have mentioned before. If you are to write such a strategy guide then it should reflect multiple points of views, that is all I am saying.


I acknowledge that this point was encapsulated inside your post Noobus. I also believe that you presented it in a dismissive, oppositional way.

In short, where you could have said: "Cool idea, go for it, watch out for overly promoting cookie cutter builds" it came out as "don't waste your time, kid".


So I'll say it again: firatwithin - Go for it man. Do it, it's a great idea. I'm confident that if you do start writing, that many people on the forums, and likely Noobus first of all, will help with tips, edits and insight.
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Tue 02 Aug, 2016 5:06 pm

Point taken as well. That is basically what I was trying to say 8-)
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby egewithin » Tue 02 Aug, 2016 8:12 pm

Okay, I can help about it. But here is an edit; I didn't read the ASM guide before too. There were several guides for CSM, SM, and IG in that wiki. I wrote ASM before but someone edited it later on. It looks nice but as you mentioned, it doesn't add something.

I may come up with a small example later on.
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 3:19 am

I agree with Tini, lots of vague analyses made that really don't improve anyone's understanding of how DOW2 strategy works.

If you are writing a guide you want to be very specific and even include math when possible. If you make a statement like "ASM have the least synergy with TM" you have to go on to explain exactly why that is. You could also explain why some TMs frequently get ASM in spite of this. Without these specifics you may as well not bother.

EDIT - Here is a chart of the most common damage types against the non-building armours of the game that I sometimes use as a reference. Might come in handy for some people.

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Re: Unit Guides

Postby egewithin » Wed 03 Aug, 2016 8:13 am

Okay, here is a demo guide. Tell me if it contains too much info (spoon feeding), too long to read, not helpful enough or it contains info that already knows.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CHANGES IN ELITE MOD

-Bloodletter damage type changed from heavy mele to power melee
-Reduced Bloodletter Hellblade damage from 50 to 45
-Bloodletter cost decreased from 440/40 to 400/40
-Bloodletter upkeep decreased from 10,2 to 7,7
-Population cost decreased from 4 (16 total) to 3 (12 total)
-Warp Shift should now make Bloodletters invulnerable despite debuff effects
-Thier charge is removed. Insted, they jump / warp into combat in very small distaces.

Bloodletters are a jump troop of Chaos Space Marines. Mostly useful for countering ranged troops without melee protection. Jumping units are made for tie up ranged squads without melee capacity, and run away in case of a melee thread. Unlike other jumping units in game, Bloodletters can perform amazing against other melee focused units with the right moves. Their high power melee damage is scary for heavy infantry melee squads (eg ;Purifys, Assault Squad) and super heavy infantry armoued single targets (eg ; Avatar, Tyrant Guard) Bloodletter can not be suppressed.

However, their low health makes them addicted to Heretic worships and makes them requare high micro and pay more attention to them. Thier charge is removed and changed with jumping into combat. They are less good for chasing down units in Elite mod for balance reasons.

HOW DOES BEING A DEAMONIC WORKS?

That means you get some benefits under Heretic worships. Bloodletters have +10 hp per second per model which is super fast recovery, 1,5 energy generation per second which is what we need for their abilitys and bonus benefits for each worship type. Under Khorne worship; Bloodletters increased speed is useful for both charging in and charging out. Under Nurgle worship, they have 13,5 health regeneration per model and that makes them super tanky in a fight, grants an amazingly fast recovery which will be pointed on in this guide. Under Tzeentch worship; they are infiltrated, very handy for making a supize jump on or can be used for falling back with safety. Also they have 20% ranged damage resistance under Tzeentch worship.

Worship is the key play of Bloodletter as we speak. Bloodletter are handy but very very fragile. Their low health and no armor makes them addicted to worship. Under worship, they can recover their lost health and get back their energy needed. Worship is a good fallback point for Bloodletters, with these benefits, they can stay in a conflict for a long time with getting in and out of worship. Worship should be used before Bloodletters loose a model. Worshipping your Heretics in the middle of a fight might sound odd in the first place, but it is much worse for your enemy to deal with.

WARP / JUMP

As we speak, Bloodletters main purpose is to jump into ranged blobs without melee protection. Primary targets are of cource set up teams at this point. Even without their power melee benefit, they are still a big threat for light infantrys like Dire Avengers and Shoota Boyz. Tzeentch worship of Sorcerer is the best tool for ambushes, giving no warning of Bloodletters to enemy. Here is a warning for you, never make a blind jump with any jump units. Unlike other jump troops, Warp is not handy for getting out of combat in most situations. Warp has a small time gap between the casting moment and teleporting. This time gap may cause loosing models or loosing the whole squad even. Retreating or getting out with Wap Shift ability are much better options.

WARP SHIFT

Very handy ability for Bloodletters. With Warp Shift; Bloodletter doesn't take any damage, no knockback, no capping, no attack. Not being able to do anything may not sound good for combat. Here is the usage of it, Warp Shift is a small step back --> recover --> get back to fight tool if combined with Heretic worship. Must be used before loosing a model. Even if there are no Worship around, you can basicly use it to get out of melee fights and fall back without loosing a model. Warp Shift also can be used for taking all the ranged damage while walking through the enemy lines as being a primary target while your army walks behind of them.

Sadly, Warp Shift can't be used right after the Warp ability at level 1. Ater hitting level 2, Bloodletters are much easyer to use. You can now just get out of danger right after your jump.
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby egewithin » Thu 04 Aug, 2016 10:22 pm

WARRIOR BROOD

Warrior Brood are a pretty handy unit for Tyranid army. They are a pretty common unit in Tyranid players list thanks to their synapse potentials and versitality.

WARRIOR BROOD SYNAPSES

BASIC SYNAPSE
Before we talk about their fighting capacity, we should focus on synapse. Warrior Brood are a need for Tyranid army if you think about it. Tyranids without synapse support will loose pretty much all conflicts. To win fights in T1 and a big part of T2, Warriors are a no-brainier unit to buy. Warriors basic synapse is a big win for you. Decreases incoming ranged and melee damage by 20% for smaller Tyranids, and grants a small suppression resistance. With all these benefits, they are back bone for your army.

However; for Hive Tyrant, Warriors are not a must. It emits the same synapse from the beggining and can get even a better one later on. By the way, same synapses more than 1 will not stack together. Still you can stuck together basic synapse and melee synapse for example, but getting 2 Warrior Broods will not change the result. Anyway, Warriors are generally used for their Barbed Strangler or their melee synapse in T2 for Hive Tyrant players.

MELEE SYNAPSE
Adrenal Glands upgrade will turn your Warriors into a melee monster both for them selfs and their melee troops around them. Melee synapse can be used by only Hormogaunts, non-Devourer Raveners and Genestealers. So don't expect anything from Termigants. It increases surronding melee Tyranids health by 40% and increases melee skill. Melee skill increase might not be seen on Hormogounts but it is dealy effective on Raveners and Genestealers. It doesn't give any damage buff to other little Tyranids however. Melee synapse supported Tyranids can suprize you with their performance. Specially for Genestealers.

Warrios are aslo getting a reverse synapse with tihs upgrade; the mroe units around that benefits from this synapse, they are getting more health and more damage.

WARRIOR BROOD FIGHTING CATACITY

Warriors heavy infantry armor and big health pool is a big win for start. Still, since they are low model squad, any anti-armor threat can take down Warrior models in very short time, causing synapse backlash. They become really tanky and threatful with their Adrenal Glands upgrade. Increased health, increased heavy melee damage are beatiful. And you can add reverse synapse to these benefits list.

Warrios are very effective for ranged heavy infantry swuads like Tactical Marines or Purgation squad. They are doing power melee damage and they leap into combat, and that makes a big difference. Even pretty decive ofr a fair melee fight.

BARBED STRANGLER

A very good ranged weapon. Very effective if you are up against a ranged army. Basicially shuts them down instanly. Keeps Warriors safe at behind and you can still benefit from their synapse. Also, it counters units insade of buildings, behind of covers.
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby egewithin » Tue 09 Aug, 2016 11:19 pm

Still waiting for feedback. If there will be a strategy place on Codex, I will continue. It is not possible to use these guides on forum to use for noobs.
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby Wise Windu » Wed 10 Aug, 2016 4:24 am

Something like unit guides in the Codex would be cool. It's been brought up before, but ended up not happening: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=717&p=20354#p20354
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby egewithin » Wed 10 Aug, 2016 9:04 pm

NOTE : This guide is not yet complite, just writing these to edit later on, I want to see how it will look like.

And I would like to see your help an Nurge anf Tzeentch worship guides.

HERETICS

Heretics are the starting squad of Chaos army. They are the back bone of Chaos, they are supporters and protectors of Chaos Marines. Their commanders (you) prefers to use them as meat shields.

As we said, Heretics are the back bone of Chaos army. Without their worship and self sacrife protection, Chaos army is all about slow moving high damage expensive heavy infantry without any defence. That is why Heretics are important. Heretics may not be doing as much damage as Chaos Marines, but their support is what Marines need.

If you loose your Heretics in an early conflict, don't be afraid to replace them. They are extreamly cheap currently. Totally woth to spend.

WORSHIP

Heretic worships are the key play on Chaos. Every Chaos hero has a different worship ability on their own Heretics. Their benefits are all written in '' abilitys ''.

Khorne Worship : This speed increase is useful if you want to charge in with melee or charge out to safety. Khorne worship is specially important for Chaos Lord him self. Since he is a slow moving hero, worship helps him to charge into enemy lines, extreamly important if you want to counter set up teams with him. Khorne worships is also useful if you want to get out of base fast, or run as fast as you can to a location.

Side Tip : When the game first starts, use Khorne Worship and send your Chaos Lord to a contested point as quick as you can. After he is out of worship range, send your Heretics to cap something else. A quick Chaos Lord arrivel at a contested point will suprize any kind of starting squad and force them off from there.

Nurgle :

Tzeentch :

MELEE HERETICS
Melee Heretics are not the best weapon aroun with them selfs. They act more like an anti-melee squad. They should be used with their Doomblast to keep enemy melee squad away from rest of the army, and force them off with incoming fire support. Heretics have a health issue in their vanillia state however.

Their health is too low for dealwing with melee squads. Worse, they can loose to durable ranged squads like Tactical Marines or Strike Squad too. That is why Aspiring Champion is an important choice. Champion increases their health, and he is a pretty good melee unit too. Now Heretics are much better for dealing with melee squads.

RANGED HERETICS

SHRINES
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby The Licking Boogyman » Thu 11 Aug, 2016 3:03 pm

but also i think, it should be possible if there is gonna be a strategy page for the codex that all ppl can throw in some tips and tricks, everyone has different experiences and everyone used them maybe on a way no one ever did before, so everyone can share there experiences and stuff. but its just a suggestion.
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby egewithin » Thu 11 Aug, 2016 7:49 pm

The Licking Boogyman wrote:but also i think, it should be possible if there is gonna be a strategy page for the codex that all ppl can throw in some tips and tricks, everyone has different experiences and everyone used them maybe on a way no one ever did before, so everyone can share there experiences and stuff. but its just a suggestion.


You are right, for example; Tyranid guide should be done by Floid, Hiveminion and Ace. Ace did a real good job at faction war and I think he deserved to have a point.
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby Aetherion » Fri 12 Aug, 2016 12:02 pm

The Licking Boogyman wrote:but also i think, it should be possible if there is gonna be a strategy page for the codex that all ppl can throw in some tips and tricks, everyone has different experiences and everyone used them maybe on a way no one ever did before, so everyone can share there experiences and stuff. but its just a suggestion.


Isn't that what the strategy section of the forum is for?
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Re: Unit Guides

Postby Aetherion » Fri 12 Aug, 2016 12:17 pm

Firat, I think this is a great idea and I'd like to help if possible. Although we are missing a medium to convey it both properly and conveniently at the same time (which at times can be conflicting aims). One of the ways I've seen work (for me at least) is like that of 1d4chan tactics.

E.g. https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,0 ... lequins(7E)#Elite

A general description with relevant stats and abilities. How to use these attributes are tacked on via bulletpoints with other users being able to contribute by opening a new bulletpoint and tagging what they say as an opinion rather than given fact. From there, newer players should try out the various ways based on either the facts or the tried approach of others.
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