Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Forestradio
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Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Forestradio » Mon 19 May, 2014 2:21 pm

The GK libby's smite is a bit too good right now. To discover why, I'm afraid we'll have to do some math.

Here's the combo: casting "Shrouding" on the libby himself, use "Purge" on the unit you want to blast, then "Smite" them.

The numbers: Smite does 18 plasma damage per bolt, and casts 4 bolts. Shrouding amplifies this to 18*1.25 or 22.5 damage per bolt. Using the modifiers from plasma damage (1.5 vs SHI/HI and 0.7 vs infantry) we get the following numbers per bolt:
vs SHI/HI: 22.5*1.5=33.75
vs infantry: 22.5*0.7= 15.75
Then apply the "Purge" debuff, which increases damage taken by 30 percent:
vs SHI/HI: 33.75*1.3=43.875
vs infantry: 15.75*1.3=20.475

Finally, multiply by four to calculate the damage received from the total smite, not just one bolt. This ends up being 81.9 damage to infantry per model and 175.5 damage to (S)HI per model. If you want even more damage, you can cast mind blades on the libby right before he smites as well, for another 20 percent damage buff, but I'm too lazy to calculate that.

This will instantly wipe heretics without an AC. This will instantly wipe dark reapers without their exarch. There is probably some other squad that I am forgetting about that this also will wipe. It does batshit damage to infantry. It's completely broken. And, since "Purge" does not reveal the GK libby when he casts it (due to some bug that I posted in the Bugs/Issues thread somewhere) you can do this completely out of infiltration and your opponent has no time to react.

forestradio suggests:
Make "Shrouding" no longer castable on single entities (Brother Captain, Vindicare Assassin, Terminator Librarian)
Reduce "Purge" damage debuff effect from 30 percent to 20 percent.

Now there are definitely some drawbacks to the GK libby, namely slow movement speed and a lack of filling an AV role. Might of Titan is also a pretty bad ability atm, but this is getting changed in a big positive way for the next patch. It's only fair I think that this smite cheese combo gets toned down.
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Torpid » Mon 19 May, 2014 3:03 pm

With the vindi being able to infiltrate himself next patch I think having shroud no longer affect single-entities is a great idea.
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Ace of Swords » Mon 19 May, 2014 3:11 pm

I think it shouldn't infiltrate at all, and actually give a clear indication of the buffed unit.
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Raffa » Mon 19 May, 2014 4:03 pm

I have tried this combo, and have a few things to say about it.

Firstly I am pretty sure the damage doesn't spike that high. How the buffs/debuffs work in this game has confused me from the start (what order they go in, what stacks with what or is mutually exclusive, etc..) even as someone who did A-level maths ;) It's the same as Lictor Alpha with Lone Hunter, Corrosive Claws, Capillary Tower and Stalk applied - work it out the wrong way and it looks like he could be deleting ridiculous stuff with every hit.

So would very much appreciate it if someone knowledgeable could enlighten me on this.

It has been so long since I used this though I honestly can't remember off the top of my head what it looks like ingame. Will test it later this week when I'm back (or could someone make a YT clip and link it? :P)

As for Shroud not affecting Single Entities, please keep it as it is. Have been waiting for a while for, if you invest enough in the Libby and Vindicare, to get the spike potential on the sniper shots. At the very least this needs to be tested to see if it's even viable to get both these units to put all your eggs in one basket with this combo, which I'm skeptical about already.
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Broodwich » Mon 19 May, 2014 5:22 pm

Shroud doesn't necessarily need to give damage buff. Could be another effect like decreased received damage, faster movement, increased energy regen, health regen, etc

But really you can put fte and battle cry on normal Libby and get similar results
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Torpid » Mon 19 May, 2014 5:47 pm

Decreased ranged damage received might be an alternative to the damage buff and that would still synergise well with the VA.

This combo is much stronger than FTE+battlecry, except where you get 5 or so battlecry buffs off and it doesn't cost red in every engagement. If you want to you could add mind blades to the shroud+purge already though.
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Raffa » Mon 19 May, 2014 6:20 pm

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Decreased ranged damage received might be an alternative to the damage buff and that would still synergise well with the VA.


Actually it wouldn't - the Vindicare either takes barely any damage and can back off, or enough to force him off/kill him. Making the damage reduction % high enough to make it worth it on the Vindicare and be balanced for all other units is practically impossible.
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Mon 19 May, 2014 8:33 pm

In fact, Shroud give 20% ranged damage resistance if the squad is partially revealed.

Give +speed to Shroud in combination with We are the Hammer! would turn Purifiers into Howling Banshees. Not mention if is used on GK Paladins/Terminators.

Give +damage resistance to Shroud in combination with We are the Hammer! and/or Warding Staff Ward ability would made the squads resist an insane amount of damage. (except if you make Shroud don't stack with other Damage resistance abilities)

Change the damage buff by a health regeneration buff is an interesting idea.
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Torpid » Mon 19 May, 2014 9:01 pm

Not sure I agree with that. He doesn't die as soon as he gets shot at . An extra second before he dies would always be useful and you have to remember this ranged damage stacks with the infiltration, I think 20% would be fine and I'm not sure it would be particularly overpowered considering it doesn't affect melee damage taken and how shitty GK units are in ranged.

There is always a concern regarding purifiers alongside ward, but in that case you've got quite a req heavy build without much AV so I don't think that would be very OP, especially since puris still won't be slaughtering melee squads.

P.S I know that shroud currently grants 20% ranged resistance when the squad is partially revealed.
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Tex » Mon 19 May, 2014 10:23 pm

After reading the first post I was more or less saying to myself, "If you can do all that while not dropping micro and end up successfully wiping a squad, good on ya bro!"

It honestly doesn't bother me too much just yet that GK have a few OP toys. Do you know how long the sm libby has been able to decimate shit with smite + buffs? I have been subject to that form of "abuse" in many games, but have still ended up winning. In fact, kami routinely wipes my heretic squads with FTE + BC + smite when we play. I simply view it as a bit of a distraction where somebody focuses so much energy and attention on doing a super move that wipes a squad maybe once every 20 or 30 tries?

Anyway, think what you will, its just something that doesn't bother me too much just yet.
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Raffa » Mon 19 May, 2014 10:42 pm

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Not sure I agree with that. He doesn't die as soon as he gets shot at . An extra second before he dies would always be useful and you have to remember this ranged damage stacks with the infiltration, I think 20% would be fine and I'm not sure it would be particularly overpowered considering it doesn't affect melee damage taken and how shitty GK units are in ranged.


I know lol that's not what I said. I said when he takes ranged damage it's either a puny amount as he kites away at range, or he has to retreat/die. A small extra damage resistance (on top of the survivability granted by infiltration alone) is not worth it for me on the ultimate glasscannon unit.

Tex wrote:It honestly doesn't bother me too much just yet that GK have a few OP toys. Do you know how long the sm libby has been able to decimate shit with smite + buffs? I have been subject to that form of "abuse" in many games, but have still ended up winning. In fact, kami routinely wipes my heretic squads with FTE + BC + smite when we play. I simply view it as a bit of a distraction where somebody focuses so much energy and attention on doing a super move that wipes a squad maybe once every 20 or 30 tries?


+1.

Every race has some combos that can be made potentially bullshit, and GK less than any. Kommando kb out of infiltration into Roks? You have about half a second to retreat as soon as you see the Roks before Luv da Dakka hits and then your army is toast.

Haywire grenade on a vehicle into Eldritch Storm? I see this so often and there is no way to survive if the Eldar player does this properly. Or even Assail into Rocket Run. He either stays still and takes rockets to the face, or retreats and gets rockets up his ass. Granted these are nukes, but still could be called bullshit.

And yeah the FC battlecry + FTE on Smite is really strong too. Is it fair? I think so, just about. I will try this combo with Libby this weekend but I don't expect to change mah opinion.
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Forestradio » Tue 20 May, 2014 1:17 am

Raffa wrote:Firstly I am pretty sure the damage doesn't spike that high.


Trust me, it does. I have wiped heretics with it. I have wiped dark reapers with it.

Broodwich wrote:Shroud doesn't necessarily need to give damage buff.


Yes it does. If it gave health regen or some other buff it wouldn't be worth getting at all.

Tex wrote:It honestly doesn't bother me too much just yet that GK have a few OP toys.


It bothers me though, and quite a bit. I don't like feeling that I have to spam IST in t1 (at least 2-3 squads) and then try and coast with a shitty t2 into my incinerator terminators that delete everything they touch in order to stand a chance.

Tex wrote:its just something that doesn't bother me too much just yet.


That's cuz the GK libby is criminally underused because everyone and their dog seems to only buy the VA these days.
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Tex » Tue 20 May, 2014 3:20 am

Well, in my view its a compositional issue of not buying the GK libby. When I see somebody purchase him, its basically my cue to build more vehicles. I already love forcing the issue against GK by building vehicles, so this only encourages me further.
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 20 May, 2014 2:30 pm

FTE is a global that costs 50 red and is only available to the FC. The GK libby does all of it himself without a red cost. Let's buff the smite of the libby again then if it ain't op to wipe squads that way....
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Sub_Zero » Tue 20 May, 2014 5:24 pm

Yup, it is either overlooked or double standards all the way!
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Bahamut » Tue 20 May, 2014 5:27 pm

Tex wrote:It honestly doesn't bother me too much just yet that GK have a few OP toys.


What in the fucking fuck?

Yeah, fuck balance because this is a balance mod and balance is overrated. And let's look down on Riku for talking like a pedant spoiled 10 years old, but let's respect the guy that doesnt mind OP stuff as long as it is on the races he likes

No wonder orks aren't getting balanced... but god forbid SG and VG can keep their levels
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Sub_Zero » Tue 20 May, 2014 5:33 pm

Yeah, it surprised me too. The general idea is to balance everything, even out everything. And not to have some weak things and unfairly strong ones that kind of compensate weaknesses (the so called OP toys).
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Forestradio » Tue 20 May, 2014 11:46 pm

Sub_Zero wrote:Yup, it is either overlooked or double standards all the way!


There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the GK libby having a better smite than the SM one with his buffs/debuffs, the two units fulfill completely different roles in completely different armies.

Just because both abilities are "Smite" doesn't change this.

Nonetheless, the GK libby's smite is still too good atm, especially it can be done out of infiltration which makes it impossible to notice unless you have a detector around.
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Torpid » Wed 21 May, 2014 1:30 am

^

Again, we have to stop being such dumbasses and look at things more holistically.

They're both librarians, they're both able to do the smite ability. However they aren't the same unit and they're not in the same army. The GK libby provides a lot more anti-melee support than the SM libby does. The SM libby is far better at providing AV and generally supporting the SM blob. This all synergises with the way both race's work. The libby doesn't need to be awesome vs infantry becuase he owns vehicles on a race that is already very strong vs vehicles (the VoT lasdevs + melta bomb from asm is so damn strong). GK lack AV as it is and all their AV options are req-heavy so to ask for them to get the VA and the GK libby is a lot and still doesn't provide enough AV to counter a walker on its own.

I'de prefer it if shroud didn't grant the damage buff though nevertheless.
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Ace of Swords » Wed 21 May, 2014 2:27 am

The SM libby is far better at providing AV and generally supporting the SM blob.


It's funny, because you are simply plain wrong in the face of the abilities they have.


Wrath of titan helps the melee gk blob and it's an AoE ability.

Purge can be used on vehicles and that says it all.

Infiltration which buffs by 20% damage can be used on all infantry uncluding the one with AV capabilities.



On the other hand the sm libby has no blob helping ablities with everything he does beign relegated to be casted on single target(friendly), except smite obviously, and with a pretty big energy cost and fairly long CD on all his abilities, making them definately not spammable.

With only the force barrier having a really niche use relegated to the map and positioning which could help the afromentioned sm blob.


but then again this is not a thread about the sm libby, it's about the GK one.
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Torpid » Wed 21 May, 2014 2:31 am

Ok, I concur, I worded that incorrectly. The GK libby does provide good AV potential innately, just as good as that of the SM libby, the difference is that the GK libby is far more costly given the GK eco than the SM libby is and then the complementary AV that each libby buffs is similarly more expensive for GK than SM and then SM has the transitional AV on top of that.
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby HandSome SoddiNg » Wed 21 May, 2014 11:37 am

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Ok, I concur, I worded that incorrectly. The GK libby does provide good AV potential innately, just as good as that of the SM libby, the difference is that the GK libby is far more costly given the GK eco than the SM libby is and then the complementary AV that each libby buffs is similarly more expensive for GK than SM and then SM has the transitional AV on top of that.


TL seems like he retreats slower then SM lib to me,that Purge/inspire/Cloak combo on Purifiers/Termies/Gki w MB vs Melee squads KCSM/GSB/VG,etc rips em apart . Most of his abilities are just debuffs & support ,he can't port units out of danger except conceal em. He does make VA/Psycannon purgators more effective AV ,guy's still Underrated to GK players ,they just spam terminators come t3..
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby HandSome SoddiNg » Wed 21 May, 2014 11:38 am

Bahamut wrote:
Tex wrote:It honestly doesn't bother me too much just yet that GK have a few OP toys.


What in the fucking fuck?

Yeah, fuck balance because this is a balance mod and balance is overrated. And let's look down on Riku for talking like a pedant spoiled 10 years old, but let's respect the guy that doesnt mind OP stuff as long as it is on the races he likes

No wonder orks aren't getting balanced... but god forbid SG and VG can keep their levels



I feel your pain, Orkz are ridiculous, its just Gk T3 too strong for their complaints.
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Forestradio » Wed 21 May, 2014 2:56 pm

To clarify:

Might of Titan is an absolutely awful ability at the moment, it's a paltry 15 percent damage buff and is simply not worth it atm, unless you are in a 3v3 with two terminators and want whatever they hit to die immediately. You have way better buffs that you can use. Thankfully, this is getting changed in the next patch to a melee skill boost (90 melee skill purifiers with mind blades, yes please) and additional damage reduction.

HandSome SoddiNg wrote:guy's still Underrated to GK players ,they just spam terminators come t3..


:roll:
If only other races could spam t3 units


Ace of Swords wrote:Infiltration which buffs by 20% damage


25 percent :ugeek:
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Raffa » Wed 21 May, 2014 6:45 pm

HandSome SoddiNg wrote:guy's still Underrated to GK players ,they just spam terminators come t3..


I don't find Libby crappy at all and I main GK, although Might of Titan is useless. And sorry, but if GK is spamming terminators:

If he is getting normal terminators, you buy a walker/tank. He has scissors, you get rock. Simple. If he is getting Paladins (and almost certainly a weapon upgrade if he does), he is paying almost super unit cost so you should suffer if you haven't bought the right counters. If he is spamming terminators at a faster rate than you can counter them, that is your fault for not keeping up in the tech or investing your resources poorly.

Now personally I'd like GK to get a T3 option that isn't Terminators or a Land Raider (another Assassin in the works? Dreadknight?) but that's beside the point.
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Bahamut » Wed 21 May, 2014 8:34 pm

What handsome meant was that people tend to underestimate the Tlibby and just spam termies in t3
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Tex » Thu 22 May, 2014 12:24 am

Bahamut wrote:
Tex wrote:It honestly doesn't bother me too much just yet that GK have a few OP toys.


What in the fucking fuck?

Yeah, fuck balance because this is a balance mod and balance is overrated. And let's look down on Riku for talking like a pedant spoiled 10 years old, but let's respect the guy that doesnt mind OP stuff as long as it is on the races he likes

No wonder orks aren't getting balanced... but god forbid SG and VG can keep their levels

Name one race that has absolutely nothing considered "OP".

Every race has their niche and has the things they can do well and things they lack in.

I don't mind the GK libby doing what he does because in the grand scheme of things, even though its a potentially powerful combo, I will gladly dare you to try it on me. Until it becomes something that can be churned out of your micro-management factory and consistently be the reason games are won, I will consider it to be something "considered OP" instead of something that is in reality, "OP".

Now I know you love to hate on me constantly, and I'm okay with that. But blaming me for orkz "not being balanced" is absurd. Have you noticed what I've been playing lately? PC, FC, LC and a touch of eldar.

Nice try.
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Dark Riku » Thu 22 May, 2014 12:41 am

Space Marines.

The smite combo is easily done, requires minimal micro.
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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Caeltos » Thu 22 May, 2014 1:10 am

Tex wrote:
Bahamut wrote:
Tex wrote:It honestly doesn't bother me too much just yet that GK have a few OP toys.


What in the fucking fuck?

Yeah, fuck balance because this is a balance mod and balance is overrated. And let's look down on Riku for talking like a pedant spoiled 10 years old, but let's respect the guy that doesnt mind OP stuff as long as it is on the races he likes

No wonder orks aren't getting balanced... but god forbid SG and VG can keep their levels

Name one race that has absolutely nothing considered "OP".

Every race has their niche and has the things they can do well and things they lack in.

I don't mind the GK libby doing what he does because in the grand scheme of things, even though its a potentially powerful combo, I will gladly dare you to try it on me. Until it becomes something that can be churned out of your micro-management factory and consistently be the reason games are won, I will consider it to be something "considered OP" instead of something that is in reality, "OP".

Now I know you love to hate on me constantly, and I'm okay with that. But blaming me for orkz "not being balanced" is absurd. Have you noticed what I've been playing lately? PC, FC, LC and a touch of eldar.

Nice try.


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Re: Grey Knight Librarian's Smite

Postby Bahamut » Thu 22 May, 2014 1:57 am

As riku said, space marines have absolutely nothing OP, some people brand relay beacon as OP from the TM, but that's 1 skill in only 1 game mode of 1 hero that belongs to the SM race. But can't be trully accounted to SM

Orks are the only race IMO that is still inherently OP regardless of what game mode or hero you play. I think the reason why they have stayed like that is because there's no one really exploiting them atm, just like the LA that stayed hidden until riku started abusing him. Tho i have to say i've noticed you having double standards with orks, for some reason weirdboy being broken is "fine"

"hating on you" makes no sense. I respect you as a player, you're on the top 5 players left in this game. I've watch docens of your replays and i have learned tons from them, but you're human and sometimes you say things on par with the guy that said ogryns should have vehicle armor.

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